Doctor's Going Broke - CNN article

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The whole point of a higher salary is because a doctor starts to make money to keep at a later age with a debt that accrues interest. Oh, and the fact that doctors directly help with life and death...

But, the article has doctors really not having a good business model.
 
American doctors work anywhere from 1.5x to 2x as much as German doctors, not including vacation time. American doctors get 2-4 weeks, depending on the group involved, and most often to have buy that extra time (eg only 2 weeks is paid for), German doctors automatically have 6 weeks of vacation time.

Secondly, German doctors don't get paid "50k", they get paid around 100k for primary care, according to this piece on NPR (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91931036). Considering they have zero debt burden, can practice far sooner and don't have to work insane hours like American doctors, that's an amazing deal.

I have no idea where npr got its sources from - my relative is a physician in Germany and her starting salary was above 41K USD and after 10 years(!) of practice she is hitting just over 50K

Don't take my word for it:

http://www.globalaging.org/health/world/2006/packing.htm

Nevertheless, a general trend is clear: Estimates of hospital doctors' average annual earnings in 2002 ranged from $35,000 to $56,000 in Germany; $127,285 in Britain; and $165,000 to $268,000 in the US. Swedish hospital doctor salaries were estimated at only $56,000 a year - similar to the German figures.

Another source:

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Like I clearly stated in my example - food we take for granted in USA like going to McDonalds or take out Pizza are considered luxuries in Germany. This is something you only eat on special occasions. The price of staple food is also very very expensive - you are always on a budget and very conscious of what you can pay for. Bread, milk, eggs, vegetables...etc etc are like buying ribs, caviar, seafoods here...

For clothing - American brands are overpriced - Nike basketball shoes costing us 30$ here is always over 200$ in Germany. If you wear a Nike/Adidas/New Balance sneakers on a normal daily basis - people would think you are being wasteful!

Then how do you afford to pay for basic commodities with such a modest salary?
 
Like I clearly stated in my example - food we take for granted in USA like going to McDonalds or take out Pizza are considered luxuries in Germany. This is something you only eat on special occasions. The price of staple food is also very very expensive - you are always on a budget and very conscious of what you can pay for. Bread, milk, eggs, vegetables...etc etc are like buying ribs, caviar, seafoods here...

For clothing - American brands are overpriced - Nike basketball shoes costing us 30$ here is always over 200$ in Germany. If you wear a Nike/Adidas/New Balance sneakers on a normal daily basis - people would think you are being wasteful!

Then how do you afford to pay for basic commodities with such a modest salary?
For real, this sounds (to me) like a horrible standard of living for an educated professional, especially in relation to other countries.
 
Then how do you afford to pay for basic commodities with such a modest salary?

You live a very basic/modest life in Germany.

50K living in Berlin means 1st bedroom studio, taking public transit, eating bread as main source of calories, and owning very basic entertainment (small TV, slow computer and internet, maybe a concert every 3 months or so). Unless you are rich, no one has a gym membership - jogging on the streets/parks is common instead.

Another example: here in USA chicken is dirt cheap. I go to KFC and buy a 15 piece bucket for relatively small portion of my 25K income. When I visited my aunt and uncle in Germany, it was a shock to them that I suggest to buy a "bucket of chicken" - they suggested a meal instead of just 2 pieces of chicken with sides. When I got to the restaurant I realized why - a bucket of 10 chicken costs about 30 USD!

In my opinion, what Germany does better is retirement plan (based on % of your highest income), unemployment benefits, parental leave benefits, and of course free education.
 
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Like I clearly stated in my example - food we take for granted in USA like going to McDonalds or take out Pizza are considered luxuries in Germany. This is something you only eat on special occasions. The price of staple food is also very very expensive - you are always on a budget and very conscious of what you can pay for. Bread, milk, eggs, vegetables...etc etc are like buying ribs, caviar, seafoods here...

For clothing - American brands are overpriced - Nike basketball shoes costing us 30$ here is always over 200$ in Germany. If you wear a Nike/Adidas/New Balance sneakers on a normal daily basis - people would think you are being wasteful!

