Do you think there is an andvantage on pass/fail vs. grading system?

[tissy]

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Do you think there is an andvantage on pass/fail vs. grading system?

 

[INFNITE]

in a grading system, students can get very cut-throat and it really adds a ton to the stress level of dental school. A Pass-fail system promotes students working together and encourages people to share for example useful study material or information. Even for a pass/fail/honors system like Columbia, students can occasionally get slightly competitive, but it is still nowhere near as bad as it could be with an A-B-C system.

 

[rocknightmare]

what is the grade need to get honors at columbia?

 

[I'mFillingFine]

in a grading system, students can get very cut-throat and it really adds a ton to the stress level of dental school. A Pass-fail system promotes students working together and encourages people to share for example useful study material or information. Even for a pass/fail/honors system like Columbia, students can occasionally get slightly competitive, but it is still nowhere near as bad as it could be with an A-B-C system.

Sounds great that Columbia's pass-fail system is great for lessening competition, but it's not true that actual grades cause people to be "cut-throat" or more stressed out than anywhere else. It totally depends on the school, and I haven't noticed much competition at all. There is tons of individual competition...you can tell people are studying very hard and pushing themselves. But everyone, at least here, is working together all the time and teaching each other, and the closest it gets to competition is maybe a bit of score-sharing after an exam.

For pass-fail schools, does it vary what general percentages are required for pass/honors? Like do some schools want a certain "grade" on an exam to pass someone (85 or whatever), or is it more subjective for the professor?

 

[Holy Thursday]

Do you think there is an andvantage on pass/fail vs. grading system?

Just to see this from another point of view:
1. P/F can be just as cut-throat. I mean, if your school is P/F, but also based on a curve, then there will always be ppl who want you to do really bad so it helps lower the pass for them.
2. Even in P/F, there are a ton of other ways that the school can (and will) rank you.
3. In P/F, profs often make ALL test questions hard b/c they figure that it is P/F. In a traditional grading system, profs put easy, medium, and hard questions on an exam.

 

[totalballistic]

I graduated from a P/F dental school and I am so grateful that I did. If there were grades a middle rank student in my class would be in the top five in another school, since the caliber of our class was already high in terms of DAT and GPA. would you really want to be ranked and compared to your classmates who went to MIT or Harvard for undergrad? i surely wouldn't.

fyi.. downside... if you're thinking about specializing many programs get frustrated that they have to rely solely on National board scores. and there are a few programs regardless of the specialty that are likely to NOT grant interviews to schools that do not rank their students

 

[TheNobleTooth]

So which dental schools use the pass/fail system?

I know UConn, Columbia and UCSF use the pass/fail/honor system.

But any other schools too?

 

[guerro]

Case and Harvard have a P/F system

 

[DREDAY]

I got to UCSF, and after experience P/NP i would never go into another system. Our exams are not curved, the averages on the exam are usually around 86-88% for class of 2009 and everyone helps each other.

 

[totalballistic]

UCLA also P/NP

 

[Istr8nthem]

If you are at a pass/fail school, it can be much tougher to specialize unless you rock the boards. This is because it's hard for P/F schools to rank their students. If you are from a P/F school and score very high on the boards, it's not hard to get in to a specialty because most of those schools are fairly well-respected.

 

[CEJ 954]

Do you think there is an an advantage on pass/fail vs. grading system?

I have often wondered this myself. In the current grading system that I am in the emphasis on the grade undermines other qualities of a great education.

For example:


Studying old exams is more important than asking a professor questions.

Getting a good grade is more important than being present in lecture or lab.

Signing off a lab project is more important than learning the process or performing the task well.

Any advice including practical application is easily discarded because it is "not on the exam."

The diagnostic images shown during lecture become useless because they do not help one score better on an exam.

Getting a good grade isn't always directly correlated to competency in a subject.


For those on a pass/fail system, do you find that there is a greater emphasis on learning for the right reason or do the above examples still apply?😕

 

[Holy Thursday]

I have often wondered this myself. In the current grading system that I am in the emphasis on the grade undermines other qualities of a great education.

For example:


Studying old exams is more important than asking a professor questions.

Getting a good grade is more important than being present in lecture or lab.

Signing off a lab project is more important than learning the process or performing the task well.

Any advice including practical application is easily discarded because it is "not on the exam."

