Do you do the next DL?

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Arch Guillotti

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Alright today I was working with a CRNA who is a pretty good guy, older, fairly experienced easy to get along with dude. So we put this LOL (little ol' lady) to sleep for some routine case. The pt. had an unremarkable airway exam, MP3, OA/TMD 3, FROM. Easy to ventilate. Nurse brandishes a Mac 4(!). Noodles around for a while before bailing out for a little more propofol and ventilation. Next he switches to a Miller 3, this time gooses it. Another bail out. He says she is "pretty anterior" even w/some pressure from me. Now the waters are muddied up a bit and the Miller 3 has blood on the end of it but she is still very easy to ventilate. There is a moderate amount of carnage to the lip.

Do you do the deed or do you think it should be three strikes and yer out?
 
As our attendings used to ask of us during residency , "what do you see?" . If he says he didnt see jack and you know hes a good laryngoscopist I would take my best blade take a look and see if I can get a tube/bougie down there. Since he didnt see anything with different blades, unless hes gonna do something dramatically different with positioning his views unlikely to improve, and I would take a look at this point. Part of the business is knowing when your best shot isnt working and changing plans (different laryngoscopist, different method, etc..) rather than stubbornly going at it and hoping to get lucky. If he saw something (arytenoids) and the tube just went in the esophagus, then I would let him DL again and suggest a bougie this time.
 
Miller 3? Mac 4? for an LOL? thats a called 3rd strike right there. Throw in the bloody airway and you're looking at a potential problem brewing. I'd take a look myself w/my best blade b/c the time for screwing around is over.

IMO, 3 strikes and your out only matters when the airway is still lookin good. Once the blood starts to flow, you gotta get the tube in ASAP
 
Alright today I was working with a CRNA who is a pretty good guy, older, fairly experienced easy to get along with dude. So we put this LOL (little ol' lady) to sleep for some routine case. The pt. had an unremarkable airway exam, MP3, OA/TMD 3, FROM. Easy to ventilate. Nurse brandishes a Mac 4(!). Noodles around for a while before bailing out for a little more propofol and ventilation. Next he switches to a Miller 3, this time gooses it. Another bail out. He says she is "pretty anterior" even w/some pressure from me. Now the waters are muddied up a bit and the Miller 3 has blood on the end of it but she is still very easy to ventilate. There is a moderate amount of carnage to the lip.

Do you do the deed or do you think it should be three strikes and yer out?

I absolutely take a look. Worst case scenario throw an LMA in if I cant intubate and proceed. You didnt mention anything about her history or what case we are doing. So I am assuming everything is fine and there are no real contraindications to an LMA. If you have to have her intubated you can always FO through the LMA if needed.
 
Agree with above. I think 1 person gets 2 shots (1 with each blade). Then you should do something different, either different person or different technique. And ensure that positioning is optimized (I've noticed being less attentive about this with patients I think will be easy).
 
Alright today I was working with a CRNA who is a pretty good guy, older, fairly experienced easy to get along with dude. So we put this LOL (little ol' lady) to sleep for some routine case. The pt. had an unremarkable airway exam, MP3, OA/TMD 3, FROM. Easy to ventilate. Nurse brandishes a Mac 4(!). Noodles around for a while before bailing out for a little more propofol and ventilation. Next he switches to a Miller 3, this time gooses it. Another bail out. He says she is "pretty anterior" even w/some pressure from me. Now the waters are muddied up a bit and the Miller 3 has blood on the end of it but she is still very easy to ventilate. There is a moderate amount of carnage to the lip.

Do you do the deed or do you think it should be three strikes and yer out?

I'd take a look.

Optimize everything like you want it, whatever that means.....table all the way down, table way up, Miller 2, Mac 3...

when the situation calls for you to step into the role of

"OK, this is gonna be hard,"

take the extra minute to make everything to your liking so your shot is a bullseye.

"Hey, lets put a shoulder roll in."

"Dude, can you take the pink donut pillow thinghy out for me?"

"Please get me a REAL Miller two."

"Please get me a Mac 3."

Whatever your ducks are, have them lined up....you've got time to make it like Arch wants it....she's easy to ventilate.

ABSOLUTELY have the Bougie in your right hand/sitting on patient's chest/in the hands of assistant and plan on using it, cuz if this seasoned dude is having problems its probably gonna be tight.

MAKE IT LIKE ARCH WANTS IT.

LOCK AND LOAD.

TAKE THE SHOT.👍

If you've optimized everything, you visualize....taking your time using whatever tricks work for you....and you don't see s hit,

no big deal.

Time for Plan B, which you planned in your head before you took da look.... (while you are sitting there bagging away awaiting all the stuff to be optimized.....shoulder roll in, new blade, whatever....you're running thru your plans...."OKAY I'M GONNA OPTIMIZE EVERYTHING, THEN I"M GONNA GIVE IT MY BEST SHOT. IF I FAIL I'M GONNA DO XXXXXXXXXX)
 
All good answers.

Truth be told, I was DYING to do the intubation!

