New Florida bill will allow foreign doctors as well as American graduates who have not completed residency to practice

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A similar bill has already passed in Tennessee but this is interesting as it will allow US MDs/DOs who have passed boards but did not match the ability to practice under a restricted license. Looks like it will pass in the next month or so



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Can’t immediately find this, but I suspect that in practice this doesn’t do much. You can’t take step 3 without being in residency, and it’s hard to get malpractice without being board certified in something. And FL in particular is a very litigious state.
 
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Can't find any details on that, but a restricted license basically = a resident.

A state that passes a law that essentially allows unmatched med students to become permanent "resident physicians" - at more reasonable hours but also at similar pay grades - would probably reap significant benefits, and I personally wouldn't be surprised if unmatched MD/DOs flock to such an opportunity.
 
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Will have to wait and see what the details are, but has the potential to be helpful. Florida definitely has a big supply/demand mismatch that’s only getting worse. Letting an unmatched MD work like a PA seems sensible.

Definitely a give giveaway to the for profit hospital lobby though. This plus the hundreds of millions to create more residency slots - an obvious giveaway of state money to for profit hospitals who were going to create those slots anyhow.
 
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Can’t immediately find this, but I suspect that in practice this doesn’t do much. You can’t take step 3 without being in residency, and it’s hard to get malpractice without being board certified in something. And FL in particular is a very litigious state.
You don't need to be in residency to take Step 3, unless something changed very recently that I am unaware of. Seems to me like the hospitals would be willing to cover malpractice in exchange for paying you much less. Basically a resident for life.

I wonder if they will get paid more than residents, they certainly deserve a higher salary than mid-levels, and mid-levels make more than residents. Will be interesting to see.
 
I wonder if they will get paid more than residents, they certainly deserve a higher salary than mid-levels, and mid-levels make more than residents. Will be interesting to see.
Since they will require more supervision than a midlevel, cannot bill independently (to my knowedge), and (as unmatched MD/DO) will probably have less training/experience than a midlevel, they would certainly get paid less.

Also need to factor in the supply/demand. Prospects for an unmatched MD can be very limited, especially for those who never actually held a real job before. I know there are success stories posted on SDN occasionally, but on other sites things are much more bleak (minimum wage jobs, medical receptionist/medical scribe/lab tech jobs).

If you advertised an 8-4 outpatient job, M-F, seeing 12-15 outpatients/day, paying $60,000/year with $20,000 of loan forgiveness/year, I guarantee you'd get thousands if not tens of thousands of applicants. That's a better package than 95%+ of unmatched people are getting anywhere else. And that's a little more than half the salary of a NP in a similar role.

I don't know a ton about outpatient billing, but even if you ran that like a resident continuity clinic - with a handful of those unmatched MDs running every patient by a supervising MD, whose only obligation is to supervise them - it seems to me you'd easily cover everyone's salaries (including the supervisor's) and have plenty left over.
 
The exemption for FMG's is on page 83 of the PDF of the bill:
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Already mentioned that S3 does not require residency, so that's not an issue.

No board certification, and medmal coverage, may be issues.

I can't figure out what 458.314(8) is all about. There's an edit in here about it.
 
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Since they will require more supervision than a midlevel, cannot bill independently (to my knowedge), and (as unmatched MD/DO) will probably have less training/experience than a midlevel, they would certainly get paid less.
Mmm, depends where you are. In my hospital, all midlevel notes require attending attestations.

More experienced/trained? Mmm, maybe if they have been in practice for years and even then I'm hesitant. I work with a lot of midlevels fresh out of school and I beg to differ. But who knows. Well see what happens.
 
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I think it’s broken into two parts

So foreign doctors would be able to practice unrestricted after two years

While unmatched US grads would always have a limited license of sorts

It’s also interesting because unlike Tennessee there is no mention that this has to be at a hospital with residencies. In other words, private practices would likely take advantage of this as well


Kind of scary how oblivious the lawmakers sponsoring the bill are to the current pathway. This is from the hearing session

During questioning, a focus was placed on the proposed elimination of residency requirements for foreign-trained physicians. Committee members, including Rep. Kelly Skidmore, raised concerns about forgoing traditional U.S. residency and sought more information on the outcomes of similar policies in other states in evaluating the impact on patient care and physician performance.

