Doctors = insecure, needy, fragile?

[skiracer123]

Just wondering if anyone has any input on articles like these. I keep running into them:

Knowing that one is a physician allows people with a very shaky self-esteem to find a niche... it becomes a crutch to their self-esteem.... Being needed by their patients may reinforce a sense of grandiosity, but it is [an extremely fragile mechanism,] a process which has to be endlessly repeated,and being so dependent on one's patients to maintain a sense of self may generate feelings of anger and resentment towards them.

Johnson, WDK British Journal of Medical Psychology 64(1991):317-329.


The factors that motivate us to become doctors are often those which later lead to a kind of stoical and compulsive unhappiness. The inordinate need for prestige and power and the poorly controlled aggressive and hostile drives lead inevitably to professional and emotional disaster.

Zigmond, D. "Physician Heal Thyself." British Journal of Holistic Healing 1(1984):63-71.


Studies over the past decade have repeatedly shown that doctors function poorly by certain indices of mental health.... The 'disease of being a doctor' takes root in a group which is as a whole excessively obedient, quite dependent, and given to passivity and feelings of self-doubt. Poor self-image and a sense of inferiority are common.

Povar, GL and M Belz. "Helping Ourselves." Journal of Medical Education 55(1980):632-634.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[snoopdizzle]

Its rough all over, man. Life is a struggle and there is no easy way out. How do think the psychology is of someone shoveling **** in Shreveport for thirty years.

What about lawyers? What about the "Organization Man" in corporate America. Blah! I'll take medicine.

 

[skiracer123]

Yeah, but what about writers and painters and musicians?

 

[Street Philosopher]

doctors can take a lot of **** that normal people can't even imagine. i'd like to see other people try to function normally when they're under the constant stress that doctors are in for their entire careers.

 

[skiracer123]

Street Philosopher, you're missing the point. Doctors don't 'function normally' as you put it. They are frequently depressed, neurotic and unhappy. Doctors aren't some new breed of person exempt from the negative effects of stress, lack of sleep, emotional pain. Rather they are people who for some reason make a concious decision to expose themselves to these effects.

The question I was trying to ask in my origional post was 'Why?' I have read a lot of articles that argue greed, a need for approval from others, shaky feelings of self-worth.

What do you think?

 

[Entei]

Writers, painters, and musicians? Well, I think the majority of them lead very stressful lives, simply because it's so hard to be successful. Unless you're popular, your income isn't very stable, so you have to "compromise" yourself by moonlighting. And if your art IS popular, then there is always the worry that you are "selling out" and compromising your artistic integrity.

Everybody has stress. This is nothing new.

 

[zbarnes]

Originally posted by skiracer123
Street Philosopher, you're missing the point. Doctors don't 'function normally' as you put it. They are frequently depressed, neurotic and unhappy. Doctors aren't some new breed of person exempt from the negative effects of stress, lack of sleep, emotional pain. Rather they are people who for some reason make a concious decision to expose themselves to these effects.

The question I was trying to ask in my origional post was 'Why?' I have read a lot of articles that argue greed, a need for approval from others, shaky feelings of self-worth.

What do you think?

Interesting a lot of the cites above were from england, maybe thats a cultural phenom. I dont think the same motivations and consequences are necessarily true, especially with us, the new generation of physicians.

Doctors are people like everyone else and so they are vulnerable to all the same ailments, but I would argue that many physicians are healthy and happy, while some are not so. Only, this is true of all fields and people in general.

Admissions committees look for people who have a genuine interest in medicine nowadays (at least in the US), I think it would be hard to get in if you said you wanted to be a doctor because of the money, power, and you need a reason to like yourself.

Dont forget depression is one of the most common of all human problems and many people will succumb to it at least once. You should be weary of generalizations, especially when they come from another culture, and go with your own observations and thoughts.

