Do you know anyone that failed out of med school?

[Goro]

I think you are fighting an uphill battle here. My generation has a lot of snowflakes that can't handle the heat..

Yup! That's why I use the Ignore function!

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[psychMDhopefully]

I think you are fighting an uphill battle here. My generation has a lot of snowflakes that can't handle the heat..

In all fairness, the words "weak student" shouldn't apply to someone in med school because you have to be a strong student at the university level just to get into med school. Use the term weak students for people that can't make it out of HS or college. A lot of PhDs underestimate how challenging getting a MD is, hate to say this but a lot of them are PhDs because they couldn't get into med school, I guess they are weak students.

 

[intubesteak]

In all fairness, the words "weak student" shouldn't apply to someone in med school because you have to be a strong student at the university level just to get into med school. Use the term weak students for people that can't make it out of HS or college. A lot of PhDs underestimate how challenging getting an MD is, hate to say this but a lot of the are PhDs because they couldn't get into med school, I guess they are weak students.

I think the best thing someone who is struggling can do is admit they might be a "weak student", and adjust accordingly. Accept themselves for who they are instead of pretending to be something they are not. Some people have to work harder than others to get the same results. Speaking from personal experience.

And some people get into med school despite actually being really, really weak students by every measure. My school goes out of its way to accept people with bad stats who will make good doctors if they can make it through (I am probably one of those people).

 

[psychMDhopefully]

I think the best thing someone who is struggling can do is admit they might be a "weak student", and adjust accordingly. Accept themselves for who they are instead of pretending to be something they are not. Some people have to work harder than others to get the same results. Speaking from personal experience.

And some people get into med school despite actually being really, really weak students by every measure. My school goes out of its way to accept people with bad stats who will make good doctors if they can make it through (I am probably one of those people).

If you got through university physics and organic chemistry with at least a B, you are not a weak student. Especially not compared to the general population. And where are all these med schools going out of their way to accept people with bad stats? I wouldn't be surprised if the average GPA for matriculants nowadays is 3.8 for MD schools.

 

[arcus]

Yup! That's why I use the Ignore function!

Pity we dont have an ignore button in the hospital to depress when physicians and admins merit it...

 

[sammiesings]

Yup! That's why I use the Ignore function!

Yes please ignore me because I've been just so outrageous to suggest as an educator you not refer to your students pejoratively. How very snowflake-y of me.

They're lucky to have ya. Here's a mutual "ignore" for ya!

 

[Newyawk]

A lot of doctors do too.

They either get sued, fined, or go to prison.

Is it fair to compare sharing an answer on an exam with treating patients unethically? Surely you have more of the former than the latter.

 

[Catman21]

Someone was allowed to repeat a year for academic dishonesty?

lol so some people get entirely screened out for cheating in undergrad and then ya go ahead and let em repeat in med school

 

[Goro]

lol so some people get entirely screened out for cheating in undergrad and then ya go ahead and let em repeat in med school

Context matters. There's cheating, like not citing sources in a paper, or violating the honor code by not reporting something that should have been reported,

and then there's CHEATING,

like pulling your cell phone out in the middle of an exam, or, as in one of the best cases shown in a recent thread: the guy who kept on filling in answers to his shelf exam when time was called, and then refusing to hand int the exam to the proctor!

 

[Coupd'Cat]

2 in my class didn't fail, but chose to leave for more activism-related lines of work which I think were probably their true calling all along--and those fields are lucky to have them.

1 guy in our class "suspended" for sexually harassing multiple students. And no, not the same guy that another thread is blowing up about

Still see him floating about the campus though don't know what he's doing or if he's joining another class.

Edit: Have a good friend who was in the class above mine and joined our class after a LOA. Had to take care of ailing grandparent & family's eviction during third year, failed a couple shelves. One of the most conscientious people I've ever met and will do good by his patients, but went through a tough time, told by multiple people he didn't have a shot at residency. Things are going well for him now in 4th year though--getting interviews, still very active in trying to make things better in our school & community, generally persevering.