“It’s not a concern I have in my experience,” said Grant, citing his personal physician who is originally from India.

In response, Skidmore clarified, stating that her concern lies with the removal of the residency requirement for foreign-trained physicians at large.

“Certainly I agree. My concern is just the residency piece,” she said. “Your physician did have a residency because that is the law. That’s where I have a bit of heartburn and would love to know if there are any statistics about adverse outcomes from this.”

 
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Mmm, depends where you are. In my hospital, all midlevel notes require attending attestations.

More experienced/trained? Mmm, maybe if they have been in practice for years and even then I'm hesitant. I work with a lot of midlevels fresh out of school and I beg to differ. But who knows. Well see what happens.
All midlevel notes requiring attending attestations is likely your specific hospital policy, and I would say is unusual. Granted that I do not know the laws in every state, but there is no real reason to have APPs if they can't bill. "I discussed this patient's care with NP X" is not an attestation, it's a co-sign. Your hospital likely requires a certain percentage of APP notes to be co-signed (which could be 100%), but it's in no way comparable to a resident note for a patient, where, for billing purposes, the attending must document that they personally saw and assessed the patient. The simple distinction is the NP has an independent state license awarded by the medical board; the resident (generally) does not.

And you may work with a lot of midlevels fresh out of school, but how many unmatched MDs do you work with? We're not comparing NPs to interns, we're comparing them to people whose med school performance has led them to both fail to match and fail to SOAP, probably multiple times. Average NP salary in Florida is over $100K; do you honestly think any for-profit hospital is going to offer unmatched MDs with no work experience more than that?

But I agree we can see what happens, rather than speculate.
 
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All midlevel notes requiring attending attestations is likely your specific hospital policy, and I would say is unusual. Granted that I do not know the laws in every state, but there is no real reason to have APPs if they can't bill. "I discussed this patient's care with NP X" is not an attestation, it's a co-sign. Your hospital likely requires a certain percentage of APP notes to be co-signed (which could be 100%), but it's in no way comparable to a resident note for a patient, where, for billing purposes, the attending must document that they personally saw and assessed the patient. The simple distinction is the NP has an independent state license awarded by the medical board; the resident (generally) does not.

And you may work with a lot of midlevels fresh out of school, but how many unmatched MDs do you work with? We're not comparing NPs to interns, we're comparing them to people whose med school performance has led them to both fail to match and fail to SOAP, probably multiple times. Average NP salary in Florida is over $100K; do you honestly think any for-profit hospital is going to offer unmatched MDs with no work experience more than that?

But I agree we can see what happens, rather than speculate.
The NP license in Florida is issued by the Board of Nursing not Medical Board.
 
All midlevel notes requiring attending attestations is likely your specific hospital policy, and I would say is unusual. Granted that I do not know the laws in every state, but there is no real reason to have APPs if they can't bill. "I discussed this patient's care with NP X" is not an attestation, it's a co-sign. Your hospital likely requires a certain percentage of APP notes to be co-signed (which could be 100%), but it's in no way comparable to a resident note for a patient, where, for billing purposes, the attending must document that they personally saw and assessed the patient. The simple distinction is the NP has an independent state license awarded by the medical board; the resident (generally) does not.

And you may work with a lot of midlevels fresh out of school, but how many unmatched MDs do you work with? We're not comparing NPs to interns, we're comparing them to people whose med school performance has led them to both fail to match and fail to SOAP, probably multiple times. Average NP salary in Florida is over $100K; do you honestly think any for-profit hospital is going to offer unmatched MDs with no work experience more than that?

But I agree we can see what happens, rather than speculate.
Nope, that is not accurate. While some insurance plans allow for NPs to bill independently, most require NPs to bill for services as if the physician had provided them, hence cosigned/attested notes. That is why they are called physician extenders. They are working under the physician's license, they are not independent. What you are describing happens in only a few states.

We're not comparing NPs to interns, we're comparing them to people whose med school performance has led them to both fail to match and fail to SOAP, probably multiple times.
True. But a lot of these NP degrees are online. I would take an unmatched MD/DO over that. And if we look at if from the business side, if we were to compare, if you advertise an MD taking care of you, it would probably look more appealing to patients. But this is all hypothetical. It is just my opinion that someone who has passed step and gone through medical school should be compensated better than someone that didn't. Time will tell.
 