 

[Skip Intro]

There are three factors influencing the development of mental disorder in doctors and the delivery of psychiatric care to impaired doctors. Firstly, there are vulnerability factors within doctors themselves. There have been consistent findings of increased stress, marital discord, alcoholism, opiate abuse, depression and death by suicide, accident and cirrhosis in the medical community. In addition, anxiety disorders, such as phobias, OCD and PTSD, psychotic disorders, such as bipolar disorder and schizophrenia, and even personality disorders, are likely to be at least as common within the medical community as occur within the general population. Secondly, there are unique factors to the practice of medicine that influence the development of stress-related health problems in doctors. Thirdly, there are factors that relate to the culture of the medical community and the complexities and obstacles for both the impaired doctor and the treating doctor regarding the formation of the therapeutic relationship. The obstacles to treatment appear to be particularly pronounced when the problems are of a psychosocial or psychiatric nature.

http://www.dmh.org.au/dmh/literature_review.html#FORWORD

In other words, doctors are people too. I think some researchers, as illustrated in what you snipped and posted above, perhaps fall into the trap of thinking that doctors are somehow above the common frailties of regular humans.

More to the point you're requesting feedback on, I think you could equally examine this problem in police officers, judges, members of congress, or any other group that seeks out a position for the sole purpose of narcissitically feeding some portion of their psyche that needs to be loved and respected and at the same time a little feared and perceived as superior. This is not a unique trait to people in the medical profession. Now, to say that the medical profession necessarily selects for this is a different matter altogether. If that's the argument the authors are trying to make (and not merely projecting their attitudes and self-perceptions onto the entire profession), then they should provide some irrefutable data to make such arguments.

-Skip

 

[Goran]

"Admissions committees look for people who have a genuine interest in medicine nowadays (at least in the US), I think it would be hard to get in if you said you wanted to be a doctor because of the money, power, and you need a reason to like yourself."

zbarnes, I think that skiracer is hinting at these as subconscious reasons/motivations for pursuing medicine. Wanting to help people can be (but is not necessarily) a reflection of needing self-validation.

I can see both of your arguments. To start with skiracer's argument: Sure, as physicians, we feel good about helping others. It does give us a sense of self-worth. We are drawn to medicine because helping people gives us a sense of purpose.

However, isn't the point of any career to feel a sense of purpose? Some find it in helping others, some in discovering knowledge, some in creating art or music. Maybe insecurity is just a human condition, as zbarnes suggests, and we are all affected by it equally. Perhaps we experience it in differing degrees, but this doesn't have to be dictated by choice of career.

And yes, maybe once we become physicians, we experience depression at greater rates, but this may say more about the realities of the career than the people who choose to pursue it.

Then again, it does take a certain kind of person to aspire to a career with a reputation for being stressful and demanding.

So, who knows? Which is the greater influence: the career or the individual?

 

[skiracer123]

I think some of the same arguments could be made for Judges, Police officers, artists...etc. The difference is that to be a judge you don't spend 10 years without a life outside Law. EVen first year law students who study more than any police officer don't have half the sleep deprivation/stress that an intern or even a 3rd year student will.

I see medical education as more like boot camp in the army or initiation into a frat than law school is:

"Medical training works like brainwashing," Michelle Harrison wrote in A Woman in Residence. "Two major components are sleep deprivation and isolation from one's support system."

The chronic sleep deprivation, the unconditional demands made by the hospital upon the intern's time, the novelty of the experiences, all isolate the intern from former social bonds and intellectual interests, and disorient him psychologically and ethically from his former self and from the lay culture at large.

Groopman, LC. "Medical Internship as Moral Education." Culture, Medicine and Psychiatry 11(1987)207-227.

 

[Skip Intro]

Originally posted by skiracer123
I think some of the same arguments could be made for Judges, Police officers, artists...etc. The difference is that to be a judge you don't spend 10 years without a life outside Law. EVen first year law students who study more than any police officer don't have half the sleep deprivation/stress that an intern or even a 3rd year student will.

Valid points, I'll agree.

Originally posted by skiracer123
I see medical education as more like boot camp in the army or initiation into a frat than law school is:

"Medical training works like brainwashing," Michelle Harrison wrote in A Woman in Residence. "Two major components are sleep deprivation and isolation from one's support system."

