Doctor of humans to doctor of animals...Good move?

[Bobby Mercer]

Hey vets,

Wanted to ask your opinion on changing careers to be a veterinarian. I am finishing podiatry school right now, but not as passionate about as I am about, say animals which is probably what I should have done in the first place.

Do you think becoming a vet is worth a career change, keeping in mind I will be about 250k dollars in debt before even starting school.

What are things that you hate about being a veterinarian (The rewards are obvious)?

I hear that vets make a fortune since most people don't have pet insurance and everything is paid in cash. Is that true? Whats the avg salary for vets, is it enough to pay off like 500k bucks in loans when I'm done?

Would doing a program in the Caribbean be sufficient since it is probably cheaper? Are there licensing problems when I come home like there is in medicine?

Thank you all very much for your help.

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[primatevetjess]

I'm just going to jump in and let you know that vets DO NOT make a fortune. Yes, clients pay up front for services, but the cost isn't anywhere NEAR the cost for the same procedure in human medicine. My knee surgery was $25K, the same surgery in a dog may be ~$2500.

Sadly, I'm not sure it's realistic to expect to pay $500K in loans off of a veterinary salary. Many of us will be $150-200K in debt and are very concerned about being able to pay those loans back.

A quick Google search will give you a lot of information to consider.

 

[Bill59]

What are things that you hate about being a veterinarian

People who think veterinarians make a fortune.

Would doing a program in the Caribbean be sufficient since it is probably cheaper?

They aren't cheaper. And yes, there are licensing issues for non-AVMA accredited schools like the off shore schools.

I would start with some searches, which should answer some of the basics -- what vets do, how much they make, what you need to get into vet school. Then if you're still interested, the next step is probably to work with a veterinarian for a while to find out if it's really for you. You aren't likely to get into veterinary school without this experience anyway.

 

[SilverSpyderGT]

Hey vets,

I am finishing podiatry school right now, but not as passionate about as I am about, say animals which is probably what I should have done in the first place.

You definitely need to like animals to be a vet, but if you want to go into vet med ONLY because you like animals (and especially if "you like animals, but not people"), you are setting yourself up to fail. If you haven't worked with a veterinarian, I would also recommend doing so to test the waters.

 

[1CellNtheSea]

I hear that vets make a fortune since most people don't have pet insurance and everything is paid in cash.

Hahahahaha!

Sorry, that was great to hear after a hard week. I don't know who you heard that from but it is definitely not true. That's one of the sacrifices of the job, you do what you love but for a ton less money than a human doctor. And everything is most certainly not paid in cash. Many clients think vets charge outrageous prices and need pay-back programs or are sent to collections for failing to follow through on payments (many do pay just fine with no complaints but you always have those that ruin it for everyone). I've even heard a client say "$200?! It's just a dog!"

Some vets in different areas of veterinary medicine do make much better money (government jobs, public health, etc) but for the most part I'm guesstimating (and a very rough estimate at that) an average salary of $50-75,000.

Some research would definitely help you figure some of this out. Good luck! (and I'm sorry if I came off as snippy, not intended at all. I just lol'ed when I read that and I'm wondering who's going around saying these things!)

 

[Tiktaalik]

Hey vets,

Wanted to ask your opinion on changing careers to be a veterinarian. I am finishing podiatry school right now, but not as passionate about as I am about, say animals which is probably what I should have done in the first place.

Do you think becoming a vet is worth a career change, keeping in mind I will be about 250k dollars in debt before even starting school.

What are things that you hate about being a veterinarian (The rewards are obvious)?

I hear that vets make a fortune since most people don't have pet insurance and everything is paid in cash. Is that true? Whats the avg salary for vets, is it enough to pay off like 500k bucks in loans when I'm done?

Would doing a program in the Caribbean be sufficient since it is probably cheaper? Are there licensing problems when I come home like there is in medicine?

Thank you all very much for your help.