Anything that is a form of competition to midlevels by [unmatched] MD/DOs is a move in the right direction. Unmatched MD/DOs would essentially be ‘trained’ in the same way midlevels are (the same midlevels that then go to claim they are ready to be out there independent and unsupervised). This would drive down midlevel demand and replace with malleable and competent MD/DOs, over the indoctrinated NP/PA’s with chips on their shoulders, and drive down their salary and political power.

Would love to hear concurring or differing opinions from the group.
 
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Anything that is a form of competition to midlevels by [unmatched] MD/DOs is a move in the right direction. Unmatched MD/DOs would essentially be ‘trained’ in the same way midlevels are (the same midlevels that then go to claim they are ready to be out there independent and unsupervised). This would drive down midlevel demand and replace with malleable and competent MD/DOs, over the indoctrinated NP/PA’s with chips on their shoulders, and drive down their salary and political power.

Would love to hear concurring or differing opinions from the group.
Didn't think of that, but love the idea.

-Edited, took out my 2 cents on a couple things. Trying to keep it respectful.
 
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Anything that is a form of competition to midlevels by [unmatched] MD/DOs is a move in the right direction. Unmatched MD/DOs would essentially be ‘trained’ in the same way midlevels are (the same midlevels that then go to claim they are ready to be out there independent and unsupervised). This would drive down midlevel demand and replace with malleable and competent MD/DOs, over the indoctrinated NP/PA’s with chips on their shoulders, and drive down their salary and political power.

Would love to hear concurring or differing opinions from the group.

I question how good of a physician a med student who can't match/SOAP into any specialty would be. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I suspect most of these folks are ones who shouldn't ever see a patient independently. This may be a case where our profession is doing what a profession is supposed to do--self regulate and maintain quality.

Clearly the NP profession doesn't do that. There are plenty of good NPs. But even more inadequately trained ones. However our capitalist system sees a role for them. So we need to prove that MD/DO's are the better/smarter option, and deserve the higher reimbursement.

Unfortunately we've seen nurses know how to organize far better than we do. So we're probably doomed...

Any MD/DO that actually cares should join the AMA. Despite its issues, it's the only national lobbying/representative group we have as physicians.
 
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A similar bill has already passed in Tennessee but this is interesting as it will allow US MDs/DOs who have passed boards but did not match the ability to practice under a restricted license. Looks like it will pass in the next month or so


Where is the Florida medical association in all of this? They should be crying foul at the opening of an unlimited pile of foreign docs into the US.
 
I question how good of a physician a med student who can't match/SOAP into any specialty would be. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I suspect most of these folks are ones who shouldn't ever see a patient independently. This may be a case where our profession is doing what a profession is supposed to do--self regulate and maintain quality.

Clearly the NP profession doesn't do that. There are plenty of good NPs. But even more inadequately trained ones. However our capitalist system sees a role for them. So we need to prove that MD/DO's are the better/smarter option, and deserve the higher reimbursement.

Unfortunately we've seen nurses know how to organize far better than we do. So we're probably doomed...

Any MD/DO that actually cares should join the AMA. Despite its issues, it's the only national lobbying/representative group we have as physicians.

We’ve ‘self regulated’ and ‘quality controlled’ ourselves into oblivion

These ‘unmatched’ MD/DO would actually be practicing with a restricted license unlike the newly minted ‘never did a day of bedside RN work went directly into online mill NP school and had then her friends uncles’ son’s father in law sign off on the 500 hrs of clinical rotations’ Doctors of Nursing Practice model that we have now….
 
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We’ve ‘self regulated’ and ‘quality controlled’ ourselves into oblivion

These ‘unmatched’ MD/DO would actually be practicing with a restricted license unlike the newly minted ‘never did a day of bedside RN work went directly into online mill NP school and had then her friends uncles’ son’s father in law sign off on the 500 hrs of clinical rotations’ Doctors of Nursing Practice model that we have now….

I disagree. High standards are what is needed to maintain trust and faith in our profession.

NP's are going the opposite route and choosing quantity over quality.
 
