Doctors are So Overpaid!

[nradsoit3]

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Published yesterday in the NY TIMES:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/w...em&ex=1185768000&en=da95b456e8095b33&ei=5087

 

[McGillGrad]

Government employees also make too much, but it is a necessary evil to stave off revolution of the ignorant masses. The more of the 100 IQ'ers that work for the gov't, the less of them are protesting against the gov't.

Physicians have too much clout in Congress to get screwed in this scenario. Imagine the pro-AMA commercials about the lack of proper medical care due to gov't meddling. Game over in about 1 week after those commercials.

There are few things that people will pay astronomical amounts of money for and medical care is one of them.

 

[McGillGrad]

I skimmed through the silly article and as usual, they quote idiots from the RAND corporation think tanks and leave out important information.

For example:

The article claims that European doctors make less but still go to the same amount of schooling. That is FALSE

FACT: European medical schools are HEAVILY subsidized and are usually completed in a 6 year COMBO program of university and medical school. Saving them 2 years of studies and costing them next to nothing compared to the US.

This type of high school journalism makes the NYTimes look silly.

 

[BlackSails]

Isnt doctor's salary less than 5% of health care costs? The salary of CEOs of the insurance companies is more than all doctors combined, iirc

 

[Hernandez]

hmm, this sounds very suspect to me.

"In the United States, nearly all doctors are paid piecemeal, for each test or procedure they perform, rather than a flat salary. As a result, physicians have financial incentives to perform procedures that further drive up overall health care spending."​

My reaction is so? let's put plumbers on flat salaries, let's put mechanics on a flat salary and see what that does for efficiency. I counter and say if you'd pay government workers based on what they actually did, we might actually get a thing or two accomplished.

 

[Hernandez]

Isnt doctor's salary less than 5% of health care costs?

In 2002 it was 6.5%. IF they are concerned about 6%, then perhaps they should easily correct the 2% which is spent on malpractice insurance?

 

[mgdsh]

For example, if a diabetic patient visits a doctor, he said, "the doctor is paid to check his feet, they're paid to check his eyes; they're not paid to make sure he goes out and exercises and really, that may be the most important thing."

I like how he puts the burden on us for getting patients to exercise... 1) like they don't know that and 2) like we don't tell them to?

So say we have a patient who is overweight and smokes. Not only should we encourage them to quit smoking and start exercising, but we should also become their personal trainers and counselors 🙄

Amazing how no one wants to put responsibility on anyone outside the doctors, insurance companies, drug companies etc. Don't patients also have a responsibility in care for themselves? I mean... they are adults right? (peds not included) 😎

*edit* I did click on the link to submit a response to the journalist/author. Basically a nice ramble. I'll be happy to post it here if anyone wants, but I dont think I've said anything different from what I've said before (in other posts).

 

[docB]

hmm, this sounds very suspect to me.

"In the United States, nearly all doctors are paid piecemeal, for each test or procedure they perform, rather than a flat salary. As a result, physicians have financial incentives to perform procedures that further drive up overall health care spending."​

My reaction is so? let's put plumbers on flat salaries, let's put mechanics on a flat salary and see what that does for efficiency. I counter and say if you'd pay government workers based on what they actually did, we might actually get a thing or two accomplished.

The problem with putting people on flat salary is they then have an incentive to do less. If I get paid the same to do a lot or a little guess which I'll be more likely to do. A good example would be to imagine if the working conditions you have in residency were to continue forever without the imperitive of passing your rotations and learning.

In EM we have found that if you pay people based on the amount of work they do they work harder (amazing!). That's why there's a big push away from slaries an toward fee for service/ RVU based compensation.

 

[rainbowman]

Wow great time to be thinking about going to med school. After all these years we still haven't learned that government intervention just fcks things up. Don't mess with the free market.

Maybe I should become a journalist. I need no specific skill set, no advanced degree, hell I don't even need to worry about accuracy or inexactitudes, and I can write misleading stories that are heavily biased.

 

[Faebinder]

Seriously, I am disgusted that there is someone out there who thinks that dropping doctor salaries (which represent such a low percentage of healthcare expenses) is the answer... heck if anything, you are making doctors order MORE procedures and tests to make up for it.

They can start fixing healthcare by fixing the pharmaceutical + medical device industry then fix the insurance industry.

 

[rainbowman]

Of course he poses n threat and will not get elected, but can you imagine john edwards as president?

 

[bulletproof]

Seriously, I am disgusted that there is someone out there who thinks that dropping doctor salaries (which represent such a low percentage of healthcare expenses) is the answer... heck if anything, you are making doctors order MORE procedures and tests to make up for it.

They can start fixing healthcare by fixing the pharmaceutical + medical device industry then fix the insurance industry.