Just stop you are blowing this way out of proportion, I have lived in Germany and always went out to eat. Of course American goods and food are going to be expensive if its in Europe and not America. Doctors make enough to live well in Germany, I know that. I don't really know what you are trying to do by comparing how much they make to how much menial everyday items cost.
 
Just stop you are blowing this way out of proportion, I have lived in Germany and always went out to eat. Of course American goods and food are going to be expensive if its in Europe and not America. Doctors make enough to live well in Germany, I know that. I don't really know what you are trying to do by comparing how much they make to how much menial everyday items cost.
Look up the guy's name. The SS Leibstandarte were Hitler's personal bodyguards. Not cool, man. Not cool. We just got trolled. 🙁
 
Look up the guy's name. The SS Leibstandarte were Hitler's personal bodyguards. Not cool, man. Not cool. We just got trolled. 🙁


Please do not derail genuine discussion with personal attacks. I backed up my claims with genuine sources and graphs.

1st SS was just a military division my grandfather served in (conscripted into in Feb 1945, he was too young to serve in the Volksturmm) - German military and national socialism are different things. Hitler felt betrayed by the German military in the end, and it was the German military that wanted Hitler dead with the assassination attempt.
 
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Please do not derail genuine discussion with personal attacks. I backed up my claims with genuine sources and graphs.

1st SS was just a military division my grandfather served in - German military and national socialism are different things.

+pissed+
 
Please do not derail genuine discussion with personal attacks.

1st SS was just a military division my grandfather served in - German military and national socialism are different things.
How was that a personal attack? All things must be considered when evaluating someone's credibility. Seems very trollish to me...
 
How was that a personal attack? All things must be considered when evaluating someone's credibility. Seems very trollish to me...


I REPEAT

1) I backed up my claim with genuine sources and graphs

2) I named my handle after my grandfather - nothing more nothing less. Please don't try to read any ideology into it. If you know anything about Hitler, then the 1st thing you would realize was that the military betrayed him!
 
I REPEAT

1) I backed up my claim with genuine sources and graphs

2) I named my handle after my grandfather - nothing more nothing less. Please don't try to read any ideology into it. If you know anything about Hitler, then the 1st thing you would realize was that the military betrayed him!
The original post was about the future of primary care doctors in the United States. Maybe you should post some genuine graphs about that?
 
The original post was about the future of primary care doctors in the United States. Maybe you should post some genuine graphs about that?


Yes. Based upon precedents set by other industrialized 1st world western nations - U.S. physicians are GROSSLY overpaid - even considering their debt and work hours.

Also the fact that the American public feels the same way means capitol hill will let our pay decline in the future. It will be career suicide for politicians to propose salary increase/protection for physicians.
 
Please do not derail genuine discussion with personal attacks. I backed up my claims with genuine sources and graphs.

1st SS was just a military division my grandfather served in (conscripted into in Feb 1945, he was too young to serve in the Volksturmm) - German military and national socialism are different things. Hitler felt betrayed by the German military in the end, and it was the German military that wanted Hitler dead with the assassination attempt.


Can the mods take this trash out? Pretty please!!!!!!
 
lol bucket of chicken in Germany? Really? no duh these basic "commodities" will be more expensive over there than here, that is because they are not native to the country and so they jack up the price for the "exotic" appeal. Its like going to a McDonald's in South America, you can get a happy meal for 6 dollars, or a steak meal for two at a decent restaurant. Same thing, last time I checked a Doener Kebap was still 2 euros, which in US would be about 2.30 and this is a decent meal with carbs, protein, and veggies.

Also, I have friends in downtown Berlin who have beautiful 2 bedroom apartments on Friedrichstrasse for about 700 US/month. You can't find that anywhere else in Europe, especially in the UK/Spain/or France (that is why those doctors get paid more there). Germany in general is cheap relative to its European counterparts. So get your head out of your arsch and stop trying to compare German vs US salaries/lifestyles when you count getting a bucket of chicken with your aunt a valuable cultural experience.
 
chinese medical graduates can't even find jobs. why? because its significantly easier to get into medical school elsewhere than in the US. MD degrees in china are often 5 yr long programs combined with college with barely any debt. and they take thousands of them. funny thing is US accepts that MD degree

it's crazy how people are attacking doctors become they make significantly more than national average. if anyone, they should be targeting the business ppl for having pretty much no debt, barely any schooling, don't save lives, and banking loads of $.
 