But I didn't.

In hindsight we should have changed position some with a shoulder roll but sad to say I didn't really think about it too much because there was no indication that she would be difficult at all. Each time he did the DL he said he caught a glimpse of something and our position wasn't that bad to begin with.

At no time did the O2 sats fall or was there any difficulty ventilating.

I am still trying to sort out when to let things proceed and when to TAKE THE BULL BY THE HORNS. Since he was reasonable, experienced and was trying different blades (albeit wrong ones) I let him proceed.

So a little more lip carnage ensued and another glimpse of the cords was had. I grabbed a bougie and without too much ado it was passed and everything was fine thereafter. Strangely enough he took the gd bougie and turned that thing around backasswards before threading it through. I have never seen that one before!

Anyways the case proceeded uneventfully. At the end when it was wake up time she was breathing about 14 times a minute w/tidal volumes of about 200. Decent pattern and TV was kinda crappy but nothing too unusual.

The thing was she wasn't waking up too much (remember she was a LOL) and I don't think she required the obligatory 1+ MACthat the nurses always run. Anyhow I think the CRNA was kinda embarrassed because he flailed on the tube and now this gomer wasn't waking up. So he did a toughman jawlift on her when she had about .3 mac of sevo still on and she grimaced (sorta) but nothing spectacular. He reached for the 10 cc syringe to let the cuff down but I was a little leery at this point. Reversal was not an issue nor were blood/secretions.
 
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If I tube the goose with a second view after a normal exam, I expect to get my ass booted to the curb.
 
All good answers.

Truth be told, I was DYING to do the intubation!

But I didn't.

In hindsight we should have changed position some with a shoulder roll but sad to say I didn't really think about it too much because there was no indication that she would be difficult at all. Each time he did the DL he said he caught a glimpse of something and our position wasn't that bad to begin with.

At no time did the O2 sats fall or was there any difficulty ventilating.

I am still trying to sort out when to let things proceed and when to TAKE THE BULL BY THE HORNS. Since he was reasonable, experienced and was trying different blades (albeit wrong ones) I let him proceed.

So a little more lip carnage ensued and another glimpse of the cords was had. I grabbed a bougie and without too much ado it was passed and everything was fine thereafter. Strangely enough he took the gd bougie and turned that thing around backasswards before threading it through. I have never seen that one before!

Anyways the case proceeded uneventfully. At the end when it was wake up time she was breathing about 14 times a minute w/tidal volumes of about 200. Decent pattern and TV was kinda crappy but nothing too unusual.

The thing was she wasn't waking up too much (remember she was a LOL) and I don't think she required the obligatory 1+ MACthat the nurses always run. Anyhow I think the CRNA was kinda embarrassed because he flailed on the tube and now this gomer wasn't waking up. So he did a toughman jawlift on her when she had about .3 mac of sevo still on and she grimaced (sorta) but nothing spectacular. He reached for the 10 cc syringe to let the cuff down but I was a little leery at this point. Reversal was not an issue nor were blood/secretions.

obviously not starting fires here, but wrong in your eyes? isn't the idea to "change it up" when things don't work right the first time? your first choice isn't the next first's choice. it's just funny how much doc's want to have the 'opportunity' to smear nurses.. perhaps just because. i have to just shake my head, and yea, i know this is a doc site, but still.. not upholding your 'honor' just the same... it will never end.
 
All good answers.

Truth be told, I was DYING to do the intubation!

But I didn't.

In hindsight we should have changed position some with a shoulder roll but sad to say I didn't really think about it too much because there was no indication that she would be difficult at all. Each time he did the DL he said he caught a glimpse of something and our position wasn't that bad to begin with.

At no time did the O2 sats fall or was there any difficulty ventilating.

I am still trying to sort out when to let things proceed and when to TAKE THE BULL BY THE HORNS. Since he was reasonable, experienced and was trying different blades (albeit wrong ones) I let him proceed.

So a little more lip carnage ensued and another glimpse of the cords was had. I grabbed a bougie and without too much ado it was passed and everything was fine thereafter. Strangely enough he took the gd bougie and turned that thing around backasswards before threading it through. I have never seen that one before!

Anyways the case proceeded uneventfully. At the end when it was wake up time she was breathing about 14 times a minute w/tidal volumes of about 200. Decent pattern and TV was kinda crappy but nothing too unusual.

The thing was she wasn't waking up too much (remember she was a LOL) and I don't think she required the obligatory 1+ MACthat the nurses always run. Anyhow I think the CRNA was kinda embarrassed because he flailed on the tube and now this gomer wasn't waking up. So he did a toughman jawlift on her when she had about .3 mac of sevo still on and she grimaced (sorta) but nothing spectacular. He reached for the 10 cc syringe to let the cuff down but I was a little leery at this point. Reversal was not an issue nor were blood/secretions.
There is no such a thing as emergency extubation!
She's not responding, moving small tidal volume and was difficult to intubate:
Leave her tubed until she is ready.
 