The chronic sleep deprivation, the unconditional demands made by the hospital upon the intern's time, the novelty of the experiences, all isolate the intern from former social bonds and intellectual interests, and disorient him psychologically and ethically from his former self and from the lay culture at large.

Groopman, LC. "Medical Internship as Moral Education." Culture, Medicine and Psychiatry 11(1987)207-227.

I sort of see the point, but I take objection on the last paragraph. I think this is what can happen on a short term basis, perhaps, but again I don't think that this is a requisite condition of the practicing doctor.

Also, no one can give an individual "perspective". You have to achieve that on your own. Personally, I've never gotten so intensely wrapped-up in anything that I haven't been able to see my way out. I've had jobs where I've flown all night across the Atlantic after working the entire day the day before, getting about 2 hours sleep on the red-eye, only to have to "wake-up" (not that I ever really went to sleep) just to attend day-long meetings in a timezone where my body was telling me it was still 3 AM. The times that I had to do this I didn't have my family with me, nor any other support group, besides my working colleagues. And, while I hated it at the time, it didn't "change" me or "disorient [me] psychologically and ethically from [my] former self and from the lay culture at large". That seems like a bit of melodramatic and sensationalist creative writing to me. Again, show us the numbers.

And, I don't really see what your latest post has to do with the original argument you were trying to make. Or, are you trying to make some sort of larger argument that becoming a doctor actually sucks and we're all foolish for wanting to do so?

😕

-Skip

 

[zbarnes]

Originally posted by Goran

zbarnes, I think that skiracer is hinting at these as subconscious reasons/motivations for pursuing medicine. Wanting to help people can be (but is not necessarily) a reflection of needing self-validation.
So, who knows? Which is the greater influence: the career or the individual?

Understand that, what i meant was you should have something much more to yourself than that now, less of a one sided person with other ambitions and gifts.

N-e ways how about telling your own subconcious (if there is such a thing) and other motivations for deciding on medicine?

Mine is simple, i get bored very easily (yet can be amused by the stupidest things forever😀 ) and being a relatively bright person was like many mystified by the human body. I also happen to be somewhat of a person that enjoys performing under stressful situations, its more of a challenge. So i combined the two with the knowledge that if you choose to stock shelfs, or anything else, the rest of your life is a very, very long time. Again, how boring would that be. So i chose medicine it would be exciting (trauma surgery, surgery, EM etc..) and every pt is a lil bit different, you cannot (in these fields) predict your whole day ahead of time. Plus just getting there would be a challenge. Helping people was inherent to the position and not neccessarily important to me (for making me feel good about myself, which i guess it will probably feel pretty damn good though). More important was to enjoy what i did with my life, being as close to enjoying going to work every day as one can get.

Beware: Tangent

I am (was?) also a musician, and in a band before school and again the stereotype is also not nearly close to the true prevalence of these issues. It just seems that the public expects/rewards these erratic behaviors from people in a band. If you dont display some strangeness something is not right about you, and arent taken as seriously.

Back:

As with most of these types of things there is some truth but it is far overshadowed by the expected prevalence in such groups.

If your worried, do something else.

 

[Goran]

My motivations for medicine? Most importantly I like to relate to people, going beyond the "social self" we give one another on a daily basis. I like to understand people, to make them feel important, as though they are not alone. I want to be able to develop deeper connections with complete strangers, and though I am aware that this will not happen with every single patient, the ones you do connect with make it all worthwhile.

Ditto on the boredom factor. I need a career that provides a challenge and constant variety. And the human body has always fascinated me, as well as the human mind and its effect on behavior, which contributes greatly to health. It amazes me that tiny cells and molecules play such a big role. The human body sometimes works in mysterious ways, and I like to figure out those things that are not immediately clear and noticeable.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Originally posted by heelpain
Doctors deal with a lot. But, many (including docs) people can't take the stress that a cop takes. That is why it is difficult to get in to a police academy and that the screening process is about a year long. Many educated people with law degrees, engineering degrees don't make it through police training. While academically rigourous, it is obviously physically enduring. Go and visit some of their websites and you will see what I am talking about.

