Do schools keep track of "production"?

[redhotchiligochu]

Wuzzup. It's been, idk, a year since I've been on SDN?

Super-random question popped in my mind while studying for oral path.... Once you get into clinic as a D3 (or D2 or whatever, depending on the school), do admins keep track of how much $$$ a student produces? Could possibly explain from numerous threads why sketchy admin can sabotage certain student's "requirements" and force them to do a D5 or even D6 year.

I know that pretty much all schools have requirements to fulfill before graduation e.g. 4 root canals, 1 implant, 3 indirect restorations, 2 RPD's, etc. The reason I ask is if admin can either favor or retaliate against students who bring in moolah vs students that do financially break-even work and I'd much prefer to be on admin's good side. Thanks!

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[PreDentTechySon]

You betcha they track production. Some do more with that information than others, but schools are looking at how much you’re bringing in. I’ve never heard of an instructor sabatoging students on their competencies or requirements. At least at my school they want people to succeed. I’m sure there are scenarios where people have dealt with a vindictive instructor or maybe the student put themselves in a hole with someone. I would say generally speaking if you work hard and stay on top of stuff you won’t have to worry.

 

[dPseh]

My school definitely tracked procedures (we got a print out of how mych we did of everything at the end of each quarter VS average of that given procedure for the class), not sure if they tracked the $$ associated with it though. Our school accepted a lot of Medicaid patients so we weren’t making much.

One of my good classmates actually had the clinical director say to her during a heated discussion, “You’re the lowest producing student in your class.” I’m sure he meant procedural wise and not monetary.

No need to worry about sabotage. That good classmate got accepted to and is currently in her ortho program at the same school.

 

[Advance]

Wuzzup. It's been, idk, a year since I've been on SDN?

Super-random question popped in my mind while studying for oral path.... Once you get into clinic as a D3 (or D2 or whatever, depending on the school), do admins keep track of how much $$$ a student produces? Could possibly explain from numerous threads why sketchy admin can sabotage certain student's "requirements" and force them to do a D5 or even D6 year.

I know that pretty much all schools have requirements to fulfill before graduation e.g. 4 root canals, 1 implant, 3 indirect restorations, 2 RPD's, etc. The reason I ask is if admin can either favor or retaliate against students who bring in moolah vs students that do financially break-even work and I'd much prefer to be on admin's good side. Thanks!

Well they do keep track. That’s how they know how many procedures you’ve done. But from what I’ve heard from the administration we pretty much break even on most procedures we do in the clinic. That’s how we’re able to keep prices low for the patients. I don’t think that plays a role into students not being able to graduate on time.

 

[Cold Front]

Students and residents performing dentistry within the school clinics are free dentists to schools. So at any given clinic day, the typical school is generating $100-200k worth of dentistry from their pre-clinics, perio, ortho, oral surgery, pros and Pedo clinics. You bet every penny counts and is tracked by the school.

 

[anonon]

They keep track at Columbia. If you don't see enough patients, you get "flagged" internally. Even if your patient doesn't show up and it's not your fault it still will count against you.

 

[2TH MVR]

Geez. How things have changed. I guess the high dental tuition is not enough. Students gotta produce .... Just like Corps.

 

[Cold Front]

Geez. How things have changed. I guess the high dental tuition is not enough. Students gotta produce .... Just like Corps.

Many forget that dental schools are run like (and majority are) private corporations. If you are the dean and his “cabinet” - your number 1 goal is - how do you keep more money flowing into the school?. My school even opened a brand new clinic in Dubai, to exclusively train post-grad residents in that wealthy country, with the same professors that taught my program and get whole new level of income stream from the patients they see. Harvard dental has recently helped graduate the first class of dentists in Rwanda! Most people here don’t know where Rwanda is, and probably heard the country through the movie “Hotel Rwanda” - an Oscar movie. Anyways... this is a business model that’s going global, just like the Mayo Clinic and University of Oxford of England have satellite campuses overseas. Education has been corporatized, and we will see the Tiger countries in Asia and the Oil nations in the Middle East simply bringing academic institutions to their citizens instead of sending their kids to foreign land - because now they have the money and the schools trying to look for new ways to make money from the education business.

