Do you support water fluoridation?

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Do you beleive that fluoride should be added to our tap water

  • No.

    Votes: 19 22.1%
  • Yes.

    Votes: 67 77.9%

  • Total voters
    86
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MOUTHLOVER

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just wondering how many of you support water fluoridation. Thought it would relevant since it's apparently good for preventing cavities...

here's an interesting website if you don't know anything about it.

http://www.fluoridealert.org/

also, here is a letter from one of the leaders in the topic of fluoride in Canada.

Dr. Hardy Limeback, BSc, PhD, DDS
Associate Professor and Head, Preventive Dentistry
University of Toronto
Toronto, Ontario, M5G-1G6
Fax (416) 979-4936
Tel(416) 979-4929
E-mail:[email protected]
April, 2000

To whom it may concern:

Why I am now officially opposed to adding fluoride to drinking water

Since April of 1999, I have publicly decried the addition of fluoride, especially hydrofluosilicic acid, to drinking water for the purpose of preventing tooth decay. The following summarize my reasons.

New evidence for lack of effectiveness of fluoridation in modern times.

1. Modern studies (published in the 1980's 1990's) show dental decay rates are so low in North America that the effects of water fluoridation cannot be measured. Because of the low prevalence of dental decay, water fluoridation studies today must be carefully conducted to correct for mobility of subjects between fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas, access to fluoride from other sources, the lack of blinding and problems with the `halo' effect. Even when very large sample sizes are used to obtain statistically significant results, the benefit of water fluoridation is not a clinically relevant one (the number of tooth surfaces saved from dental decay per person is less than one half). Recent studies show that halting fluoridation will either result in only a marginal increase in dental decay which cannot be detected or no increase in dental decay at all.

2. The major reasons for the general decline of tooth decay worldwide, both in non-fluoridated and fluoridated areas, is the widespread use of fluoridated toothpaste, improved diets, and overall improved general and dental health (antibiotics, preservatives, hygiene etc).

3. There is now a better understanding of how fluoride prevents dental decay. What little benefit fluoridated water may still provide is derived primarily through topical means (after the teeth erupt and come in contact with fluorides in the oral cavity). Fluoride does not need to be swallowed to be effective. It is not an essential nutrient. Nor should it be considered a desirable `supplement' for children living in non-fluoridated areas. Fluoride ingestion delays tooth eruption and this may account for some of the differences seen in the past between fluoridated and non-fluoridated areas (i.e. dental decay is simply postponed). No fluoridation study has ever separated out the systemic effects of fluoride. Even if there were a systemic benefit from ingestion of fluoride, it would be miniscule and clinically irrelevant. The notion that systemic fluorides are needed in non-fluoridated areas is an outdated one that should be abandoned altogether.

New evidence for potential serious harm from long-term fluoride ingestion.

1. Hydrofluorosilicic acid is recovered from the smokestack scrubbers during the production of phosphate fertilizer and sold to most of the major cities in North America, which use this industrial grade source of fluoride to fluoridate drinking water, rather than the more expensive pharmaceutical grade sodium fluoride salt. Fluorosilicates have never been tested for safety in humans. Furthermore, these industrial-grade chemicals are contaminated with trace amounts of heavy metals such as lead, arsenic and radium that accumulate in humans. Increased lead levels have been found in children living in fluoridated communities. Osteosarcoma (bone cancer) has been shown to be associated with radium in the drinking water. Long-term ingestion of these harmful elements should be avoided altogether.

2. Half of all ingested fluoride remains in the skeletal system and accumulates with age. Several recent epidemiological studies suggest that only a few years of fluoride ingestion from fluoridated water increases the risk for bone fracture. The relationship between the milder symptoms of bone fluorosis (joint pain and arthritic symptoms) and fluoride accumulation in humans has never been investigated. People unable to eliminate fluoride under normal conditions (kidney impairment) or people who ingest more than average amounts of water (athletes, diabetics) are more at risk to be affected by the toxic effects of fluoride accumulation.