Vets don't make much (we laugh at the pre-allos who hand-wring about being able to pay their student loans on "a measly $100k salary" over here), Carribs are just as awful of an idea in vet med as they are in human med. Some jobs in vet med can pay over $100k, but they're not typical, and the average is significantly lower. Generally, the bigger money is in industry and government jobs, so you likely won't be doing small animal practice for big bucks. Specific figures are here: http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos076.htm

You probably aren't going to make enough to pay off $500k in loans - you might need to avail yourself of some kind of loan forgiveness program.

Before you make any big decisions, go and shadow someone for a little while and see if you like what they're doing.

Edit: That link up there is also good for general research about what you can do with a DVM.

 

[sunshinevet]

I hear that vets make a fortune since most people don't have pet insurance and everything is paid in cash. Is that true?

Haha... noooo.... we'd be so much better off if everyone did have insurance! Sure, more paperwork... but then we might actually get paid what our skills are worth

 

[Tiktaalik]

Haha... noooo.... we'd be so much better off if everyone did have insurance! Sure, more paperwork... but then we might actually get paid what our skills are worth

Mos def. OP, if you switch vet from pod, you're gonna have to brace yourself for one of the major dilemmas of vet med - how do I provide the care the patient needs at a price the client can afford? As a general rule, people just don't spend as much on a pet as they would on themselves, even with the recent rise in spending on pets.

 

[Bill59]

Haha... noooo.... we'd be so much better off if everyone did have insurance!

I'm not at all convinced that would be the case ... but probably another discussion for another thread.

 

[Bobby Mercer]

I got this from my dad. He was like, yea our dog just had a seizure and we took her to the vet and we had to pay about 400 bucks for Ativan. And he was saying our vet makes a fortune, possibly more than MDs. Certainly found it hard to believe, but he is a very smart guy with his own business, so I usually listen to his advice...but I guess he just doesn't know much about it. Thanks for all the help guys.

 

[Tiktaalik]

I got this from my dad. He was like, yea our dog just had a seizure and we took her to the vet and we had to pay about 400 bucks for Ativan. And he was saying our vet makes a fortune, possibly more than MDs. Certainly found it hard to believe, but he is a very smart guy with his own business, so I usually listen to his advice...but I guess he just doesn't know much about it. Thanks for all the help guys.

No problemo, glad we could help. That's one of the two common perceptions (the other? "Oh, vet, isn't that a 2-year associate's degree?")

 

[sumstorm]

I got this from my dad. He was like, yea our dog just had a seizure and we took her to the vet and we had to pay about 400 bucks for Ativan. And he was saying our vet makes a fortune, possibly more than MDs. Certainly found it hard to believe, but he is a very smart guy with his own business, so I usually listen to his advice...but I guess he just doesn't know much about it. Thanks for all the help guys.

Ask your dad to see the itemized bill. That will give you a far better perspective.

 

[sunshinevet]

Its also important to remember that many medications for humans are subsidised (here in Aus, very heavily by the government, in America I believe insurance covers much of it?) So it is very rare that you actually see the cost of healthcare.

A vet who is making more than several MD's is probably making that money through investment or other means. Or the MD's are doing something really, really wrong.

 

[Shanomong]

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[Tiktaalik]

I still can't decide whether to be offended by this whole thing or amused... but right now amused is winning

Wouldn't it be great if it were true? $400k+ salaries waiting for us on the other side of vet school... It's like a dream I don't want to wake up from, lol.

 

[sumstorm]

I still can't decide whether to be offended by this whole thing or amused... but right now amused is winning

Well...some vets may make more than some MD's. And the OP has proven the typical owner has absolutly no concept of medical costs. A human script for 1mg tablets x 60 is $146 locally... somehow I doubt the vet charged only for a drug, so that $400 on a seizure dog probably included exam, chem panel/UA, and possibly something else. Then again, I've never seen ativan prescribed for seizures.

I am erring on the side of amusing. disheartening, but amusing.

 

[Bobby Mercer]

Didn't mean to offend anyone, just trying to gain some information and wanted to ask the people that are actually involved in the profession. Sorry if I offended some people, but thanks for the input.

 

[HopefulAg]

I doubt anyone was actually offended. We're just all used to people saying 'VETS MAKE THE BIG BUCKS!' and us looking in our (future) wallets and thinking 'where?'