The diagnostic images shown during lecture become useless because they do not help one score better on an exam.

Getting a good grade isn't always directly correlated to competency in a subject.


For those on a pass/fail system, do you find that there is a greater emphasis on learning for the right reason or do the above examples still apply?😕

There isn't a greater emphasis on learning. Ppl will still do what they have to do to get that number grade which suggests passing!

 

[ItsGavinC]

I got back from a post-grad interview (pedo) at a fairly prestigious program last week. Here is what one of the program directors told me during our lunch regarding a P/F system and those wishing to specialize:

He dislikes it because there isn't a class rank. He has difficulty deciphering what applicants to invite to interviews without a class rank to use as a baseline. He noted that he could use board scores, but he believes anybody can have an off day during the exam and botch the boards. Likewise, although to a lesser degree, a mediocre student may have the stars align and do well on Part I.

He also noted that many schools have shifted their P/F system to a HP/P/F, which makes it just as competitive as an A/B/C system, especially for those wishing to specialize. They understand that they must get a HP to distinguish them from the rest of their P classmates, especially without a class rank.

Of course opinions vary on this, but that is straight from his mouth, and I agree with most of it.

 

[cuneatus2]

I got back from a post-grad interview (pedo) at a fairly prestigious program last week. Here is what one of the program directors told me during our lunch regarding a P/F system and those wishing to specialize:

He dislikes it because there isn't a class rank. He has difficulty deciphering what applicants to invite to interviews without a class rank to use as a baseline. He noted that he could use board scores, but he believes anybody can have an off day during the exam and botch the boards. Likewise, although to a lesser degree, a mediocre student may have the stars align and do well on Part I.

He also noted that many schools have shifted their P/F system to a HP/P/F, which makes it just as competitive as an A/B/C system, especially for those wishing to specialize. They understand that they must get a HP to distinguish them from the rest of their P classmates, especially without a class rank.

Of course opinions vary on this, but that is straight from his mouth, and I agree with most of it.

I

 

[I'mFillingFine]

In all reality, how likely do you REALLY think it is that someone will rock Part I just because "the stars align?" I went to a pass/fail school and it wasn't surprising to see the board scores everyone got. Most all of my classmates scored similar to what you would have expected.

I see what you're saying, but I think the point is similar to why some predents are wondering why they only have a few interviews with excellent DAT scores. Four years of cumulative coursework over a variety of courses and labs shows a lot more (and gives a more well-rounded picture) than what you can do in a day. True, the boards test on everything you've been doing, but it's still one shot, and is limited in what it can ask.

I can understand why programs would want to see a more specific idea of how the student moved along in his/her education.

 

[DDS_1_2007]

I got back from a post-grad interview (pedo) at a fairly prestigious program last week. Here is what one of the program directors told me during our lunch regarding a P/F system and those wishing to specialize:

He dislikes it because there isn't a class rank. He has difficulty deciphering what applicants to invite to interviews without a class rank to use as a baseline. He noted that he could use board scores, but he believes anybody can have an off day during the exam and botch the boards. Likewise, although to a lesser degree, a mediocre student may have the stars align and do well on Part I.

He also noted that many schools have shifted their P/F system to a HP/P/F, which makes it just as competitive as an A/B/C system, especially for those wishing to specialize. They understand that they must get a HP to distinguish them from the rest of their P classmates, especially without a class rank.

Of course opinions vary on this, but that is straight from his mouth, and I agree with most of it.

I have been told the same thing on interviews. The directors feel that if it isn't an "Honors", a "P" is only worth a "C" because they can't compare.

 

[cuneatus2]

I have been told the same thing on interviews. The directors feel that if it isn't an "Honors", a "P" is only worth a "C" because they can't compare.

In

 

[gryffindor]

Our ortho match rate (20 of 22) that year is a nice testament to a pass/fail system actually HELPING you to get into a specialty program because many people are not hampered by a lower ranking. Who's to say they wouldn't have been ranked much higher if you were at a different dental school with different students you're competing against?

Because every school has gunners. It's not like all the uber-competitive students only attend UCLA & Harvard and the rest of the dental schools are full of unmotivated students. The top students out of every dental school probably studied and stressed a lot to get there.

 

[cuneatus2]

It's not like all the uber-competitive students only attend UCLA & Harvard and the rest of the dental schools are full of unmotivated students.

T