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obviously not starting fires here, but wrong in your eyes? isn't the idea to "change it up" when things don't work right the first time? your first choice isn't the next first's choice. it's just funny how much doc's want to have the 'opportunity' to smear nurses.. perhaps just because. i have to just shake my head, and yea, i know this is a doc site, but still.. not upholding your 'honor' just the same... it will never end.

I honestly don't think he was trying to "smear nurses" but if you are trying to transform this thread into another silly CRNA debate I strongly suggest that you don't!
Thank you.
 
I don't bother looking....I suck.
 
I honestly don't think he was trying to "smear nurses" but if you are trying to transform this thread into another silly CRNA debate I strongly suggest that you don't!
Thank you.

i wasn't and am not trying. i am just curious why they were the wrong choices (aside from the fact that they didn't work). that's all.
 
i wasn't and am not trying. i am just curious why they were the wrong choices (aside from the fact that they didn't work). that's all.

Most reasonable people would not consider a MAC 4 the ideal blade to intubate a little old lady and a miller 3 wouldn't be a better choice either.
Using a huge blade on a Little lady with a small mouth and calcified jaw is not a very elegant thing to do and can cause bloody lips and broken teeth.
 
I think this is a very legitimate question, especially for those of us new to working with CRNA's. Most of the CRNA's I work with are excellent with the airway, but the times they don't get it on the first try they should have a second look with a different blade/position, etc. If that doesn't work then I think it's best to let someone else try. They may or may not be more experienced, and that's OK, sometimes it's just not your day and a fresh set of hands and eyes is all that is needed. I didn't take this to be a CRNA smear post at all and I can imagine a solo CRNA would ask for help after a second failed attempt from a colleague as well.
 
Why let the CRNA have any shot at all. As far as I'm concerned they are there to chart vitals and let you know when things aren't right with the patient. I can understand if there is something more critital such as severe hemodynamic instability in an otherwise easy airway but come on. At most one and done as far as I'm concerned. Letting a resident who is in training and will be fully responsible in the future is one thing, but on the outside its patient care and business. Not Oh let me try let me try. I would tell that guy to get the F@@@ out of the way as soon as he touched a mac 4.
 
obviously not starting fires here, but wrong in your eyes? isn't the idea to "change it up" when things don't work right the first time? your first choice isn't the next first's choice. it's just funny how much doc's want to have the 'opportunity' to smear nurses.. perhaps just because. i have to just shake my head, and yea, i know this is a doc site, but still.. not upholding your 'honor' just the same... it will never end.

Again, it is not your job to infiltrate every thread where a nurse is insulted and defend their name. Again, i have no clue why mods here allow it.

As for your statement "it's just funny how much doc's want to have the 'opportunity' to smear nurses". This is incorrect, we do not WANT to have the opportunity for poor patient care, but when you provide it, it should certainly be pointed it out.

Instead of asking Arch why the nurse picked the wrong blade, it would be better if you explained why a MAC 4 on a LOL would be the right blade.
 
I don't bother looking....I suck.

And another EXCELLENT reason not to get your hands in there is this.

Airway injuries happen when there is a traumatic DL....

teeth, lip, tongue, pharyngeal tissue, and GOD FORBID the trachea or esophagus.

The second you put your hands in that airway, is the second that you have just spread the liability to yourself.

Don't be a hero, or have a big ego.....just try something else.
 
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And another EXCELLENT reason not to get your hands in there is this.

Airway injuries happen when there is a traumatic DL....

teeth, lip, tongue, pharyngeal tissue, and GOD FORBID the trachea or esophagus.

The second you put your hands in that airway, is the second that you have just spread the liability to yourself.
Don't be a hero, or have a big ego.....just try something else.

If he is the supervising anesthesiologist, he will be in trouble whether he touches the patient or not since he is ultimately responsible for the patient.
 
If he is the supervising anesthesiologist, he will be in trouble whether he touches the patient or not since he is ultimately responsible for the patient.

Nope, that's not how it works.

In many instances, CRNA's carry their OWN malpractice insurance, and for certain things the attending anesthesiologist is not responsible.

For example, our hospital employed CRNA's have hospital malpractice, AIRWAY injuries where I NEVER instrumented the patient are taken care of by the hospital.

However, if any of our GROUP employed CRNA's cause injury, then, whether one of us did anything, we take care of it.
 
And another EXCELLENT reason not to get your hands in there is this.

Airway injuries happen when there is a traumatic DL....

teeth, lip, tongue, pharyngeal tissue, and GOD FORBID the trachea or esophagus.

The second you put your hands in that airway, is the second that you have just spread the liability to yourself.

Don't be a hero, or have a big ego.....just try something else.

I was thinking of guys like you, Tough, when i typed that one out.
 
Again, it is not your job to infiltrate every thread where a nurse is insulted and defend their name. Again, i have no clue why mods here allow it.

As for your statement "it's just funny how much doc's want to have the 'opportunity' to smear nurses". This is incorrect, we do not WANT to have the opportunity for poor patient care, but when you provide it, it should certainly be pointed it out.