 

[Shanomong]

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[svendenhowser]

Pretty much all my friends and family believe I'll be rolling in money once I graduate, but the fact of the matter is, is that I'll be earning about half of what I did in my previous career (RN). I'm seriously considering keeping my RN registration after I graduate just so I can make some money to live comfortably. Granted our government heavily subsidises our tertiary education (it's about $40 000 for our entire course), but living in AU is extremely expensive (well at least in the major capital cities Mel/Syd/Bris).

 

[sumstorm]

Granted our government heavily subsidises our tertiary education (it's about $40 000 for our entire course), but living in AU is extremely expensive (well at least in the major capital cities Mel/Syd/Bris).

Wow, I always found Australia, even the city centers, cheaper than major cities of the US or Europe. And to graduate with only $40k.....that would be about 1/4 of my vet school debt alone. I don't remember what my undergrad debt was because I have it paid off.

For the OP, not offended. It just seems like people are offended that their animal, during an emergency or for a diagnostic exam post emergency, would actually cost money. Since you are in the med field, I would assume you have access to the costs to do the same procedures, w/out insurance, in the human field. While the drug costs may (or may not since formularies may have to differ by species) be similar, the cost to do all the basic tests for seizures in a human are far higher. When my late husband had a seizure, our bill was over $5k (post seizure diagnostic). Since he wasn't insurable (pre-existing type I diabetes) that was an out-of-pocket cost. Also, his licence was restricted; he couldn't drive until doctors could say they knew a cause & it was treatable, or for 6mo seizure free. That was a decade ago, but I doubt prices have dropped!

 

[svendenhowser]

Wow, I always found Australia, even the city centers, cheaper than major cities of the US or Europe. And to graduate with only $40k.....that would be about 1/4 of my vet school debt alone. I don't remember what my undergrad debt was because I have it paid off.

I don't know, from what I've seen everything here is more expensive, housing, food, electrical, travel.. Granted we do have an awesome health care system so no one is left without free medical treatment. A simple 30yr old 2 bedroom unit 10km from the city can easily cost $500k (and we haven't seen a price drop from the GFC at all, not like the US, at least not in the capital cities). Thats why people import alot of their stuff from the US because even with horrendous shipping (which can easily be as much as the item) it's still cheaper than buying locally.

Anyway a little OT sorry I know quite a few vets who decided to do human medicine, but not the other way round. I even know a few RN's who were vets who took the job change for an increase in pay, less responsibility and not having to deal with people who don't understand how much veterinary medicine costs because human medical costs are free and medicines are heavily subsidised and thus they don't understand why it should cost at all!

 

[Pigsfoot]

wasn't there a link somewhere to another forum where a person was telling their story and it was NUTS! it was that she wanted to go to vet school, applied, was rejected like 3 times-applied to med school-got in-graduated and applied to vet school and was again rejected-did a residency in primary care-applied again-rejected-started to work in a practice and applied AGAIN to vet school-was finally accepted-was able to finish vet school and is now doing BOTH to pay off her school bills.....

guys, remember this?

 

[Shanomong]

.

 

[dgm]

guys, remember this?

I do vaguely recall that story! No idea how to go about tracking it down again, but you definitely didn't make it up.

 

[frozen_canadian]

I think it was a lady from Ontario that did the MD then DVM...I think she then went on to do a zoo residency but still worked as an MD to pay the bills.
There was also a girl that graduated from the WCVM (Saskatoon) in the mid 2000s that had an MD. She got the gold medal in the DVM program. Although I think she went back to practicing as an MD after graduation...don't quote me on that though.

 

[Minnerbelle]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=3409500

damn... that's devotion... med school --> general surgery residency (MD) --> family practice (MD) --> ER (MD) --> vet school --> zoo vet???

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=337414
apparently a PhD and wildlife vet too!

 

[Pigsfoot]

so I think the moral of the story is, podiatrist, it can be done-but don't do it because you want to get rich from it, do it because you absolutely want to do it. see if you can utilize your human med training to help you with your vet med training, and if you can do both to supplement your salary, more power to you!