Surely you're not suggesting that television ads from Big pharm convincing everyone and their dog that they are depressed ( do you ever feel down?), have restless leg syndrome ( do you move in bed at night?), and need to be having more vigorous sex ( do you want to be having more vigorous sex?) are contributing to healthcare costs in this country?

Also, the argument that Insurance company CEOs making anywhere from $12 million to $125 million a year is exorbitent is ludicrous! They work damn hard denying all those claims....

And anyway healthcare is my right, and them Fatcat doctors is all millionaires. I says we replace the hypocratic oath with a vow of poverty...

 

[docB]

hmm, this sounds very suspect to me.

"In the United States, nearly all doctors are paid piecemeal, for each test or procedure they perform, rather than a flat salary. As a result, physicians have financial incentives to perform procedures that further drive up overall health care spending."​

My reaction is so? let's put plumbers on flat salaries, let's put mechanics on a flat salary and see what that does for efficiency. I counter and say if you'd pay government workers based on what they actually did, we might actually get a thing or two accomplished.

The other thing about saying that we are incentivized to order more is that I might have a very minimal financial incentive to raise the complexity of my patients (that incentive in EM is way less than the incentive to minimize and more quickly move on to a whole new patient, we make more by being fast than thorough) but if anything is making us order more stuff it's defensive medicine and the threat of being sued. I'd say that greed absolutely pales in comparison when compared to defensive medicine when it comes to increased utilization.

 

[Top Gun]

The other thing about saying that we are incentivized to order more is that I might have a very minimal financial incentive to raise the complexity of my patients (that incentive in EM is way less than the incentive to minimize and more quickly move on to a whole new patient, we make more by being fast than thorough) but if anything is making us order more stuff it's defensive medicine and the threat of being sued. I'd say that greed absolutely pales in comparison when compared to defensive medicine when it comes to increased utilization.

Yeah, and no one questions the amount of income the lawyers make from the malpractice litigation that leads to defensive medicine.

 

[mgdsh]

Nice.

My response made it back to the author and he emailed me back. I've since replied and asked him to join us in the discussion of his article.

 

[mig26x]

I love it how dr goldman wants every doctor to make sure that they check their patients do exercise, like if we could go to every patient house and watch them excercise for 30 minutes!! Incredible how stupid some people can be when trying to cry over doctor's salaries!!!

 

[mig26x]

The other thing about saying that we are incentivized to order more is that I might have a very minimal financial incentive to raise the complexity of my patients (that incentive in EM is way less than the incentive to minimize and more quickly move on to a whole new patient, we make more by being fast than thorough) but if anything is making us order more stuff it's defensive medicine and the threat of being sued. I'd say that greed absolutely pales in comparison when compared to defensive medicine when it comes to increased utilization.

we wouldnt order more if we wouldnt be so afraid of lawyers getting down our throats checking every freaking move we made about a patient plan!!

 

[Faebinder]

The malpractice thing is truly... truly barely touched. People don't see it's true impact. Most people will tell you that it doesn't affect the medical system much. That's true if you think of it only affecting physician practice.

EVERY SINGLE THING IN THE HOSPITAL HAS A CERTAIN PRICE PERCENTAGE GOING TO MALPRACTICE.

See that Q-tip you use to poke a wound with? That a medical Q-tip and the patient can site the company that makes them in their malpractice lawsuit and thus there is a percentage dollar of its price that the company must spend on attornies to protect itself. (What if the Q-tip broke and a tip cut into the wound and the wound got infected and he ended up with a bowel resection and the patient felt that the company should be sued because now he lost a piece of his bowels?) Of course the Q-tip percentage for malpractice is not as big as say.... the Firing gun for a Greenfield filter to be placed in the IVC. The filter breaking inside the IVC can make a great lawsuit (even if the surgeon manages to take out the pieces successfully later!)

 

[Faebinder]

There is also an inefficiency in our system overall. Medicare (government money) pays for many procedures. Well if you know that this year medicare will pay for lets say 10,000 greenfield filters insertions, why arent they mass buying like 9,000 of them so that they pay a lower price?