Would add that the meat grinder that we are fed into through med school is particularly on the psyche for people who don't fit into the traditional mold, don't have many of the privileges and sense of belonging that other classmates may come into med school with.

 

[Mass Effect]

Do you know anyone that failed out of medical school? Do you know why they failed out? I'm struggling and I wonder why other students fail out.

I failed out as an MS 1. I failed too many classes. I had to go before the appeals committee. It was an uphill battle, but I won my appeal, dismissal was overturned. I graduated, passed the Steps, became a resident and am currently Chief Resident in my last year of residency. Applied for fellowship and interviewed every place I applied (top programs too). It's possible to overcome obstacles. Don't give up.

 

[Goro]

I failed out as an MS 1. I failed too many classes. I had to go before the appeals committee. It was an uphill battle, but I won my appeal, dismissal was overturned. I graduated, passed the Steps, became a resident and am currently Chief Resident in my last year of residency. Applied for fellowship and interviewed every place I applied (top programs too). It's possible to overcome obstacles. Don't give up.

To what do you attribute the success of your appeal? This is an inspiring story!

 

[Mass Effect]

To what do you attribute the success of your appeal? This is an inspiring story!

Well, for one, I never made enemies, so my appeals committee was full of people who didn't know me as a jerk. My appeal letter, which was 8 pages, laid out a comprehensive strategy to succeed, which included regular meetings with our education guru among other things. I think they just wanted to give me another shot. There was a catch and that was that I couldn't fail anything else for the remainder of the 4 years or it would be automatic dismissal. You can imagine the stress of walking out of every test, knowing it was the difference between becoming a doctor and not. Fortunately, I made it through pre-clinicals, then kicked ass on the wards. I did a lot of aways during 4th year and matched at my top choice. I was very, very lucky because my residency PD is amazing and while I'm not definitely not the smartest, I think he likes me because I'm very hard working and have been all along. He wrote me a glowing letter for fellowship and it's come up at every interview how strong a letter he wrote for me. He's an influential person so I know he opened doors for me that may have otherwise been closed.

 

[Coupd'Cat]

Well, for one, I never made enemies, so my appeals committee was full of people who didn't know me as a jerk. My appeal letter, which was 8 pages, laid out a comprehensive strategy to succeed, which included regular meetings with our education guru among other things. I think they just wanted to give me another shot. There was a catch and that was that I couldn't fail anything else for the remainder of the 4 years or it would be automatic dismissal. You can imagine the stress of walking out of every test, knowing it was the difference between becoming a doctor and not. Fortunately, I made it through pre-clinicals, then kicked ass on the wards. I did a lot of aways during 4th year and matched at my top choice. I was very, very lucky because my residency PD is amazing and while I'm not definitely not the smartest, I think he likes me because I'm very hard working and have been all along. He wrote me a glowing letter for fellowship and it's come up at every interview how strong a letter he wrote for me. He's an influential person so I know he opened doors for me that may have otherwise been closed.

So happy it worked out! I admire your perseverance. Thanks for sharing.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I feel your pain, I'm probably going to be dismissed, I can't seem to pass Step 1 no matter how much I study. I got this from another thread but here you go.

As someone who has failed step 1 twice, med students have very biased unrealistic views on a lot of stuff. The first being you can take any guy off the street give him FA and time to study and he can pass Step 1 I had a decent MCAT, never failed a single class in the first 2 years, and I just can’t get past this test. There is just way too much ****ing stuff to remember. Med students act as if its normal to be able to memorize everything in an 800 page book and a 2500 question Q bank, no that **** is not normal. No matter how many times I go over this **** I just can’t retain it and that’s probably genetic. A lot of med students don’t have problems with step 1 and assume because they didn’t that anybody could do it. Thats like saying anybody could be a running back in the NFL if they are willing to work hard enough.