 

[frozen_canadian]

Actually Pigsfoot I think the take home message should be don't do it at all. $500,000 in in debt is complete idiocy if you plan on working as a veterinarian...it just is not possible to even begin paying this mountain back. Even half this amount is next to impossible. It would be financial suicide. So stick with the feet Dr Podiatrist, and spend your spare time volunteering at a humane society/farm to get your animal kick.

 

[laurafinn]

Wow, I always found Australia, even the city centers, cheaper than major cities of the US or Europe.

I don't know, from what I've seen everything here is more expensive, housing, food, electrical, travel.

Yep, from what I've seen, Australia is more expensive than NZ which is more expensive than the US. Food and fuel prices are way high -- $4-5 for a loaf of bread? I couldn't believe it. And Australian starting vet salaries are lower than NZ's which are lower than the US's. (Apparently, Australian vet salaries do top out at a higher level than NZ vet salaries do. Still lower than US salaries, I suspect.)

Anyway, on topic, I would say, there are ways you can make a lot of money as a vet, but most vets do not make a lot of money. Clear as mud, I know.

 

[sumstorm]

damn... that's devotion...

Or a devotion to being a professional student. Some folks stay in school because they prefer the act of learning in a regimented system to managing in a career with work politics, decision making, etc. I know several DVM's and MD's that are that way, and would still be in school if they could afford it.

 

[sumstorm]

Yep, from what I've seen, Australia is more expensive than NZ which is more expensive than the US. Food and fuel prices are way high -- $4-5 for a loaf of bread? I couldn't believe it. And Australian starting vet salaries are lower than NZ's which are lower than the US's. (Apparently, Australian vet salaries do top out at a higher level than NZ vet salaries do. Still lower than US salaries, I suspect.)

Anyway, on topic, I would say, there are ways you can make a lot of money as a vet, but most vets do not make a lot of money. Clear as mud, I know.

I haven't been there in over a decade now (starting to get old) but at the time, I actually called my folks in the states and had them mail circulars over because I couldn't get Austalian's to believe the cost was similar (and a loaf of bread was running ~$2 then.) Fuel is heavily subsidized in the US, but healthcare is far more $$$. So those balance out. My friend in Syd says you buy houses at auction to get decent prices. His house, 3bed 30min out was $300k. We sold our NY house 3bed/2 living room/attach garage/basement 1hour out for $430 at the bottom of the market. Friends in Perth, & Melbourne are doing better.

We compare notes because he makes fun of my Uni education; he makes more, travels more, has more leisure (vacation) time and more money to play with than I will with an 8 extra years of schooling. A lot can change in a decade though.

 

[sunshinevet]

I haven't been there in over a decade now (starting to get old) but at the time, I actually called my folks in the states and had them mail circulars over because I couldn't get Austalian's to believe the cost was similar (and a loaf of bread was running ~$2 then.) Fuel is heavily subsidized in the US, but healthcare is far more $$$. So those balance out. My friend in Syd says you buy houses at auction to get decent prices. His house, 3bed 30min out was $300k. We sold our NY house 3bed/2 living room/attach garage/basement 1hour out for $430 at the bottom of the market. Friends in Perth, & Melbourne are doing better.

I'm not sure what you mean about people in perth doing better... perth is actually one of the most expensive cities in Australia to live in, and has the highest mean and median house prices. This is because of two factors: 1) isolation 2) the mining boom. Suddenly there is a whole heap of people over here with money to burn, and prices of EvERYTHING reflect that.

Basically, short of living in the dogiest suburb in perth, you actually wont find ANY house under 500k.

 

[Pigsfoot]

Actually Pigsfoot I think the take home message should be don't do it at all. $500,000 in in debt is complete idiocy if you plan on working as a veterinarian...it just is not possible to even begin paying this mountain back. Even half this amount is next to impossible. It would be financial suicide. So stick with the feet Dr Podiatrist, and spend your spare time volunteering at a humane society/farm to get your animal kick.

I'm just not the kind of person to discourage someone from trying something they think they want to try. According to that other thread, many people found ways of doing it, so its possible without getting into a hole of debt. I do think the OP just needs to shadow vets and visit clinics and see if its really worth it. eeesh.