Come on dude, even some of the loser pot-heads from my high school who were barely athletic are now on the police force. Look at a good portion of the cops out there, it doesn't seem like it takes much brains or physical prowess to put on a badge.

 

[skiracer123]

The medical education system, as it is set up now, appears to me (still a pre med) to be built in some ways on breaking people down through physical and emotional stress. I'm sure its tough to be a lawyer or a police man, but I'm not sure you risk losing yourself as much as you do as a doctor.

To complete medical training, you spend close to a decade with little time in your life for anything but medicine. You don't get much sleep, get many vacations, or interact much with others outside the field. Some have described this process as brainwashing, like the army or joining a cult.

I was trying to explore the motivations for going into a field like this.

Those of you who voiced your motivations, ZBarnes and Goran, those are good reasons for wanting to be a doctor. I do believe that people are doctors in part because they like people, studying the human body and helping others. But that wasn't exactly what I mean by motivations.

I don't mean motivations like 'I like to help people' etc. Motivations like that exist in any field. There are motivations for every field that are easy to understand. People are Painters because they like to be creative and express themselves, people are librarians because they love books, people are Engineers because they love logic and mathematics...etc, and people want to be doctors because of many of the reasons you've stated.

Medicine, though, is different. Not only do you need this group of motivations, but you need them so much more strongly than a librarian or an engineer. While a librarian may love books enough to study for 4 years and work 40 hours a week, a doctor must love studying the body enough to study for 10 years and work 120 hours a week. A doctor must be willing to put up with an intense hierarchy, constant tension and pressure and physical and emotional exhaustion.

Why are people who chose to study medicine willing to sacrifice so much more than people who chose to study English, Architecure or International Relations...etc??? Is it because being a doctor is intrinsically so much better than any other profession? I don't think so. I think its because of the people that select medicine as a field to study.

The way I see it, the people going into the field must believe, either:

(a) that the process won't affect them the way it does so many others. That they're tough enough to get through all this and remain unbroken,

(b) that the goal at the end of the process is so valuable that its worth giving up anything to achieve,

(c) that their personality or their other interests/relationships are not very valuable and that losing them won't negatively affect their lives, or

(d) they don't really understand how hard it will be until they're already deep into it.

I think that (c), (d) and often (b) are the wrong reasons for going into medicine.

I think people who value their career above their personalities may not have a strong sense of themselves, or may not feel very positively about themselves.

As far as (b), there may be some who truly are 'geniuses' in that they really want to spend every minute of every day on medicine, but I feel like they are few and far between. I think almost no one you ask in their 3rd year of med school or their internship is happy with the amount of time they spend in the hospital.

But hopefully there are people like (a) who are right. If so, I want to know their secret. Maybe one can go through such a difficult and draining process without losing too much of themselves? How do you do it? How do you remain detached from something you spend 24 hours a day doing?

In Ethics, Aristotle describes the formation of personality: repeated Action becomes Habit becomes Character becomes Personality. If you spend 0 hours a day being creative and 24 hours a day being a doctor in HMO America where you get 5 minutes per patient and are constantly being yelled at by your supervisors, how can you make sure the process Aristotle describes doesn't turn you into an emotionless drone?

Sorry this is so disjointed and confusing, but thanks for reading.

 

[Red514LX]

Originally posted by skiracer123
Just wondering if anyone has any input on articles like these.

I certainly hope I won't have any of those problems in the future. 😱

I think the key is to take everything in stride. Yes medical school is demanding and there are long work hours with very poor pay in residency (although this is changing somewhat) Yet, somehow, in spite all of this, I still think I have it made. To get into medical school, to have the oppotunity to become a doctor.....it's a privilege. That's how I see it and how I'm always going to see it.

Nevertheless, if for some reason I found my medicine ruining the rest of my life, with no relief in sight, I'd do the smart thing and find another career. There's a lot more to life than just work. 😉

 

[8744]

Originally posted by snoopdizzle
Its rough all over, man. Life is a struggle and there is no easy way out. How do think the psychology is of someone shoveling **** in Shreveport for thirty years.