Instead of asking Arch why the nurse picked the wrong blade, it would be better if you explained why a MAC 4 on a LOL would be the right blade.

well southpaw, in case you misread the thread, my intention was not to "infiltrate", as you continue to point out. how about you not responding to any of the nurses' responses.

in an attempt to respond, i will simply say that personally, i wouldn't have chosen a mac 4 OR mil 3 for this LOL. i wanted to know FROM THE OP why they said/thought what they did. not you.

and for the record, intubation can be done with these blades however "inappropriate" they might be in this instance.
 
well southpaw, in case you misread the thread, my intention was not to "infiltrate", as you continue to point out. how about you not responding to any of the nurses' responses.

Unacceptable. In the med student forum, there are complaints of residents and yet they don't feel the need to defend themselves at each and every post. It's to be expected. Same goes for the pre-med forum, intern forum, other resident/physician forums, etc. etc. As an anesthesiology forum, there is absolutely no need for you and isoman to jump in every time a nurse is insulted and respond with some variant of "well, docs are constantly looking for a reason to insult a nurse" or "well, the docs i work with do the same thing". Regardless, I understand your need to be so defensive.
 
I have a great idea, why don't we keep to the point of the thread.
 
and for the record, intubation can be done with these blades however "inappropriate" they might be in this instance.

Intubation can probably be done with some jaw thrust and a tongue depressor. That doesn't make it right. If you fail to intubate with a tongue depressor, people will probably ask WTF you were thinking.

Since you've mentioned you wouldn't use either of those blades, you can quit putting the air quotes around inappropriate.
 
Nope, that's not how it works.

In many instances, CRNA's carry their OWN malpractice insurance, and for certain things the attending anesthesiologist is not responsible.

For example, our hospital employed CRNA's have hospital malpractice, AIRWAY injuries where I NEVER instrumented the patient are taken care of by the hospital.

However, if any of our GROUP employed CRNA's cause injury, then, whether one of us did anything, we take care of it.


I stand corrected. Does it matter whether you are supervising vs medically directing?
 
obviously not starting fires here, but wrong in your eyes? isn't the idea to "change it up" when things don't work right the first time? your first choice isn't the next first's choice. it's just funny how much doc's want to have the 'opportunity' to smear nurses.. perhaps just because. i have to just shake my head, and yea, i know this is a doc site, but still.. not upholding your 'honor' just the same... it will never end.

You are starting fires and none of us appreciate it.

I am not "smearing" nurses. If you go back to my original post you will see that I referred to this nurse as "a pretty good guy, older, fairly experienced easy to get along with dude."

Smear?😕

If I wanted to smear nurses I would relay that this afternoon in the span of 2 hours I witnessed the following:

A nurse grossly overdose narcotics on a patient so that he had to get two doses of narcan to wake up.

A nurse not notice that a pt. was completely apneic.

A nurse drop off a patient in the PACU who was not sure of the pts. medical history nor the exact surgery that was undertaken.

A nurse tell me that it was time to wake up only to find that a half mac of iso was on after a six hour case. I walked down the hall to sign some more charts, took a piss, made a couple of phone calls, then came back in the room and the pt. "woke up" 5 minutes later.

On another pt. I noticed that the propofol was running at .45 ml AN HOUR.. The units were mcg/kg/hr. When I asked WTF was she doing she replied that the pt. was too sedated and snoring and the propofol was "going too fast" (though she didn't know the rate in ml per hour) when the pump was set on mcg/kg/min. So rather than turning the rate down, she switched the units. I felt like I was living in an alternate universe.

But I am not here to smear nurses, so forget about all of that.🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

The point of the thread was to get some input about when it is appropriate to step in and take over procedures, an issue that many of us face as new attendings.

You have a chip on your shoulder as do many of your brethren. I suggest you get rid of it if you are going to be accepted around here. This is the student DOCTOR network. If you don't like it here, then leave. Try a nurse forum. None of us want to hear your whining and none of us want to see you try to hijack threads because of your own inferiority complex.

I have "taken over" 2 airways so far. The first was after a nurse goosed it two times. Another nursehad wandered in the room. He clearly heard me say that I wanted to take the next look but as I had my back turned and was getting some gloves he took a quick look himslef and wouldn't you know it, he goosed it as well. He took the look because he wanted to be a hero, but he really was a zero. I took one look and snuck it in. And these were 2 "experienced" nurses. They couldn't stand the fact that I put the tube in and they couldn't. When a resident struggled I helped him out and he wanted to know what he could do better the next time. That's the difference between us.

Do not respond to this by arguing because none of us want to hear it and I will delete it. The gas forum is a unique place and we don't need you trying to spoil it.
 
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There is no such a thing as emergency extubation!
She's not responding, moving small tidal volume and was difficult to intubate:
Leave her tubed until she is ready.

I agree she wasn't really ready but the CRNA was itching to yank it out. I get so tired of this macho bravado crap. Do what's right for the pt. not your own ego.

So I waited a little and pulled it out anyway and guess what it was sorta early. Nothing bad happened but she needed some help to protect her airway.
 