 

[princeafrica]

Many forget that dental schools are run like (and majority are) private corporations. If you are the dean and his “cabinet” - your number 1 goal is - how do you keep more money flowing into the school?. My school even opened a brand new clinic in Dubai, to exclusively train post-grad residents in that wealthy country, with the same professors that taught my program and get whole new level of income stream from the patients they see. Harvard dental has recently helped graduate the first class of dentists in Rwanda! Most people here don’t know where Rwanda is, and probably heard the country through the movie “Hotel Rwanda” - an Oscar movie. Anyways... this is a business model that’s going global, just like the Mayo Clinic and University of Oxford of England have satellite campuses overseas. Education has been corporatized, and we will see the Tiger countries in Asia and the Oil nations in the Middle East simply bringing academic institutions to their citizens instead of sending their kids to foreign land - because now they have the money and the schools trying to look for new ways to make money from the education business.

I’m from Rwanda. I was really happy to hear this

 

[Likkriue]

Said it once, will say it again. Post graduate programs that force you to pay tuition are ridiculous. Pay the school 60-80 grand a year to work for them.
There is no other industry like this and I can’t believe dentists would advocate for this. Outrageous.

 

[sb.tnh]

Said it once, will say it again. Post graduate programs that force you to pay tuition are ridiculous. Pay the school 60-80 grand a year to work for them.
There is no other industry like this and I can’t believe dentists would advocate for this. Outrageous.

Well, you have to pay for most professional degrees like medicine, pharmacy, law, public health, even most master degrees... I agree the cost for dental degrees are significantly higher than that for others like medicine, in which private programs cost around $50k/year. PhD are the only post-grad degrees that do not require tuition, and you also get a stipend.

 

[Likkriue]

Well, you have to pay for most professional degrees like medicine, pharmacy, law, public health, even most master degrees... I agree the cost for dental degrees are significantly higher than that for others like medicine, in which private programs cost around $50k/year. PhD are the only post-grad degrees that do not require tuition, and you also get a stipend.

Doctors do not pay for post graduate training and neither do pharmacists.
The other degrees aren’t health degrees.

 

[Cold Front]

I’m from Rwanda. I was really happy to hear this

I’m from Somalia by birth.

 

[princeafrica]

Well, you have to pay for most professional degrees like medicine, pharmacy, law, public health, even most master degrees... I agree the cost for dental degrees are significantly higher than that for others like medicine, in which private programs cost around $50k/year. PhD are the only post-grad degrees that do not require tuition, and you also get a stipend.

You could be making your post grad clinic $500,000+ a year and yet they charge you $25,0oo+ per year.

 

[sb.tnh]

Doctors do not pay for post graduate training and neither do pharmacists.
The other degrees aren’t health degrees.

OK I thought you were taking about the pre-doc programs. My bad. Yeah then I agree, having to pay for the post-doc/specialty training is ridiculous.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

OK I thought you were taking about the pre-doc programs. My bad. Yeah then I agree, having to pay for the post-doc/specialty training is ridiculous.

With some of these dental specialty programs charging $80,000/year just in tuition, when you then add in living expenses and accrued interest on your loans, specializing may add $300,000+ to your total loan balance. So, going to a pricey dental school followed by a pricey residency may leave you $800,000 in the hole. Does that not scare anyone here? Anyone wonder why this guy’s always saying to go to the cheapest dental school possible?!

I like this quote from a specialty program director, “Our program will work toward a true paradigm shift that will make orthodontic care available not only to those that can afford it, but also to those with more meager means. Compassion, integrity, ability, and society’s healthcare needs are all words that move our orthodontic program every day. Action and not words alone will bring our goals to light.” So...they want to make orthodontics cheaper for everyone. This program then goes ahead and charges its residents $75,000/year in tuition, which does NOT include annual fees for supplies and equipment. Graduates of this program are likely to take on an additional $250,000+ in student loans beyond dental school. How are their graduates supposed to offer “affordable” orthodontic care when they need every nickel and dime to service their student loans?!