 

[Shanomong]

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[sumstorm]

I'm not sure what you mean about people in perth doing better... perth is actually one of the most expensive cities in Australia to live in, and has the highest mean and median house prices. This is because of two factors: 1) isolation 2) the mining boom. Suddenly there is a whole heap of people over here with money to burn, and prices of EvERYTHING reflect that.

Basically, short of living in the dogiest suburb in perth, you actually wont find ANY house under 500k.

Ummm....didn't say PEOPLE. said my FRIENDS. IE, specific individuals that I know . part of it is the mining boom and the income they have generated as a result. It is never just about costs; if the cost to get an education is $40,000 but you make that much in a year.....no big deal. If the cost is $300,000 but you make $50,000...might be some issues. So, I guess all the Aussie's I personaly know are the exception and doing well. They are also 1.5-3 decades older than the avg FY vet student.

expat.com puts the COL for sydney at 70% of NYC. one advantage in the states is more options in terms of places to live. IE industry is more spread out with cities competing using tax breaks and such..which I think might be harder in such large states...and would be hard on an infrastructure that relies on taxes for health care. However, I can't emphasize enough, after losing my husband, I would have given anything to also not have lost our entire life savings to a healthcare system.

 

[twelvetigers]

Pretty much all my friends and family believe I'll be rolling in money once I graduate, but the fact of the matter is, is that I'll be earning about half of what I did in my previous career (RN). I'm seriously considering keeping my RN registration after I graduate just so I can make some money to live comfortably. Granted our government heavily subsidises our tertiary education (it's about $40 000 for our entire course), but living in AU is extremely expensive (well at least in the major capital cities Mel/Syd/Bris).

There's a local equine vet here that works in the delivery room as a RN and then does horse appointments on weekends and free days, plus emergency calls. It's a busy life, but she declares that the RN thing pays the bills and the equine thing is just for fun.

 

[frozen_canadian]

There's a local equine vet here that works in the delivery room as a RN and then does horse appointments on weekends and free days, plus emergency calls. It's a busy life, but she declares that the RN thing pays the bills and the equine thing is just for fun.

Lol, i know somebody else doing the same thing. Its sad when a doctorate pays less than an RN makes. My classmate is married to a nurse and they graduated at the same time. She had a starting salary $20,000!! higher than he did...and he went straight into private practice.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

It is very sad that that this is happening. But the veterinary academy has known for at least a decade at least that this was happening (since the KPMG MegaStudy of 1999). Good luck to you guys paying back your loans. If you do not have a trust fund or a spouse with a great paying job, now is the time to start playing the lottery. Hope you enjoy your expensive "hobby" in the future.

 

[cuitlamiztli]

Good luck to you guys paying back your loans. If you do not have a trust fund or a spouse with a great paying job, now is the time to start playing the lottery. Hope you enjoy your expensive "hobby" in the future.

I'm sure most of us have noticed the debt load we're taking on (or planning to take on). Sure, it's a little daunting, but nobody is forcing us to go to vet school. Our loans--and their repayment--are ours to worry about.

I, for one, will thoroughly enjoy my "expensive hobby" because it is exactly what I want to do with my life.

 

[Shanomong]

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[No Imagination]

Doom and Gloom, The Sky is Falling...

Vet med like EVERYTHING else is about the sacrifices you are willing to make to get what you want. If you can't find a high (enough) paying job in one area, perhaps you need to move to a new state, diversify your skill set, or move on to something different.

I am sorry, while we all know we will not be millionaires by the time we are 40, there is plenty of work for a vet who is willing to A) Put in the hours, B) Learn skill sets that make them more marketable, C) Move to an area/state/city that needs him/her.

I cannot and refuse to believe that it particularly hard to find a decent paying job if you are willing to do A, B, C.

Now if you want to be HAVE to be an Equine Surgeon, who wants to work 9-5, and/or you must live in City X, then yeah, perhaps you will be eating Ramen.