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in an attempt to respond, i will simply say that personally, i wouldn't have chosen a mac 4 OR mil 3 for this LOL. i wanted to know FROM THE OP why they said/thought what they did. not you.

Both blades were too big for her. The mac is my "go to" blade and I have probably used it a dozen times out of over maybe 500 tubes.
 
Why let the CRNA have any shot at all. As far as I'm concerned they are there to chart vitals and let you know when things aren't right with the patient. I can understand if there is something more critital such as severe hemodynamic instability in an otherwise easy airway but come on. At most one and done as far as I'm concerned. Letting a resident who is in training and will be fully responsible in the future is one thing, but on the outside its patient care and business. Not Oh let me try let me try. I would tell that guy to get the F@@@ out of the way as soon as he touched a mac 4.

That is easy to say but this is not reality for me. It is not always so cut and dry when to step in.
 
That is easy to say but this is not reality for me. It is not always so cut and dry when to step in.

No it's not always clear and many times you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings especially if they happen to be good CRNA's and people you work with everyday.
But if you feel that what's going on is not in the patient's best interest or is not what you would consider good patient care then you need to step in.
When to step in: When the CRNA is not doing what you think is the right next step or when you think that the whole plan is not working.
 
Both blades were too big for her. The mac is my "go to" blade and I have probably used it a dozen times out of over maybe 500 tubes.

that's all i wanted to know. so, thanks.
 
Both blades were too big for her. The mac is my "go to" blade and I have probably used it a dozen times out of over maybe 500 tubes.

Interesting. I'm usually a Mac 3 person for just about everyone past grammar school age. But on the unexpected difficult intubation, after taking about 15 seconds to reposition the blade, the head, the shoulders, do a BURP, etc, I'll reach for a Miller 3 (not 2). That has gotten me out of the swamp almost every time.

It's neat that our profession offers so many different (yet equally effective) ways to skin the cat. Think how boring it would be if we only had 1 or 2 ways to do a given anesthetic. Equally interesting is how there's such a wide variation in patient responses to our drugs. People don't come with medicine sensitivity meters on their foreheads. Helps keep us engaged in the case and prevents the "auto-pilot" zone out.
 
Why let the CRNA have any shot at all. As far as I'm concerned they are there to chart vitals and let you know when things aren't right with the patient.

...heavy sigh...

Totally not based in reality.
 
Alright today I was working with a CRNA who is a pretty good guy, older, fairly experienced easy to get along with dude. So we put this LOL (little ol' lady) to sleep for some routine case. The pt. had an unremarkable airway exam, MP3, OA/TMD 3, FROM. Easy to ventilate. Nurse brandishes a Mac 4(!). Noodles around for a while before bailing out for a little more propofol and ventilation. Next he switches to a Miller 3, this time gooses it. Another bail out. He says she is "pretty anterior" even w/some pressure from me. Now the waters are muddied up a bit and the Miller 3 has blood on the end of it but she is still very easy to ventilate. There is a moderate amount of carnage to the lip.

Do you do the deed or do you think it should be three strikes and yer out?

OK, back to the OP.

1) I would be the first to say the first choice of blade(s) in this patient were probably not appropriate. That being said, lots of people, MD, CRNA, and AA alike, do some pretty bizarre things and do perfectly well in practice. My personal choice is a Mac 3 for 99% of the time. I never start with a straight blade. Others are exactly the opposite. Coming out of the Emory system, a straight blade was considered a nurse blade - yet I work for a group where 25 years ago, literally, they would not hire someone who used a curved blade routinely. To each his own. The best blade is the one YOU can get the tube in without a problem 99% of the time on the first try.

2) Three strikes? Two strikes? One? None? Let's deal with reality. I've placed 10's of thousands of ETT's. I get humbled a couple times a year, and help out and humble someone else a couple times a year. That should be the norm with most of us. We shouldn't be in the OR if we don't hit the vast majority of our intubations unassisted.

On an intubation that's surprisingly more difficult than I anticipate, I always have a plan B, C, and even D in mind. Again, just like choice of blade, your choice of plan B,C, or D is highly variable. Mine would be something along the line of A) add a stylet if I didn't already have one in, then try again B) straight blade only if I thought that would be a better choice C) light wand or glidescope if it happens to be in the room D) next operator.

I'm happy to step aside for anyone to give it a try if I'm not seeing anything. I hate missing a tube as much as anyone, but I have no ego when it comes to getting a secure airway. I've never been pushed aside by anyone in my groups because they think they can do it better, but I'm happy to step aside for anyone to give it a try if I'm not seeing anything. I hate missing a tube as much as anyone, but I have no ego when it comes to getting a secure airway. Fortunately, I work in an ACT practice that uses the talents of all it's members, regardless of the degree, for the benefit of the patient.
 
That is easy to say but this is not reality for me. It is not always so cut and dry when to step in.

Arch-

I hear you on everything you did. I think that was especially nice of you to allow the nurse to try a few times.