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Where is the Florida medical association in all of this? They should be crying foul at the opening of an unlimited pile of foreign docs into the US.
It is worth remembering that Florida, like Tennessee, is not doing this from a position of strength. The state is one of ten that has not expanded Medicaid, so it's getting squeezed on that end. Its population is growing largely through retirees who need a lot of healthcare services, so it's getting squeezed on that end, too. And as noted above, Florida is fairly litigious, so it's not an inherently attractive place to practice. I'm sure the 6-week abortion ban isn't exactly helping.

By 2035 the FMA is predicting a shortage of almost 18,000 physicians in the state. It will be interesting to watch them attempt to plug that hole.
 
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The state of Florida will eventually land near the bottom of the pile among states with the lowest quality healthcare / poorest outcomes.
 
I think it’s broken into two parts

So foreign doctors would be able to practice unrestricted after two years

While unmatched US grads would always have a limited license of sorts

It’s also interesting because unlike Tennessee there is no mention that this has to be at a hospital with residencies. In other words, private practices would likely take advantage of this as well


Kind of scary how oblivious the lawmakers sponsoring the bill are to the current pathway. This is from the hearing session

During questioning, a focus was placed on the proposed elimination of residency requirements for foreign-trained physicians. Committee members, including Rep. Kelly Skidmore, raised concerns about forgoing traditional U.S. residency and sought more information on the outcomes of similar policies in other states in evaluating the impact on patient care and physician performance.

“It’s not a concern I have in my experience,” said Grant, citing his personal physician who is originally from India.

In response, Skidmore clarified, stating that her concern lies with the removal of the residency requirement for foreign-trained physicians at large.

“Certainly I agree. My concern is just the residency piece,” she said. “Your physician did have a residency because that is the law. That’s where I have a bit of heartburn and would love to know if there are any statistics about adverse outcomes from this.”
I mean, won't immigration be a significant barrier? Unless congress passes an immigration law, it doesn't seem like there'll be enough foreign doctors to make a meaningful dent.
 
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Where is the Florida medical association in all of this? They should be crying foul at the opening of an unlimited pile of foreign docs into the US.
I bet many are older practice owners who are complicit because they know it will mean cheap labor and higher profits
 
By 2035 the FMA is predicting a shortage of almost 18,000 physicians in the state. It will be interesting to watch them attempt to plug that hole
Isn’t this what happened in EM though? Project a shortage, massively over expand and in doing so destroy the job market

The state of Florida will eventually land near the bottom of the pile among states with the lowest quality healthcare / poorest outcomes.
Most states are doing this in some form and I bet within 10 years it will be rare that a state does not have it
 
I mean, won't immigration be a significant barrier? Unless congress passes an immigration law, it doesn't seem like there'll be enough foreign doctors to make a meaningful dent.
There is no cap on visas for non profits which pretty much all hospitals are. HCA probably also gets around it because they can say they’re a teaching hospital due to residencies.
 
Isn’t this what happened in EM though? Project a shortage, massively over expand and in doing so destroy the job market


Most states are doing this in some form and I bet within 10 years it will be rare that a state does not have it

The EM physician glut has more to do with corporate medicine deciding that EM physicians are interchangeable with mid levels than with overexpansion of physicians in the role.
 
Isn’t this what happened in EM though? Project a shortage, massively over expand and in doing so destroy the job market
Alternative explanation: Florida does have a shortage, the shortage will get worse, and the problem isn't going to magically solve itself.

As noted above, EM's problems are multifactorial, and a shining example of what PE firms do when they get involved in healthcare.
 
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There is no cap on visas for non profits which pretty much all hospitals are. HCA probably also gets around it because they can say they’re a teaching hospital due to residencies.
Haven't brushed up on immigration in a while, but don't you still need to "prove" there's a need you can't fill with a US citizen? It seems at best the only places that will be flooded are "undesirable" locations, assuming HCAs can even be considered non-profits.
 
Haven't brushed up on immigration in a while, but don't you still need to "prove" there's a need you can't fill with a US citizen? It seems at best the only places that will be flooded are "undesirable" locations, assuming HCAs can even be considered non-profits.
I think that the shortage data would be enough to warrant filling them. Even urban areas can technically say there is a shortage
 
The EM physician glut has more to do with corporate medicine deciding that EM physicians are interchangeable with mid levels than with overexpansion of physicians in the role.