 

[dutchman]

Before you guys start commenting, make sure the author is not getting any kickbacks from insurance companies or pharmaceutical companies. Don't you think the article is suspect? Computer programmers earn more in America than other industrialized nations, so do pharmacists, lawyers, sheet metal workers, nurses etc. Healthcare costs are rising in every freaking country, and while we spend the most, we don't have the most rapid rise:

Growth in health expenditure > Per annum (Latest available) by country
#1 Ireland: 6.6%
#2 Portugal: 5.3%
#3 Czech Republic: 3.9%
#4 Japan: 3.9%
#5 Spain: 3.9%
#6 United Kingdom: 3.8%
#7 Mexico: 3.7%
#8 United States: 3.2%
#9 Australia: 3.1%
#10 Austria: 3.1%
#11 New Zealand: 2.9%

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_gro_in_hea_exp_per_ann-health-growth-expenditure-per-annum

The most entertaining part of this article is from this clown/internists:

"Dr. Alan Garber, a practicing internist and the director of the Center for Health Policy at Stanford University. Instead, he argues, the United States should move toward paying doctors fixed salaries"

Well my dear genius economist, how do you plan on fixing salaries when overhead (malpractice insurance, clinic employee salaries, equipment, etc) is not fixed?

BTW, put doctors on fixed salaries so they can be excluded from antitrust limitations which was preventing them from going on strike based on pay like the German doctors just did. That way, physicians can cap their work hours at 38 hrs/week like the European doctors have done, and the government can bear the total cost of malpractice and physician education. Then you probably have to ask whose rectum we are going to pull out the extra physicians to make up for the extra work that will be left undone when we all have to work 38hrs/week.

Finally, physicians have seen a 7-10% drop in income in the last ten years, and our healthcare expenditure has been flying in the opposite direction. You know why? Because it aint got jack to do with physicians' income.

 

[LADoc00]

Officially cancelled my NYT sub. Let those socialist self serving pigs preach fixed salaries for atheletes, actors, CEOs and host of other MASSIVELY overpaid SOBs and see where that gets them.

The author is a loser at best and a self aggrandizing Michael Moore liberal hanger-on at worst. Talk like this will only shatter an already fragile system.

Two worlds: ATLAS SHRUGGED, you mother f--cker.

Put me on a salary and I will be gone. Better things to with my life than being the lil bitch of a socialist oligarchy.

Its funny that Stanford OF ALL PLACES that prides itself on entreprenurial spirit that founded HP, Google, Ebay etc has a left wing nutjob like Garber on staff.

GO TO CUBA DR. GARBER, GO TO CUBA. But the get the HELL out of my country.

PS- some unencumbered medical student or resident out there who wants to do good, if they can get a form letter to the editor of the NYT and put it on this site complaining about this leftist B.S., Im sure we can get tons of people to print it out, sign it and mail it in.

 

[docB]

The malpractice thing is truly... truly barely touched. People don't see it's true impact. Most people will tell you that it doesn't affect the medical system much. That's true if you think of it only affecting physician practice.

EVERY SINGLE THING IN THE HOSPITAL HAS A CERTAIN PRICE PERCENTAGE GOING TO MALPRACTICE.

See that Q-tip you use to poke a wound with? That a medical Q-tip and the patient can site the company that makes them in their malpractice lawsuit and thus there is a percentage dollar of its price that the company must spend on attornies to protect itself. (What if the Q-tip broke and a tip cut into the wound and the wound got infected and he ended up with a bowel resection and the patient felt that the company should be sued because now he lost a piece of his bowels?) Of course the Q-tip percentage for malpractice is not as big as say.... the Firing gun for a Greenfield filter to be placed in the IVC. The filter breaking inside the IVC can make a great lawsuit (even if the surgeon manages to take out the pieces successfully later!)

The lawyers usually push data that purportedly says that defensive medicine only adds 2-3% to the cost of healthcare. That's only if you consider "defensive medicine" to be diagnostics that are wildly outside the norm like doing a CT of chest on every patient with a sore throat. I argue that the current "standard of care" for most complaints has evolved under the current litigious environment and therefore the standard of care is defensive. Just look at chest pain. Who here admitted a bogus chest pain today? I know I did.

 

[Faebinder]

The lawyers usually push data that purportedly says that defensive medicine only adds 2-3% to the cost of healthcare. That's only if you consider "defensive medicine" to be diagnostics that are wildly outside the norm like doing a CT of chest on every patient with a sore throat. I argue that the current "standard of care" for most complaints has evolved under the current litigious environment and therefore the standard of care is defensive. Just look at chest pain. Who here admitted a bogus chest pain today? I know I did.

Heh I can totally see how it would work.... "Sir, do you want troponins to check if you REALLY had a heart attack or not? That will be $400.00 more. Oh, you don't think it's a heart attack anymore? Just some GERD?"

Your argument is valid but even if we were to practice not-so-defensively the tests still cost too much, again, it's not the doctor's fault. A bogus heart attack admission costing several thousands and yet the ER doc got how much again? Like $300? Yep overpaid. Shame on them, should do it for free.

 

[YayNakedChicks]

Officially cancelled my NYT sub. Let those socialist self serving pigs preach fixed salaries for atheletes, actors, CEOs and host of other MASSIVELY overpaid SOBs and see where that gets them.