lol bucket of chicken in Germany? Really? no duh these basic "commodities" will be more expensive over there than here, that is because they are not native to the country and so they jack up the price for the "exotic" appeal. Its like going to a McDonald's in South America, you can get a happy meal for 6 dollars, or a steak meal for two at a decent restaurant. Same thing, last time I checked a Doener Kebap was still 2 euros, which in US would be about 2.30 and this is a decent meal with carbs, protein, and veggies.

Also, I have friends in downtown Berlin who have beautiful 2 bedroom apartments on Friedrichstrasse for about 700 US/month. You can't find that anywhere else in Europe, especially in the UK/Spain/or France (that is why those doctors get paid more there). Germany in general is cheap relative to its European counterparts. So get your head out of your arsch and stop trying to compare German vs US salaries/lifestyles when you count getting a bucket of chicken with your aunt a valuable cultural experience.



Berlin is one of the most expensive city to live in the world - my aunt paid 1200 euros/month back in 2005 for a 1 bedroom studio in a hostel-like building. This is near the free university of berlin, although I can't recall what area of the city it was in.

Similarly, food and basic life necessities are also very very expensive.
 
Isn't there already a shortage of doctors? I really don't think it would be a good idea to dramatically cut a physician's salary given the very high chance that less people would be interested in pursuing their MD's or DO's if it did happen. Yes, healthcare in the U.S. is atrociously expensive, but a doctor has to earn good money given the debt incurred and the amount of time spent in school/training.
 
Yep! I personally know of doctors with private practices struggling each month to stay open. Tough times in a broken economy.
 
Comment from the article from a real winner with a complete understanding of taxes, interest, and general economics:
"MOST FOLKS IN THEIR YOUNGER YEARS WORK. ah, my wasted youth.
and they made the same pay as me while in med school- so you are the one who does not understand.

200,000 k in debt vs 500,000 + salary yr.

Where is the logic??
It would take less than a few months to pay off, and not an entire career as most docs have lead you to believe.

Question authority, question, analyze, think about it.

Docs are human, not god-like popes."

EDIT: Another gem: "Docs make around 40k/year while in Med. school too, so you're point is moot."

All physicians pay off their educational debt in a couple months, right guys!?
 
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Berlin is one of the most expensive city to live in the world - my aunt paid 1200 euros/month back in 2005 for a 1 bedroom studio in a hostel-like building. This is near the free university of berlin, although I can't recall what area of the city it was in.

Similarly, food and basic life necessities are also very very expensive.

Dude.. I've been reading your posts the whole time, what the hell is your point?!

it seems to me that Germany sucks and the Untied States is 6X the salary better.

If I got a doctoral degree in a medicine and I'm a practicing physician, I don't want to live like I'm a burger flipper, If you like Germany so much, go live there.


****, You are so ****ing annoying.
 
i'm pretty sure they do have programs like this. I'm not sure where that quote came from or what area you are talking about....but

http://nhsc.hrsa.gov/loanrepayment/

I'm sure there are more, this is just the first thing that popped up on google.

You're right, these programs DO exist. However, the problem is that they pay doctors/nurses to go to clinics that have already been established by the community, the state, or the federal government. They do not repay loans to people who open their own clinic. Plus, these programs are only for primary care; the problem in rural areas is frequently getting to see a specialist (who are not financially incentivized to go to such rural places).

Sucks. 🙁

I have relatives that are physicians in Germany - it is a 6 year program there with a equal length (roughly) in terms of residency and fellowship training

If you have the passion and desire to truly practice medicine - then you should be able to accept a career as a physician being equivalent to serving on the Americorps/Peacecorps as your career - the pay is enough for you to live on and do something you enjoy, and nothing more and nothing less!

