Doctor's Attitude

[maybemed]

I just wanted to know if anybody out there can relate? I have been working at hospital as a research assistant and the docotors there work on this big "cast system" I know this sounds wierd, but the higher their position the worse they treat the people below them. The doctor i work for is really bad. He yells at me for everything and expects me to know things he hasn't even showed me yet! He's jsut as bad with his residents. Is this a typical "doctor attitude"? and if it is how should I deal with it? Thanks for your help!

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[reed0104]

what type of doctor is he? pathology, infectious disease, etc...? Is he research and teaching only or does he practice too?

 

[moo]

Sadly, all too often, we run into people who just make bad doctors. I ran into one at the hospital where I work. She is pretty young (I'm guessing a resident maybe?), but her attitude toward nurses is appalling. She yells at them whenever they try to tell the doctor what they think of a particular patient and has absolutely no respect for them.

 

[tristate]

That's sad moo.

Personally, I have the deepest respect for nurses, nurse practitioners, orderlys, PAs, and other health care workers. They do the "dirty work", and get the least amount of respect.

During your clinicals, set an example to residents and chiefs by showing them how a real doctor acts. The last thing they need is to be upstaged by a medical student.

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And the blessings just keep coming!

 

[maybemed]

To answer Reed0104, the doctor I work for is a practicing anesthesiologist ( director of the department, actually). He also does research...alot of research. When I started working for him, he had 3 studies going on at the same time and everything was pretty much a mess in terms of how the data was organized and collected. I came in and really organized things and now everything is running smoothly, but it seems that the more I do the more he asks of me. He even has me doing secretary stuff. I've never even gotten a thank you. Sorry, I know this is not a therapy session! I just want to know if this is typical of doctors in high positions? Thanks!

 

[Nanon]

Dear Maybe-

I suspect that his attitude has less to do with the fact that he's a doctor and more to do with his high position. Sounds to me like he suffers from "bad boss syndrome."

I worked for many years before I started college as a programmer, and I can't tell you how many bosses I had that were, shall we say, not people I'd invite to a cocktail party. Rude, abusive, ungrateful and pretentious pretty much sums it up. On the other hand, I lucked out a few times with bosses who were kind, or at least stayed out of my way.

I once had a boss that asked me to buy a particular kind of milk every three days. I had to make sure that it was in the office before she got there (7am) even though I had to commute an hour to get to work, and my shift (I was salaried) started at 9am. This, and I was the lead programmer. She fired me at least once every two weeks for some minor infraction, like not introducing her properly to clients, and once for laughing at a joke she didn't like. Needless to say, I quit after three months.

Nanon

 

[Dr. FS]

You should write this post in the "Medical Student Forum" instead of here. they may have much more to say than pre-meds like us...

Most doctor i know are just as you described your bastard boss.

No matter what the concequences might be, you should stand up to him, say what you have to say, and quit the job if you have to. But you will keep your pride and honor. one should always do what one think is right, you will never be wrong on that one.

Dr. FS

 

[Matt Norman]

As an EMT in an ER for the last 3 years and a recent grad from nursing school, I believe that attitude has little to do with specialty or position. Just like anything else in life some people are just ass holes. I know ascular surgeons that are as cool as they can be. There is one of the ER docs I work with who is just like a regular person, he just happens to be an MD. Hell, I even know a nice neurosurgeon. However, I also know a lot of doc in each of these specialties who are major ass holes. I think it is just a personal thing. Some poeple are jjust ass holes.

Matt

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Love God, Hate Sin

 

[youngjock]

You think that after med. schools admssion offices weed out all the bad ones, every doctors would be really nice as the first day they interviewed.

Well, there are just lots of them getting in medicine for the money.

That is why I am saying that we need more med. schools, and more competitions. so doctors' pay would be less, and those who apply would be only those who really care about the patients.

check out "the big conspiracy" at "everyone" section.

 

[dlbruch]

"Well, there are just lots of them getting in medicine for the money."

Youngjock- What evidence or research can you point me toward to substantiate this claim? I would like to know how you have been made aware of this problem. As a fellow scientist, I assume you would not make such a claim unless you could back it up with something solid, so let's see it.