I feel bad that this is happening to you. I'm also a student that struggled a lot with memorization on the preclinical years, especially MS1. I'm so thankful each day that I managed to reign it in and pass the step. I also hear ya when you mention the genetic thing. Some of my friends seem to memorize stuff instantly as if it were normal, while I felt I had to study around the clock all the time.

The thing about the step is that it is designed differently than your classes. You can become really good at your classes through a method that's not conductive to learning for the step. I would say that you would have benefited most from starting very early and finishing as many QBanks as you possibly could have. Adding things that helped you learn in classes would be beneficial. Some people kept notebooks about q-bank content and others made flashcards. I think if I had done flashcards based on q-bank highlights I would have done better. If you're just doing the questions and moving on, this is probably destroying you.

As for the general thread, the majority of people that left were after the fall. I know some people that repeated and did just fine later on. I even knew one kid that failed first year twice then passed the step with an average score.

 

[Menander's Bust]

I think some people never grasp how to study efficiently which is in a word, studying by application. Usually that means tons of practice questions and in addition putting serious time in. I’m in 3rd year, every 6 week rotation I read a textbook or equivalent and do AT A MINIMUM 1,000 practice questions, sometimes as many as 2,000. I do school approximately 12-15 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Other reasons for failure to succeed in Med school are usually insufficient background (I.e. did not know enough coming in and probably should not have been accepted - notice I mentioned what they knew, not what grades they got in undergrad, as you can get good grades in undergrad by memorization usually). Significant other reasons: depression, lack of motivation due to not being in the right field, not sleeping adequately (7+ hours per night), not exercising, trying to learn via cram and purge, focusing on lectures and lecture slides, which are usually worthless, life struggles (family, significant others, etc.), and so on.

 

[sammiesings]

I think some people never grasp how to study efficiently which is in a word, studying by application. Usually that means tons of practice questions and in addition putting serious time in. I’m in 3rd year, every 6 week rotation I read a textbook or equivalent and do AT A MINIMUM 1,000 practice questions, sometimes as many as 2,000. I do school approximately 12-15 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Other reasons for failure to succeed in Med school are usually insufficient background (I.e. did not know enough coming in and probably should not have been accepted - notice I mentioned what they knew, not what grades they got in undergrad, as you can get good grades in undergrad by memorization usually). Significant other reasons: depression, lack of motivation due to not being in the right field, not sleeping adequately (7+ hours per night), not exercising, trying to learn via cram and purge, focusing on lectures and lecture slides, which are usually worthless, life struggles (family, significant others, etc.), and so on.

I think this is all really valuable information especially for those of us just starting even if we're currently doing well.

In that vein, can you tell me a little more about why we shouldn't be focused on lectures? I feel like I can't do that because the bulk of my grades come from lecturer written exams. Are you referring to always looking forward to step and incorporating board materials early? Or is there actually a way to do well on lecturer written exams without focusing on lectures?

 

[Menander's Bust]

I think this is all really valuable information especially for those of us just starting even if we're currently doing well.

In that vein, can you tell me a little more about why we shouldn't be focused on lectures? I feel like I can't do that because the bulk of my grades come from lecturer written exams. Are you referring to always looking forward to step and incorporating board materials early? Or is there actually a way to do well on lecturer written exams without focusing on lectures?

I guess it depends how many questions on your tests are hyper specific to lectures. If you can do it, the best way is to always study with board relevance in mind and just pass your tests. STEP is infinitely more significant than how you do on school tests.

What a lot of people do is really learn the material their own way, reading textbooks, doing practice questions, etc., then look over the lecture slides quickly and make a note of extra things in there that are not in their textbooks. I find that people who are afraid of not passing get into a vicious cycle where they are so worried about not passing that they hyper focus on lectures at the expense of really learning the material, which makes them actually less likely to do well, which keeps them in a mode of worrying about passing, which makes them hyper focus on lectures st the expense of really learning the material, etc.

Send me a private message and we can chat more about your specific situation in school.

