Doctor/businessman?

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ramseszerg

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Is it even remotely possible to be a doctor, a specialist with relatively low work hour weeks, and manage (a) business(es) on the side? Like a restaurant, and a tennis equipment shop? It would be awesome to be able to realize this. It is a long term life goal, and I just want to know if it is remotely potentially possible, not if it's easy. I am the kind of person who is interested in and fascinated by various new things. Hence why I prefer medicine to research in a restricted field. And I ask this question here because rads has relatively good lifestyle. Do you know ANYONE who has done this before, or would I be tredding on untrodden grass? I am being extrememely ambitious right now, but at the same time I don't want to be detached from reality.

Again, I just want to know if this is a future possibility. If not, I would be happy just cooking and playing tennis and doing whatever else I find fascinating at the time for fun. This way though, if I can get my businesses working for me, I can gain complete financial independence.

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Being an outstanding radiologist/restaurant owner/tennis equipment shop owner is a fulltime job. To attempt all 3 would probably result in mediocrity in all 3.
 
Is it even remotely possible to be a doctor, a specialist with relatively low work hour weeks, and manage (a) business(es) on the side? Like a restaurant, and a tennis equipment shop? It would be awesome to be able to realize this. It is a long term life goal, and I just want to know if it is remotely potentially possible, not if it's easy. I am the kind of person who is interested in and fascinated by various new things. Hence why I prefer medicine to research in a restricted field. And I ask this question here because rads has relatively good lifestyle. Do you know ANYONE who has done this before, or would I be tredding on untrodden grass? I am being extrememely ambitious right now, but at the same time I don't want to be detached from reality.

Again, I just want to know if this is a future possibility. If not, I would be happy just cooking and playing tennis and doing whatever else I find fascinating at the time for fun. This way though, if I can get my businesses working for me, I can gain complete financial independence.


I know some physicians who've gotten into business, but they all had to leave medicine to dedicate their time to it. All were attendings as well. As a med student/resident (about a decade for a specialty), you won't have time. Radiology may be a lifestyle specialty with good hours, but remember, that is from the point of view of DOCTORS. The average attending radiologist still works around ~60 hours a week (http://mdsalaries.blogspot.com/2008/01/us-physician-work-hours-per-week-by.html). Even the derm guys put in 45, not including their various non-clinical duties (charting, billing etc).

I hate to be "that guy", but seriously, don't go into medicine if you would rather do something else. If you don't know what you want out of life after a long time searching, radiology and certain medical sub-fields are hard options to top, but it is incredibly hard to get to the point where you're actually doing it. So far, med school has been the most emotionally, physically, and intellectually draining thing I've done by a wide margin. And after that, you've got to do really damn well when compared to a lot of very smart people in order to have a decent shot at something like radiology. A decade of this hell when you'd be much happier as a tennis pro is sure not worth it.
 
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There are many physicians out there who work four day weeks, or three, or even two (though much less common). In some cases it's common to only work four days because of the call schedule (i.e., it isn't anything like a "four day" week). But in others, usually private practice settings, the physician is able to set their work-week and hours. Just realize that in those cases, compensation is directly proportional to the amount of time worked (and thus number of patients seen).

Radiologists might have one of the better lifestyles (though 60 hours/week is hardly a cakewalk) for a full workweek, but realize that how many days you work can be quite variable depending on how much you really want to make. Don't expect that fat salary for a three day week.

In some specialties, you see more shift work... which might be distributed in what appears to be a random fashion or might be structured more like a week on - week off schedule, though neither would really be accommodating for a business owner.

I do know many physicians who are also businessmen "on the side" but not in anything that they have to be directly involved with during normal work hours. The typical arrangement is that they have bankrolled something and an employee is the manager. If you really want to "run" a restaurant (i.e., you think it would be fun, vs. you think it would make lots of money) then be prepared to spend all of your available time there. Something like a tennis shop could be financed/purchased, with employee management, and you making executive decisions on big directions in inventory, advertising, etc. But keep in mind that most small businesses require the owner to work there directly since revenue can't support the expense of a full time manager.
 