EDIT: I just googled him or her as well (before I read your post) and came to the same conclusion. Obviously someone with a thorn and chip. Possible a 'real' vet, but obviously disgruntled

 

[dgm]

So what's your story "Joseph Knecht.....DVM?" Due to your series of strange posts I just googled you, and I'm coming back with hits from all kinds of blogs and forums, all of which have you criticizing the profession, one of which you sign "Dr. Joseph Knecht in Castalia" (http://blog.mdmep.com/2010/02/24/our-veterinary-advisor-says-you-are-wrong-about-women-vets/).... which is interesting, considering that's a literary figure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Glass_Bead_Game

In all of your posts on all of the forums are criticizing the profession and telling people to stop pursuing it.

Interestingly, where I didn't find you (because it's obviously a fake name.... and I doubt you're even in the profession) was on a website for a veterinary practice, and on VIN.

So reveal yourself, and stop coming on to forums where people seek advice and guidance and giving them unwarranted and false "advice."

Just to play devil's advocate, very few of us here post under our real names. I assume the poster JosephKnechtDVM chose that username because there is something in the character from The Glass Bead Game that he/she identifies with. There are definitely vets on VIN who have voiced their opinion that they would never choose to go to vet school now because the tuition:income ratio stinks. I don't think it's fair to expect this veterinarian to reveal his or her identity just because he/she has an opinion that is hard to hear. I also don't see any real reason to think this person is not a vet. Not sure why anyone not in the profession would spend any significant amount of time discussing these things in vet-related forums!

Of course, I could be wrong, and can't speak for JosephKnechtDVM!

 

[Tiktaalik]

I also don't see any real reason to think this person is not a vet. Not sure why anyone not in the profession would spend any significant amount of time discussing these things in vet-related forums!

I agree that there's no reason to assume that he's not a vet. I mean, I don't pretend to be a Devonian tetrapod, either - it's just my screen name.

At the same time, I'd just like to state that his pattern of posts really undermines his credibility on the issue (which, might I add, I pointed out months ago). If all we have to judge the quality of his advice by is his constantly repeated and widely disseminated doomsaying, we really have no way to assess whether his input is worth listening to or not.

 

[Shanomong]

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[sunshinevet]

Haha I knew as soon as I saw your name pop up that it was going to be a devils advocate post.

True. But based on the nature of past posts, stuff that's out of left field and not veterinary related, one of which had something in it that I remember someone telling him he could easily look up on VIN... I dont think he's a vet. And if you're going to portray yourself as one, and give impressionable young pre-vets career altering advice, I think a little proof of actually being in the profession is a reasonable request.

I don't need a name, when I said "reveal yourself" I meant for what you are, not who you are. So how about you tell us what the top "Clinical Update from the Journals" is today on Vin? Since you're a vet, and you're obviously internet savvy.... just log in, it's right on the top of the first page.

Uhhhh I think whether or not he has access to VIN is a pretty poor indicator of whether or not he's a vet. Sure, all vet STUDENTS in my opinion should have a VIN account - its free for students! I know plenty of vets who don't use VIN purely because they have to pay for it, and they don't feel its worth the money... so i think thats a completely arbitrary and ridiculous request.

 

[Shanomong]

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[laurafinn]

So basically what I see here is someone being harassed and forced to defend himself because he has an opinion you don't want to hear. Not cool.

Everyone else on this website could be faking it too, but you are not holding them to the same standard. Why do you feel threatened by this guy's point of view?

 

[Tiktaalik]

So basically what I see here is someone being harassed and forced to defend himself because he has an opinion you don't want to hear. Not cool.

Everyone else on this website could be faking it too, but you are not holding them to the same standard. Why do you feel threatened by this guy's point of view?

It's not so much a matter of feeling threatened as it is fatigue. The guy has 17 unwavering posts on exactly the same topic.

 

[zxz130]

So basically what I see here is someone being harassed and forced to defend himself because he has an opinion you don't want to hear. Not cool.

Everyone else on this website could be faking it too, but you are not holding them to the same standard. Why do you feel threatened by this guy's point of view?

There's no need to try and paint him as a victim. Everyone's just sharing their own opinions, it just so happens his opinion is not one shared by others. I think we all realize it's an online forum and things said here shouldn't be taken too seriously.