 

[Menander's Bust]

Also I learned this the hard way as a Classics Ph.D. Student:

If you don’t sleep, you won’t remember things.
If you don’t give your brain time off, you won’t remember things.
If you’re stressed and can’t relax and give yourself space to learn, you won’t remember things.

Seriously, the more rested, relaxed, and balanced you are, the better you will learn and remember what you learn. This is probably why those people who seem to study 10-15 hours less per week somehow do better. They acquire and retain more because their mind is in a better place. They might be smarter too, but the rest helps.

At some point in Med school you realize where you are relative to the task at hand. For me doing 3rd year, I know I’m not going to fail my shelfs and I doubt I’m going to honor them. So I focus on working hard during my rotations and learning as much as I can, not kissing up to anyone but just being genuinely nice and helpful to everyone, and I’ve found that I actually learn and retain more with that mindset than when I was more wound up stressing over every little thing.

 

[857770]

In all fairness, the words "weak student" shouldn't apply to someone in med school because you have to be a strong student at the university level just to get into med school. Use the term weak students for people that can't make it out of HS or college. A lot of PhDs underestimate how challenging getting a MD is, hate to say this but a lot of them are PhDs because they couldn't get into med school, I guess they are weak students.

This is a ridicoulous statement. In order to complete a Ph.d, you have to be good/strong with the subject matter. If you can't get through the pre-med requirements, you won't even get in to a Ph.d program in Chem or Physics or Math. Remember now: when you took your pre-med reqs, those were Ph.d's teaching you. That statement is as stupid as saying this: Well, people became bus drivers because they are not capable of driving cars and therefore can't drive taxi's. Hellooooo lights out nobody home!!!!!

 

[Goro]

This is a ridicoulous statement. In order to complete a Ph.d, you have to be good/strong with the subject matter. If you can't get through the pre-med requirements, you won't even get in to a Ph.d program in Chem or Physics or Math. Remember now: when you took your pre-med reqs, those were Ph.d's teaching you. That statement is as stupid as saying this: Well, people became bus drivers because they are not capable of driving cars and therefore can't drive taxi's. Hellooooo lights out nobody home!!!!!

Indeed. This may come as a surprise to some SDNers, but not all of us PhDs wanted to become doctors. I was pre-med for about 10 minutes.

 

[futuremdforme]

This is a ridicoulous statement. In order to complete a Ph.d, you have to be good/strong with the subject matter. If you can't get through the pre-med requirements, you won't even get in to a Ph.d program in Chem or Physics or Math. Remember now: when you took your pre-med reqs, those were Ph.d's teaching you. That statement is as stupid as saying this: Well, people became bus drivers because they are not capable of driving cars and therefore can't drive taxi's. Hellooooo lights out nobody home!!!!!

Of my friends from HS and university, the better students got PhDs. IMO you have to be smarter for a science PhD than for MD, but you have to work harder for MD than for PhD. (obviously both are smart, both work hard, but this refers to the minimal requirement to pass each one.)

 

[857770]

Well my Ph.d is in Geophysics and I am a medical student doing rotations. Hands down Ph.d is NOT LESS WORK! Also, I have had students in my cohort (they were getting great grades) that were asked to drop to a Masters because they were not creative enough when it came to dissertation/research.

 

[Giovanotto]

Well my Ph.d is in Geophysics and I am a medical student doing rotations. Hands down Ph.d is NOT LESS WORK! Also, I have had students in my cohort (they were getting great grades) that were asked to drop to a Masters because they were not creative enough when it came to dissertation/research.

I have friends who completed doctorates at top programs in engineering and computer science and lmao, they were such slackers. Not buying it.

 

[857770]

I am not buying yours either. You didn't experience both, but I did!

 

[W19]

In all fairness, the words "weak student" shouldn't apply to someone in med school because you have to be a strong student at the university level just to get into med school. Use the term weak students for people that can't make it out of HS or college. A lot of PhDs underestimate how challenging getting a MD is, hate to say this but a lot of them are PhDs because they couldn't get into med school, I guess they are weak students.

