Doctors are refusing to treat Lawyers and their families!

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Spitting Camel

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So, I read in today's edition of Newsweek that there are doctors who are refusing to treat Lawyers and their families (including children) in any instances where the treatment is elective (non-emergency). This is being done as a protest against the rise of frivolous lawsuits.

They also mentioned an instance where a nurse whose husband worked for a medical malpractice law firm lost her job at a hospital because of a "conflict of interest and her access to medical records that she may pass on to her husband."

What do you guys think of this? Why don't we have patients sign waviers like doctors in Texas stating that by getting treated by us, you agree to waive your right to legal action in the case of accidental personal injury or death? Leave a clause stating that negligence warrants legal action or whatever. Things have got to change, people!!

I have to say, though, that I do not agree with refusing to treat lawyers and their families. That goes against everything I stand for.

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They should just refuse treatment of lawyers who are taking the frivolous lawsuits to court. Either way it's illegal.
 
Medikit said:
They should just refuse treatment of lawyers who are taking the frivolous lawsuits to court. Either way it's illegal.


Actually, they claim that the Hippocratic Oath is only pertinant in emergency cases. Only then are they obligated to treat people. At most it is unethical, but I don't think it's illegal. It's so disturbing, using your ability to heal as a pawn.
 
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Legal or illegal. It will never happen on a large enough scale to stop the lawsuits. There are just enough BS lawsuit that win to keep people filing more. Doctors are going to have to get some help/protection from the government in the next few years or we will not be able to afford malpractice insurance once we graduate from medical school.

The thing about lawyers is: they are half as smart as doctors but twice as sneaky. -Jerry off of ER
 
Doctors now are having patients sign an agreement that if they have problems with the medical care they receive that they can not go to a trial jury but must go to a mediator. A friend of mine went to a new doctor and had to sign the waiver. I thought that was a really good idea, since jury trials tend to award more then they ever should.
 
maoeris said:
Doctors now are having patients sign an agreement that if they have problems with the medical care they receive that they can not go to a trial jury but must go to a mediator. A friend of mine went to a new doctor and had to sign the waiver. I thought that was a really good idea, since jury trials tend to award more then they ever should.

Ooh, I like that! I think there should definitely be some sort of committee that these lawsuits go through before they go to trial so the validity can be addressed by people who know somethign about medicine - not lay people who think doctors should be superhuman and never ever make a mistake!.
 
maoeris said:
Doctors now are having patients sign an agreement that if they have problems with the medical care they receive that they can not go to a trial jury but must go to a mediator. A friend of mine went to a new doctor and had to sign the waiver. I thought that was a really good idea, since jury trials tend to award more then they ever should.

any lawyer can get out of a rights-waiver. precedant has demonstrated that you can't sign away your rights by agreement in particular situations so liability waivers sometimes don't hold up.
 
Physicians have no duty to treat anyone. This is a misconception. You only have a duty to treat people that you create a physician-patient contract with. In other words, should a person walk into your office (who you have never seen before) or collapse in the street, you could technically walk right over their body and never look back. A physician working in a hospital only has to treat patients because, by being employed as a salaried physician, they agree to abide by the rules of the institution; due to agreements between hospitals and the government, this means you have to treat all comers in the ED.

If private physicians are choosing not to treat lawyers, they are well within their rights.
 
I think mediation is the direction we need to (and will probably end up) going to.

I read that in states where mediation is REQUIRED prior to going to court in custodial divorce cases, the rate of both parties being 'happy' with the outcome was some very high number. Much more joing custody, much less animosity coming out in the process.

The article (or TV show, I forgot) also said lawyers HATE THIS. They have fought tooth and nail against mediation laws. And it states without mediation, they advise their clients not to seek mediation. WHY? It means less money for them.

We need to take Lawyers OUT of the equation as much as possible by setting up an equitable, fair, mediation process.
 
zinjanthropus said:
any lawyer can get out of a rights-waiver. precedant has demonstrated that you can't sign away your rights by agreement in particular situations so liability waivers sometimes don't hold up.

Hit the nail on the Head! 👍

On a similar note, my view is that this trend in lawsuits has more to do with patients being unsatisfied and looking for fault, and not necessarily any major quality changes in healthcare over the past 30years.

After all, would you sue your 'friend' the doctor who made an honest mistake? -Or- Would you sue the 'Pretentious' doctor that didn't even 'listen' to you?
 
SaltySqueegee said:
After all, would you sue your 'friend' the doctor who made an honest mistake? -Or- Would you sue the 'Pretentious' doctor that didn't even 'listen' to you?

If your a lawyer you would sue both....more income.


P.S. hmmmmm looking back at this do lawyers have friends? I kid I kid!
 
This doesn't look good for me. I am an aspiring surgeon who will be married to a lawyer! Yikes
 
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JDAD said:
This doesn't look good for me. I am an aspiring surgeon who will be married to a lawyer! Yikes

No, no, no, that is a good thing. You will have free representation! :laugh:

However, make sure to not piss your spouse off, or you'll be up Poop creek! 😱
 
I actually saw this on CBS News with dan Rather last night.
 
👍
Doctors should unite and try to reform laws even if that means denying the public health care.

To a certain extent that is what is going on these days. Doctors are moving out of areas with exceedingly high malpractice insurance like Florida (I'm screwed 🙁 ) and going to places like Cali or Virginia. So, the people in areas with limited health care professionals have to wait extra long to see a doctor for let's say OB/GYN. So, in a way they are denying the public health care access.