In many cases, they are. The problem with ER visits is that the majority of these don't need the skill of an MD to manage. They just need a mid-level. People who need a few stitches, who need a med refill, who need basic antibiotics. Essentially, people who probably could have everything they need managed in the urgent care rather than ER setting - a problem the bill is also designed to try to address (though it won't).

I would argue that ER overcrowding could have been solved by figuring out how to get people to appropriately use the ER and to use their primary care or urgent care clinic for non-emergent issues. It's a hard problem because it's hard to change behavior on a large scale. Instead, we expanded ER staffing which included both docs and mid-levels and now there's this perceived "glut." That creates a problem because now even if you cut down on the number of inappropriate ER visits, you're still going to have more ER docs than we need to take care of the real emergent issues.
 
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In many cases, they are. The problem with ER visits is that the majority of these don't need the skill of an MD to manage. They just need a mid-level. People who need a few stitches, who need a med refill, who need basic antibiotics. Essentially, people who probably could have everything they need managed in the urgent care rather than ER setting - a problem the bill is also designed to try to address (though it won't).

I would argue that ER overcrowding could have been solved by figuring out how to get people to appropriately use the ER and to use their primary care or urgent care clinic for non-emergent issues. It's a hard problem because it's hard to change behavior on a large scale. Instead, we expanded ER staffing which included both docs and mid-levels and now there's this perceived "glut." That creates a problem because now even if you cut down on the number of inappropriate ER visits, you're still going to have more ER docs than we need to take care of the real emergent issues.

We must be seeing different mid levels. Supervised midlevels can be a great boon to certain specialties. But what I have seen is private equity deciding that a busy ED can be staffed overnight by a single physician and a team of midlevels with minimal oversight ability by the single doc. Due to the rapid increase in online only midlevel degree programs, and the mistaken advancement of full practice authority or minimal supervision requirements in many states, there is a surfeit of inexperienced midlevels (general NPs more so than PAs) who can be paid less but bill similarly as physicians, and private equity has made the decision to replace physicians due to profit considerations, not patient care considerations. I have personally seen too many late diagnosed disasters due to inappropriate midlevel training and oversight, not to mention inappropriate referrals and lab/imaging orders. I know I’m not the only one who sees these low quality referrals from the mid levels, and over ordering of tests they can’t interpret, as there is data and studies showing this.

We will never cut down on non-emergency ED visits until we find a way to get more people access to good primary care with a focus on continuity and early intervention.

And I personally tell my friends and family not to go to urgent cares, as most will be seen by an unsupervised midlevel, and the care provided is usually a shotgun approach and wrong, resulting in over prescription at best and under diagnosis at worst. I rarely see appropriate care provided in those settings. So I tell people that either it can wait to see their PCP (and to ensure the PCP is a physician and not a midlevel practicing independently or with minimal oversight) or they need to go to an ED. While I understand the goal of an urgent care, I don’t think the vast majority succeed in providing quality care, and I do not want my patients or loved ones seen in that setting.
 
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We’ve ‘self regulated’ and ‘quality controlled’ ourselves into oblivion

These ‘unmatched’ MD/DO would actually be practicing with a restricted license unlike the newly minted ‘never did a day of bedside RN work went directly into online mill NP school and had then her friends uncles’ son’s father in law sign off on the 500 hrs of clinical rotations’ Doctors of Nursing Practice model that we have now….
The fact of the matter is that most physicians are not free thinker. They buy into whatever academia feed them.

It's amazing that a lot med students or physicians think 11+ years is necessary to become a doctor.
 
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We must be seeing different mid levels. Supervised midlevels can be a great boon to certain specialties. But what I have seen is private equity deciding that a busy ED can be staffed overnight by a single physician and a team of midlevels with minimal oversight ability by the single doc. Due to the rapid increase in online only midlevel degree programs, and the mistaken advancement of full practice authority or minimal supervision requirements in many states, there is a surfeit of inexperienced midlevels (general NPs more so than PAs) who can be paid less but bill similarly as physicians, and private equity has made the decision to replace physicians due to profit considerations, not patient care considerations. I have personally seen too many late diagnosed disasters due to inappropriate midlevel training and oversight, not to mention inappropriate referrals and lab/imaging orders. I know I’m not the only one who sees these low quality referrals from the mid levels, and over ordering of tests they can’t interpret, as there is data and studies showing this.