I agree with your first sentence. I go to a low tier school and my classmates are pretty smart. Heck, I was a strong student in nursing school while working 4o hrs/wk, and now I am what people would consider a 'weak' student in med school. Med students tend to underestimate their intelligence.

 

[W19]

The thing about the step is that it is designed differently than your classes. You can become really good at your classes through a method that's not conductive to learning for the step. I would say that you would have benefited most from starting very early and finishing as many QBanks as you possibly could have. Adding things that helped you learn in classes would be beneficial. Some people kept notebooks about q-bank content and others made flashcards. I think if I had done flashcards based on q-bank highlights I would have done better. If you're just doing the questions and moving on, this is probably destroying you.

BINGO! I wish I figured that out from day 1 in med school that method would work best for me. I tried everything except that method, and none of them seem to work well. Though I did not fail any class in med school and passed step1/2 on first attempt (not with high scores), but had I used that method since first year of med school, I would have done a lot better.

I used that method in the last 2 1/2 wks of my step2 prep, and I went from 214 on UWSA1 to 238 on UWSA2, and ultimately scored close to the average of the 2 in CK...

 

[mehc012]

Basic sciences by itself is not hard. It's the testing that is hard because you are dealing with third and fourth order questions which is a big difference from the "name this bone" in undergrad. I don't know anybody who walked into an exam feeling 100% confident that they knew everything about everything.

Being that medical school moves so fast, those who do well are those who adapt and figure out how to test well on the material.

I went to a Caribbean program so the attrition was much higher because people are not screened like in the US. But even there, nobody was stupid. If you can teach a monkey to test well, the monkey can become a doctor too.

REALLY depends on the undergrad. And the med school, I suppose. Neither my undergrad nor my med school offered multiple choice tests, and I'd say that conceptually speaking, the undergrad tests were an order of magnitude higher.
It is admittedly hard to be 100% confident on anything, but that's more of an organizational thing in my book. I walk into my med school tests feeling confident on everything I've covered, but uncertain whether I ought to have covered other material. Compare that to a standardized exam like the MCAT, where you could walk in on test day knowing there was nothing they could throw at you that you hadn't prepped for, because there was an explicit list of what to cover.

 

[Goro]

I agree with your first sentence. I go to a low tier school and my classmates are pretty smart. Heck, I was a strong student in nursing school while working 4o hrs/wk, and now I am what people would consider a 'weak' student in med school. Med students tend to underestimate their intelligence.

I'm appalled that some of you can't understand the simple concept that one can be a smart pre-med, but a weak medical student, even to the point of failing. Your GPAs don't define who you are as a person, either. A struggling student is not a bad person, either.

 

[arcus]

I know someone who failed out of Residency. He did well academically during M1-M2, scored around the mean for Step 1 and 2, matched, then got kicked out of Residency after first year in a 3 year program.

Now he has an MD Degree and lives with his parents. Wont return emails and no one knows what happened. Sadly the guy had a chip on his shoulder, bragged a great deal about his school test scores, treated women like objects of pleasure, had no close friends and called everyone “haters”. He was generally Axis II in the worst way.

It isnt enough to pass Step 1/2, MD school and Residency. You gotta pass at life. Roll with the punches or be a failure with or without an MD degree

Cue that Failedatlife guy on SDN

 

[libertyyne]

I know someone who failed out of Residency. He did well academically during M1-M2, scored around the mean for Step 1 and 2, matched, then got kicked out of Residency after first year in a 3 year program.

Now he has an MD Degree and lives with his parents. Wont return emails and no one knows what happened. Sadly the guy had a chip on his shoulder, bragged a great deal about his school test scores, treated women like objects of pleasure, had no close friends and called everyone “haters”. He was generally Axis II in the worst way.