But do I think that any big changes are going to take place: No! This country is run by lawyers.

The big problem comes back in the form of us as juries (our peers)....awarding immense amounts of money for malpractice cases/settlements.
 
kinetic said:
Physicians have no duty to treat anyone. This is a misconception. You only have a duty to treat people that you create a physician-patient contract with. In other words, should a person walk into your office (who you have never seen before) or collapse in the street, you could technically walk right over their body and never look back. A physician working in a hospital only has to treat patients because, by being employed as a salaried physician, they agree to abide by the rules of the institution; due to agreements between hospitals and the government, this means you have to treat all comers in the ED.

If private physicians are choosing not to treat lawyers, they are well within their rights.

I agree! Very good article cited by Samuri Lincoln
 
kinetic said:
Physicians have no duty to treat anyone. This is a misconception. You only have a duty to treat people that you create a physician-patient contract with. In other words, should a person walk into your office (who you have never seen before) or collapse in the street, you could technically walk right over their body and never look back. A physician working in a hospital only has to treat patients because, by being employed as a salaried physician, they agree to abide by the rules of the institution; due to agreements between hospitals and the government, this means you have to treat all comers in the ED.

If private physicians are choosing not to treat lawyers, they are well within their rights.

No legal duty. This is true.

Judd
 
Spitting Camel said:
So, I read in today's edition of Newsweek that there are doctors who are refusing to treat Lawyers and their families (including children) in any instances where the treatment is elective (non-emergency). This is being done as a protest against the rise of frivolous lawsuits.

They also mentioned an instance where a nurse whose husband worked for a medical malpractice law firm lost her job at a hospital because of a "conflict of interest and her access to medical records that she may pass on to her husband."

What do you guys think of this? Why don't we have patients sign waviers like doctors in Texas stating that by getting treated by us, you agree to waive your right to legal action in the case of accidental personal injury or death? Leave a clause stating that negligence warrants legal action or whatever. Things have got to change, people!!

I have to say, though, that I do not agree with refusing to treat lawyers and their families. That goes against everything I stand for.

They tried those mandatory abitration agreements here in utah (IHC did anyway). People freeked out, lawers had a field day with it. Used it as proof that the evil HMO was trying to limit your rights even more. Several lawers volunteered to "protect" the peoples rights and fight it in court.
What people don't realize is that the lawers were just looking out for themselves and the only right that they're protecting is the lawers right to take 30% of all those frivolous awards. How can people be so stupid, the law suits and insurence problems are driving the medical field into the ground and they're only worried about their rights to sue for some outrageous settlement?
This kind of thing drives me nuts.
This last year my wife and I had a personal tragedy, our baby died. He was stillborn actually, caused by something our OB/GYN should have caught. Litigation was never a consideration, money won't bring our child back and the doctor felt terrible already. Our country is full of people who just want a quick buck and who cares about the consequences. I hope the reality check isn't when they no longer have the service they used to enjoy, but that is where it looks like were headed.
 
rgporter said:
They tried those mandatory abitration agreements here in utah (IHC did anyway). People freeked out, lawers had a field day with it. Used it as proof that the evil HMO was trying to limit your rights even more. Several lawers volunteered to "protect" the peoples rights and fight it in court.
What people don't realize is that the lawers were just looking out for themselves and the only right that they're protecting is the lawers right to take 30% of all those frivolous awards. How can people be so stupid, the law suits and insurence problems are driving the medical field into the ground and they're only worried about their rights to sue for some outrageous settlement?
This kind of thing drives me nuts.
This last year my wife and I had a personal tragedy, our baby died. He was stillborn actually, caused by something our OB/GYN should have caught. Litigation was never a consideration, money won't bring our child back and the doctor felt terrible already. Our country is full of people who just want a quick buck and who cares about the consequences. I hope the reality check isn't when they no longer have the service they used to enjoy, but that is where it looks like were headed.

rgporter,
I am truly sorry for your loss. I can't even imagine what it must be like. However, I commend you for your bravery and the way in which you handled that matter. It is true. Money won't bring back a child and I am sure that your Doc did not intend to hurt your unborn baby. Unfortunately, things happen. It sucks when it happens to us. I hope that you and your wife will start a family someday. And I am sure that you will make a great father.
Indebt
 
Personally, if I knew of a lawyer who has participated in frivolous malpractice lawsuits, I wouldn't want to help them (as long as it wasn't an emergency obviously), or, I would charge them some ridiculous amount of money if I could. If lawyers like that are going to put doctors out of business, then they (doctors) wouldn't be there to help them (lawyers) anyway.
 
juddson said:
No legal duty. This is true.

Judd

I concur with your point. Hippocratic oath, anyone? For those that trot out this argument - no legal duty to treat anyone - you are dancing on a dangerously slipperly slope. What if we were to substitute "blacks" or "gays" for lawyers. Would you still hold the same views? The distinction between refusing to provide medical service to someone based on their chosen vocational path and refusing based on traits beyond their control is a razor fine one indeed.

Further, I think blaming plaintiffs' attorneys is somewhat misguided, and focusing on only a small portion of the problem. Certainly there are some bad apples in the group that file frivolous suits. But should this prevent a patient from legitimate recovery when their doctor screws up? Should a honest, industrious med mal attorney be refused spinal surgery to alleviate debilitating pain just b/c he has won a few verdicts against doctors? Again, stereotyping an entire group based on the actions of a few is a dangerous exercise.