Nevertheless, you are the MD. If you think the nurse is doing something wrong, you can trump the nurse and take the airway. Of course, everyone has a different threshold for taking over. If it were my mom/sister/etc I would want a physician to step in and take care of that airways, without having a nurse bloody, "carnage" the airway up.

When another DOCTOR tells me it's a hard airway, I think there's more substance to the statement.

About the extubation....I agree. stick with your instinct. If you think it was a hard airway and the nurse is trying to extubate too early. Check him.

I dont care if a nurse is "older"than me. There's a knowledge difference. You do have to respect your elders, but when it comes to knowledge/medicine...you've got light years on them.
 
OK, back to the OP.

1) I would be the first to say the first choice of blade(s) in this patient were probably not appropriate. That being said, lots of people, MD, CRNA, and AA alike, do some pretty bizarre things and do perfectly well in practice. My personal choice is a Mac 3 for 99% of the time. I never start with a straight blade. Others are exactly the opposite. Coming out of the Emory system, a straight blade was considered a nurse blade - yet I work for a group where 25 years ago, literally, they would not hire someone who used a curved blade routinely. To each his own. The best blade is the one YOU can get the tube in without a problem 99% of the time on the first try.

2) Three strikes? Two strikes? One? None? Let's deal with reality. I've placed 10's of thousands of ETT's. I get humbled a couple times a year, and help out and humble someone else a couple times a year. That should be the norm with most of us. We shouldn't be in the OR if we don't hit the vast majority of our intubations unassisted.

On an intubation that's surprisingly more difficult than I anticipate, I always have a plan B, C, and even D in mind. Again, just like choice of blade, your choice of plan B,C, or D is highly variable. Mine would be something along the line of A) add a stylet if I didn't already have one in, then try again B) straight blade only if I thought that would be a better choice C) light wand or glidescope if it happens to be in the room D) next operator.

I'm happy to step aside for anyone to give it a try if I'm not seeing anything. I hate missing a tube as much as anyone, but I have no ego when it comes to getting a secure airway. I've never been pushed aside by anyone in my groups because they think they can do it better, but I'm happy to step aside for anyone to give it a try if I'm not seeing anything. I hate missing a tube as much as anyone, but I have no ego when it comes to getting a secure airway. Fortunately, I work in an ACT practice that uses the talents of all it's members, regardless of the degree, for the benefit of the patient.


JWK, the consumate professional.

As always.👍
 
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OK, back to the OP.

1) I would be the first to say the first choice of blade(s) in this patient were probably not appropriate. That being said, lots of people, MD, CRNA, and AA alike, do some pretty bizarre things and do perfectly well in practice. My personal choice is a Mac 3 for 99% of the time. I never start with a straight blade. Others are exactly the opposite. Coming out of the Emory system, a straight blade was considered a nurse blade - yet I work for a group where 25 years ago, literally, they would not hire someone who used a curved blade routinely. To each his own. The best blade is the one YOU can get the tube in without a problem 99% of the time on the first try.

2) Three strikes? Two strikes? One? None? Let's deal with reality. I've placed 10's of thousands of ETT's. I get humbled a couple times a year, and help out and humble someone else a couple times a year. That should be the norm with most of us. We shouldn't be in the OR if we don't hit the vast majority of our intubations unassisted.

On an intubation that's surprisingly more difficult than I anticipate, I always have a plan B, C, and even D in mind. Again, just like choice of blade, your choice of plan B,C, or D is highly variable. Mine would be something along the line of A) add a stylet if I didn't already have one in, then try again B) straight blade only if I thought that would be a better choice C) light wand or glidescope if it happens to be in the room D) next operator.

I'm happy to step aside for anyone to give it a try if I'm not seeing anything. I hate missing a tube as much as anyone, but I have no ego when it comes to getting a secure airway. I've never been pushed aside by anyone in my groups because they think they can do it better, but I'm happy to step aside for anyone to give it a try if I'm not seeing anything. I hate missing a tube as much as anyone, but I have no ego when it comes to getting a secure airway. Fortunately, I work in an ACT practice that uses the talents of all it's members, regardless of the degree, for the benefit of the patient.


Outstanding commentary. 👍
 
OK, back to the OP.

1) I would be the first to say the first choice of blade(s) in this patient were probably not appropriate. That being said, lots of people, MD, CRNA, and AA alike, do some pretty bizarre things and do perfectly well in practice. My personal choice is a Mac 3 for 99% of the time. I never start with a straight blade. Others are exactly the opposite. Coming out of the Emory system, a straight blade was considered a nurse blade - yet I work for a group where 25 years ago, literally, they would not hire someone who used a curved blade routinely. To each his own. The best blade is the one YOU can get the tube in without a problem 99% of the time on the first try.

2) Three strikes? Two strikes? One? None? Let's deal with reality. I've placed 10's of thousands of ETT's. I get humbled a couple times a year, and help out and humble someone else a couple times a year. That should be the norm with most of us. We shouldn't be in the OR if we don't hit the vast majority of our intubations unassisted.