The author is a loser at best and a self aggrandizing Michael Moore liberal hanger-on at worst. Talk like this will only shatter an already fragile system.

Two worlds: ATLAS SHRUGGED, you mother f--cker.

Put me on a salary and I will be gone. Better things to with my life than being the lil bitch of a socialist oligarchy.

Its funny that Stanford OF ALL PLACES that prides itself on entreprenurial spirit that founded HP, Google, Ebay etc has a left wing nutjob like Garber on staff.

GO TO CUBA DR. GARBER, GO TO CUBA. But the get the HELL out of my country.

PS- some unencumbered medical student or resident out there who wants to do good, if they can get a form letter to the editor of the NYT and put it on this site complaining about this leftist B.S., Im sure we can get tons of people to print it out, sign it and mail it in.

Pathetic isn't it? I used to read the NYT for it's solid writing and reporting But I'm not so sure anymore, now I just read WSJ.

But how dare someone suggest-one of our own no less-moving to fix doctor's salaries? I'm not a money-grubbing criminal, I put blood (literally), sweat and tears into my M.D. and provide an important service, while fumbducks like that Scientologist ***** Tom Cruise. I'd like to get paid $20 million to star in a movie. I'd like a ten year, $220 million dollar contract to go play baseball. Yes, entertainers-America's new role models. It reminds me of the Calvin and Hobbes where Calvin puts up a booth selling "A Swift Kick In The Butt", for $1 and he remarks to Hobbes that nobody's buying but everyone he knows needs one. This is in the annotated edition, and Bill Watterson's comment was "People will pay for what they want, but not for what they need." So true.

 

[Top Gun]

Officially cancelled my NYT sub. Let those socialist self serving pigs preach fixed salaries for atheletes, actors, CEOs and host of other MASSIVELY overpaid SOBs and see where that gets them.

The author is a loser at best and a self aggrandizing Michael Moore liberal hanger-on at worst. Talk like this will only shatter an already fragile system.

Two worlds: ATLAS SHRUGGED, you mother f--cker.

Put me on a salary and I will be gone. Better things to with my life than being the lil bitch of a socialist oligarchy.

Its funny that Stanford OF ALL PLACES that prides itself on entreprenurial spirit that founded HP, Google, Ebay etc has a left wing nutjob like Garber on staff.

GO TO CUBA DR. GARBER, GO TO CUBA. But the get the HELL out of my country.

PS- some unencumbered medical student or resident out there who wants to do good, if they can get a form letter to the editor of the NYT and put it on this site complaining about this leftist B.S., Im sure we can get tons of people to print it out, sign it and mail it in.

Amen to this. Why is it everyone complains that doctors get ridiculous salaries, but its okay for athletes, actors, and CEO's to receive astronomical incomes?

 

[Doctor M]

Amen to this. Why is it everyone complains that doctors get ridiculous salaries, but its okay for athletes, actors, and CEO's to receive astronomical incomes?

Because america pays for entertainment...I for one repect all of you and my father is an MD and I saw his salary go down almost 20% in the late 90's. I chose to go to Pharmacy school and now work in the community as a pharmacist. I work like 55 hrs per week and make a decent living. I didn't have to go through a residency and all that training you all went through and for all that training you are worth every cent you are paid. I agree 100% that these "entertainers" are paid ludicrous amounts of money for something that doesn't have any meaning. Peoples health and lives have meaning. Good lock in your struggle. Oh, as a pharmacist for a corporation, I am 100% salaried so whether I dispense a certain drug or not has no bearing on my salary. There is no fee for service, except a $2.00 (yep 2 dollars) dispensing fee an ins company pays for dispensing a drug. Thats ludicrous!

 

[YayNakedChicks]

It really is sad that someone who barely passed and dropped out after the 10th grade can make more doing a few movies or playing ball for a few years will make more than I will in a LIFETIME, and this is with me having almost 10 years of postgraduate education. Every year some jackass reporters for some jackass newspaper or magazine will publish the top paying careers, and doctors are on top of the list. And then people write in that we're overpaid or it must be nice to be rich. Let me tell you something, if and ONLY if you have spent 12 years after high school in school learning will I listen to bickering about me being overpaid. Most of the people who are friends of the family that I debate about healthcare every year at Thanksgiving dinner bring this up. You spent over 50 hours last week in the office? Poor baby. I spent 80. I was on call. End of argument

Like I said people will pay for what they want, not for what they need. People drive in their luxury cars, see me in their handmade suits, check the time, exasperated, on their $10,000 watch, and then bitch about their copay. "Wow, I'm in the wrong industry." Yeah, because I get every penny of that right. No sir, I don't. Whatever the CEO of this insurance company doesn't want in his fat fingers, he gives me. I get sloppy seconds

The last straw will be when public figures, like entertainers, speak out against healthcare and call doctor salaries criminal. People will pay $10 to see MI3, buy the latest Avril Lavigne CD for $20, then bitch about their copay. Support the lavish lifestyles of our entertainers and complain about supporting our middle class lifestyle.