It isnt enough to pass Step 1/2, MD school and Residency. You gotta pass at life. Roll with the punches or be a failure with or without an MD degree

Cue that Failedatlife guy on SDN

Why did the person get kicked out of residency ?

 

[Goro]

Why did the person get kicked out of residency ?

Our wise resident and attending colleagues have reported that people get kicked out for personality issues, being unteachable, substance abuse issues or being threats to patient safety. I'm sure that the list is longer.

 

[IlDestriero]

The resident I worked with that got fired was a completely inappropriate fit for anesthesia. Anesthesia isn’t a chill field where you just stool sit and collect the loot. Though a good anesthesiologist will make it look that way.
When the stuff hits the fan, you have to get it done, often alone. He couldn’t. He also had a bad attitude. Though that only helped make the decision easier for everyone.
He was supported in his transition to Family Medicine. He wasn’t untrainable, just a poor fit.
There was an intern in my class that got fired. He was a disaster. Tested very well, but had very poor clinical judgement, impossible to remediate, poor insight, seemed to lack common sense, lazy, the list goes on. He could pass the tests, but not do the job.
I’d be surprised if he’s a physician in the US today.


--
Il Destriero

 

[libertyyne]

The resident I worked with that got fired was a completely inappropriate fit for anesthesia. Anesthesia isn’t a chill field where you just stool sit and collect the loot. Though a good anesthesiologist will make it look that way.
When the stuff hits the fan, you have to get it done, often alone. He couldn’t. He also had a bad attitude. Though that only helped make the decision easier for everyone.
He was supported in his transition to Family Medicine. He wasn’t untrainable, just a poor fit.
There was an intern in my class that got fired. He was a disaster. Tested very well, but had very poor clinical judgement, impossible to remediate, poor insight, seemed to lack common sense, lazy, the list goes on. He could pass the tests, but not do the job.
I’d be surprised if he’s a physician in the US today.


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Il Destriero

Do you think it was a maturity issue for the inappropriate fit for anasthesia person considering the bad attitude? The second person sounds like a robot.

 

[Stagg737]

Why did the person get kicked out of residency ?

I've heard of a handful of people being fired from residency, and almost all were surgical residents who didn't have the technical knowledge/skills to operate or just didn't have the physical stamina/capabilities to be successful. They're not necessarily dumb people (by medical standards), they just couldn't translate their med school abilities to "hands on" work and were eventually "encouraged" to switch into other fields.

 

[IlDestriero]

Do you think it was a maturity issue for the inappropriate fit for anasthesia person considering the bad attitude? The second person sounds like a robot.

No. He couldn’t function independently in a real emergency.
A robot would have been better than the second dude. Really.


--
Il Destriero

 

[rilte4]

Do all schools have to do the day at the State Medical Board where they watch each hearing? That was a terrifying couple hours. Extremely effective for scaring the living **** (and any academic/professional dishonesty you have left in you) out of most folks

 

[libertyyne]

Do all schools have to do the day at the State Medical Board where they watch each hearing? That was a terrifying couple hours. Extremely effective for scaring the living **** (and any academic/professional dishonesty you have left in you) out of most folks

i would love to sit in on one of those.

 

[rilte4]

i would love to sit in on one of those.

The day I was there I saw someone get their license permanently revoked. The case had been heavily covered in the media, and the room was full of press. Didn't get much sleep that night.

 

[psychMDhopefully]

I'm appalled that some of you can't understand the simple concept that one can be a smart pre-med, but a weak medical student, even to the point of failing.

We all get that, but you never say weak "medical" student, that would make more sense, you always say weak student.

 

[Goro]

We all get that, but you never say weak "medical" student, that would make more sense, you always say weak student.

I would hope that one would gather from my posts, especially in this thread, that I have been referring to medical students.

 

[GadRads]

It is quite rare for a resident to be a poor fit for their chosen specialty. The vast majority who start, finish without complications. A surgery attending once said that as a resident, his PD felt he was incapable of doing general surgery and indicated it was a poor fit for his talents. He persisted and is a good surgeon without any issues.