On an intubation that's surprisingly more difficult than I anticipate, I always have a plan B, C, and even D in mind. Again, just like choice of blade, your choice of plan B,C, or D is highly variable. Mine would be something along the line of A) add a stylet if I didn't already have one in, then try again B) straight blade only if I thought that would be a better choice C) light wand or glidescope if it happens to be in the room D) next operator.

I'm happy to step aside for anyone to give it a try if I'm not seeing anything. I hate missing a tube as much as anyone, but I have no ego when it comes to getting a secure airway. I've never been pushed aside by anyone in my groups because they think they can do it better, but I'm happy to step aside for anyone to give it a try if I'm not seeing anything. I hate missing a tube as much as anyone, but I have no ego when it comes to getting a secure airway. Fortunately, I work in an ACT practice that uses the talents of all it's members, regardless of the degree, for the benefit of the patient.

Nice well thought out response!
 
Arch-

I hear you on everything you did. I think that was especially nice of you to allow the nurse to try a few times.

Nevertheless, you are the MD. If you think the nurse is doing something wrong, you can trump the nurse and take the airway. Of course, everyone has a different threshold for taking over. If it were my mom/sister/etc I would want a physician to step in and take care of that airways, without having a nurse bloody, "carnage" the airway up.

When another DOCTOR tells me it's a hard airway, I think there's more substance to the statement.

About the extubation....I agree. stick with your instinct. If you think it was a hard airway and the nurse is trying to extubate too early. Check him.

I dont care if a nurse is "older"than me. There's a knowledge difference. You do have to respect your elders, but when it comes to knowledge/medicine...you've got light years on them.

Sleep I hear you as well. I always heard that the learning curve coming out of residency was steep (and it is) but it involves more than becoming quicker and slicker. It also deals with issues such as these when you have to make decisions that involve clinical care but are more of an "administrative" decison for lack of a better word. Hindsight is always 20/20 and in this case I wish that I had taken a look after the second goose. I diddn't though and maybe next time I'll react differently.

I consider myself pretty facile with airways and intubation, after the first few months of residency I rarely had to give up an airway and can't recollect the last time I goosed one. I may not be able to intubate a fully gravid fire ant but I can probably put a snorkel in one that is 24 months pregnant😀. Now we all know that a monkey can intubate so why should I be better at it than folks who have been doing it for 20+ years? I don't know the answer to that one. What I do know is that I am pretty good at it and sometimes I need to take the bull by the horns - and now my threshold to do that has now been lowered somewhat.
 
Now we all know that a monkey can intubate so why should I be better at it than folks who have been doing it for 20+ years? .

Speaking at least about your scenerio, Arch, I think this is an important educational point so I'll take the opportunity to make it:

Even anesthesiologists/AAs/CRNAs who yield THE FORCE need another set of eyes/hands occasionally.

JWK replied so eloquently! Thanks for that contribution, Sir.

It is easy, especially early in your career to feel like a failure if you need help with something that you've "failed" at, whether its an airway, a regional block, vascular access, whatever.

Heres a pragmatic, chronologic approach to what your emotions should be, speaking about the technical aspect of our job. Some people will fall below this and if you find youself below, seek guidance from someone better than you, or consider psychiatry. 🙂lol:🙂

CA1: Hitting some targets. Still learning. Attending intervention common.

CA2: Hitting alotta targets. Still learning. Some attending intervention needed.

CA3: Hitting most targets. Still learning. Attendings kinda give you DA ROPES and intervene when you say "Dude, can you give me a hand?"

Years 1-3 in private practice: You're good. There are alotta tricks/finetuning/wasted time that will be corrected as you do our trade over and over in a busy environment. Still learning. New private practice partners who are seasoned in DA BIZ will show you cool techniques that make you bigger, faster, stronger. Still learning.

Years 4-5 in private practice: You've got most stuff figured out. Every once in a while, though, you'll do a procedure and something very small will happen....minorly different hand position, a different needle, but you'll notice a POSITIVE difference, make a mental note, and modify your technique. Still learning. Every once in a while you'll call a partner and say, "Dude, can you give me a hand?" Still learning.

Years 6 thru retirement: You've got most stuff figured out. You've seen mosta the cool tricks, but not all. Every once in a while you'll call a partner and say "Dude, can you give me a hand?" Still learning.


I've been in this biz 12 years now.

Thats a pretty long time, huh?

Most gravid fire ants, I can intubate with a Miller 2.

But not all of them.

I accepted a long time ago it'll never be all of them.

And thats OK.

Like JWK so eloquently described, if you make your living doing this anesthesia gig, even if you yield THE FORCE, even if you've been in this biz for over a decade,

every once in a while you're gonna haffta call a colleague and say

"DUDE, can ya take a look?"


......


THATS WHY, ARCH,

sometimes you are better than someone whos been doing this 20 years.
 
There is alotta USELESS, ERRONEOUS BANTER on this thread......accusing kinda stuff....

about blade selection, who should look, etc.