 

[Doctor M]

It really is sad that someone who barely passed and dropped out after the 10th grade can make more doing a few movies or playing ball for a few years will make more than I will in a LIFETIME, and this is with me having almost 10 years of postgraduate education. Every year some jackass reporters for some jackass newspaper or magazine will publish the top paying careers, and doctors are on top of the list. And then people write in that we're overpaid or it must be nice to be rich. Let me tell you something, if and ONLY if you have spent 12 years after high school in school learning will I listen to bickering about me being overpaid. Most of the people who are friends of the family that I debate about healthcare every year at Thanksgiving dinner bring this up. You spent over 50 hours last week in the office? Poor baby. I spent 80. I was on call. End of argument

Like I said people will pay for what they want, not for what they need. People drive in their luxury cars, see me in their handmade suits, check the time, exasperated, on their $10,000 watch, and then bitch about their copay. "Wow, I'm in the wrong industry." Yeah, because I get every penny of that right. No sir, I don't. Whatever the CEO of this insurance company doesn't want in his fat fingers, he gives me. I get sloppy seconds

The last straw will be when public figures, like entertainers, speak out against healthcare and call doctor salaries criminal. People will pay $10 to see MI3, buy the latest Avril Lavigne CD for $20, then bitch about their copay. Support the lavish lifestyles of our entertainers and complain about supporting our middle class lifestyle.

I hear this bitching all day long and it goes something like this:
pt: I paid $5 for this 3 years ago, and now im paying $15, your ripping me off..

me: That was 3 years ago sir, your ins (gets cut off by pt)...
pt: You call them right now and ask them why I am paying this much, otherwise Im going to walgreens...
me: Sir, your copay is set by your ins company, i have (getting cut off)
pt: Why dont you do your job and call my ins company yada yada yada
me: 😡

I feel your pain "yaynakedchicks" but I just feel like this a never ending battle. Entertainers have that lavish lifestyle and will always look down and try to make our "healthcare" better. F**k them, F**K Tom Crusie and those ludicrative ball players that bitch and complain over whether or not they will be in training camp over 5 million bonus they didn't receive. I no longer watch NFL FB or MLB BB, I am disgusted by their antics...end of rant #1

 

[no5no5]

I am intrigued by the comparisons of doctors to entertainers. Of course, if you don't think entertainers should be paid so much, all you have to do is to stop paying them. Don't watch them if you don't like it. The problem with doctors is that everyone needs one. It strikes me that a much more apt comparison would be to, say, firefighters.

Who here thinks we should pay firefighters based on how many fires they put out? Who here thinks that the fact that firefighters are generally paid a flat salary means that they're less likely to put out fires well or completely?

Those of you who suggested that you wouldn't take good care of your patients if you weren't paid per procedure/test ordered/etc. should be ashamed of yourselves. You wouldn't do your jobs as well if you weren't paid contingency fees? Did nobody here go to med school to help patients??? Aren't doctors supposed to be ethical??? 🙄

I agree, btw, that the article the OP posted is lame.

 

[YayNakedChicks]

I'm not completely averse to actors and entertainers. There are some outstanding musicians and classically trained actors. Patrick Stewart, Christopher Lloyd, Daniel Day Lewis, Ben Kingsley. It's these people like that cokehead Lizzy Lohan and such that ruin everything. The world has enough ****ty actors. I try not to support them.

There was a time when athletes had jobs in the off season and rode public transportation to games. Now they're elite.

I'm sorry I'm bitter, but the problem hasn't gone away. It's a culture issue


And I do think that firefighters are underpaid. They work hard and I respect them.

 

[Top Gun]

I am intrigued by the comparisons of doctors to entertainers. Of course, if you don't think entertainers should be paid so much, all you have to do is to stop paying them. Don't watch them if you don't like it. The problem with doctors is that everyone needs one. It strikes me that a much more apt comparison would be to, say, firefighters.

Who here thinks we should pay firefighters based on how many fires they put out? Who here thinks that the fact that firefighters are generally paid a flat salary means that they're less likely to put out fires well or completely?

Those of you who suggested that you wouldn't take good care of your patients if you weren't paid per procedure/test ordered/etc. should be ashamed of yourselves. You wouldn't do your jobs as well if you weren't paid contingency fees? Did nobody here go to med school to help patients??? Aren't doctors supposed to be ethical??? 🙄

I agree, btw, that the article the OP posted is lame.