So, you have to understand a few things.

a) The training is roughly equal in length in terms of YEARS. I can guarantee you that, by hours, it is nowhere near equal. I somehow find it difficult to believe that German physicians-in-training are pulling 80 hour weeks like their American counterparts frequently have to do.

b) The debt issue has already been discussed. Enough said.

c) I would be VERY happy to PRACTICE MEDICINE for $50K a year. However, in America (as opposed to Germany), most doctors spend a lot of their time dealing with paperwork headaches, and not practicing medicine.

Doctors spend a lot of time fighting with insurance companies, sending in paperwork to insurance companies, begging insurance companies to approve a certain medication or test for their patients. They also spend a lot of time writing really long progress notes (mine are typically around 2 pages) for EVERY patient seen in the office - if they don't, they don't get paid at all.

Finally, doctors in America have to spend A LOT of time trying to avoid getting sued. It's terrible, but true. You spend a lot of time counseling patients, so that they can't sue you. Then you spend even more time documenting everything that you said, again, so that they can't sue you. You order unnecessary tests to avoid getting sued. And then, still, at the end of the day, you're still afraid that you might get sued anyway.

For all these paperwork headaches, insurance headaches, bureaucracy headaches, and stress about getting sued, do I think I deserve to get paid over $100K a year? ABSOLUTELY.

If the ONLY thing I had to do as a doctor was see patients, try to make them better, and actually be a DOCTOR, then yes, $50K would be enough (provided that I didn't have crazy high loans from med school). But for the amount of stress I am put under to help my boss make a profit, to make sure that my patients get the basic medications/tests that they need, and to make sure that no one gets sued, do I deserve a lot more money? You better believe that I do.

laptops/computers are to be used for many years until they break down...etc etc.

In the US, the government will actually start to deduct money if you don't have an electronic system to write progress notes on your patient. In order to run a modern electronic charting system, you need...you guessed it...new laptops/computers, that frequently have to be replaced.

Your idea of being frugal and not being wasteful is a great one, but in the US, sometimes it's just not feasible.
 
To put everyone's mind at ease... Yahoo comments were supportive towards doctors. If the dregs of the internet can come together and largely support doctors, than there is still hope!
 
You live a very basic/modest life in Germany.

50K living in Berlin means 1st bedroom studio, taking public transit, eating bread as main source of calories, and owning very basic entertainment (small TV, slow computer and internet, maybe a concert every 3 months or so). Unless you are rich, no one has a gym membership - jogging on the streets/parks is common instead.

Another example: here in USA chicken is dirt cheap. I go to KFC and buy a 15 piece bucket for relatively small portion of my 25K income. When I visited my aunt and uncle in Germany, it was a shock to them that I suggest to buy a "bucket of chicken" - they suggested a meal instead of just 2 pieces of chicken with sides. When I got to the restaurant I realized why - a bucket of 10 chicken costs about 30 USD!

In my opinion, what Germany does better is retirement plan (based on % of your highest income), unemployment benefits, parental leave benefits, and of course free education.
Let's assume everything you said is true.

How can all of these restaurants and gyms stay in business if they are so expensive that nobody can afford their services?

Also, bearing in mind that Germany has the 4th largest GDP in the world and is a democratic country, it seems odd to me that everyone is living in poverty.
 
...
Secondly, German doctors don't get paid "50k", they get paid around 100k for primary care, according to this piece on NPR (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91931036). Considering they have zero debt burden, can practice far sooner and don't have to work insane hours like American doctors, that's an amazing deal.

Well. That $56 K is adjusted for purchasing power. Cost of living in Germany is higher. They may be making more than 100K but with adjustment for purchasing power it may come down to about $60K.
 
"I personally would love to see some sort of programs that would forgive Doctors and Nurses of their student loans if they agree to work for so many years in areas of this country that desperately could use a medical clinic."

I think I agree with this.

There are Federal programs that forgive student loans if the Physician practices in underserved/disadvantaged communities.

"National Health Service Corp (NHSC): These competitive support-for-service scholarships will pay the tuition and required fees for the academic year and provide a monthly stipend for 12 months. For each year of the scholarship support, the recipients owe 1 year of full-time primary health care services in a health professional shortage area, where assigned by the NHSC. There is a 2-year minimum service obligation."
 
There are Federal programs that forgive student loans if the Physician practices in underserved/disadvantaged communities.