Higher Ed has officially become a joke. Seriously.

Big Hoss

 

[2TH MVR]

Gotta find those unicorn stipend paying residencies.

 

[schmoob]

Doctors do not pay for post graduate training and neither do pharmacists.
The other degrees aren’t health degrees.

You're absolutely right, because their PG Training is being funded by the government, not the hospital itself. We pay medical postgrad salary with our taxes.
There are not enough hospital based residencies in every dental specialty to meet public demand. So then answer is univeraity based programs. Who foots the bill for your training? The government isnt paying because it's not a hospital. The University has to pay all the expenses of having that specialty clinic, and dental school clinics dont make much money.

You could be making your post grad clinic $500,000+ a year and yet they charge you $25,0oo+ per year.

It may very well cost the school more than 500K to train you that year. Dental school clinics are not money-makers, not by a long shot. So if you're only paying $25K a year, i wouldn't call that being gouged.

I agree with Hoss on all counts. Go to the cheapest school possible, it's all the same degree. But I think it's important to understand why these programs are charging the way they are. And some people have their heart set on a particular specialty, and would rather be in more debt than miserable as a GP. That's why it's important to work hard in dental school so you can be more competitive for paid programs and start reaping financial rewards right after graduation.

 

[2TH MVR]

i'd be careful with this approach. these paying, hospital affiliated programs don't have as good of instructions for their residents as school-based programs. they literally expect you to work from day one. if you do go this route, be sure to do your due diligence by finding out what the program is REALLY like.

Debatable. But yes .... due diligence is important.
I have no way of knowing one way or the other. All I know is that I came out ahead cash positive after 2 years of residency. I consider that a huge WIN.
In a large city based hospital program ... I was exposed to many, many cleft palate patients and others with facial developmental issues. Sat on a craniofacial board along with the OMFS residents. Not sure I would have received the same exposure to these special types of patients and the treatment required in a school based program.
Most of the didactic classes were held at the nearby medical school.
Stated this before that most of your future "training" comes in practice. I learned the basics at DS and residency.
4 residents in my class. Not 10-20 like other school based and private programs. Just 4.

Yes .. I had a responsibility to see and treat the program director's medicaid patients.
Yes ... I was "technically" on call for any dental emergencies at the hospital. Think I answered one call in 2 yrs.
Benefits. Hospital housing and parking. Huge deal in large cities. More interaction with OMFS, GPR and medical students.

After 26 years of practice ... I consider the hospital based, stipend paying residency to be more than adequate.

 

[Beaux]

At NYU they have two tracks of requirements once you reach clinic in D3 and D4. One is procedural (or as we call it at the school, "MDRs"), that encompasses all our endo/prosth/perio/ whatever other silly competencies we are required to do.

The other, and this is the true kicker, is the money requirement. It used to be more blatantly obvious what the $$$ requirement is, but now they mask it behind something called the "CEE." This masking is all due to a scandal that happened years ago.

We have access to both our MDR and CEE report at all times once we hit clinic, so you know where you stand. However, depending on who your ultimate supervisor is, you may not really know where you stand in relation to others. People guard this information kind of like how they guard their examination grades or GPA. It's quite secretive.

You can make all your MDRs by graduation but not have enough CEEs. IF this is the case, then dean H will meet with your clinic director and 'discuss' your graduation status. NYU can and does regularly withhold people for not making enough money (CEEs) for the school, even if the MDRs are completed. This obviously puts an insane amount of stress on students, as our school also takes us out of clinic months (aggregate) at a time for rotation (free labor//assistants for the specialty clinics during our assigned clinic time) where we are NOT granted CEEs.

I haven't quite encountered another school system like this, but feel free to share if your dental school is/was like this too

This place may be teaching you about the 'real world,' but in the context of an education and best patient care, I find it inappropriate. I often wonder whether the school's interests are truly vested in the students or money money money.

 

[Advance]

At NYU they have two tracks of requirements once you reach clinic in D3 and D4. One is procedural (or as we call it at the school, "MDRs"), that encompasses all our endo/prosth/perio/ whatever other silly competencies we are required to do.