3. There is a dose-dependent relationship between the prevalence/severity of dental fluorosis and fluoride ingestion. When dental decay rates were high, a certain amount of dental fluorosis was considered an acceptable `trade off' of providing an `optimum' dose of 1.0 ppm fluoride in the water. However, studies published in the 1980's and 1990's have shown that dental fluorosis has increased dramatically in North America. Infants and toddlers are especially at risk for dental fluorosis of the front teeth since it is during the first 3 years of life that the permanent front teeth are the most sensitive to the effects of fluoride. Children fed formula made with fluoridated tap water are at higher risk to develop dental fluorosis. A relatively small percentage of the children affected with dental fluorosis have the more severe kind that requires extensive restorative dental work to correct the damage. The long-term effect of fluoride accumulation on dentin colour and biomechanics is also unknown. Generalized dental fluorosis of all the permanent teeth indicates that the bone is a major source of the excess fluoride. The effect of this excess amount of fluoride in bone is unknown. Whether stress bone fractures occur more often in children with dental fluorosis has not been studied.

4. A lifetime of excessive fluoride ingestion will undoubtedly have detrimental effects on a number of biological systems in the body and it is illogical to assume that tooth enamel is the only tissue affected by low daily doses of fluoride ingestion. Fluoride activates G-protein and a number of cascade reactions in the cell. At high concentrations it is both mitogenic and genotoxic. Some published studies point to fluoride's interference with the reproductive system, the pineal gland and thyroid function. Fluoride is a proven carcinogen in humans exposed to high industrial levels. No study has yet been conducted to determine the level of fluoride that bone cells are exposed to when fluoride-rich bone is turned over. Thus, the issue of fluoride causing bone cancer cannot be dismissed as being a non-issue since carefully conducted animal and human cancer studies using the exact same chemicals added to our drinking water have not been carried out.

The issue of mass medication of an unapproved drug without the expressed informed consent of each individual must also be addressed. The dose of fluoride cannot be controlled. Fluoride as a drug has contaminated most processed foods and beverages throughout North America. Individuals who are susceptible to fluoride's harmful effects cannot avoid ingesting this drug. This presents a medico-legal and ethical dilemma and sets water fluoridation apart from vaccination as a public health measure where doses and distribution can be controlled. The rights of individuals to enjoy the freedom from involuntary fluoride medication certainly outweigh the right of society to enforce this public health measure, especially when the evidence of benefit is marginal at best.

Based on the points outlined briefly above, the evidence has convinced me that the benefits of water fluoridation no longer outweigh the risks. The money saved from halting water fluoridation programs can be more wisely spent on concentrated public health efforts to reduce dental decay in the populations that are still at risk and this will, at the same time, lower the incidence of the harmful side effects that a large segment of the general population is currently experiencing because of this outdated public health measure.

Sincerely,

Dr. Hardy Limeback BSc PhD (Biochemistry) DDS

Head, Preventive Dentistry

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lol first the root canal thread now this.
You need to chillax from those conspiracy websites.
 
lol first the root canal thread now this.
You need to chillax from those conspiracy websites.

haha, I think I just got caught up in it all today ahah... I don't think I agree with the root canal thing, I just wanted to hear what people would say... I personally don't think fluoride should be in the water. I believe in making my own health decisions... 🙂
 
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Fluoridation of drinking water has been called the second greatest public health achievement of the 20th century.
 
Hey I wrote a 20 page research paper on this topic.

Decades of solid (tedious, boring) research suggest water fluoridation is safe and effective. There were a couple of concerning studies coming out of the University of Tokyo, but those were discredited.
 
Hey I wrote a 20 page research paper on this topic.

Decades of solid (tedious, boring) research suggest water fluoridation is safe and effective. There were a couple of concerning studies coming out of the University of Tokyo, but those were discredited.