 

[moo]

Increasing med schools leads to decreased competetion and lower pay for doctors, right youngjock? Thus lower pay for doctors means less and less people would go into medicine, thus increasing the need for more doctors. I read your argument in the other forum, and it doesn't make sense. No one would go into medicine (spend 10 or more years of your life after high school with a huge debt after you graduate) purely "to help people." Why? Because they can't survive!!! Imagine trying to repay a 100000 debt on a salary of say 60k-70k a year (or whatever amount you are proposing docs should get). It can't be done!!! (keep in mind after you graduate, interest starts to accrue)

 

[raindodger]

Poor grammar is the first warning sign that an argument has flaws.

I'm not going to waste my time trying to argue with a block of wood.

If there was, in fact, such a 'conspiracy', then medical schools would have made changes many many years ago. Besides, one of the reasons admission to medical schools is so fierce right now, is because of trendy television programming and a poor economy back in the late 80s and early 90s. Adcoms i've spoken with have agreed with me on this. Five or six years from now, the applicant population will return back to the way it was in the mid 1980's. This, so called, conspiracy theory failed decades ago, and it will fail in the next few years as well.

So why not drop this charade? If you can't get in now, wait a couple of years, do a post-bacc, learn some English, and then reapply in 2006.

This pathetic argument reminds me of those pre-med students who blame affirmative action programs and minorities, for their inability to matriculate.

Get real.

-raindodger

 

[fiatslug]

Youngjock, you are right. There is a conspiracy to keep uninformed idiots out of medical school. Thank God it's working!

 

[Stephen Ewen]

As one with academic medicine as part of his bent, I have long thought about this issue of why so many doctors have serious personality problems. What I have come to is not very pretty.

What I have come to is that it very often is related to the developmental disorganization that so often accompanies the most common path to medical training. To help understand this, it may help to make some generalizations for evaluative purposes.

Specifically, these ones often (rarely?) have the necessary time to develop a rich social and emotional life. Usually, they graduated from a rigorous high school career so they could enter very soon into a competitive college where each "B" meant a coffin nail in their chances for medical school acceptance. While there, they volunteered every extra hour and all summer long in a medical setting, and studied for and took the rigorous MCAT in between. They then applied to as many medical schools as possible, and criss-crossed the nation for evaluative interviews. They were typically rejected the first go around which spurned a renewed frenzy of ad-com satisfying activites. They repeated the whole application process and this time, eventually matriculated into and studied within one of the most rigorous courses of study on the planet (i.e., medical school). They then entered into the often insane work hours which are a U.S. residency, then quickly entered into medical practice to start paying on their debts which they often just now have stopped to discover have become a monster. Amidst all these events over all 11-15 of these years, they have also had to try and remain somewhat of social beings, which for many meant the characteristically consuming endeavor of finding and marrying a mate and becoming parents.

This all serves to show what frequently has been happening all along: this person has been so infected with "doctoritis" that he has has forgotten about something very impotant. He has forgotten to grow up, at least in many important ways. Too often, such ones find themselves in many ways teenagers, but stuck in the 30 year old body of a physician.

Is it any wonder so many come across as described in the original post?

We are thankful for the exceptions, and being one of them is perhaps the very most important endeavor of the physician in development. It is all about staying human in the process, and doing calculated activities that bring about a strong personal, social, and emotional development over a long enough period of time before even subjecting one's self to it.

That's my best take on this.

 

[mj]

Originally posted by raindodger:
Poor grammar is the first warning sign that an argument has flaws...

If there was, in fact, such a 'conspiracy', then medical schools would have made changes many many years ago.

-raindodger

I'm sorry. I'm not an English major and certainly not in the habit of correcting someone elses English, but given the content of the post...

Shouldn't it be "If there were, in fact, such a conspiracy"

hhhmmm

Maybe poor grammar isn't the "first warning sign that an argument has flaws"

Whether one agrees with Youngjock's arguments or not, the continual personal attacks on him make me think he has a lot more maturity to be a physician than many of the posters arguing against him. Have you noticed he hasn't made even one disparaging remark despite the character attacks?

Stephen's post makes some really interesting arguments. I wonder how much the current competitive environment to get into med school plays into that scenario.

mj

[This message has been edited by mj (edited 07-12-2000).]

 

[raindodger]

nope, my previous post was correct.

Not to get anal retentive here, but 'were' is used in a plural context, where 'was' is used in a singular context.

'Conspiracy' is singular and 'conspiracies' is plural.

i.e. We were at the bowling alley vs. I was at the bowling alley.

-raindodger

 

[youngjock]

Why is there a tuition different between public and private schools?

No one said that med. students must use their own money to pay for their own education.

the government can pay less to the doctors, so it can use those extra money to educate more future doctors.