No, the real culprit is the greedy insurance companies. Here are some facts and statistics to back that claim up. First off, realize that insurance companies are exempted from federal antitrust laws, and may essentially price fix at will. Doctors have no choice but to pay these ridiculous fees... where else can they go? Eliminating this exemption would be a simple step in the right direction... let's see what the free market rates actually are for such coverage.

And insurance companies love to promote med mal recovery cap legislation (i.e. recovery may not exceed $250k or $500k). Which does make sense on some level... but what if you are the victim of malpractice, and your damages exceed this level? $250k is NOT much money for someone rendered helpless, in pain, and unable to work due to medical negligence. Furthermore, the idea that these caps make malpractice insurance more affordable is a complete sham. From 1991 to 2002, the median malpractice premium increased 48.2 percent in states that capped recovery of noneconomic damages. In states with no caps, the increase was 35.9 percent, according to Weiss Ratings Inc. Huh? Why are insurance companies raising their rates in states with caps? Greed, pure and simple. In Colorado, which caps both economic and noneconomic damages, malpractice payouts decreased from $39 million in 1997 to $36 million in 2001. Over that same time, premiums increased from $87 million to $119 million, according to a press release from Rep. Diana DeGette. This eliminates any notion that overall payouts have risen despite the cap. Insurance companies have simply bumped up their profit margin.

Support for legislation that would cap recovery of noneconomic damages in medical malpractice cases presumes that 1) malpractice litigation causes skyrocketing malpractice premiums, and 2) caps will make insurance more affordable. Those presumptions are absolutely false. The fact that so many people believe malpractice lawsuits are an important factor in rising health-care costs is a tribute to the success of insurance industry propaganda.
 
samurai_lincoln said:
I concur with your point. Hippocratic oath, anyone? For those that trot out this argument - no legal duty to treat anyone - you are dancing on a dangerously slipperly slope. What if we were to substitute "blacks" or "gays" for lawyers. Would you still hold the same views? The distinction between refusing to provide medical service to someone based on their chosen vocational path and refusing based on traits beyond their control is a razor fine one indeed.

Further, I think blaming plaintiffs' attorneys is somewhat misguided, and focusing on only a small portion of the problem. Certainly there are some bad apples in the group that file frivolous suits. But should this prevent a patient from legitimate recovery when their doctor screws up? Should a honest, industrious med mal attorney be refused spinal surgery to alleviate debilitating pain just b/c he has won a few verdicts against doctors? Again, stereotyping an entire group based on the actions of a few is a dangerous exercise.

No, the real culprit is the greedy insurance companies. Here are some facts and statistics to back that claim up. First off, realize that insurance companies are exempted from federal antitrust laws, and may essentially price fix at will. Doctors have no choice but to pay these ridiculous fees... where else can they go? Eliminating this exemption would be a simple step in the right direction... let's see what the free market rates actually are for such coverage.

And insurance companies love to promote med mal recovery cap legislation (i.e. recovery may not exceed $250k or $500k). Which does make sense on some level... but what if you are the victim of malpractice, and your damages exceed this level? $250k is NOT much money for someone rendered helpless, in pain, and unable to work due to medical negligence. Furthermore, the idea that these caps make malpractice insurance more affordable is a complete sham. From 1991 to 2002, the median malpractice premium increased 48.2 percent in states that capped recovery of noneconomic damages. In states with no caps, the increase was 35.9 percent, according to Weiss Ratings Inc. Huh? Why are insurance companies raising their rates in states with caps? Greed, pure and simple. In Colorado, which caps both economic and noneconomic damages, malpractice payouts decreased from $39 million in 1997 to $36 million in 2001. Over that same time, premiums increased from $87 million to $119 million, according to a press release from Rep. Diana DeGette. This eliminates any notion that overall payouts have risen despite the cap. Insurance companies have simply bumped up their profit margin.

Support for legislation that would cap recovery of noneconomic damages in medical malpractice cases presumes that 1) malpractice litigation causes skyrocketing malpractice premiums, and 2) caps will make insurance more affordable. Those presumptions are absolutely false. The fact that so many people believe malpractice lawsuits are an important factor in rising health-care costs is a tribute to the success of insurance industry propaganda.

The caps are only on so-called "pain and suffering" awards. Even here in California (where we've had a $250k cap for years and years) the actual economic damages can be awarded - for example if you'll need full care for the rest of your life and you're expected to live 30 more years, thats how much you'd get. Plus the $250k pain and suffering.
 
flighterdoc said:
The caps are only on so-called "pain and suffering" awards. Even here in California (where we've had a $250k cap for years and years) the actual economic damages can be awarded - for example if you'll need full care for the rest of your life and you're expected to live 30 more years, thats how much you'd get. Plus the $250k pain and suffering.

Not always. Read my post carefully:
"In Colorado, which caps both economic and noneconomic damages, malpractice payouts decreased from $39 million in 1997 to $36 million in 2001."

Colorado has a $1M total cap (econ and non-econ) which is a pretty freakin' low amount over a lifetime. See also Indiana, Louisiana, Virginia, etc. which also have total recovery caps.
http://www.issuespa.net/resources/image/caps-summary_of_state_laws.htm

Here is a link to the full Weiss study, which is well done:
http://www.weissratings.com/MedicalMalpractice.pdf

Also, if you think all non-econ damages are bogus, you either have little sense of compassion or don't completely understand the meaning of the term. Non-economic damages compensate people for injuries that are very real, like permanent disfigurement, loss of sight or a limb, loss of fertility, and wrongful death.
 
samurai_lincoln said:
And insurance companies love to promote med mal recovery cap legislation (i.e. recovery may not exceed $250k or $500k). Which does make sense on some level... but what if you are the victim of malpractice, and your damages exceed this level? $250k is NOT much money for someone rendered helpless, in pain, and unable to work due to medical negligence. Furthermore, the idea that these caps make malpractice insurance.