I know someone who is psychiatrist and owns a restaurant in upstate NY. Probably easier in psych because you can schedule patients around your day, much harder in radiology. I think it also depend on what role you want to play in a business. If you are strictly investing, and not running day to day operations, than its doable. If you are the type that likes to micromanage its more difficult. You have to be willing to delegate responsibilities to others, then you could do it.
 
Hmm I have seen the OP's name on the TW forums.:)

IMO you should not go into medical school unless you are fully committed to medicine. People who are not fully committed often hate school and clinical rotations and are high risk to drop out. The most common type of person is someone who was pushed into by the parents. Make no mistake- medical school and and residency are hard work. If you go into rads you are looking 10 years (med school, intern/residency and fellowship) of the prime of your life gone so you better be sure.

Choosing a specialty, any specialty solely on it perceived lifestyle alone is a recipe for failure. Rads stopped being a lifestyle specialty oh about 15 years ago at least. Currently rads residency is not a cakewalk. The call is brutal. You are up all night with no down time at most, if not all, level I trauma centers. When you get out, the average work week is 60 hours in private practice. Exactly how are you going to run a restaurant ? Yes you could work part time I suppose, but part time positions are very unstable and you are very expendable. Now do Docs get involved in business ventures? Of course they do. But not the way you are thinking unless they completely quit medicine.
 
Hmm I have seen the OP's name on the TW forums.:)

IMO you should not go into medical school unless you are fully committed to medicine. People who are not fully committed often hate school and clinical rotations and are high risk to drop out. The most common type of person is someone who was pushed into by the parents. Make no mistake- medical school and and residency are hard work. If you go into rads you are looking 10 years (med school, intern/residency and fellowship) of the prime of your life gone so you better be sure.

Choosing a specialty, any specialty solely on it perceived lifestyle alone is a recipe for failure. Rads stopped being a lifestyle specialty oh about 15 years ago at least. Currently rads residency is not a cakewalk. The call is brutal. You are up all night with no down time at most, if not all, level I trauma centers. When you get out, the average work week is 60 hours in private practice. Exactly how are you going to run a restaurant ? Yes you could work part time I suppose, but part time positions are very unstable and you are very expendable. Now do Docs get involved in business ventures? Of course they do. But not the way you are thinking unless they completely quit medicine.

Just out of curiosity, I was told by a few radiologists that there are different types of groups out there... there are some that want to maximize lifestyle (and allow for 40 hrs/week, 10-12 wks vacation), groups that require 60-80 hrs/ week with 4-5 wks vacation, and there are groups in between these extremes. Is this not true???
 
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Is it even remotely possible to be a doctor, a specialist with relatively low work hour weeks, and manage (a) business(es) on the side? Like a restaurant, and a tennis equipment shop? It would be awesome to be able to realize this. It is a long term life goal, and I just want to know if it is remotely potentially possible, not if it's easy. I am the kind of person who is interested in and fascinated by various new things. Hence why I prefer medicine to research in a restricted field. And I ask this question here because rads has relatively good lifestyle. Do you know ANYONE who has done this before, or would I be tredding on untrodden grass? I am being extrememely ambitious right now, but at the same time I don't want to be detached from reality.

Again, I just want to know if this is a future possibility. If not, I would be happy just cooking and playing tennis and doing whatever else I find fascinating at the time for fun. This way though, if I can get my businesses working for me, I can gain complete financial independence.
Yes! Just replace your wording with "Is it even remotely possible to be a doctor, a specialist with relatively low work hour weeks, and be a single mom?"

I have lurked SDN for a year, especially the nontrad forums, and there is a TON of flexibility in the field if you require flexibility. Like all things, there are tradeoffs but I'm not going to lecture you on that. The post about being mediocre at all 3 is very realistic, but if you would be miserable just being a plain doctor, then pursue your dreams and I wish you the best of luck in your ambitious attitude towards life!
 
Just out of curiosity, I was told by a few radiologists that there are different types of groups out there... there are some that want to maximize lifestyle (and allow for 40 hrs/week, 10-12 wks vacation), groups that require 60-80 hrs/ week with 4-5 wks vacation, and there are groups in between these extremes. Is this not true???