Here's the real-life lowdown on that:

:bullcrap::bullcrap::bullcrap::bullcrap::bullcrap:

Are you guys serious, calling out "an appropriate blade for a little old lady?"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

TRINITY in a previous post, addressed this in a much more eloquent way than I'm capable of.....he said something like "....the beauty of our profession is theres so many ways to kill a cat....a clinician can accomplish the same end-result with so many ways....."

I usta work with a CRNA who used a Mac 4 on EVERY ADULT.

He did it gently, effectively, and successfully.

My residency Chairman, a british dude, used a Mac 3 on every adult.

I never saw him miss.

I use a Miller 2 most always, especially when the chips are down.

I've read alotta B.S. from alotta rookies, and even some dudes with experience calling out what the RIGHT blade is for some situation.

Or what the WRONG blade is for a specific patient/scenerio.

Sorry,

and I wish I could muster the eloquence of JWK and TRIN, but I can't, so I'll just respond:

THATS B.S..

There is no such thing as an APPROPRIATE BLADE. Or an INAPPROPRIATE BLADE.

What matters is if YOU NORMALLY YIELD DA FORCE with whatever blade you use.

Oh, and OUT HERE IN REAL LIFE it doesnt matter who looks first/second/third.

What matters is TEAMWORK.

Communication.

Accomplishing the task.

I strive to conduct myself clinically LIKE THE AWESOME THREAD ABOVE BY JWK.

And so should you.

Regardless of your title.
 
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There is alotta USELESS, ERRONEOUS BANTER on this thread......accusing kinda stuff....

about blade selection, who should look, etc.

Here's the real-life lowdown on that:

:bullcrap::bullcrap::bullcrap::bullcrap::bullcrap:

Are you guys serious, calling out "an appropriate blade for a little old lady?"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

TRINITY in a previous post, addressed this in a much more eloquent way than I'm capable of.....he said something like "....the beauty of our profession is theres so many ways to kill a cat....a clinician can accomplish the same end-result with so many ways....."

I usta work with a CRNA who used a Mac 4 on EVERY ADULT.

He did it gently, effectively, and successfully.

My residency Chairman, a british dude, used a Mac 3 on every adult.

I never saw him miss.

I use a Miller 2 most always, especially when the chips are down.

I've read alotta B.S. from alotta rookies, and even some dudes with experience calling out what the RIGHT blade is for some situation.

Or what the WRONG blade is for a specific patient/scenerio.

Sorry,

and I wish I could muster the eloquence of JWK and TRIN, but I can't, so I'll just respond:

THATS A BUNCHA B ULLS HIT.

There is no such thing as an APPROPRIATE BLADE. Or an INAPPROPRIATE BLADE.

What matters is if YOU NORMALLY YIELD DA FORCE with whatever blade you use.

Oh, and OUT HERE IN REAL LIFE it doesnt matter who looks first/second/third.

What matters is TEAMWORK.

Communication.

Accomplishing the task.

I prefer to leave the DICK SWINGING, I, ME, HEY EVERYONE LOOK AT ME, I CAN DO THIS ALL BY MYSELF, AND EVEN IF I CANT I'M GONNA SIT HERE ALL F U KKING DAY TRYING for someone else.

I conduct myself clinically LIKE THE AWESOME THREAD ABOVE BY JWK.

And so should you.

Regardless of title.
If you use a MAC 4 on a little old lady as the first blade it is the wrong blade.
 
If you use a MAC 4 on a little old lady as the first blade it is the wrong blade.

I would never use that as my first choice.

Actually, I would NEVER use a Mac 4, since I SUCK with that blade.

I have witnessed, however, 2 very seasoned clinicians, one MD, one CRNA, who use the Mac 4 as their EVERY DAY BLADE.

They use it EVERY DAY, ALL DAY.

This biz is a very difficult one, Plank, to place a wrong label on something.

Who are you to say its wrong if the tube is placed atraumatically, 99% of the time?

I agree its atypical.

Alotta readers would say my practice of performing CSE ONLY FOR LABOR ANALGESIA is atypical.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "WRONG" BLADE, PLANK.

Unless you miss alot/cause damage with "that blade".

Then, and only then, is it the wrong blade.
 
Cuz you got skills, and girls like guys with skills?

It's skillz dude, get it straight

skillz.jpg
 
There is no such thing as an APPROPRIATE BLADE. Or an INAPPROPRIATE BLADE.

I thought good lord why put that huge piece of metal in this poor LOL's mouth? This is not the first time that I have thought this to myself. Every time though I have kept my mouth shut because my opinion is as long as you can get from point A to point B safely I don't care how you do it. I don't care how you do it, just do it safely. Just like I don't try to dictate what anesthetic the CRNA uses, so long as the pt. stays comfortable. At this point I don't worry about costs but that may change in the future. The only time I have ever suggested someone try a different blade on a pt. was when a SRNA was about to intubare someone with a normal airway with a Miller 3. The thing was, I didn't say anything. I looked at the CRNA like 😱, he looked back at me like 🙄 and suggested the SRNA try a smaller blade.
 
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