Yes, most of us went to med school because we wanted to help patients. If you can get off your moral high horse for a minute, you will see that we are not complaining about how much we get paid. We are complaining because some jackas$ had the nerve to complain that doctors get overpaid. We were merely commenting that everyone thinks its criminal how much doctors get paid, but no one complains about the incomes earned by entertainers. And they earn more money than any of us will ever see in our lifetime, but still the American public doesn't seem to think they're getting overpaid.
But what the hell. I'll take whatever income I get because at least I'm earning it by helping people.

 

[YayNakedChicks]

topgun said in 1 paragraph what I've been trying to say in a few posts. I don't see myself as superior to any non-physician. I enjoy helping patients. I'm not some prima donna in here for the egotrip arguing about petty financial concerns. My point is best summed up by a series of questions- How dare anyone question the salaries of men and women who have made personal and financial and time sacrifices to receive the training to improve and in some cases save lives without questioning the salaries of people in the entertainment industry? I'm all for the free market, and I know they get payed what the market will bear, yadda yadda. Fixed salaries for doctors? How about fixed salaries for actors and entertainers. The people with the least important jobs, and this is more than my opinion this is pragmatism should pay the most in taxes. Med mal attorneys, Tom Cruise types, Fall Out Boy types should all pay 95% of their income in taxes, along with the CEOs of these vast media giants. Insider trading and corporate fraud in my book should be considered treason and eligible for capital punishment.

But you know what, I'd like to see what happens when us doctors finally get the shaft so bad that all sphincteral strength is compromised. Like the saying goes, you get what you pay for.

That's the end of me posting my view on this on a message board. Off to condense this into a letter to NYT.

 

[no5no5]

Yes, most of us went to med school because we wanted to help patients. If you can get off your moral high horse for a minute, you will see that we are not complaining about how much we get paid. We are complaining because some jackas$ had the nerve to complain that doctors get overpaid. We were merely commenting that everyone thinks its criminal how much doctors get paid, but no one complains about the incomes earned by entertainers. And they earn more money than any of us will ever see in our lifetime, but still the American public doesn't seem to think they're getting overpaid.
But what the hell. I'll take whatever income I get because at least I'm earning it by helping people.

Yeah, I did notice that you were complaining about the complainers. But I'll try to get off my moral high horse anyway. I totally agree that entertainers are overpaid, but then, that's what a free market economy is all about isn't it? Don't you like the free market? I guess when you agreed with LADoc00, who said, "Put me on a salary and I will be gone. Better things to with my life than being the lil bitch of a socialist oligarchy," I must have misunderstood. I thought you were saying that healthcare should be a luxury, that sick people should be ready & willing to pay out their life savings, and that you, holder of the miraculous power to cure the sick and raise the dead, should be compensated accordingly. Oh, damn, there's my moral high horse again...😀

 

[psychbender]

Yeah, I did notice that you were complaining about the complainers. But I'll try to get off my moral high horse anyway. I totally agree that entertainers are overpaid, but then, that's what a free market economy is all about isn't it? Don't you like the free market? I guess when you agreed with LADoc00, who said, "Put me on a salary and I will be gone. Better things to with my life than being the lil bitch of a socialist oligarchy," I must have misunderstood. I thought you were saying that healthcare should be a luxury, that sick people should be ready & willing to pay out their life savings, and that you, holder of the miraculous power to cure the sick and raise the dead, should be compensated accordingly. Oh, damn, there's my moral high horse again...😀

Are you familiar with Rand's Atlas Shrugged that LADoc00 mentioned? The basic premise is that independent, rationality is what drives the world, and that you cannot coerce self-sacrifice from those that society needs to function. If those that make the world work are forced into what amounts to slavery by the rest of society, it is their duty to just walk away.

 

[Tired]

Are you familiar with Rand's Atlas Shrugged that LADoc00 mentioned? The basic premise is that independent, rationality is what drives the world, and that you cannot coerce self-sacrifice from those that society needs to function. If those that make the world work are forced into what amounts to slavery by the rest of society, it is their duty to just walk away.

Rand's basic premise was that no one should do anything for those around them unless they feel like it. In typical fashion, she pretends that all successful people are "self made" and have received zero assistance and support from society at large. She is simultaneously naive and willfully blind. No one over the age of 13 is swayed by her pedestrian prose and cardboard characters.

 

[BlazerMed]

This is the USA. Regardless of a person's desire to help others, more than anything Americans want to see a return on their investment. That's more or less what the personal/time/financial sacrifices come down to, an investment. Becoming a doctor practically requires a degree in delayed gratification.