If I am not mistaken, the tort reform legislation that has been proposed puts a cap on non-economic damages, e.g. pain and suffering. If a patient had 50 million dollars in medical bills for continuing care throughout his/her life as a result of malpractice, they would still (presumably, if the insurance levels were that high) be covered. The cap of $250k protects against the frivolity of the lawsuits that ask for 39 million bucks to help ease the pain of the family that can no longer bear a child because x happened and the Doc should have known better... There would still be a way for the patient to recover expected wages for the rest of their life if he/she was unable to work because of disability or death.

Anyway, this is how I understand the malpractice caps that have been performed. Correct me if I am wrong on this.
 
skiz knot said:
If I am not mistaken, the tort reform legislation that has been proposed puts a cap on non-economic damages, e.g. pain and suffering. If a patient had 50 million dollars in medical bills for continuing care throughout his/her life as a result of malpractice, they would still (presumably, if the insurance levels were that high) be covered. The cap of $250k protects against the frivolity of the lawsuits that ask for 39 million bucks to help ease the pain of the family that can no longer bear a child because x happened and the Doc should have known better... There would still be a way for the patient to recover expected wages for the rest of their life if he/she was unable to work because of disability or death.

Anyway, this is how I understand the malpractice caps that have been performed. Correct me if I am wrong on this.

See above...
 
samurai_lincoln said:
Not always. Read my post carefully:
"In Colorado, which caps both economic and noneconomic damages, malpractice payouts decreased from $39 million in 1997 to $36 million in 2001."

Colorado has a $1M total cap (econ and non-econ) which is a pretty freakin' low amount over a lifetime. See also Indiana, Louisiana, Virginia, etc. which also have total recovery caps.
http://www.issuespa.net/resources/image/caps-summary_of_state_laws.htm

Here is a link to the full Weiss study, which is well done:
http://www.weissratings.com/MedicalMalpractice.pdf

Also, if you think all non-econ damages are bogus, you either have little sense of compassion or don't completely understand the meaning of the term. Non-economic damages compensate people for injuries that are very real, like permanent disfigurement, loss of sight or a limb, loss of fertility, and wrongful death.


I agree that a million in economic damages is low. I also think that a quarter-million in non-economic damages is low. But, not having any limits is clearly a bad thing - juries giving hundreds of millions for BS is the result.
 
Malpractice rates affect some docs more than others. I hear that OB/GYNs are hit the hardest. Just one more incentive to specialize in Botox.
 
How did the idea of malpractice insurance come about anyways? People make mistakes, even doctors. I think too many people expect doctors to be perfect; they don't understand that medicine is a PRACTICE (meaning you can never completely master it). If a firefighter fails to save a pet or a child, we don't blame them, we don't sue them. If he/she were in a burning building and went down corridor A instead corridor B (where a child was trapped), we don't have a jury sit down and decide whether he could've/should've gone down corridor B.

I understand that there are occasionally egregious and obvious violations of medical ethics and those doctors should be punished.
 
the difference between refusing to treat lawyers and blacks, is that there are anti-discrimination laws protecting blacks that simply do not exist for lawyers. of course, it is difficult to prove that a doc refused to treat you because of your race. refusing to treat lawyers is legal but not ethical.

look in the everybody forum. there is a big thread about this.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=127859
 
BananaSplit said:
I understand that there are occasionally egregious and obvious violations of medical ethics and those doctors should be punished.


Unfortunately doctors aren't sued just for the egregious and obvious violations of medical practice and ethics. The fact is that people are suing (and winning) because they didn't get the results that they wanted, regardless of whether or not it was a result of mal-practice. There are too many variables to consider in human medicine to ever guarantee that something will turn out perfect, and that a doctor will never overlook something. I agree that doctors that make major mistakes, that should not have happened under any sort of reasonable circumstances, should be punished monetarily or otherwise. But mistakes happen, things don't turn out as planned, and their is nothing that can change that. The number of medical malpractice claims and awards in the last 10 years has skyrocketted (I don't want to quote specifics, b/c I can't remember the #'s exactly, but I think they have doubled?). There is no way that you can make the claim that the # of instances of egregious violations has risen at the same rate. I would assume that the number has remained constant.
 
shiz,

while you may not be able to claim that medical errors have substantially increased in the last several years you cuold make the claim that patients are more aware and educated about their health. thus, they are more likely to realize if and when a mistake has been made. thus leading to more lawsuits.
 
japhy said:
shiz,

while you may not be able to claim that medical errors have substantially increased in the last several years you cuold make the claim that patients are more aware and educated about their health. thus, they are more likely to realize if and when a mistake has been made. thus leading to more lawsuits.
You could make the claim that they are encouraged by lawyers to file a claim because there is the lure of free money. People know when they have been wronged. When you have your kidney removed when you went in for a tonsilectomy, you can guess someone f'd up.
 
I feel that for elective care the physician would not be violating the hippocratic oath by refusing to treat a plaintiff lawyer. They already can refuse to treat you for elective procedures (and they are not required to give a reason). The point the physicians that started this were trying to make is that lawyers that bring frivolous lawsuits drive up the cost of healthcare so that it becomes less accessible to a segment of our population. They were trying to demonstrate to the lawyers how it felt to have less access to healthcare.