What about lawyers? What about the "Organization Man" in corporate America. Blah! I'll take medicine.

Hey! Leave Shreveport out of this!

P. Bear
LSUHSC-Shreveport

 

[carrigallen]

I'm really upset that anyone would try to imply that I'm insecure or fragile, it's really a cruel thing to say. Can't anyone else support me here, I'm not needy or insecure, am I? well, am I? why isn't anyone answering?...:sad:



seriously though, interesting ideas. I don't think many people would flatly deny your suggestions, but I do think the situation is not quite so simple. The impetuous to achieve something, to pratice healing, to improve our quality of life...it's not an impetuous everyone has. Eccentricities aren't always bad. Suffering during training may not always be bad, providing it does not cause your destruction.

I think the same arguements can be made for other professions...viz. almost all have a higher proportion of certain personalities, certain seemingly unforgivable stresses, and certain kinds of unhappiness. It's not necessarily unique to medicine.

For example:

Many psychologists are crazier than their subjects...many policemen feel more threatened than the citizens they protect...many professors less sure of the real answers than their pupils...many teen idols who hate how they look...many lawyers more confused about morality than their clients...many politicians less scrupable than the people they represent...the list goes on and on.

 

[zbarnes]

Damn it, i posted this already and it got deleted during back up.

I think someone has been feeding you a negative view on life and medicine in particular. Whatever it may seem medical school is not a series of will breaking and depersonalization. Maybe one does have to have a tougher personality but this is true of many things (i would never eat that crap off fear factor for example).

People are willing to sacrifice so much because in part, yes, medicine is intrinsically cooler than many other occupations. Shadow a trauma surgeon sometime and during an exploratory laparotomy feel the organs in the abdominal cavity and just try to take in what you are doing, much more amazing and humbling than trying to argue for some crook so that you can get more money.

Med school isnt a breaking point its more of a growing up and into your professional self (which by no means requires you to be broken), if your worried about med school choose one that is laid back and chill like USC. Med school is actually a chance for you to assert yourself, that is your true self, more than you may ever have before.

The beautiful thing about medicine and med school to a lesser degree is it is what you make it. You can work one or seven days a week (your salary will reflect this though) its your call.

Your mindset determines how things go, if you want to enjoy yourself, you will. If you are determined to feel like there must be some explanation even more deeper and esoteric than those already posted for one to be a doctor your going to believe it, and thats your choice, but you need to think how it affects you. I never considered much less worried about these ideas you brought up and ive never come close to losing myself or being brainwashed. Dont ever underestimate the love of learning and humility medicine has to offer.

Sometimes the process can be part of the appeal, a marathon is rough and the only goal is finishing, but you get to say you did.

On the police thing, that would be an intense stress of a different kind. Officers can be and have been killed at any time under the most mundane of circumstances, which would never leave the back of you or your loved ones minds. Its presumptuous and rude to assume its easy and uneventful, it doesnt matter that they might turn to a fat@ss after getting in. If you lived a few months in their shoes (or just imagined it, watched cops, etc..) you might feel differently. See how unstressful it is to have gangmembers or some crackhead point a gun at you.

 

[skiracer123]

First of all, if you want to talk about how difficult the police academy is, go start your own thread. I'm sorry I ever mentioned it.

Sometimes the process can be part of the appeal, a marathon is rough and the only goal is finishing, but you get to say you did.

But I don't think that's a good way to lead one's life. I don't think its all about goals. Life is just one process after another and unless you like the processes its no fun.

"Tomorrow I will live, the fool does say;
Today's too late, the wise lived yesterday"
-Martial

I think someone has been feeding you a negative view on life and medicine in particular.

Yeah, every book about internship or 3rd year I've ever read and every intern I've ever spoken to. House of God, The Intern Blues, Becoming a Doctor, Rotations...etc. This is not something I just pulled out of nowhere. Read one of those books, every author says the same thing.

yes, medicine is intrinsically cooler than many other occupations.