The other, and this is the true kicker, is the money requirement. It used to be more blatantly obvious what the $$$ requirement is, but now they mask it behind something called the "CEE." This masking is all due to a scandal that happened years ago.

We have access to both our MDR and CEE report at all times once we hit clinic, so you know where you stand. However, depending on who your ultimate supervisor is, you may not really know where you stand in relation to others. People guard this information kind of like how they guard their examination grades or GPA. It's quite secretive.

You can make all your MDRs by graduation but not have enough CEEs. IF this is the case, the dean H will meet with your clinic director and 'discuss' your application. NYU can and does regularly withhold people for not making enough money (CEEs) for the school, even if the MDRs are completed. This obviously puts an insane amount of stress on students, as our school also takes us out of clinic months (aggregate) at a time for rotation (free labor//assistants for the specialty clinics during our assigned clinic time) where we are NOT granted CEEs.

I haven't quite encountered another school system like this, but feel free to share if your dental school is/was like this too

This place may be teaching you about the 'real world,' but in the context of an education and best patient care, I find it inappropriate. I often wonder whether the school's interests are truly vested in the students or money money money.

So what are CEEs exactly? Is it a point system? Or literally how much money you’ve produced?

At my school we have RV points which basically reflects how productive you are in clinic. But you get RV points from doing everything. Assisting, procedures you do in the school clinic, and things you do at the off campus clinics. It’s measured by points per hour and there is a minimum amount of points you need to move from D3 to D4 and from D4 to graduation. As far as D3 is concerned if you get all your requirements done you get enough RVs to move to D4.
D4s require a higher number of RVs per hour to graduate but I haven’t heard of anyone being withheld from graduation because of RVs.

 

[Beaux]

So what are CEEs exactly? Is it a point system? Or literally how much money you’ve produced?

At my school we have RV points which basically reflects how productive you are in clinic. But you get RV points from doing everything. Assisting, procedures you do in the school clinic, and things you do at the off campus clinics. It’s measured by points per hour and there is a minimum amount of points you need to move from D3 to D4 and from D4 to graduation. As far as D3 is concerned if you get all your requirements done you get enough RVs to move to D4.
D4s require a higher number of RVs per hour to graduate but I haven’t heard of anyone being withheld from graduation because of RVs.

So your school makes it sound like RV points are tied to procedures and general attendance. It's great. It makes sure that students keep on top of their assigned rotations and graduation requirements. Our systems are linked, but not, at the same time.

CEEs are more like a straight up money requirement, although not all money generating procedures count towards your CEE total (most of the obvious things do, some do not, such as converting a complete denture to an overdenture, which carries MDR weight but zero CEE).

Even if you were to 100% fulfill your MDR (procedural/graduation) requirements which are already heavy at our school, you will NOT meet your CEE requirement at NYU. They want production. I once spoke to a Columbia student and almost laughed at how nice their lives sounded, so I know a lot of what NYU tells us is a 'New York state requirement' is more of a school-specific thing.

 

[Advance]

So your school makes it sound like RV points are tied to procedures and general attendance. It's great. It makes sure that students keep on top of their assigned rotations and graduation requirements. Our systems are linked, but not, at the same time.

CEEs are more like a straight up money requirement, although not all money generating procedures count towards your CEE total (most of the obvious things do, some do not, such as converting a complete denture to an overdenture, which carries MDR weight but zero CEE).

Even if you were to 100% fulfill your MDR (procedural/graduation) requirements which are already heavy at our school, you will NOT meet your CEE requirement at NYU. They want production. I once spoke to a Columbia student and almost laughed at how nice their lives sounded, so I know a lot of what NYU tells us is a 'New York state requirement' is more of a school-specific thing.

That’s actually disgusting. I’ve never heard of such a requirement before.

 

[hellopeople]

UDM has production requirements. I think most schools do. You can actually be held back for not meeting these numbers even if you've done well in competency assessments of each of the required skill sets. Keep those numbers up guys.