So did you solely investigate it's effects on teeth or have researched it's effects on our general health. I am not doubting it's benefit to our teeth when it's comes in contact with them, but I am concerned about its effects on our body in general...
 
Any way we can read that paper you wrote? Might be an interesting read 🙂
 
Just drink Brawndo... It has what you need. It has electrolytes..
 
By the way... Caries is the most common DISEASE in the world. With so many people neglecting their own bodies, adding fluoride to water is the least that can be done to cut down on the problem.
 
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By the way I'm proud to say my city has removed it from the water 😉
 
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Did you also hear that the US government was really responsible for 9/11? It was apparently a ploy to divert attention from vaccines causing autism. True story
 
Did you also hear that the US government was really responsible for 9/11? It was apparently a ploy to divert attention from vaccines causing autism. True story

And fluoride is is actually used for mind control....that's why I only drink Brawndo it has what plants need.
 
Mona-Lisa---Bitch-Please.jpg
 
Fluoridation of drinking water has been called the second greatest public health achievement of the 20th century.

so you believe this too? :laugh:

probably said by the same people who put lead in petrol, and tell us that cow's milk is good for you :laugh: they probably made this commercial too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCMzjJjuxQI

Did you also hear that the US government was really responsible for 9/11? It was apparently a ploy to divert attention from vaccines causing autism. True story

haha well that's not what they say, but thanks for your creativity.🙄

from what I've heard these conspiracists say is that it was just an event to give the US a reason to go to war in middle east and there hands on some oil :laugh: ... doesn't seem to farfetched to me. I've found that most Canadians consider this to be true lol😛
 
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There is a substantial sect in the US who actually believe that "911 was an inside job". Sadly, It was not because of his creativity.


so you believe this too? :laugh:



haha well that's not what they say, but thanks for your creativity.🙄

from what I've heard these conspiracists say is that it was just an event to give the US a reason to go to war in middle east and there hands on some oil :laugh: ... doesn't seem to farfetched to me. I've found that most Canadians consider this to be true lol😛
 
There is a substantial sect in the US who actually believe that "911 was an inside job". Sadly, It was not because of his creativity.

I think you've misunderstood 🙂 I am not talking about the fact that it was an inside job. I'm talking about the autism thing ... 😉
 
Now if you would like a better perspective, I suggest that you watch this video 🙂

http://www.fluoridealert.org/videos.aspx .... if its too long go to 25:00 😉

by the way apparently the instance of dental carries have decreased in an equal amount in modern countries whether they have fluoride in the water or not 🙂

and yes it seems to help for dental carries when the tooth is exposed to it, but it has no benefit when it is ingested

now, there are studies showing that fluoride causes brain damage and even may result in having a lower IQ among a plethora of other biological problems.... keeping this in mind (even if it isn't so valid), I cannot justify the risk for the possible benefit
 
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I feel like the Fluoride and X-ray crowd overlook the dose dependent nature of toxicity. Rather, they tend to just name something as "toxic" and other things as "natural" or "safe" based on its perceived intrinsic properties.

Having said that - I can take or leave fluoride in water. I don't have a huge concern for public health.
 
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I feel like the Fluoride and X-ray crowd overlook the dose dependent nature of toxicity. Rather, they tend to just name something as "toxic" and other things as "natural" or "safe" based on its perceived intrinsic properties.

Having said that - I can take or leave fluoride in water. I don't have a huge concern for public health.

yes, I can see what you are saying. But apparently the dose of fluoride in the water in quite high... high enough that you can notice dental fluorosis (I've seen many people with this problem)... consider an olympic athlete, who trains everyday/all-day, and sweats ALOT - look at Michael Phelps he eats 12,000 calories a day - think about how much water they have to drink! It's way way way more than the usual chap sitting on the coach all day! they are going to be exposed to far more fluoride!