We will never cut down on non-emergency ED visits until we find a way to get more people access to good primary care with a focus on continuity and early intervention.

And I personally tell my friends and family not to go to urgent cares, as most will be seen by an unsupervised midlevel, and the care provided is usually a shotgun approach and wrong, resulting in over prescription at best and under diagnosis at worst. I rarely see appropriate care provided in those settings. So I tell people that either it can wait to see their PCP (and to ensure the PCP is a physician and not a midlevel practicing independently or with minimal oversight) or they need to go to an ED. While I understand the goal of an urgent care, I think the vast majority succeed in providing quality care, I do not want my patients or loved ones seen in that setting.
Even that won't matter. Its very rare that I can't work in sick/acute visits within 24 hours AND we have an excellent PA to handle overflow. At the end of the day yesterday, she had 90 minutes of open appointment slots.

I still had 3 patients go to the ED for URI/flu symptoms yesterday.
 
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Even that won't matter. Its very rare that I can't work in sick/acute visits within 24 hours AND we have an excellent PA to handle overflow. At the end of the day yesterday, she had 90 minutes of open appointment slots.

I still had 3 patients go to the ED for URI/flu symptoms yesterday.

Maybe I am an optimist, but in general I’m referencing the un- and underinsured. Yes there will always be people who head to the ED when they could make a trip to the PCP, and that is an education issue for sure.
 
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Maybe I am an optimist, but in general I’m referencing the un- and underinsured. Yes there will always be people who head to the ED when they could make a trip to the PCP, and that is an education issue for sure.
Some PCPs don’t have that many openings and if you feel ill and call the office you’ll be told to go to UC or the ER. That’s if you’re lucky enough to get a call back within 2-3 days
 
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Some PCPs don’t have that many openings and if you feel ill and call the office you’ll be told to go to UC or the ER. That’s if you’re lucky enough to get a call back within 2-3 days

True, which goes back to the original truism of “until we improve access to care.” A good amount of the issues have to do with the un- and underinsured, but certainly the concept of access to primary care includes being able to get sick visits, etc.
 
We must be seeing different mid levels. Supervised midlevels can be a great boon to certain specialties. But what I have seen is private equity deciding that a busy ED can be staffed overnight by a single physician and a team of midlevels with minimal oversight ability by the single doc. Due to the rapid increase in online only midlevel degree programs, and the mistaken advancement of full practice authority or minimal supervision requirements in many states, there is a surfeit of inexperienced midlevels (general NPs more so than PAs) who can be paid less but bill similarly as physicians, and private equity has made the decision to replace physicians due to profit considerations, not patient care considerations. I have personally seen too many late diagnosed disasters due to inappropriate midlevel training and oversight, not to mention inappropriate referrals and lab/imaging orders. I know I’m not the only one who sees these low quality referrals from the mid levels, and over ordering of tests they can’t interpret, as there is data and studies showing this.
You're talking past me here. Unless you really want to argue that people using the ED for med refills, for stitching up a simple lac, for a place to sleep while inebriated require the expertise of a residency +/- fellowship trained physician to handle. You're citing examples of midlevels missing things which is a concern in patients with appropriate ED problems. But if you get rid of all the inappropriate ED visits, you decrease the ratio of real things to bull**** that comes in and that helps separate the signal from the noise. Note I'm not saying that even after you do this, you won't need more ED physicians. You likely will. But the remaining med refills, lac repairs, etc. can be fully handled by midlevels because they do not require a full diagnostic workup where something serious can be missed.

And I personally tell my friends and family not to go to urgent cares, as most will be seen by an unsupervised midlevel, and the care provided is usually a shotgun approach and wrong, resulting in over prescription at best and under diagnosis at worst. I rarely see appropriate care provided in those settings. So I tell people that either it can wait to see their PCP (and to ensure the PCP is a physician and not a midlevel practicing independently or with minimal oversight) or they need to go to an ED. While I understand the goal of an urgent care, I don’t think the vast majority succeed in providing quality care, and I do not want my patients or loved ones seen in that setting.
Based on your own argument, EDs are also overstaffed by midlevels. So you're telling them to go somewhere you know where they will likely be seen by an NP or PA?
 
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Based on your own argument, EDs are also overstaffed by midlevels. So you're telling them to go somewhere you know where they will likely be seen by an NP or PA?