Part of the American culture is the staunch belief that no one, and especially not the government, can tell you what you're worth. Who says some bureaucratic paper-pusher can determine what the just compensation of a profession? That's the problem with the whole insurance system as it is now, and why so many people hate it. Someone arbitrarily decided what everything was worth. The free market is so wonderful because no one person decides anything. It's a sum of everything involved. Are actors/entertainers/athletes worth millions a year? You bet your ass they are, because people are lining up to pay out rear to see them perform. If insurance companies and the government would just get the hell out of the way and let the free market and competition work, things would be much more efficient and costs would be whatever you're willing to pay for what you need done.

It's amazing the attitude of the public, though, when it comes to healthcare. As many have said, people only pay for what the want, not what they need. Which makes it all the more amazing that there are people that think doctors are overpaid. What could you want more than your freaking health?!?!

It's pretty much a universal truth: You get what you pay for. There's fantastic free health care in a lot of places, but they're paying out the rear in taxes for it. Sure, doctors in the UK make much less than their colleagues in the US, but they also go to school for practically free. What's that? The government wants to cap my salary at 120k? Fine, forgive all of my educational loans. Cap salary limits and not eliminate the financial burden? You're going to see brilliant people leave the field in droves. They're too smart and capable of doing anything else they wanted. Financial incentive makes people work harder, that's why people bust their ass to work for Goldman Sachs or match into Derm.

In the end, there's not going to be any single-payer system in the US or some other form of government-run medicine. Not when big pharma and insurance companies have some of the most influential lobbyists there are, and the American public hates taxes more than it hates paying for healthcare. Obama and Hilary are blowing smoke up our collective asses just trying to get elected. They know there's no money to take over health care. They have to deal with too many other issues first, and by the time (if) they finish, the public will be pissed at them too and elect someone else.

 

[McGillGrad]

Rand's basic premise was that no one should do anything for those around them unless they feel like it. In typical fashion, she pretends that all successful people are "self made" and have received zero assistance and support from society at large. She is simultaneously naive and willfully blind. No one over the age of 13 is swayed by her pedestrian prose and cardboard characters.

👍

 

[McGillGrad]

Sure, doctors in the UK make much less than their colleagues in the US, but they also go to school for practically free. What's that? The government wants to cap my salary at 120k? Fine, forgive all of my educational loans.

👍

 

[Tired]

Cap salary limits and not eliminate the financial burden? You're going to see brilliant people leave the field in droves. They're too smart and capable of doing anything else they wanted. Financial incentive makes people work harder, that's why people bust their ass to work for Goldman Sachs or match into Derm.

Unlikely. The central flaw in this frequently-offered argument is that in nations with low physician salaries, there are still a glut of applicants, and in the case of the UK, a huge surplus of doctors.

There will never be a shortage caused by salaries. Medical schools will always be full. Make the standard pay 50k a year, and SDN will still be populated with thousands of kids asking if their 35 on the MCAT is high enough to get in.

 

[BlazerMed]

Unlikely. The central flaw in this frequently-offered argument is that in nations with low physician salaries, there are still a glut of applicants, and in the case of the UK, a huge surplus of doctors.

There will never be a shortage caused by salaries. Medical schools will always be full. Make the standard pay 50k a year, and SDN will still be populated with thousands of kids asking if their 35 on the MCAT is high enough to get in.

You ignored the caveat of "not reducing the financial burden." You can't make a direct salary comparison between the UK and the US because of the vastly different costs of education. Do you really think droves of people are going to take on the debt load of a private medical school to make less than 100k/year? If they are, they're too stupid to be in medical school.

 

[Broken Ankles]

Unlikely. The central flaw in this frequently-offered argument is that in nations with low physician salaries, there are still a glut of applicants, and in the case of the UK, a huge surplus of doctors.

There will never be a shortage caused by salaries. Medical schools will always be full. Make the standard pay 50k a year, and SDN will still be populated with thousands of kids asking if their 35 on the MCAT is high enough to get in.

the issue is quality, not quantity. will the quality of applicants decline? just looking at match trends, i would say most likely it will.