There certainly are groups which emphasize lifestyle at the expense of income and there are groups that don't. If you are in the typical group covering a mixture of hospital and outpatient. I would say a 40 hour/week with 10-12 week of vacation would be very unusual. It is just hard to cover a hospital 24/7 and imaging centers (which are often open on the weekend) and work 40 hours. I am not saying that doesn't exist since I don't know every market in the country, but it would probably be not at all common in most metro areas and desirable places to live. Academics can give you a nice lifestyle but obviously you should enjoy teaching and research at a lower pay scale. You won't get 10-12 weeks but more like 4-6 weeks.

Most groups that maximize lifestyle are the work hard play hard variety- meaning work like a dog while you are there, but you get more time off. Again it is possible to work part time or be an independent contractor however there are drawbacks to this type of work.

I will say that given the current state of rads, groups are hiring less and working more. I personally see this trend continuing for the near future. There have been some significant cuts in reimbursement in recent years and more have already been proposed by Medicare. The latest set of proposals by Medicare Payment Advisory Commission has cuts in MRI, CT, and PET from the Medicare Physician Fee Schedule by as much as 44%. If this actually goes through rads is seriously hosed. There was already a huge cut called the DRA in 2007.
 
I will say that given the current state of rads, groups are hiring less and working more. I personally see this trend continuing for the near future. There have been some significant cuts in reimbursement in recent years and more have already been proposed by Medicare. The latest set of proposals by Medicare Payment Advisory Commission has cuts in MRI, CT, and PET from the Medicare Physician Fee Schedule by as much as 44%. If this actually goes through rads is seriously hosed. There was already a huge cut called the DRA in 2007.
Bye, bye gold diggers :laugh:
 
osli and goober:

I know I have to be passionate about/committed to medicine in order for me to make the decision to go into it. I know this too well and I'm going to shadow some docs this summer and hope that will help. It would be really nice to know that in private practice, three-four day work weeks are possible.
 
osli and goober:

I know I have to be passionate about/committed to medicine in order for me to make the decision to go into it. I know this too well and I'm going to shadow some docs this summer and hope that will help. It would be really nice to know that in private practice, three-four day work weeks are possible.

You can do what ever you want. But if your passion- if your calling is business, why not go into business for yourself full-time, rather than a 3 day a week radiologist and halfa-- business person? Medicine does well financially and is becoming business-like (but not in a positive way) and its getting tougher and tougher to be your own boss (what draws people into running a business). The path to medicine is a long road. If business is your passion, by all means do that instead!
 
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"medicine does well finaicially and become more business like".????

So, that fits OP perfectly. Work three days and become "half-a" business man AND making more than 200G. What's wrong with that?

Yeah, it's so easy to own "other" businesses now. How about become a GM Saturn dealer?

Let's say they cut down 50% next year. You would still make more than 99.9% of "small busines" out there.

Did ApacheIndian said he made 9k over a weekend to buy his Mercedez. Even that cuts in half, it's still a lot of dough.

I agree if you talk about autonomy, the other small business wins hands down. However, if you put in the stability and income potential. It's not even close.
 
I feel like I'm in no position to say this, being that I'm not even in Radiology yet, but...

Why run a business outside of a medicine when you're in a field as lucrative as Radiology? You want to start shops and restaurants? Good luck making them profitable and contributing to your retirement! The real money seems to be in opening or investing in imaging centers. Just put your spare time into making partner and reinvesting that money into medicine. I hear stories of people doing that and bringing in 7 figures a year.

Even if you don't want to invest in medicine, why not work hard in Radiology and just bring in the big private practice partner bucks? At 3-4 days/week you're not going to do that. You see those 400k/year averages for Radiology? If you don't invest a hard week of work into it, cut that number in half. Like the poster above me said, you need extra bucks? Moonlight. And you're talking about running a restaurant?! Hah! That's a full-time, high risk, high stress position. You have to be very hands on or pay someone in the business a lot of money to do that for you. There's far lower-risk and much easier ways to invest your money. A tennis equipment shop? Do those really make any money? Is tennis such a huge part of your current and future (can't be with medicine) that you're going to have some niche or heavy connections in that area?

Read this book, maybe it'll knock some sense into you.

anthonybourdain.jpg


Keep in mind that you're going to spend 4 years of med school, 5 years of intership/residency, and 1-2 years of fellowship before you can even get to that point. Oh, and you'll be in big time med school debt you'll have to pay back. If you want to be in medicine, commit to it 100%. Think about running a restaurant, if you're really that insane, when you retire.
 