Hence, more doctors would mean more personal interact with patients and less healthcare fees. It is always the rich people who have bad attitudes. they think that they are rich, so they can order people around.

some doctors get paid so much that they think that money can buy everything.

 

[dlbruch]

Actually, Raindodger, you are incorrect. If your statement were using the past tense you would be right. But you were actually using the subjunctive tense- you should have used were. As in, "If I were ten years younger . . ."

"some doctors get paid so much that they think that money can buy everything."
Again, Youngjock, you throw out these profound and yet completely unfounded statements without a clue as to their accuracy. Your anectodal assertions and repeated, unsubstantiated arguements only continue to demonstrate your immaturity and stubborn refusal to accept reality.

 

[mj]

Thank you DL. I thought so too.

As for your question to youngjock, have you read the "big conspiracy" thread lately? The outpouring of posters saying they wouldn't go into medicine if it weren't at least partly for the money was substantial. I agree that posters on a board are only a subjective source, but the thoughts at least add some validity to his argument.

Are you really going to argue that many premeds don't, at least in part, see medicine as a viable career choice because of the guaranteed high salary?

mj

 

[dlbruch]

"Are you really going to argue that many premeds don't, at least in part, see medicine as a viable career choice because of the guaranteed high salary?"

No, I am not. The reality is that many, I am sure, are willing to pursue medicine as a career becuase of the guaranteed high salary. I disagree, however, that money is a primary motivating factor. As many others have posted, there are much easier, shorter, and similarly respectable routes to making money. Anyone who pursues medicine for the money is unwise IMHO. Plus, I trust that adcoms would see through the shallow motivation. I argue that the nobilty of the profession, concern for others, and the challenging nature of the career are much more motivating than money.

As for Youngjock, he/she makes blanket statements based on assumption and anecdotal evidence, which we would surely all agree is bad science and poor logic.

 

[XENA]

I agree with mj on this one. I think that a big reason why many people go into medicine is the high salary factor. Thanks to the clever tactics of the AMA, which substantially limit the number of new physicians produced annually (including limiting the number of medical school seats and the certification of new physicians immigrating into the US), medical practice continues to be lucrative even in the era of managed care and HMOs. I'm not saying that this is the only factor, but having a salary that is relatively stable to ups and downs of the economy is very desirable. When scores are engineers are laid off X number of years from now when the bull market collapses, I doubt that you will see physicians complaining about their salaries...

Furthermore, I also think that the prestige and respect physicians are granted by society is another significant impetus for many wannabe physicians. In an extensive sociological survey which ranked the prestige/respect accorded to different occupations by the general public, the profession of the physician came in first with 86 prestige points. The next highest score was around 75 and was for judges or dentists (I don't remember which). Consequently, pride is probably another significant motivating factor for future physicians.

Anyway, prestige, respect, and a high salary all add up to one thing: POWER. The heirarchical system in the hospital only adds to a physician's sense of power. Therefore I am not at all surprised by this power-hungry a**hole doctor that maybemed describes. Stephen Ewan's description of the average doctor as somewhat emotionally and socially stunted adds to this. If such an immature physican gets all of his/her self-worth from wielding power, it is not surprising that he/she often abuses this power.

Just my thoughts.

And another thing - Is it really necessary to attack youngjock himself/herself rather than his/her arguments? Save the personal attacks for the presidential horserace. It would be nice to limit what goes on in these forums to rational discussions.

xena

[This message has been edited by XENA (edited 07-12-2000).]

 

[youngjock]

here is one simple rule.

med. school applications go up when the economic is down.

Well, what does that tell you? do tell me more people apply during economical hardship because they are compelled to cure others?

Money is the only driving force in this process.

Therefore, my suggestion is very true. Hence, i remain sincerely unconvinced.

Back to the topic. People who are rude to others, treating others bad, they tend to be those people who are in power. Who are the people in power, they are the people who have the money.

Therefore, money can determine a person's attitude. If you take out the money, doctors will truely be humble servants as some may have claimed.

 

[maybemed]

I just wanted to thank the people that actually answered my original question. I think it is pretty sad that in a profession where caring for others IS the profession (instead of part of it) there are people like the doctor I work for who do very little of it. What's even sadder is that my boss is not the only doctor I have encountered that has this attitude. It seems that it has less to do with the money and more to do with what it takes to actually make it in the medical field. It almost seems to me that that attitude is part of what got these people into their high positions. If stepping on the "little people" is what it takes to be a good doctor then, it makes me wonder whether I want to be a part of that and whether med-schools promote this type of behavior.

