Doctors of Anatomic Pathology

[Tissue issue]

Rosalind Franklin University is going to start offering a new degree for PA's.

http://pathologyblawg.com/pathology...-will-soon-called-doctors-anatomic-pathology/

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[mlw03]

Like the blogger, I'll reserve judgement until more is known. If this is just meant to enhance the training and knowledge of PAs, I guess that could be OK. I wonder if we'll ever see the day when PAs function independent of pathologists. So a specimen would go to a PA-group, who would do the grossing for a fee, then off to the histo lab for cutting, and finally onto a pathology group for slide review. It doesn't strike me as that far-fetched, and I wonder if a "doctor" of AP would run something like that.

 

[Rete]

Living in Chicago, I have known 3-4 RF PAs and to be honest, they could have used an extra year based on how good (or not) their grossing was. I think most PA programs are small and RF trains like 5x what most other schools do, maybe they should work on training competent PAs before working on PADs.

 

[icpshootyz]

Other allied healthcare fields have done this as well with little/no effect on salaries or knowledge. PT/OT programs, pharmacy schools both allow people to get "Doctorate" degrees which don't require extra training or testing or anything, and they don't get paid better than those that have normal degrees in those fields. I can't imagine what a doctorate degree would add to being a PA other than a title. No one's going to call them doctor any more than you call a physical therapist or pharmacist doctor.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

40 PAs trained a year sounds like a lot to me. The programs I have seen dont train near that many. That place sounds like a diploma mill. The market doesnt need that many PAs produced each year. It's not like there are a bunch of AP labs starting up. Most are consolidating or closing down. A few in-office labs hire PAs though I have noticed. Maybe that is where the growth has been?

If I were a PA, I wouldnt care if it was a 2 year Associates degree out of a high school as long as the market wasnt flooded and the number of schools kept low. The market dictates your pay, not your job title. I'd rather be called employed than out of work Doctor of Anatomic Pathology.

 

[2121115]

LOL at this. Really.

 

[deleted314957]

Rosy Franklin (formerly Chicago Medical College) has never had much of a reputation. Kinda a diploma mill. Back in 1972 when I applied for medical school I applied to all the Illinois schools. Rosy Franklin said essentially, "send us a check for $25000 and you are in". Thankfully i did not have to do that and I got some love from the U of I Chicago.

 

[LSU-Tech]

Rosalind Franklin is not a diploma mill. As long as the school is NAACLS accredited and their graduates are setting in for the ASCP and passing it, you have no right to call RFU a diploma mill.

 

[Giemsa]

Almost every pathology residency goes unfilled, and the problem is even worse in Canada. From what I understand, not one student pursued a Pathology residency in that entire country last year.

You understand incorrectly.

In the last match, these were the numbers for the first round, Canadian medical school grads:

AP 38 applicants, 17 listed path as first choice
Lab medicine, 24 applicants, 6 listed as first choice, 1 listed as second choice

In the first round, for Canadian med school grad positions, AP / lab medicine filled 64% of their quota (28 CMGs matched to 44 spots). After the second round (which includes IMGs), 93% of AP / lab med spots were filled.

 

[Substance]

You understand incorrectly.

In the last match, these were the numbers for the first round, Canadian medical school grads:

AP 38 applicants, 17 listed path as first choice
Lab medicine, 24 applicants, 6 listed as first choice, 1 listed as second choice

In the first round, for Canadian med school grad positions, AP / lab medicine filled 64% of their quota (28 CMGs matched to 44 spots). After the second round (which includes IMGs), 93% of AP / lab med spots were filled.

Lets be honest giemsa. 23 first choice path applicants around the country vs the far greater number of available spots is by no means a success story for pathology. Nor is filling up in the second round with a boat load of imgs. Path is notorious for being the IMg dump. That's not something to be proud of. Overall I am extremely concerned about the state of the field of pathology in Canada given the myriad cases of incompetence and worry that the recruitment problem is the very source of this.

 

[KCShaw]

Sounds like a cheap way to increase interest in the program and rationalize extending it by a year to have more students around paying tuition. Not sure that it meets any sort of need, and no-one will know what it means anytime soon. Seems to be a sort of common trend to slap on a "doctorate" option, not necessarily confined to medicine and its tag-ons. Educational institutions are still businesses at their core.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Sounds like a cheap way to increase interest in the program and rationalize extending it by a year to have more students around paying tuition. Not sure that it meets any sort of need, and no-one will know what it means anytime soon. Seems to be a sort of common trend to slap on a "doctorate" option, not necessarily confined to medicine and its tag-ons. Educational institutions are still businesses at their core.

Exactly. Keep the students paying tuition for as long as possible. It's a huge con. We really need to be able to get people back into the work force quickly and the institutions are making it tough. Careers come and go. They die off and/or the market gets saturated. I feel bad for someone in their 50s trying to reinvent themselves in a new career nowadays. No wonder many are taking early retirement by getting disability.