I think that the problem with tort reform is the same problem there is with the entire tort system: a misunderstanding of its purpose. As I understand it, the tort system is designed to provide compensation to a party who was harmed by the negligence or malice of others and to punish the offending party to prevent it from happening again. However, the tort system is often used as a form of "lottery ticket" for those who have suffered a tragedy. It is difficult for the jury to put aside the emotion of the case and accurately assess the amount of fault of the offending party. In addition, pain and suffering and other non-economic damages are nearly impossible to assess especially in a very emotional case (ie the loss of a child). However, with the exception of capping the amount that can be recovered for damages (which becomes a problem since damages are hard to assess), I have not heard any viable options to repair the system. Ironically, I think the best way to solve it would be lawyer peer pressure. Lawyers should be ethically bound to not bring cases that are not merited just as physicians are ethically bound to not provide treatment that harms patients. There will be some bad apples but if other lawyers drummed them out of the system by reporting them to the ethics board the problem would be a lot smaller.
 
Ironically, this appeared in yesterday's Austin American-Statesman re: the effect of the damages cap legislation in Texas. The AAS tends to overplay human interest stories (and this is a good one) in order to promote its ultra-leftist editoral slants, but this does demonstrate 1) just how expensive these cases are to try for a plaintiff's attorney, and 2) how economic damages alone do not always provide a sufficient remuneration/deterrent effect in the tort system. Not that it justifies unethical, slimy behavior, but remember that plaintiffs' attorneys take these cases on a contingency basis, fund all of the discovery, and stand to lose a bundle if the recovery is inadequate.

Many lawyers avoiding malpractice cases
One mom is told that the new limit on damages makes a trial in her son's hospital death too costly

By Claire Osborn

AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF

Monday, June 14, 2004

Yvonne Harrison said her son had a fever when doctors urged him to check into Seton Medical Center in 2002. Nothing else was wrong, although he had already received two liver transplants and had to be carefully monitored, his mother said.

Three days later, 18-year-old Gerard Anthony August died in the hospital of pneumonia.

After months of grieving, Harrison, a registered clinical pathologist and a paralegal, tried to hire a lawyer to file suit against Seton because she said staff didn't follow the right medical procedures. She said she contacted 92 lawyers, and all of them turned her down.

The reason, she said, was a state law that took effect in September that limits damages in medical malpractice lawsuits to $250,000 for pain and suffering. Lawyers told her the new cap made it too expensive to try her case, Harrison said.

Approved in the 2003 legislative session, the law was designed to limit the number of lawsuits against doctors, help lower malpractice insurance and in the end make health care more accessible.

Opinion is divided over how it is working. Defense attorneys say it is too early to tell, and doctors -- who lobbied heavily for the law -- are optimistic but have yet to see much relief in their malpractice premiums. One major insurance company has lowered rates by 12 percent, but others haven't followed.

"I believe that most doctors are feeling pretty good about what has happened," said Dr. Norman Chenven, the founder of Austin Regional Clinic. Fewer lawsuits means fewer doctors leaving the profession, he said.

Meanwhile, several Austin lawyers say the number of medical malpractice suits they have filed since the new law has declined significantly because they cannot afford to handle them.

"The number of people who have called me where I've not been able to help them has grown, and the stories I'm hearing are heartbreaking," Alice London said.

Statistics showing the number of medical malpractice suits filed in Travis County and statewide since the law took effect were not available.

But in Harris County, which includes Houston, only 40 medical malpractice lawsuits were filed between January and March, compared with an average of 120 filed during the same period each of the previous three years, according to the Texas Medical Association.

Started with a fever

Harrison said her son's illness began in 1993 when a doctor diagnosed the 10-year-old Pflugerville boy with autoimmune liver disease. August had his first liver transplant in 2000. His body rejected it. After his second in 2001, he was put on a strict regimen of drugs to fight another rejection, Harrison said.

Her son refused to let his medical problems sideline him, Harrison said. He was a disc jockey at parties and remained active in St. Stephens Baptist Church in Austin. He had been home-schooled, then took a telemarketing job with MCI and was so successful that he was able to buy himself a car.

August wanted to become an electrical engineer and in 1998 won a University of Texas math and science competition, his mother said.

On June 1, 2002, August walked into the Seton Medical Center on West 38th Street complaining of a fever.

The transplant service in San Antonio that had handled his case had recommended that he get a few lab tests done, Harrison said. Seton staff wasn't familiar with the way lab test results should look for a kidney transplant patient and mistakenly demanded that August admit himself to the hospital June 5, Harrison said.

She said her son didn't want to admit himself but did at the insistence of Seton doctors.

The hospital didn't have the right kind of medicine, and August had to wait so long to get it that his body began breaking down, Harrison said. When his kidneys began to fail, the staff decided to insert a tube near his collarbone to start dialysis, according to medical records that Harrison is using in her lawsuit.

Harrison said that the placement of the tube failed the first two times and that August developed severe bleeding and swelling that crushed his trachea. The staff then had to insert a breathing tube, according to medical records.

"He was conscious, and he told me he was scared," Harrison said.

Harrison said she pleaded with hospital staff to fly her son to the transplant service at University Hospital in San Antonio or to Texas Children's Hospital in Houston because they would know how to handle his case.

Three days later, her son died of pneumonia.