More than likely, I suspect those deemed as incapable probably do not have as much interest or motivation to continuously fine-tune their knowledge or skills. Perhaps some of the clinical disposition for that specialty aren't what they can adapt to. For example, I don't like emergencies or making decisions in a split second, as such I ruled out EM or anesthesia. Richard Axel, a Nobel laureate, admits to being a terrible medical/clinical trainee, but his passion was in research and he seemed to end up in medicine by default. A current anesthesiologist was encouraged to leave an IM program. She had difficulties managing multiple patients, however she just hated doing it and preferred to deal with one patient at a time. I suspect this pattern is common for residents who change specialties.

The resident I worked with that got fired was a completely inappropriate fit for anesthesia. Anesthesia isn’t a chill field where you just stool sit and collect the loot. Though a good anesthesiologist will make it look that way.
When the stuff hits the fan, you have to get it done, often alone. He couldn’t. He also had a bad attitude. Though that only helped make the decision easier for everyone.
He was supported in his transition to Family Medicine. He wasn’t untrainable, just a poor fit.
There was an intern in my class that got fired. He was a disaster. Tested very well, but had very poor clinical judgement, impossible to remediate, poor insight, seemed to lack common sense, lazy, the list goes on. He could pass the tests, but not do the job.
I’d be surprised if he’s a physician in the US today.


--
Il Destriero

 

[3member]

Well, for one, I never made enemies, so my appeals committee was full of people who didn't know me as a jerk. My appeal letter, which was 8 pages, laid out a comprehensive strategy to succeed, which included regular meetings with our education guru among other things. I think they just wanted to give me another shot. There was a catch and that was that I couldn't fail anything else for the remainder of the 4 years or it would be automatic dismissal. You can imagine the stress of walking out of every test, knowing it was the difference between becoming a doctor and not. Fortunately, I made it through pre-clinicals, then kicked ass on the wards. I did a lot of aways during 4th year and matched at my top choice. I was very, very lucky because my residency PD is amazing and while I'm not definitely not the smartest, I think he likes me because I'm very hard working and have been all along. He wrote me a glowing letter for fellowship and it's come up at every interview how strong a letter he wrote for me. He's an influential person so I know he opened doors for me that may have otherwise been closed.

Wow ngl this made me tear up a little

Glad the profession has people like you

 

[naijacardriodoc]

It is quite rare for a resident to be a poor fit for their chosen specialty. The vast majority who start, finish without complications. A surgery attending once said that as a resident, his PD felt he was incapable of doing general surgery and indicated it was a poor fit for his talents. He persisted and is a good surgeon without any issues.

More than likely, I suspect those deemed as incapable probably do not have as much interest or motivation to continuously fine-tune their knowledge or skills. Perhaps some of the clinical disposition for that specialty aren't what they can adapt to. For example, I don't like emergencies or making decisions in a split second, as such I ruled out EM or anesthesia. Richard Axel, a Nobel laureate, admits to being a terrible medical/clinical trainee, but his passion was in research and he seemed to end up in medicine by default. A current anesthesiologist was encouraged to leave an IM program. She had difficulties managing multiple patients, however she just hated doing it and preferred to deal with one patient at a time. I suspect this pattern is common for residents who change specialties.

thank you for outlining this! this is why I'm paying so much attention (talking with upper levels, shadowing, rotations) to not only choose what I'm competitive for, but also what suits my personality. Essentially, what specialty can I REALLY see myself doing, liking, what am I good at or can learn to be good at and what I am competitive for. It makes life/medical school so much better to deal with.

 

[Michanel]

Are you M1?

 

[Snoopy2006]

In my school, we had about 8 or 9 that couldn't complete the 4 years. Most happened in the first 3 months of med school. They fell into a couple groups:

-Not that committed. These were people who had other careers before, and were still waiting for them. When the going got tough (and it was tough for everyone in the beginning) they realized they'd rather go back to their original careers rather than persevere. My guess is most of these people would have made it through medical school if they had grinded through. One of them actually was allowed to come back to medical school 2 years later and is graduating this year.