"National Health Service Corp (NHSC): These competitive support-for-service scholarships will pay the tuition and required fees for the academic year and provide a monthly stipend for 12 months. For each year of the scholarship support, the recipients owe 1 year of full-time primary health care services in a health professional shortage area, where assigned by the NHSC. There is a 2-year minimum service obligation."

That's a good info.
 
Don't worry guys, one clever CNN commenter solved our dilemma for us:



🙄

Actually that is what they used to do, and as a consequence laws were changed. Now federal loan obligations survive bankruptcy.

On a side note many doctors used to divorce their spouses, who supported them during their education/residency, once they started making regular pay. That is one of the reason judges started awarding them, that is spouses, share of future earnings.
 
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I agree with most of the comments - doctors SHOULD be making much much less.

I have relatives that are physicians in Germany - it is a 6 year program there with a equal length (roughly) in terms of residency and fellowship training - and the median salary for a German physician is just 50K USD, for a surgeon, it is 55K USD. This is not to mention the cost of living in Germany is much much higher. Most of major German cities are equivalent to high cost areas like San Diego, New York, San Francisco...etc etc.

Why do American doctors have to get paid 300K when their training is only 2 years longer than German doctors with equal levels of competency.

If you have the passion and desire to truly practice medicine - then you should be able to accept a career as a physician being equivalent to serving on the Americorps/Peacecorps as your career - the pay is enough for you to live on and do something you enjoy, and nothing more and nothing less!

The average registered nurse in the United States makes $67,000 per year according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. You can become an R.N. in the U.S. with two years of training at a technical college. Do you actually think anyone would spend eight years in college and med school plus three to nine years in residency to make $50,000 as a physician?

I would also remind you that German physicians have gone on strike in recent years. They really just need to quit and do something else. The problem in Germany, I have friends there as well, is that it has a screwed up labor market that keeps people from changing careers.

Furthermore you assume that German physicians are as good as American physicians. Where do you get that idea? How many Nobel prizes in medicine and physiology have the Germans won in the last 40 years?
 
...Furthermore you assume that German physicians are as good as American physicians. Where do you get that idea? How many Nobel prizes in medicine and physiology have the Germans won in the last 40 years?

Well. Most nobel prizes in medicine and physiology go to scentists rather than physicians. German physicist such as Max Delbruck, who settled in USA, got Nobel in medicine; well that was in 1968 just over 40 years.
 
I hope Romney wins this year.
 
Like I clearly stated in my example - food we take for granted in USA like going to McDonalds or take out Pizza are considered luxuries in Germany. This is something you only eat on special occasions. The price of staple food is also very very expensive - you are always on a budget and very conscious of what you can pay for. Bread, milk, eggs, vegetables...etc etc are like buying ribs, caviar, seafoods here...

For clothing - American brands are overpriced - Nike basketball shoes costing us 30$ here is always over 200$ in Germany. If you wear a Nike/Adidas/New Balance sneakers on a normal daily basis - people would think you are being wasteful!

Sounds like a system I want to emulate! 👍👍

(Btw, Nike shoes aren't $30, try closer to $100)


And I'll be damned if I'm going to argue with a troll, much less a Nazi Troll.
 
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Like I clearly stated in my example - food we take for granted in USA like going to McDonalds or take out Pizza are considered luxuries in Germany. This is something you only eat on special occasions. The price of staple food is also very very expensive - you are always on a budget and very conscious of what you can pay for. Bread, milk, eggs, vegetables...etc etc are like buying ribs, caviar, seafoods here...
Nope, you didn't qualify your use of food as an example at all. Fail #1.
For clothing - American brands are overpriced - Nike basketball shoes costing us 30$ here is always over 200$ in Germany. If you wear a Nike/Adidas/New Balance sneakers on a normal daily basis - people would think you are being wasteful!
This is the concept/price of buying imported brands plus the added on VAT (Value Added Taxes ~20%). And unless you are a toddler, I'd love to see these $30 Nike basketball shoes and anyone would pay so much for. Fail #2.

I think you are generalizing far too much about the German people hoping that people on SDN don't actually know anything about life there. Walk around a city like Bremen for a bit and you will see your examples blow up in your face.
 