If that school keeps pumping out classes of 40 PAs, it wont matter if you are a Doctorate or not. You will be unemployed or making 50 grand a year for that overpriced degree.

 

[KluverB]

And what's wrong with IMGs, again? They probably have better qualifications anyway.

 

[icpshootyz]

And what's wrong with IMGs, again? They probably have better qualifications anyway.

I know. Sure, there's some that aren't that great. But then I realize that these people often do two residencies to be physicians here in the US. Many of the IMG's I've worked with in path have been incredibly motivated and smart. And there's certainly plenty of American docs that aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. Each person should be judged on their own merit.

 

[Sheldon]

[QUOTE=icpshootyz;14408490]Other allied healthcare fields have done this as well with little/no effect on salaries or knowledge. PT/OT programs, pharmacy schools both allow people to get "Doctorate" degrees which don't require extra training or testing or anything, and they don't get paid better than those that have normal degrees in those fields. I can't imagine what a doctorate degree would add to being a PA other than a title. No one's going to call them doctor any more than you call a physical therapist or pharmacist doctor.[/QUOTE]

Actually, as a PT, I disagree with the bolded. Today's PT, DPTs certainly have both extra training and knowledge than our counter-parts with either MsPTS and BsPTs. The argument that those with MsPTs and BsPTs have more experience is true, but experience does not always equate to knowing more or performing better clinically. I know plenty of PTs who still e-stim, hot pack, and think Williams flexion exercises are the key but the evidence tells us otherwise. However, just because I have a DPT, I certainly do not call myself a "doctor" nor expect to be referred to as such. I'll leave the "doctor" title up to the real physicians...and PhDs.

 

[Scania]

Oh please, Rosalind Franklin is not a diploma mill. That is the most absurd BS I think I have ever heard. Yes, the school may be producing too many PAs. Nobody is going to dispute that. However, as long as the school is NAACLS accredited and their graduates are setting in for the ASCP and passing it, you have no right to call RFU a diploma mill. Go strut your "U-of-I Chicago" feathers elsewhere peacock.

To the rest of you who want to point fingers, and ask yourselves, "how did it come to this?" :

Look toward the newest generation of medical students. Graduates are no longer pursuing pathology residencies. Many of them loathe their pathology rotations. The field just isn't sexy, and entails almost zero patient contact. You can't blame the PAs for wanting to expand their education and capitalize on an opportunity that nobody else seems to want. Almost every pathology residency goes unfilled, and the problem is even worse in Canada. From what I understand, not one student pursued a Pathology residency in that entire country last year. If there is a need that has to met, and the PAs are willing to expand their education in order to help the pathologists (aka- all of you), what's the problem? Is there a monopoly on knowledge that I am unaware of? Physicians (MD/DO) have something called professional authority. No one can take that away from you, so the doctorate programs that are being created do not/will not strip you of your autonomy. It sounds like the PAs are just trying to keep up with the trend that the other allied health professions are following

Besides, most Pathologists are focusing more on the molecular aspects of disease, so I really don't think you have anything to worry about for at least another decade or two. That said, if you delve too deep into molecular medicine, you'll soon find yourselves in a losing battle with PhDs who are probably more knowledgeable in that department. When that happens, your field will be obsolete (as you know it). In my opinion, I'd feel more threatened by PhDs (long term) than PAs pursuing doctorates in education and healthcare administration. Based on what I read, this degree sounds more like a PA+MBA=DAP scenario, nothing more....nothing less. The people in the gross room do not interact with patients, nor do I foresee a potential DAP telling the person that works two feet away from them to call them Dr. [insert name], and even if they did, how would that really affect your life? I know several DPTs and PharmDs and none of them expect me to call them "Dr." Every allied health profession is doing this. Accept it....move on. It's not even worth losing sleep over.

If you all want to change this, convince more medical students to pursue Pathology. If you don't, your field will soon belong to the PAs and PhDs who are more than willing to learn more about what you do. When that happens, blame yourselves and the next generation of medical students, not the people who are willing to step up and help.

Spoken like someone who has absolutely no idea what a pathologist does.

 

[Overhauser]

Almost every pathology residency goes unfilled, and the problem is even worse in Canada.

Only 15 of the 152 programs went unfilled this year. http://b83c73bcf0e7ca356c80-e8560f4...ontent/uploads/2013/08/resultsanddata2013.pdf

 

[thebouque]

Almost every pathology residency goes unfilled, and the problem is even worse in Canada. From what I understand, not one student pursued a Pathology residency in that entire country last year. .

You mean during the 2012 or the 2013 match? Maybe not one student pursued a path residency except for me and the 2 other canadian medical graduates in my program in 2012 or the 4 canadian med grads who got accepted in my program in 2013... I don't know about the other schools, but I think the situation is similar