Doctors Quitting

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And that is one of the reasons why I don't plan on staying in the US too long after residency. Bye, Bye greedy ass lawyers and insurance companies trying to dictate what you can and can't do. Screw it. This business ain't what it used to be.
 
Who cares? They're only in it for the money anyway. Good riddance.
 
The Ob/Gyn quitting due to her $125,000/year malpractice in Florida and stagnant reimbursements for 15 years is totally not greed, IMHO. The situation in Florida and some other places for people like ObGyn and general surgery is totally ridiculous. And it is very sad and a waste of skills to have people like that bailing out at such a young age. This lady is only 55 and should have had a good 10 years of practice left in her, at least.

The dermatologist quitting due to $2500/year malpractice insurance is pretty silly, though. I'm betting she makes at least 200k and that amount is chump change. Malpractice insurance is necessary in many other professions that don't make as much money as we do in medicine. However, I do think that the entire malpractice/tort system needs reform, and that certain places (Florida, East St.Louis Illinois, etc.) are in serious trouble in terms of the malpractice situation.
 
The Ob/Gyn quitting due to her $125,000/year malpractice in Florida and stagnant reimbursements for 15 years is totally not greed, IMHO. The situation in Florida and some other places for people like ObGyn and general surgery is totally ridiculous. And it is very sad and a waste of skills to have people like that bailing out at such a young age. This lady is only 55 and should have had a good 10 years of practice left in her, at least.

I think the CNN story was part sensationalism in a way as most doctors can find jobs, but also true that some areas and types of practices are hard hit. There was a story a while back a family practice or internist who had to close her practice, I think in L.A. or Beverly Hills.

Same thing with Ob/Gyn as she was running her own practice and the business part didn't work. There are a lot of Ob/Gyns who work for a hospital or in a group practice and get deals in malpractice, so I think it is more a fact that she struggled with the business aspect of her practice and gave up for that.

She *could* if she was willing to relocate to another part of her city, state or the country, find employment as an Ob/Gyn. So I think that while she regrets leaving medicine she did have other options but decided to go into the jewlery business.

PLUS, there are a lot of volunteer positions like with MSF, where I am sure they could use an Ob/Gyn, so I would have to argue that it was more of a "I want to have my practice the way I want it, and if I can't then I want to do something else" type of a decision.

Just because you are an M.D. doesn't mean you can hang out a shingle and make a profitable business. The story gives the wrong impression that doctors are forced out of practicing, I don't think this is accurate.

Who knows what was going on in her personal life, she might have wanted to spend time with family or something like that. Her story sounds more like sour grapes than a person who is committed to serving humanity but can't.
 
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I think the CNN story was part sensationalism in a way as most doctors can find jobs, but also true that some areas and types of practices are hard hit. There was a story a while back a family practice or internist who had to close her practice, I think in L.A. or Beverly Hills.

Same thing with Ob/Gyn as she was running her own practice and the business part didn't work. There are a lot of Ob/Gyns who work for a hospital or in a group practice and get deals in malpractice, so I think it is more a fact that she struggled with the business aspect of her practice and gave up for that.

She *could* if she was willing to relocate to another part of her city, state or the country, find employment as an Ob/Gyn. So I think that while she regrets leaving medicine she did have other options but decided to go into the jewlery business.

PLUS, there are a lot of volunteer positions like with MSF, where I am sure they could use an Ob/Gyn, so I would have to argue that it was more than a business decision.

Just because you are an M.D. doesn't mean you can hang out a shingle and make a profitable business. The story gives the wrong impression that doctors are forced out of practicing, I don't think this is accurate.

Who knows what was going on in her personal life, she might have wanted to spend time with family or something like that. Her story sounds more like sour grapes than a person who is committed to serving humanity but can't.

While all of your points are true and well-founded, I think the point was that physicians are no longer able to have the practice they want in the environment/location they want because of outside forces acting on our profession. Should physicians be able to have their cake and eat it too (as they have in the past)? That is a matter for debate, but it is a growing concern for those who came into medicine assuming they would have the complete autonomy granted to physicians a generation ago, as they are finding that more than just reimbursement is changing.
 
While all of your points are true and well-founded, I think the point was that physicians are no longer able to have the practice they want in the environment/location they want because of outside forces acting on our profession. Should physicians be able to have their cake and eat it too (as they have in the past)? That is a matter for debate, but it is a growing concern for those who came into medicine assuming they would have the complete autonomy granted to physicians a generation ago, as they are finding that more than just reimbursement is changing.