After he died, Harrison said she had a nervous breakdown and moved in with her sister in Lufkin.

She eventually found lawyers who agreed to help her prepare a lawsuit, although they declined to represent her. She filed a lawsuit in Austin on June 4, representing herself against Seton Medical Center and the doctors involved in her son's care.

Seton has not yet been served with the lawsuit, and its lawyers declined to comment, according to a hospital spokeswoman.

Representing herself

The lawyers she contacted, Harrison said, explained to her that her case would be too expensive to handle.

The new law set a top limit of a little less than $1.5 million for wrongful death cases, regardless of the number of defendants. Most of that was for "economic damages" such as lost future wages. But for an 18-year-old with no spouse or children, any economic damages would be small.

That left the $250,000 maximum for pain and suffering. Not enough, the lawyers said.

Bill Whitehurst, who practices at one of the major medical malpractice law firms in Austin, said the cost of taking a medical malpractice suit to court can be up to $450,000.

"It's why this $250,000 cap is so ridiculous," Whitehurst said. "The cost of experts is very high, and you can't prove cases without experts."

Jay Harvey, president of the Capital Area Trial Lawyers Association, said it cost him $3,500 to get just a preliminary analysis by an expert in a medical malpractice suit.

Harvey said he has filed only one new medical malpractice lawsuit in the eight months since the law took effect, down from about one a month before. Whitehurst said his firm has filed fewer lawsuits since September, too.

On the other side, David Davis, a defense lawyer who represents doctors and hospitals, said he has seen a 95 percent reduction in the number of cases he is handling. He's not sure if that's a long-term trend or a natural dropoff after plaintiffs lawyers rushed to file lawsuits just before Sept. 1.

Without a lawyer, Harrison now faces the prospect of going against Seton's lawyers by herself.

Harrison "won't stand a chance" in her lawsuit without a lawyer, Whitehurst said. "The people she will be going up against are highly seasoned trial lawyers, and they will bring in their own experts who will fight her tooth and nail."

Harris said that she already has an expert who is willing to testify but that she is scared about representing herself.

"If I do something wrong or if I miss a step, it's possible the court will throw my legal petition out," she said. "It's frightening, because the people who are charged with protecting us are running scared because nobody wants to challenge that new rule."

[email protected]; 445-3871
 
samurai_lincoln said:
Ironically, this appeared in yesterday's Austin American-Statesman re: the effect of the damages cap legislation in Texas. The AAS tends to overplay human interest stories (and this is a good one) in order to promote its ultra-leftist editoral slants, but this does demonstrate 1) just how expensive these cases are to try for a plaintiff's attorney, and 2) how economic damages alone do not always provide a sufficient remuneration/deterrent effect in the tort system. Not that it justifies unethical, slimy behavior, but remember that plaintiffs' attorneys take these cases on a contingency basis, fund all of the discovery, and stand to lose a bundle if the recovery is inadequate.

I have made these two points a billion times in about a dozen threads over the past four or five months. They get nowhere. They are dismissed out of hand.

Judd
 
Once again, lawyers show their stripes. "Too expensive"? Hey, it's just the same as when physicians came under Medicare and started getting reimbursed pennies on the dollar. Physicians get close to zero for office visits. Did they just suddenly say, "well, no soup for you since I'm not getting paid!" Nope. Because they actually believe in what they are doing. Whereas for lawyers, it's all about payday. "I'm doing this to preserve freedom and liberty and rights and to make sure the little guy gets his just day in cour --- what? I only get a few thousand dollars? Screw that. I'm out." And they wonder why everyone hates lawyers.
 
kinetic said:
Once again, lawyers show their stripes. "Too expensive"? Hey, it's just the same as when physicians came under Medicare and started getting reimbursed pennies on the dollar. Physicians get close to zero for office visits. Did they just suddenly say, "well, no soup for you since I'm not getting paid!" Nope. Because they actually believe in what they are doing. Whereas for lawyers, it's all about payday. "I'm doing this to preserve freedom and liberty and rights and to make sure the little guy gets his just day in cour --- what? I only get a few thousand dollars? Screw that. I'm out." And they wonder why everyone hates lawyers.

read the story. If it costs as much as $450,000 to bring a suit to recover little more than $250,000, it isn't a matter of greed. It is a matter of math. You are delusional if you think docs work for free or at a loss. That docs continue to take medicare is precisely because the marginal income exceeds the marginal cost. Simple as that. This is not true for many of the suits in Texas that cannot be brought.

There is no comparison here. Your view of your profession is too idealistic.

Judd
 
kinetic said:
Once again, lawyers show their stripes. "Too expensive"? Hey, it's just the same as when physicians came under Medicare and started getting reimbursed pennies on the dollar. Physicians get close to zero for office visits. Did they just suddenly say, "well, no soup for you since I'm not getting paid!" Nope. Because they actually believe in what they are doing. Whereas for lawyers, it's all about payday. "I'm doing this to preserve freedom and liberty and rights and to make sure the little guy gets his just day in cour --- what? I only get a few thousand dollars? Screw that. I'm out." And they wonder why everyone hates lawyers.

BTW, this shows an utter poverty of nuance and analysis. Is this the best you can do, kinetic?