Also, look at how competitive Dentistry and Pharmacy schools have become. Radiology has become very competitive to get into partially because lifestyle and income. I don't see what's wrong with that.

When my uncle applied to dental school, it was easy because it wasn't considered lucrative. I remember when pharmacy was a bachelor degree, it was hard to get in but it wasn't this hard to get in when they start to make 6 digits at Walgreens. Physical therapist used to be "insanely" hard to get in because they made really good money(still do). However, after the reimbursement cuts. It's not THAT tough to get in.(it's still very competitive).

I enjoy reading ApacheIndian's posts even though I don't agree 100%. I see people get "knocked down" because they talked about wanting to make money in medicine. The fact is if you look at the match rate, people go into it by money/lifestyle/interest. Are there Mother Teresas out there? Yes, but they are in the minorities. Are there people go into family practice to have a chance to go to rural communities. I am sure there are but they are in the minorities.
 
Also, look at how competitive Dentistry and Pharmacy schools have become. Radiology has become very competitive to get into partially because lifestyle and income. I don't see what's wrong with that.

When my uncle applied to dental school, it was easy because it wasn't considered lucrative. I remember when pharmacy was a bachelor degree, it was hard to get in but it wasn't this hard to get in when they start to make 6 digits at Walgreens. Physical therapist used to be "insanely" hard to get in because they made really good money(still do). However, after the reimbursement cuts. It's not THAT tough to get in.(it's still very competitive).

I enjoy reading ApacheIndian's posts even though I don't agree 100%. I see people get "knocked down" because they talked about wanting to make money in medicine. The fact is if you look at the match rate, people go into it by money/lifestyle/interest. Are there Mother Teresas out there? Yes, but they are in the minorities. Are there people go into family practice to have a chance to go to rural communities. I am sure there are but they are in the minorities.

I want to make money in medicine. Lots of it. Thus I have to be the best of the best. I think patients will like being treated by the best of best. I think they could not care less about motivation.
 
Yeah, I also have a really hard time imagining being happier owning a struggling tennis store than enjoying the awesomeness that is life as a radiologist. But different strokes for different folks I suppose. For some reason I honestly can't comprehend, a lot of people say they would be miserable as a radiologist. To me, being an academic radiologist is possibly the best job conceivable (intellectually interesting, get to help people, lots of time for research, minimal bureaucracy and miscellaneous bull****, sweet hours, good pay, lots of security), and to give all that up to run a store that sells tennis rackets or practice internal medicine seems crazy. But if sitting in a quiet dark room looking at picture after picture would drive you mad, well, I guess I can see how you'd pass it up to advise people on their swing. ;)

Two really obvious points, though:

1) It clearly makes no financial sense to be an average small business owner rather than an average radiologist, I think we can all agree on that. Yes, some small business owners are very successful but that is the vast minority. The expectation value on salary in rads is much higher than any small business.

2) That assumes you can get into radiology. Remember the whole years upon years of hard work in undergrad in difficult science courses thing we did to get into medical school? Then busting our balls to be at the top of med school classes filled with already incredibly intelligent people thing? Not to act too self-important (lord knows most of the orderlies in the hospital are still way above me in the hierarchy), but Radiology is a competitive niche in an already competitive field. There are no guarantees, and if you don't make it into rads or another competitive field you have your heart set on, you might get stuck doing something you hate for pay comparable to what you could make after building up a tennis pro shop or restaurant for 10 years.

Bottom line, you know who you are. If you have your heart set on that restaurant or tennis shop, I really doubt you'll be able to do both that and be a practicing physician. If you are more worried about your financial future, then radiology or another competitive medical specialty is the way to go. But assess whether you think you'll be able to make it all the way there. (Though to be fair, there are still less competitive fields that have good pay and good hours such as anesthesiology). If you don't think the odds are good you'll make it there, it might be an easy decision even financially.
 
Also, look at how competitive Dentistry and Pharmacy schools have become. Radiology has become very competitive to get into partially because lifestyle and income. I don't see what's wrong with that.

There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with feeling a sense of accomplishment when you EARN money. And trust me in radiology you EARN it. It is annoying when people brag about how much money they make to try to impress people. :rolleyes:
Its not wise in an era of declining reimbursements to bring attention to oneself let alone ones entire specialty.