-Not smart enough. Sounds harsh, but just like not everyone has the athletic ability to play in the NBA, not everyone has the capability to make it through the memorization of details and clinical application of concepts that med school requires. The med school admissions process isn't perfect. There were several people who got in who probably shouldn't have. To a question asked earlier in the thread, I actually agree that not everyone has the capability to make it past Step 1. It's easy to say in hindsight after you've taken the test, but it's a monster of a test with an incredible breadth of memorization required. Not everyone can get there.

-Unprofessional. We had one student who tried to podcast from home (not his apartment, but his parents' home 2-3 hours away), missed all mandatory labs/small groups hoping no one would notice, and then tried to just show up for the exams without studying properly. It was a disaster.

-Mental health issues: these were surprisingly rare in our class, although people are not always forthcoming with these details so I suspect I just don't know about these cases.

-Just failed too many tests. Then there were students who after 7-8 months of M1 year, had just failed too many tests. Our school was committed to getting them through, maybe too committed. Most of these students repeated a year (in some cases, two) and graduated in 5 or 6 years. Some just couldn't get past M1 or M2 despite several tries, and had to find other careers.



People are being far too sensitive about @Goro's term. If you're failing, you're by definition a weak student. This certainly doesn't mean someone is unintelligent, but by definition a weak student is one with academic failure. It's also not a permanent label. Most people I know that struggled with medical school at some point (failing tests) were able to turn it around. My suggestion is to stay as even-keeled as possible (mental health comes first), see how your friends/classmates are succeeding, and explore a variety of study options until you find one that works for you. The volume of material in medical school forces many people to change their study habits and style dramatically.

 

[Eye-eye]

It sounds like a lot of other med schools are really harsh compared to mine, or perhaps take in students with different capabilities and drives. My school has an intense first course covering fall MS1 over physio, anatomy, histo, and embryo, known as being the hardest part of the first 2 years. Each year 0-5 students fail the course, but it's exceedingly rare for them not to simply take the year off for research and come back - and in talking to these students this year, they all seem to be doing great. I know there are also many opportunities to remediate if you just fail a test or two in a course. Honestly, I thought it was pretty hard to fail out (if you're trying, and with all the money you're shelling out, who isn't trying?), at least from my school's stats on it, and all the places I interviewed. Crazy...

 

[Eye-eye]

Well, for one, I never made enemies, so my appeals committee was full of people who didn't know me as a jerk. My appeal letter, which was 8 pages, laid out a comprehensive strategy to succeed, which included regular meetings with our education guru among other things. I think they just wanted to give me another shot. There was a catch and that was that I couldn't fail anything else for the remainder of the 4 years or it would be automatic dismissal. You can imagine the stress of walking out of every test, knowing it was the difference between becoming a doctor and not. Fortunately, I made it through pre-clinicals, then kicked ass on the wards. I did a lot of aways during 4th year and matched at my top choice. I was very, very lucky because my residency PD is amazing and while I'm not definitely not the smartest, I think he likes me because I'm very hard working and have been all along. He wrote me a glowing letter for fellowship and it's come up at every interview how strong a letter he wrote for me. He's an influential person so I know he opened doors for me that may have otherwise been closed.

Jesus... that's is extremely impressive and admirable. I'm doing pretty well in my classes, but if I walked into every test knowing a fail means failing out of the program, I sincerely think I would have a nervous breakdown. Just holding it together under those conditions is impressive to me. Good job!

 

[Pre-somethingoranother]

@Goro... I like you. Thank you for "keeping it real."

 

[wholeheartedly]

i would love to sit in on one of those.

Several states make disciplinary actions against physicians public record. Probably not as interesting as being there in person, but here are some very disturbing cases just click on the public action pdfs

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