Judd
 
"As much as" means that is the maximum cost, not the average cost. And the fact that those figures are coming from a medmal lawyer is suspect as well; I'd like to see some independent figures. Of course a lawyer is going to portray it as if the law was stifling lawsuits (sorry, RIGHTS) because it is in their best interest to have the status quo continue ...right up until the system is bankrupted, at which time these leeches will move on to some other endeavor.
 
kinetic said:
"As much as" means that is the maximum cost, not the average cost. And the fact that those figures are coming from a medmal lawyer is suspect as well; I'd like to see some independent figures. Of course a lawyer is going to portray it as if the law was stifling lawsuits (sorry, RIGHTS) because it is in their best interest to have the status quo continue ...right up until the system is bankrupted, at which time these leeches will move on to some other endeavor.

No, but $100,000 is very typical. Do the math. You can't risk $100,000 to get 1/3 of $250,000, particularly if the chances of winning are 15%.

You sound like a broken record. Calling attorneys "money grubbing" because they can't throw away $100,000 for a 15% chance of recovering $83,000 is akin to accusing doctors of greed because they won't embrace socialized medicine.

Judd
 
I agree that lawyers working on a contingency basis need to be able to recoup the cost of the case plus a little to make money. However, the majority of contingency plaintiff attorneys are looking for a large settlement and are hoping to not even go to trial (malpractice insurance encourages this behavior because the insurance company would rather settle than risk an extremely expensive loss in court). One possible way to limit this type of behavior would be to force the party that loses a case to pay all the attorney fees of the party that wins. However, this is a risky concept because money matters in the quality of a case that one can bring (thus, a person with a legitimate case could easily lose due to extreme financial disadvantage of the individual versus the malpractice insurance and therefore it might discourage legitimate cases). I still feel that the best way to solve this problem (without starting a whole new system) would be for ethical attorneys to assert peer pressure against plaintiff attorneys who bring frivolous lawsuits and to cap non-economic damages (since pain and suffering does not equate to any dollar amount) , just make the damages high enough to be punitive (I think $250,000 qualifies as substantially punitive for 99.9% of Physicians).
 
juddson said:
No, but $100,000 is very typical. Do the math. You can't risk $100,000 to get 1/3 of $250,000, particularly if the chances of winning are 15%.

You sound like a broken record. Calling attorneys "money grubbing" because they can't throw away $100,000 for a 15% chance of recovering $83,000 is akin to accusing doctors of greed because they won't embrace socialized medicine.

Judd

Let's assume for the sake of argument that your numbers are correct. You're the one who sounds like a broken record. When it comes to lawyers, you're a complete champion of action on the basis of the dollar. Fine. But when people talk about choosing or not choosing to treat lawyers (for any reason they want), you're the first in line to start talking about how doctors are "obligated" to treat lawyers. So with us, it's all about obligations and for lawyers, it's all about the pocketbook.

In addition, you're all about this 15% chance of winning. Guess what? The reason it's 15% is because right now, you guys are just suing for any and every thing with very little discrimination. Just because there's absolutely NO risk in suing. You lose? Ah, no skin off my back; I don't have to pay for the defendent's costs. Maybe if you guys started actually figuring out which cases are legitimate, your percentages would rise.

Finally, who gives a crap if the chances are 15%? What, if it's not a guaranteed payday, you won't take up the cause? Nice.

P.S. Physicians have no choice about socialized medicine. And unlike lawyers, when we get thrown into a position we dislike, we continue to work.
 
That docs continue to take medicare is precisely because the marginal income exceeds the marginal cost. Simple as that.
well, judd, this may be crazy, but i don't think those in the medical professional with whom i've talked would totally agree with this. the blow of loss in these cases is softened by high service premiums for you and i.
 
hakksar said:
I agree that lawyers working on a contingency basis need to be able to recoup the cost of the case plus a little to make money. However, the majority of contingency plaintiff attorneys are looking for a large settlement and are hoping to not even go to trial (malpractice insurance encourages this behavior because the insurance company would rather settle than risk an extremely expensive loss in court). One possible way to limit this type of behavior would be to force the party that loses a case to pay all the attorney fees of the party that wins. However, this is a risky concept because money matters in the quality of a case that one can bring (thus, a person with a legitimate case could easily lose due to extreme financial disadvantage of the individual versus the malpractice insurance and therefore it might discourage legitimate cases). I still feel that the best way to solve this problem (without starting a whole new system) would be for ethical attorneys to assert peer pressure against plaintiff attorneys who bring frivolous lawsuits and to cap non-economic damages (since pain and suffering does not equate to any dollar amount) , just make the damages high enough to be punitive (I think $250,000 qualifies as substantially punitive for 99.9% of Physicians).


The non-economic damages are not meant to be punitive. They are "compensatory". They are designed to "compensate" the victim for the intangible loss associated with the loss of limb or bodily function, or perhaps the loss of a life of a child with little or no earning potential (and therefore no "economic" compensatory damages). $250,000 for non-economic "compensatory" damages are plenty for some injuries. It is inadequate for some others. How do you defend a system which treats injuries worth $250,000 the same as injuries with $1,000,000? And how support the notion that doctors (or Republicans) are better able to "value" an injury (all are worth at most $250,000) than lay people, who frequently decide that an injury is worth much more? What is the reasoned argument behind this other than it will, no doubt, reduce the number of suits.

Judd
 
juddson said:
The non-economic damages are not meant to be punitive. They are "compensatory". They are designed to "compensate" the victim for the intangible loss associated with the loss of limb or bodily function, or perhaps the loss of a life of a child with little or no earning potential (and therefore no "economic" compensatory damages). $250,000 for non-economic "compensatory" damages are plenty for some injuries. It is inadequate for some others. How do you defend a system which treats injuries worth $250,000 the same as injuries with $1,000,000? And how support the notion that doctors (or Republicans) are better able to "value" an injury (all are worth at most $250,000) than lay people, who frequently decide that an injury is worth much more? What is the reasoned argument behind this other than it will, no doubt, reduce the number of suits.