Furthermore its not wise to brag about YOUR specialty and how much money you make while dissing other specialties and how little they make. There are other specialties represented on the CMS board that will take issue. What some of you people don't understand is that people from different specialties sit on the board at CMS. Other specialists on the CMS have been good to us in getting codes approved for reimbursement for procedures/studies, and also getting us reimbursed at a favorable rate. Radiologists have to lobby and convince nonradiologists for that. When radiologists go around grandstanding about how their salary is superior to specialty X who works twice as hard for a third of the pay, 1 its tacky and 2 its plain stupid.
 
Forget the businesses. The point was not that I have to run businesses on the side to be happy. The point is that I'm the type of person who is fascinated by various new things at different times. I'm the kinda guy who does work so that he can go off and do the other things he loves. Therefore, I can't be working 80 hours a week because that won't leave me time for much else. So, how realistic is a 3-4 day work week in any field in medicine? If this is a possibility I am willing to make the sacrifice for residency and all that hard work. Also, this does not mean that I don't have other reasons for going into medicine. I do like helping people, and I do like the science. This doesn't mean I won't be committed to and passionate about medicine. Because again, I know too well that you can't be good at something without being passionate about it. And the last thing I want is to be a hack. This also does not mean that I have to have a 3-4 day work week. I'm also willing to work something else that's reasonable, such as shift work as an ER doc. Hope that got across well.
 
Hey hans. I re-read my posts and they came off as very rude. I apologize for that. I have been reading your posts for a long time and you have always been very helpful.

Unfortunately, for many of the health professionals, we found out that "patient care" is not what we imagined to be. Money is always a factor. I understand no specialty want applicants that are in it for the "money" or "lifestyle". However, it's funny that both have been a big crtieria for many of the applicants. If you "loose" the money due to "budget cuts", you still have the "lifestyle".

In a hypothetical scenerio in which all health care professionals make the same amount per hour. I doubt that we will see the competitiveess in dentistry or plastic surgery or dermatology.
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Forget the businesses. The point was not that I have to run businesses on the side to be happy. The point is that I'm the type of person who is fascinated by various new things at different times. I'm the kinda guy who does work so that he can go off and do the other things he loves. Therefore, I can't be working 80 hours a week because that won't leave me time for much else. So, how realistic is a 3-4 day work week in any field in medicine? If this is a possibility I am willing to make the sacrifice for residency and all that hard work. Also, this does not mean that I don't have other reasons for going into medicine. I do like helping people, and I do like the science. This doesn't mean I won't be committed to and passionate about medicine. Because again, I know too well that you can't be good at something without being passionate about it. And the last thing I want is to be a hack. This also does not mean that I have to have a 3-4 day work week. I'm also willing to work something else that's reasonable, such as shift work as an ER doc. Hope that got across well.

Definitely possible, though not terribly common to say the least. There are nighhawk radiologist and IM hospitalists that work 7 days on 7 days off. As you mentioned, ER docs do shifts and you should be able to find a place that lets you get away with fewer shifts. If you are a solo practice derm or other primarily clinic based doc, you should be able to set up your schedule to work four days a week if you are willing to take the pay cut.

In academics, you will usually get an academic day a week and sometimes more, especially if you bring in grants. You are generally expected to still do something related to your work that day though (research, teaching, etc).
 
Four day work weeks seem to be more common (not universal by any means) in family practice and peds, and I've seen it also in surgery and ortho, and internal medicine. I've heard of cardiologists and other IM subspecialists doing four day weeks, but haven't met one locally. What all of those have in common is that they are clinic based, and can thus set their own schedule and work-week (assuming they are an owner, partner, or whatever and not a direct hospital or practice employee that dictates their schedule). Add dentists to that group as well... seems fairly common there.

Hospitalists and ER do shift work, which depending on the job and load you negotiate, might average three to four days a week.

Radiologists generally don't work partial weeks, but there's nothing saying you can't if you negotiate those terms into a contract. In fact, since there isn't patient continuity to worry about, you'd think it would be easier... a lot like shift work.
 