If it truly causes brain damage/lowers IQ, is that why we have some called a Jock (someone who exercises a lot - probably drinks a lot of water - and is quite dumb)? 😕 :idea: just a thought....
 
lol. Stereotypes are just those... I have meet many intelligent athletes and lots of dumb couch potatoes. I would be interested to read about the pharmacokinetics of fluoride. How much of it actually enters the body - considering the lumen of the GI is technically outside our body. We agree that dose is important; however, I have not seen what is considered "a lot". Just that there is more fluoride in water than breast milk and, as you pointed out, if you drink more water you get more fluoride. How does an average dose compare to Fl. LD 50? I'm very skeptical of the IQ claims from the video.
 
lol. Stereotypes are just those... I have meet many intelligent athletes and lots of dumb couch potatoes. I would be interested to read about the pharmacokinetics of fluoride. How much of it actually enters the body - considering the lumen of the GI is technically outside our body. We agree that dose is important; however, I have not seen what is considered "a lot". Just that there is more fluoride in water than breast milk and, as you pointed out, if you drink more water you get more fluoride. How does an average dose compare to Fl. LD 50? I'm very skeptical of the IQ claims from the video.

yeah I agree, these things would be very interesting to know. I feel like the understanding of the effects of fluoride are not well enough understood to be putting it in the water... it just doesn't make sense to me. The only thing that seems to make sense is that adding it to water is a much cheaper form of disposal of this byproduct.

by the way here are some sources about the IQ lower claims http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/brain/index.aspx
 
so you believe this too? :laugh:

probably said by the same people who put lead in petrol, and tell us that cow's milk is good for you :laugh: they probably made this commercial too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCMzjJjuxQI



haha well that's not what they say, but thanks for your creativity.🙄

from what I've heard these conspiracists say is that it was just an event to give the US a reason to go to war in middle east and there hands on some oil :laugh: ... doesn't seem to farfetched to me. I've found that most Canadians consider this to be true lol😛

I've got a friend who also hates on.cow milk. Can you explain your reasoning?
 
I've got a friend who also hates on.cow milk. Can you explain your reasoning?

Hey, there are so many reasons. I don't know where to start. In short, there seems to be no bennefit in consuming dairy products, only drawbacks. . . By the way, I have stopped consuming all dairy products for a number of years now.


Here is a very informative lecture outlining some of the reasons, I highly suggest watching it.. http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/media/169/304-udderly-amazing/
 
Hey, there are so many reasons. I don't know where to start. In short, there seems to be no bennefit in consuming dairy products, only drawbacks. . . By the way, I have stopped consuming all dairy products for a number of years now.


Here is a very informative lecture outlining some of the reasons, I highly suggest watching it.. http://amazingdiscoveries.tv/media/169/304-udderly-amazing/

Id rather see papers.... what would you say if someone were to counter that this is all a bunch of.overblown alarmist Hipster fear mongering propagated by the same people who hate on fluoride and vaccines?
 
Id rather see papers.... what would you say if someone were to counter that this is all a bunch of.overblown alarmist Hipster fear mongering propagated by the same people who hate on fluoride and vaccines?


Well this guy is a zoologist and his lectures are filled with excerpts from medical journals. All properly sourced and cited... You will see check it out
 
Non medical personnel have a bad habit of misappropriating data. We had this discussion on the Med board awhile back and any of the papers cited typically do not conclude what is being suggested or are published in very sketchy places like blogs or natural health literature.
 
Non medical personnel have a bad habit of misappropriating data. We had this discussion on the Med board awhile back and any of the papers cited typically do not conclude what is being suggested or are published in very sketchy places like blogs or natural health literature.

Yes, taking things out of context can be very misleading. I invite you to watch the lecture and look up the articles as they are cited. If you refuse, then it seems that you are accepting ignorance on the subject.

Also i invite you to find medical research in support of the consumption of dairy products.