Judd

Ha ha. Too bad, but lawyers broke the system and now they are crying about it. They are the ones who don't care about the TRUE punitive costs; their mentality is "give me as much as possible ...and then DOUBLE it!" Don't lecture US about the "real" cost of an injury because that's the LAST thing on a lawyer's mind. As usual, though, you are pretending to take the high road, bleeding in the streets because your clients are being abused, right? It has nothing to do with lawyers making less money, right? 🙄 And of course you would prefer lay people to make the decisions on how much to dole out -- that way, you can take advantage of jackpot juries, whose idea of logic is "hey, the hospital makes a lot of money, so they can afford this! It's time we got ours!"
 
kinetic said:
Let's assume for the sake of argument that your numbers are correct. You're the one who sounds like a broken record. When it comes to lawyers, you're a complete champion of action on the basis of the dollar. Fine. But when people talk about choosing or not choosing to treat lawyers (for any reason they want), you're the first in line to start talking about how doctors are "obligated" to treat lawyers. So with us, it's all about obligations and for lawyers, it's all about the pocketbook.

I never said this. I have said several times that there is no obligation to treat attorneys. Nor have I been "first in line". Moreover, you are moving the goalposts. I would be the first in line to say that you have no "moral" or "legal" obligation to treat people who cannot pay you (the emergency treatment laws notwithstanding). I don't see any reason to treat doctors differently than lawyers. The facts are these. Both professionals work because they believe in what they do (by and large) and monetary reward is secondary (neither would do what they do if they hated it even if the money were great). However, neither will work for free in the aggregate. Marginal income MUST exceed marginal cost or both lawyers AND doctors stop coming to work. As evidence of this I direct you to all those reports of doctors leaving states with high malpractice premiums (even while, I suspect, marginal income STILL exceeds marginal costs, I'm willing to bet).

In addition, you're all about this 15% chance of winning. Guess what? The reason it's 15% is because right now, you guys are just suing for any and every thing with very little discrimination. Just because there's absolutely NO risk in suing. You lose? Ah, no skin off my back; I don't have to pay for the defendent's costs. Maybe if you guys started actually figuring out which cases are legitimate, your percentages would rise.

NOPE. That's 15% chance of winning in front of jury. By then you've spent $100,000 getting there. There is enormous risk in sueing and taking it the distance. The article above disproves your point anyway. If there was "NO risk in sueing" then the caps would NOT reduce the number of suits in TX. But they have. Why? Because sueing costs money. You can't bring a suit if you don't have money.

Finally, who gives a crap if the chances are 15%? What, if it's not a guaranteed payday, you won't take up the cause? Nice.

Are you actually reading what you are writing? Seriously? Are you? No sane person risks 1$ for a 15% chance of wining 83 cents. That's a loser every time. These arguments you are making are ridiculous.

P.S. Physicians have no choice about socialized medicine. And unlike lawyers, when we get thrown into a position we dislike, we continue to work.

Not true. When doctors can no longer operate profitably, just like all other sane people, they stop coming to work. Witness OB/GYns and Nuero in FL. Tons of docs in WV. Doctors are obligated to provide medical care in emergency situations free of charge. But if this marginal costs ever exceeded marginal income, these doctors would stop coming to work. Fortunately, with all the free work they do, EM docs still pull down in the 2's.

I've said this a billion times - you need some introspection.

Judd
 
Never said there was an obligation to treat lawyers, eh?

How about: "No legal duty. This is true." (Implying there is a moral duty to treat lawyers.)

Or:

It is legally defensible, but ethically suspect.

And as for the rest of your argument, read your own post. You prove my point. It's all dollars and cents. Which is fine. But note that when you defend lawyers, it's all "we're here to protect your liberties ...without us you'd have no rights, blah blah blah." That's my point. Hypocrisy in action.
 
superdevil said:
well, judd, this may be crazy, but i don't think those in the medical professional with whom i've talked would totally agree with this. the blow of loss in these cases is softened by high service premiums for you and i.

That is what I said. In the aggregate, marginal income exceeds marginal costs. Whether Medicare, when taken in isolation, is a positive deal for docs is a seperate matter. Still, I'm betting docs are just as "rational" as everybody else, which means that they would no longer take medicare if in isolation marginal income did not exceed marginal costs. IF, in fact, marginal income did NOT exceed marginal costs, AND docs continue to participate, it must be because the system is tied to another incentive (I don't know enough about it to know what it is) - which, in that case, it is not appropriate to look at medicare in isolation.

In any event, I do not believe that docs do in fact work in the red if not otherwise required to. Here's an example: my wife's OB charged the insurance company $990 for her cerclage. They paid him $210. That's 21 cents on the dollar. Pretty freaking low. It took him 20 minutes. If we stretch that time to one hour (for prep, clean-up, etc.) he earned $210 in that hour (surgery center, nurses, CRNA and MDA all charged seperatley). That works out to $420,000 on an annualized basis for his surgery work. Not everything he does is surgery, of course, and he has overhead. Though, not everything he does is as quick and easy as a cerclage either. He probably pulls in near $300,000 a year. There's NO WAY to look at his practice in the aggregate and say he works for free even if he makes "pennies on the dollar" for things like medicare.

judd
 
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