Four day work weeks seem to be more common (not universal by any means) in family practice and peds, and I've seen it also in surgery and ortho, and internal medicine. I've heard of cardiologists and other IM subspecialists doing four day weeks, but haven't met one locally. What all of those have in common is that they are clinic based, and can thus set their own schedule and work-week (assuming they are an owner, partner, or whatever and not a direct hospital or practice employee that dictates their schedule). Add dentists to that group as well... seems fairly common there.

Hospitalists and ER do shift work, which depending on the job and load you negotiate, might average three to four days a week.

Radiologists generally don't work partial weeks, but there's nothing saying you can't if you negotiate those terms into a contract. In fact, since there isn't patient continuity to worry about, you'd think it would be easier... a lot like shift work.

i know of at least 4 radiologist that work 3 and 4 day work weeks... They all are doing it for family reasons.
 
I guess that falls under the exception category then, not the "generally" part. I would think there aren't any real obstacles to that other than most people (again, "most") in Radiology would rather make the money of a full schedule. It just seemed more common or routine in primary care clinic settings. Always seemed a bit weird to me though since you'd think those would be the people busting tail to try to make more money. Maybe they just don't have the patient base to support extended hours...?
 
To the OP:

Just do nighthawk teleradiology -- some places let you have 26 weeks on / 26 weeks off. You have to work nights, and it's pretty isolated working from home, but your days are free. On your off weeks you can try your hand in the restaurant biz, tennis shops, farming... or you can spend that time traveling, playing with your kids, etc.

It's your life! Do something you love, don't listen to any of the haters. Good luck!
 
To the OP:

Just do nighthawk teleradiology -- some places let you have 26 weeks on / 26 weeks off. You have to work nights, and it's pretty isolated working from home, but your days are free. On your off weeks you can try your hand in the restaurant biz, tennis shops, farming... or you can spend that time traveling, playing with your kids, etc.

It's your life! Do something you love, don't listen to any of the haters. Good luck!

any idea on what the salary for this type of job is?
 
I have no idea, but you can glean over this, for example:

From www.virtualrad.com:

"Virtual Radiologic is a leading provider of teleradiology services and solutions. We are operated by a unique blend of world class radiologists and proven business professionals in a unified team environment. If you are as passionate about radiology as we are, we would welcome the opportunity to discuss how we can partner together to further our commitment to extending radiology and improving life. Please submit your CV for consideration.


Our Radiologists enjoy:

* Unbeatable quality of life working from their professional home offices
* Up to 26 weeks off or more per year to spend valuable time with family, friends, traveling or enjoying a variety of leisure activities
* Competitive compensation with a guaranteed base and ability to earn productivity-based bonuses
* Opportunity to obtain equity ownership in the company
* State of the art technology with no set-up costs
* Easy and fast consultations with other VRC radiologists
* Ability to work from VRC’s destination reading rooms in Hawaii and Minnesota
* Dedicated radiologist support from our Physicians Relations Department
* Seamless and uninterrupted workflow
* Administrative and technical support from our state of the art Operations Center
* The ease of working with our complete licensing and credentialing team
* Full medical liability insurance provided through a major A-Rated US based medical liability provider"
 
One thing that didn't seem emphasized in this thread is that many doctors are businessmen by necessity; i.e., they own a practice in full or in part. This ranges from family med to radiology. In many cases this managerial role is seen as a nuisance, and in fact it isn't uncommon for an MBA type to be hired to run the business side so the doc or docs can focus on medicine. Or, you may find practices that are outright owned by MBA's or other investors, and they just hire physicians to staff the place. But physician owned is still very common, and many do enjoy the business side as well as the medicine side.

And how "business" oriented a practice is really depends on your focus and the specialty. Consider orthopod owned imaging centers that exist entirely for financial gain to the orthopods as opposed to being necessary for them to practice medicine. Or consider an anesthesiologist owned pain treatment center that operates as a highly efficient cash cow. Likewise for a dermatologist that generates as much revenue from facial product sales as from wart removal. Or the plastic surgeon that owns a "full service women's day spa" and offers everything from manicures to botox. The list goes on and on and on.

If you have your heart set on tennis or food, think about a specialty where you can really take the time off, or better yet maybe just focus on running those businesses as a career. But if you just have your heart set on running a business of some sort, shift your focus to medical businesses and those that are at least tangentially connected. There are lots of opportunities out there to be found and made.
 
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