 

[youngjock]

You know, who you should blame?

the med school which that doctor was trained.

It is quite clear that that med school admission people were fooled by this person. He was very well disgusing himself at that time. Now he has the power to act in his complete real self. That is because that med school gave him the knowledge to be a doctor.

It is obvious that he doesn't have the passion or understanding of how to be a good doctor. his main reason could only be for the money.

 

[MudPhud]

The higher a physician's status the more his ego is fed.

Surgeons will be dinguses (naturally)!

 

[jlinn01]

MudPhud-

do you intend to say that only dinguses can be surgeons, or that all surgeons are dinguses? do you know any? just wondering

 

[Socceroo4ever]

Eeek! Hope no one thinks I'll be an arsehole cardiothoracic surgeon ten or more years from now! I've heard from many, many people, not just the previous poster, on how rude and cocky a lot of surgeons are. Even my great uncle, a retired general surgeon himself, admits and agrees with that!

Still, I can see the point of each argument presented, and although I can't really pass judgement on any of them, mightn't it be that all of them have a grain of truth? Whenever has any single social problem been reducable to a single cause? One can probably very easily find a doctor who is motivated purely by money, but one can also find a doctor motivated purely by the desire to save lives, and it is certain there are doctors out there somewhere who just want it for the power and prestige.

And then there are those who do not fall into such extremes. Myself, I think I'm motivated by all three. Isn't it the American Dream to try to climb as high as you can on the money/power ladder? Aside from that, who doesn't want to live comfortably, who doesn't want their kids to live comfortably? As for pride: I will take great pride in the amount of schooling I will have successfully (I hope!) struggled through, but I doubt I'll let that govern my attitude towards "underlings:" I'm a CNA right now and know what it's like to squirm under higher authority.

Lastly... even if one doesn't want to help people live, one really doesn't have much of a choice! It's the profession: doctors don't stay doctors long if they don't do what they are called to do.

Just my four cents, well, okay, maybe that was a dollar's worth, but anyhow!

 

[Eleusia]

I agree with many people on this board that some doctors are simply guilty of "bad boss syndrome". Some people, no matter what profession you put them in, will be tyrannical if they can.
But I also think it has something to do with what physicians go through each day. A few years ago a study was conducted of medical specialties. ER docs had the highest rate of burnout and dissatisfaction with life in general. They treated those around them with the least kindness. Pediatric oncologists proved to be the most satisfied and optimistic, and treated those around them the best. I don't think this is a coincidence. Many specialties, especially ER, psych, etc, face frustration daily, and I think a lot of med schools, especially when the senior docs were there, didn't place any emphasis on personal growth or emotional management. Doctors haven't learned to deal with frustration and anger well, and there is lots of it. They can't scream at the psych patient who just through a bedpan at their head. So the frustration goes to those they can scream at, house staff below them. This argument isn't designed to excuse the behavior, but might at least explain it, and offer a possible solution.
I'll be starting Brown med in another year, and they've recently started a program that focuses on personal growth, emotional management, ethics, etc for all 4 years of med school. So far, it seems to be working. We'll see.

 

[drgray]

I think the bad boss syndrome is a very strong point for consideration especially when combined with the aspect of power that a physician wields. From a bit of a wandering background, which includes time as an army officer, programmer, instructor, help desk technician, firefighter/emergency medical responder and immunology researcher, I have come to the conclusion that in almost every occupation there is a definite lack of management training for those in mid to high ranking positions. This is often due to the fact that one of two incorrect assumptions are made: I am a physician (engineer, operations officer, Primary Investigator,? fill in the blank) and it is not my job to manage people, therefore I will not learn how to manage. Or, I am a physician (engineer, operations officer, Primary Investigator,? fill in the blank) and by virtue of what I have achieved I am capable of managing people without any formal training.

I am encouraged by the number of schools now offering MD/MBA programs but I am also discouraged by the fact that the focus tends to be financial "Practice Management" with little emphasis on the people management side.

It is easy to say that the Charge Nurse is the nursing manager and therefore all support functions not the Doctor's responsibility. This is an appealing approach but who is ultimately responsible for a failure in the system? My observation during shadowing has exposed me to some good and bad aspects of staff interaction. When something bad happens everyone points the finger at everyone else and the M&M review must sort out the mess. Better management training of both future physicians and nurses could help to reduce the backbiting and outright abuse of all levels of staff.


Just my $0.02 worth.

Danny