Also if you investigate the largest nutritional study ever conducted (by Cornell, Oxford and the Chinese government) called the china study you may gain some insight... Also the main investigators are à Physician 😉 (Thomas campbell) and Colin Campbell a biochemist

John mcdougal another md just for you has made some nice contributions to our knowledge. Here's a lecture from him: http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=TJvrlwnEqbs

Is dairy good for you? Well an excellent word has been invented to describe such nonsense... BROSCIENCE
 
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Been there done that. The first second of the lecture already contains a very unfortunate hypocrisy.... human milk low in protein so cow milk bad. So do the paleo diet! 😀. I added that part because of the common overlap in this group of people. Their proposed problems and solutions are often the same. It's dietary homeopathy 😉
 
Been there done that. The first second of the lecture already contains a very unfortunate hypocrisy.... human milk low in protein so cow milk bad. So do the paleo diet! 😀. I added that part because of the common overlap in this group of people. Their proposed problems and solutions are often the same. It's dietary homeopathy 😉

Going back to the out of context thing... 😉 good luck in the real world buddy
 
Non medical personnel have a bad habit of misappropriating data. We had this discussion on the Med board awhile back and any of the papers cited typically do not conclude what is being suggested or are published in very sketchy places like blogs or natural health literature.

This is so true it is not even funny.

OP: IMO, there are many things that are far more pressing that the issue of water fluoridation. Things like poor nutritional intake, tanning, smoking, alcoholism, etc are far more dangerous and warrent much more of my attention. This is just me though 😀
 
Going back to the out of context thing... 😉 good luck in the real world buddy

And the same to you 👍 although by posts alone it appears I have more experience in the real world and you are loving in neverland 😉
 
And the same to you 👍 although by posts alone it appears I have more experience in the real world and you are loving in neverland 😉

I didn't know that post count was proportional to real world experience. Good to know 🙄
 
I didn't know that post count was proportional to real world experience. Good to know 🙄

👍 hahahaha


This is so true it is not even funny.

OP: IMO, there are many things that are far more pressing that the issue of water fluoridation. Things like poor nutritional intake, tanning, smoking, alcoholism, etc are far more dangerous and warrent much more of my attention. This is just me though 😀

Yes I agree that those things are all very important! It is just uncomfortable for me to be forced into something as it is in the case of fluoride. I also beleive that we must be weary of what is presented to us by a government that is driven by money... That is one of the unfortunate drawbacks of a right wing state.
 
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I didn't know that post count was proportional to real world experience. Good to know 🙄

Post content. Nice try
Unless we are really getting on board with the reality of the fluoride and milk scare tactics :what:
 
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Haha so your post content, displays your increased life experience. Sorry pal, I won't believe something that isn't backed by evidence :laugh:

The evidence would be the anecdotal nonsense you're spinning. Seriously.... you were there when you said it weren't you? 😕🙄 it isn't based in the "real world"
 
Yes I agree that those things are all very important! It is just uncomfortable for me to be forced into something as it is in the case of fluoride. I also beleive that we must be weary of what is presented to us by a government that is driven by money... That is one of the unfortunate drawbacks of a right wing state.

Thats fair. 🙂

As far as The China Study, I have a few hesitations with the book but thats for a different reason haha
 
The evidence would be the anecdotal nonsense you're spinning. Seriously.... you were there when you said it weren't you? 😕🙄 it isn't based in the "real world"

So how are MOUTHLOVER's posts evidence of your life experience? I'm confused... 😕
 
The evidence would be the anecdotal nonsense you're spinning. Seriously.... you were there when you said it weren't you? 😕🙄 it isn't based in the "real world"

Well, in my opinion the purpose of an argument/debate is to challenge your current beliefs and ideas so that they can evolve as you modify and improve them.

I have given you a plethora of evidence based on solid research (whether you call it anecdotal or not). Now, I have asked you to provide some evidence to counter my claims.

Where is it? Does it exist? Please, I'm begging you. I don't want to be the guy spinning "anecdotal evidence" 🙄

Please back-up your claims... Bro😉
 
You're right... my bad.


dont drink fluoridated milk! It will give you teh AIDS!
 
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