The CNN article was sensationalistic in that it would give the impression that to say a junior high school student reading this might think "Wow, you can't find work as an Obstetrician", when in reality there are a lot of jobs for Obs and most every type of doctor. In this way either the Ob/Gyn/reporter appears to be dishonest and manipulative in the assessment of the situation for the shock value or to try to get ob/gyn malpractice rate cut. (These rates may well be exorbitant, but this article paints a false picture of reality, and it is sour grapes IMHO).

The good old days of doctors weren't that great. A higher devotion to your patients might mean that you had to take ALL of the call yourself and residents worked much harder than today. Nowadays there a whole ton of doctors who are very entitled, get to share call, or just work administrative type jobs, and complain constantly about reimbursement.

I would like to interview this Ob doc BEFORE she started med school:

Me: "So what would you do if you have trouble running your own solo private practice mid-career?"

Her: "I would work hard to find another job as an Obstetrician because I love delivering babies, and I would volunteer while I looked for a job at a medical school."

Me. "You wouldn't say start selling jewelery online and forsake medicine because of a set back like that?"

Her: "Oh, probably not, unless I was say in my mid-50s and I saved up enough to retire, then I might shut up my practice if I couldn't have all consuming power and control over my own business, you know, I would feel bad about it but at least you'll get maybe 20 years out of me. But heh, the jewelery business is important, it helps people by giving them shinny crap to look at and helps them feel gaudy. I love helping people."

Me: "But would you miss delivering babies?"

Her: "I guess, I dunno, I'll always have jewelery!"

Me: "Would you consider working for a group practice or a hospital?"


Her: "Again, when I save up enough to retire I'll make that decision, what is the point of being a doctor if you can't get everything you want?"

Me: "What about international volunteer work? Would you consider volunteering abroad as an Ob/Gyn after you saved up all this money?"

Her: "Well, I want autonomy and control over my life and my own practice, sort of like my own little country, I wouldn't want to go somewhere else to help poor people. Unless they paid me as much as a jewelery maker or more."

Me: "Have ever done anything to help educate other people, would you help teach medical students or residents?"


Her: "I want to run my own practice so that I can focus on what is important to me, being around a happy time in people's lives, medical students and residents should teach themselves. My practice is private and they wouldn't be allowed."

Blah, Blah, Blah. Although it hard to tell who slanted the article, the Ob/Gyn in it appears to give the very false impression that she *can't* find work as an Ob/Gyn, and that she still has a love for the profession, but can't make it financially and has to make jewelry.

They should offer a Jewelry 101 class in med school so that students know they have a back up in case they can afford to do medicine. (tongue in check)

There are so many crappy role models for med students as so many attendings really don't give a dam about helping society. I hope this ob/gyn never makes her way back into medicine and that she enjoys making jewelry for the rest of her life.

Alot of physicians a generation ago were *real* doctors who really went out of their way for their patients and really devoted their life to it. Do you think that you could work nonstop as a family practice doc in an underserved area for forty plus years?

Please, many of today's doctors are entitled money grubbing business people with no real dedication to their profession.
 
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Unreal what the responses to that article are....I swear that most people are total DB and have no clue....one poster stated "we pay for your medical education" so be happy with making what you do...WTF? medicare pays for residency but not medical school, *****.
 
Please, many of today's doctors are entitled money grubbing business people with no real dedication to their profession.

Wow.

There are real reasons why doctors now have less dedication to the profession than before. Cause it's become a CRAPPIER profession. As a doctor now you get:

1. way less respect than 20 years ago
2. way less autonomy
3. way more paperwork,
4 less real patient care
5. less pay in real terms
6. more lawsuits

Is it a wonder that young doctors are less willing to sacrifice for their profession? Is this a surprise to you? Our society has decided they value physicians less based on what happened in the last 20 years- they are getting exactly what they deserve.
 
Unreal what the responses to that article are....I swear that most people are total DB and have no clue....one poster stated "we pay for your medical education" so be happy with making what you do...WTF? medicare pays for residency but not medical school, *****.

The comments sections of news websites typically attracts the lowlifes and crazies.
 
Wow.

There are real reasons why doctors now have less dedication to the profession than before. Cause it's become a CRAPPIER profession. As a doctor now you get:

1. way less respect than 20 years ago
2. way less autonomy
3. way more paperwork,
4 less real patient care
5. less pay in real terms
6. more lawsuits

Is it a wonder that young doctors are less willing to sacrifice for their profession? Is this a surprise to you? Our society has decided they value physicians less based on what happened in the last 20 years- they are getting exactly what they deserve.