I know it's hard to believe, but there are Dancers, Mathematicians and Stock Brokers who would say the same thing. Medicine is not intrinsically anything. The things you love about it might be its biggest flaws to someone else.


I do appreciate your advice though. I guess I didn't think about how flexible the hours can be. I'm sure you're right about picking the right school as well. I'm doing my premed classes at a school with an incredibly hard-core, competitive med school, maybe I'm getting a biased opinion. I don't think my concerns are misplaced though, read The Intern Blues or House of God and tell me if you think the authors could have enjoyed themselves 'with the right mindset' as you describe.

 

[Goran]

I know it's hard to believe, but there are Dancers, Mathematicians and Stock Brokers who would say the same thing. Medicine is not intrinsically anything. The things you love about it might be its biggest flaws to someone else.

You should only be pursuing medicine if you love it. To those who are doing so, it is the best. Sure to others, medicine may sound terrible, but everything is subjective.

To go back to your original point that doctors are insecure, needy and fragile. Well, if they are insecure, I don't think most people feel comfortable admitting it. Same goes for needy and fragile. But aren't most people insecure about something? Don't most people feel fragile once in a while? We just deal with our insecurities in different ways.

Maybe those who want to be doctors are willing to put up with more, but the way you phrase it, this characteristic sounds so negative. You could equally describe doctors as being persistent, hard-working, motivated, determined, and so on. It all depends on how you look at it.

If I may ask, if you think so negatively of the medical profession, or at least of the institution that is medicine and of those who are involved, why do you want to become a doctor? Are you saying that you are "fragile," as you put it, and that you find validation in medicine? Maybe there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that, because I'm sure we all have subconscious reasons of which we may not even be aware. And that's ok, as long as medicine is really what you want, and you are doing it for the right reasons.

 

[NMMed]

Doesn't anyone just disagree with the underlying thesis of these studies? I have to admit that my skeptic glasses automatically slide into place when I see words like "Holistic" or even "Psychology," but I think that, even laying them aside and considering the merits of the bits posted, I'd have to simply chuckle and dismiss the papers as quackery, as yet more examples of self-gratification on the part of (you'll excuse the phrase) social scientists.

Hey, I published a research paper in a peer reviewed journal! That must be because of my pathological need for approval and validation. Family practice? It must be a love of psychological domination that compensates for poor self-esteem. Give flu shots? The syringe is an obvious phallic symbol. And surgery? Man, you're going to need heavy therapy for the rest of your natural life. Tell me about your mother...

Now don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that people who engage in public pseudo-scientific wanking should be flogged in the streets. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't re-evaluate my life based on the writings of (exucse me again) social scientists.

Please excuse the rant. 🙂

 

[skiracer123]

Hey, I published a research paper in a peer reviewed journal! That must be because of my pathological need for approval and validation. Family practice? It must be a love of psychological domination that compensates for poor self-esteem. Give flu shots? The syringe is an obvious phallic symbol. And surgery? Man, you're going to need heavy therapy for the rest of your natural life. Tell me about your mother...

But publishing a research paper does't take 10 years of your life. I think you have a point critisizing the subjective nature of social psychology, but at the same time, you can't compare the decision to pursue a medical education to publishing a research paper. Like comparing apples to really really really big apples.

If I may ask, if you think so negatively of the medical profession, or at least of the institution that is medicine and of those who are involved, why do you want to become a doctor? Are you saying that you are "fragile," as you put it, and that you find validation in medicine? Maybe there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that, because I'm sure we all have subconscious reasons of which we may not even be aware. And that's ok, as long as medicine is really what you want, and you are doing it for the right reasons.

Why do I want to be a doctor? I could give you the classic laundry list, and it would all be true. I like science, people, making the world a better place, problem solving, the human body, challenges...But none of those are really the reason.

I want to be a doctor because on my way to work at the hospital every evening I run up the stairs when I get out of the subway because I can't wait to get there. Because I can't get this goofy grin off my face as the resident I shadow shows me how to draw blood. Because I get so engrossed in the surgery I'm observing I don't hear my pager going off until the nurse elbows me in the ribs. You get the picture, I'm sure its the same for many of you. I guess I don't really know why, its just always been like this. But like you say Goran, "I'm sure we all have subconscious reasons of which we may not even be aware." I'm trying to figure out what mine are.