 

[Top Gun]

Yeah, I did notice that you were complaining about the complainers. But I'll try to get off my moral high horse anyway. I totally agree that entertainers are overpaid, but then, that's what a free market economy is all about isn't it? Don't you like the free market? I guess when you agreed with LADoc00, who said, "Put me on a salary and I will be gone. Better things to with my life than being the lil bitch of a socialist oligarchy," I must have misunderstood. I thought you were saying that healthcare should be a luxury, that sick people should be ready & willing to pay out their life savings, and that you, holder of the miraculous power to cure the sick and raise the dead, should be compensated accordingly. Oh, damn, there's my moral high horse again...😀

You're right. I should have made myself clearer by only quoting the line LA Doc00 wrote about fixed salaries for actors and entertainers. I am honored, though, that you think of me as a Christlike figure.😀

 

[no5no5]

You're right. I should have made myself clearer by only quoting the line LA Doc00 wrote about fixed salaries for actors and entertainers. I am honored, though, that you think of me as a Christlike figure.😀

 

[no5no5]

Are you familiar with Rand's Atlas Shrugged that LADoc00 mentioned? The basic premise is that independent, rationality is what drives the world, and that you cannot coerce self-sacrifice from those that society needs to function. If those that make the world work are forced into what amounts to slavery by the rest of society, it is their duty to just walk away.

I am actually familiar with it, yes. Thanks for asking.

 

[Trismegistus4]

Amen to this. Why is it everyone complains that doctors get ridiculous salaries, but its okay for athletes, actors, and CEO's to receive astronomical incomes?

Because health care is a FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHT! zomg the UN said so!!!!!!!!!!11111!!!1

Seriously, things are never going to get better if medicine is going to be dominated by liberal docs like the internist cited in that article. I'm just starting medical school now and while I expected the majority of my classmates to be somewhat liberal in their general outlook on life, I've been astounded at how far left most of them are. Almost everyone I've overheard talking about any aspect of politics, culture, or society has expressed overwhelmingly liberal views. On their Facebook profiles, probably a good 50% of them listed "very liberal" for their political views, with probably another 45% listing "liberal," and most of the remaining 5% divided between "moderate" and "other"--there are literally about 2 who put "conservative". As long as medical schools are going to select for these people, the profession is going to continue on a suicide course.

 

[mgdsh]

Thanks for your note. I hope the article made clear that I don't think doctors are overpaid. Given that the average Goldman Sachs employee made $622,000 last year, and first-year lawyers in New York now make close to $200,000, paying doctors a quarter-million dollars a year hardly seems excessive, especially considering the cost of medical school.

The more important issue is the way that doctors are paid. If I had heart disease or cancer, I would want my doctor to make the same (or a very similar) amount no matter what procedure he or she recommended. And it seems unfortunate that primary care, ER, and pediatric doctors -- who are the doctors most patients see most of the time -- are paid less than others under the current system.

I have now gotten more than 100 emails about the article, and the only point that everyone seems to agree on is that the level of frustration with the current model -- among doctors, patients, and the corporations that buy insurance -- is enormous. Eventually the gridlock will have to break... let's hope.

Alex

Above is the author's reply back to me. Kind of amusing how he hasn't taken the time to discuss his own article with us, after I've invited him to do so. 🙄

Personally I love how he leaves out crucial details in his article about how doctors don't pay nearly as much for their educations in other countries, how they work much fewer hours, and how much other professions (with as much schooling) make in comparison, like he pointed out in his reply.

 

[psychbender]

I am actually familiar with it, yes. Thanks for asking.

I'm just being an ass (my default), and checking. What with all the sarcasm being flung about and all those "high horse" comments.

Though, Tired brings up an interesting point: If an individual owes everything they have to society at large, at what point (if any) has that person paid back his 'debt' to society, and gets to switch sides? When has a person put so much into the system, done so much for society as a whole, that they cease to "owe" their success to the rest of the mass? When can a person just leave?

 

[no5no5]

I'm just being an ass (my default), and checking. What with all the sarcasm being flung about and all those "high horse" comments.

Though, Tired brings up an interesting point: If an individual owes everything they have to society at large, at what point (if any) has that person paid back his 'debt' to society, and gets to switch sides? When has a person put so much into the system, done so much for society as a whole, that they cease to "owe" their success to the rest of the mass? When can a person just leave?

Never. Just like society as a whole never stops owing us. You'd be much worse off if society gave up on you than society would be if you gave up on it.

 

[Chakrabs]

Zach Braff, who plays Dr. Dorien on Scrubs is paid over 300k PER EPISODE. Thats right, he gets paid twice my entire medical school education to pretend to be a doctor.

 

[docB]

Zach Braff, who plays Dr. Dorien on Scrubs is paid over 300k PER EPISODE. Thats right, he gets paid twice my entire medical school education to pretend to be a doctor.

Years ago. At the hight of the TV show ER, when I was just a premed doing volunterr shifts in the ED the attending starts assessing a drunk guy.
EP: Hi. I'm Dr. X. Why are you here in the ER tonight?
Pt: So you're som sorta wannabe George Clooney?
Pause
EP: No. George Clooney is a wannabe me.

It was a good chuckle. It is funny that pretend doctors, cops and firefighters make so much more than the real ones.