I totally posted that before. 🙁

It doesn't? Wait, 5 times what? Doctor's definitely don't make a mil on average and comparing a $200k costly education here to a free one in Germany doens't lend itself to a proportion very well so...

You misunderstood the German user (SSLiebstandarte ). SS is saying US docs make at least 5 times the German doc's salary. That's what SS means by 5 times. Not saying a 200k US education "times 5" should get mil on average annual salary, that's crazy. Doing the math, Americans are richer.

In many socialist countries, doctors don't make much more than average citizens. In communist countries (the 5 Communist countries left), doctors don't ever out-earn average citizens.

But also in many countries, people go to med school right after HS! They get 5 or 6 years of MBBS (Bachelor of Med., Bachelor of Surg.) and are doctors. The MBBS is equivalent to MD, and then they can come to North America and be MDs. M.D. in Europe or Asia is an advanced research degree. People with MD/PhDs in Germany etc would make more than the "50K."

American students have at least 8 years of college and medical education. Residencies are not as comfortable or "cush" as some countries. A lot more in year(s) and hours worked.
 
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I really shouldn't have read the comments from the CNN article...it makes me angry to know that there are so many uninformed people.
 
I really shouldn't have read the comments from the CNN article...it makes me angry to know that there are so many uninformed people.

There is no hiding from these people. You will have many patients like this. They are out there in droves in this country. Their utter gratefulness will leave you scratching your head on why you even enrolled in medical school in the first place.

And I don't know why we are all getting ourselves worked up in a tizzy over physician salaries in Germany. The Germans are going to have it good compared to us in the coming years. Actually, come to think about it, they will be better off. Just pray it doesn't get as bad as that in Russia or gasp, Ukraine. Do a google search and you will see what I mean.
 
I'm sorry to derail again but it is absolutely ridiculous that you are all arguing with a man named "SSLiebstandarte." No one in their right mind would name themselves that on a pre-professional forum even if they were delusional enough to believe that Hitler's distrust of the military extended to his own ideologically driven Schutzstaffel, and his own personal guard at that! The SS remained loyal to Hitler under Himmler's command until the waning days of the war in April of 1945. His grandfather may have been drafted, but to choose to honor his memory by naming himself after the horrific organization to which he belonged not only insults all the people whom they killed and whose lives they destroyed but it insults his grandfather, who might very well have died serving these monsters.
 
I'm sorry to derail again but it is absolutely ridiculous that you are all arguing with a man named "SSLiebstandarte." No one in their right mind would name themselves that on a pre-professional forum even if they were delusional enough to believe that Hitler's distrust of the military extended to his own ideologically driven Schutzstaffel, and his own personal guard at that! The SS remained loyal to Hitler under Himmler's command until the waning days of the war in April of 1945. His grandfather may have been drafted, but to choose to honor his memory by naming himself after the horrific organization to which he belonged not only insults all the people whom they killed and whose lives they destroyed but it insults his grandfather, who might very well have died serving these monsters.

Not to mention that he came into the SDN chat the other day declaring that he was Adolf Hitler.
 
I agree, people really have a bad idea of doctors with regards to their income. And most think that their primary care doctor is just in it for the money...If they only new that that physician is among the lowest paid of all doctors, maybe they'd chill. Lack of knowledge is a terrible thing.
It's interesting that in Ontario, Canada ... there's tons of family doctors making >300k/year and plenty making 400k/year, just because of the frequency they can see patients.
 
I took a peak... and then read a few more hoping a larger sample size would restore my faith in humanity... it didn't... I am truly appalled by the ignorance and idiocy of so many people.

Considering most people in this country can't even point out Iraq on a map, think English is the most spoken language in the world, and think that the US-Mexican border is the most heavily surveillanced border in the world, I'm not surprised by their comments. If doctors rake in the money and have such lavish lifestyles, why didn't those commenters go to med school? Oh yeah, because they are too stupid to...
 
There is no hiding from these people. You will have many patients like this. They are out there in droves in this country. Their utter gratefulness will leave you scratching your head on why you even enrolled in medical school in the first place.
This is a sad prospect, indeed.
 
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