 

[Goran]

I want to be a doctor because on my way to work at the hospital every evening I run up the stairs when I get out of the subway because I can't wait to get there. Because I can't get this goofy grin off my face as the resident I shadow shows me how to draw blood. Because I get so engrossed in the surgery I'm observing I don't hear my pager going off until the nurse elbows me in the ribs.

🙂

I'm trying to figure out what mine are.

Fair enough. Good luck to you as you prepare to apply. I'm sure you'll make a great doc.😉

 

[zbarnes]

what NMMed meant was these guys are churning out papers like the weekly trash, so sometimes the issues are extremely superfluous(ah well).

you sound like you will be just fine what was your worry! thats the mentality that will get you thru unscathed, you just have to go with your heart wherever it lies. Remember the most important thing about a career and life in general is to be happy with what you do and you sound like you will be, i forgot earlier but this was a very big reason why i chose medicine.

If you are applying now what you need to do next year is live it up big, then you may not feel you lost out on so much. Join a band, travel, party, etc..

 

[NMMed]

My point was not that publishing a paper was like going to medical school. If you pursue a PhD, your life is going to be about publishing your research, to the same extent that being a physician is about seeing patients.

Yes, publishing a paper, especially in one of the big journals, is a huge rush. However, saying that those who do so are simply trying for some sort of validation is specious reasoning.

My point was that this particular school of psychology will look at any activity, find or manufacture a (at best) dysfunctional motivation, and then claim it to be a large factor in the psychological makeup of people in the profession. Firemen risk their lives to set themselves up as heros. Cops are bullies compensating for a lack of self-respect. Doctors are control freaks. It's the same sort of reasoning (so-called) that leads to people saying that, e.g., guns are phallic compensators.

My biggest problem is the post-modern slaughter of morality that it all entails. It's not merely bad science (which is forgivable), it's a deliberate denial of what are essential aspects of the human condition. It's bad science, based in a misanthropic philosophy.

 

[skiracer123]

Zbarnes and Goran, I appreciate your advice. You give me some perspective on the whole process. Things look a lot bigger and more intimidating when your at the bottom looking up.

NMMed, Although I'd disagree - if you pursue a PhD your life should be about loving your research, not about publishing papers - I guess that's really beside the point. I do really like what you say at the end of your post. I think I need to read more Thoureau and less Samuel Shem. It does sort of sap the fun out of life.

 

[NMMed]

skiracer:

That's exactly my point - researchers are about research. It's not exactly a lie if you point out that getting published gives you a little rush, but it's also not the most important aspect of your work. Holding up research scientists as idols and lovers of truth is certainly not accurate, but neither is concentrating on the basest motivations. The same holds true for physicians and firemen, clerics and cops.

(Forgive the indulgence in alliteration at the end, there. I couldn't help myself.)

 

[zbarnes]

Originally posted by skiracer123
You give me some perspective on the whole process. Things look a lot bigger and more intimidating when your at the bottom looking up.

This is very true, and it will (maybe it depends on your school) all change once your accepted. Its a strange situation when you look back at it. Some of those authors who wrote about medicine practiced during the time when it was improper for one to want to have a life outside medicine. Now its not only accepted but almost expected, its a very comforting thought.

 

[uclacrewdude]

Dude, being a doctor is a mission of service to others; that kind of job basically requires a need to do good for others who are under urgent circumstances. To be a doctor is to knowingly submit to depression and anxiety, so that others don't have to. People are gonna die and get sick no matter what, so someone's gotta care. We are the buffers that care so that others don't have to 24/7. Your occupation as a doctor is to worry about someone so that patient's family can rest easy, knowing that at least someone is caring for said patient. Therefore, I think doctors should certainly be allowed a certain amount of depression and anxiety.

 

[uclacrewdude]

especially if you're a colo-rectal surgeon, b/c you could get an explosion in the face at any time