Please note I said poorly or unsupervised midlevels. I don’t see midlevels in these kind of primary care settings either, and recommend to patients and family to only be seen somewhere they have the option to see a physician. If a primary care office doesn’t at least have the option, or if the primary care midlevels are independent, I do not seek care in that office.

And I still think you are very much underestimating the complexity of care delivered in the ED and the difficulty of having poorly supervised midlevels who don’t have the depth of expertise to discern between uncomplicated and complex presentations. And the wounds I have seen that have been inappropriately sutured by midlevels? Yeah no thanks there either.

I accept you have a different perspective. We must work in very different environments.
 
And I still think you are very much underestimating the complexity of care delivered in the ED and the difficulty of having poorly supervised midlevels who don’t have the depth of expertise to discern between uncomplicated and complex presentations. And the wounds I have seen that have been inappropriately sutured by midlevels? Yeah no thanks there either.
In the ED at my hospital, and I imagine many of those throughout the country, there is a physician who performs an initial triage. That person prevents someone with an acute MI from waiting 4 hours in the waiting area. They determine if the patient goes to the main ED or to a faster track area that is more primarily staffed by independent mid-levels. I imagine that person would be able to discern a nasty lac requiring more extensive repair and something simple. That or ED training needs to do better.
 
In the ED at my hospital, and I imagine many of those throughout the country, there is a physician who performs an initial triage. That person prevents someone with an acute MI from waiting 4 hours in the waiting area. They determine if the patient goes to the main ED or to a faster track area that is more primarily staffed by independent mid-levels. I imagine that person would be able to discern a nasty lac requiring more extensive repair and something simple. That or ED training needs to do better.

Haven’t seen an ED doc do triage, this is usually handled by an RN where I have worked, which is many places as I’ve been doing locums full time for around 18 months. Interesting setup to have a physician doing triage.

Cheers.
 
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In the ED at my hospital, and I imagine many of those throughout the country, there is a physician who performs an initial triage. That person prevents someone with an acute MI from waiting 4 hours in the waiting area. They determine if the patient goes to the main ED or to a faster track area that is more primarily staffed by independent mid-levels. I imagine that person would be able to discern a nasty lac requiring more extensive repair and something simple. That or ED training needs to do better.

I've only seen nurses doing initial ER triage as well. Having an extra doc get paid just to triage and not work up patients seems like a luxury a lot of places can't afford.
 
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This has the potential to dramatically alter physician supply and demand. Since there is no specialty restriction we could see foreign docs in all specialties (including some of the higher paying specialties like derm and optho) coming to the US for a big pay bump.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong about this. But even if PE firms convince the government they are non-profit, proving there are no Americans willing to fill the position and there won't be an impact on wages is a tall task. And even if they can overcome that, once the supposed need is filled they can't flood the market with more physicians. And the foreign docs they do hire will be stuck with them because there's a cap on how many of them can turn their visas into GC/citizenship. Though I may be biased because I grew up with African and Asian immigrants in healthcare, and this type of immigration processes was difficult AF. Again, I may be missing something but it seems the most that can happen is underserved areas getting flooded with foreign doctors.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong about this. But even if PE firms convince the government they are non-profit, proving there are no Americans willing to fill the position and there won't be an impact on wages is a tall task. And even if they can overcome that, once the supposed need is filled they can't flood the market with more physicians. And the foreign docs they do hire will be stuck with them because there's a cap on how many of them can turn their visas into GC/citizenship. Though I may be biased because I grew up with African and Asian immigrants in healthcare, and this type of immigration processes was difficult AF. Again, I may be missing something but it seems the most that can happen is underserved areas getting flooded with foreign doctors.
Maybe I'm being pessimistic but I envision a scenario where these companies cite the projected "physician shortage" as justification for flooding the market. I feel like the impact on wages will be difficult to prove until it is too late. They can point to current wages holding steady until there is an oversaturation.
 
Maybe I'm being pessimistic but I envision a scenario where these companies cite the projected "physician shortage" as justification for flooding the market. I feel like the impact on wages will be difficult to prove until it is too late. They can point to current wages holding steady until there is an oversaturation.
This is exactly what they will do.

Lowering salaries is a feature of these bills rather than a bug
 
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