All I was saying is that the doctors gripe and complain too much and distort the medical profession into something that it was never meant to be. I honestly think that yes, just like you said, doctors are getting revenge for apparent "slights" such as lower pay and respect by:

1. Complaining about how bad things are and being histrionic and dramatic such as the ob/gyn in the article.

2. Taking out their anger on patients, medical students and residents by being mean and curt, and giving society "what they deserve" just like you said.

Medicine is a "Crappier" profession because the current cadre of attendings, private practice docs, and academic types want it to be a painful process for everybody involved.
 
Wow.

There are real reasons why doctors now have less dedication to the profession than before. Cause it's become a CRAPPIER profession. As a doctor now you get:

1. way less respect than 20 years ago
2. way less autonomy
3. way more paperwork,
4 less real patient care
5. less pay in real terms
6. more lawsuits

Is it a wonder that young doctors are less willing to sacrifice for their profession? Is this a surprise to you? Our society has decided they value physicians less based on what happened in the last 20 years- they are getting exactly what they deserve.

The profession is not crappier. The practices physicians are choosing are crappier.

I have seen docs go into solo private practice in numerous specialties. You will regain autonomy and if that still isn't enough, choosing to not take insurance provides that extra amount of freedom that reverses all six of those points. That is the only way to not be a victim of societies' devaluing.
 
The profession is not crappier. The practices physicians are choosing are crappier.

I have seen docs go into solo private practice in numerous specialties. You will regain autonomy and if that still isn't enough, choosing to not take insurance provides that extra amount of freedom that reverses all six of those points. That is the only way to not be a victim of societies' devaluing.

If you choose not to take insurance.. You wont have any patients.
 
All I was saying is that the doctors gripe and complain too much and distort the medical profession into something that it was never meant to be.

Medicine is a "Crappier" profession because the current cadre of attendings, private practice docs, and academic types want it to be a painful process for everybody involved.

So the current attendings and private practice docs WANT to be buried in mountains of paperwork, haggle with insurance companies endlessly over preauthorizations, watch reimbursements be cut year after year and end their careers in the courtroom defending themselves against a lawsuit?

Seriously, sometimes doctors ARE a little dramatic. No one is starving. But then again you don't starve if you work cleaning toilets either. It sounds like you are proposing we just take it up the a*s*s without so much as a word.

And no, you are wrong that it's crappier cause of the people in the profession- its crappier cause of red tape and change in societal outlooks. I've worked with doctors from other countries visiting our hospitals and clinics. They are astounded by the amount of crap (forms, extra documentation, preauths, multiple billing sheets) we wade through. Although, interestingly enough they think American doctors are getting rich like they did in the 70s and 80s.
 
There are so many crappy role models for med students as so many attendings really don't give a dam about helping society.

What does being a doctor have to do with helping society?
 
Tcan,
As physicians we serve society because we often need to put our patients' needs above our own (such as deferring food and sleep, and sometimes even time to urinate - sorry but it's true! - as well as time with our own friends and family to serve patients) and we provide critical and at times life saving services. Also, we serve people regardless of their ability to pay (i.e. we don't turn people away at the hospital doors because they don't have insurance or can't pay). At least that is how it is when you are a trainee...

As for Darth's comments about the ob/gyn being greedy and selfish...perhaps it is true that she could just volunteer, or move, but often when someone is 55, he/she is married with a spouse and kids, can't just pick up stakes and move from state to state looking for one with a better liability climate. And 125k in malpractice insurance is not chump change...it would likely not change that much unless she moved quite a distance from where she is living. Not everyone is cut out for Doctors Without Borders...maybe her health won't allow for that, or she doesn't do well working in 3rd world conditions (no shame in that, really) or she has teenaged kids at home that she can't just leave for months at a time.
 
Tcan,

As for Darth's comments about the ob/gyn being greedy and selfish...perhaps it is true that she could just volunteer, or move, but often when someone is 55, he/she is married with a spouse and kids, can't just pick up stakes and move from state to state looking for one with a better liability climate. And 125k in malpractice insurance is not chump change...it would likely not change that much unless she moved quite a distance from where she is living. Not everyone is cut out for Doctors Without Borders...maybe her health won't allow for that, or she doesn't do well working in 3rd world conditions (no shame in that, really) or she has teenaged kids at home that she can't just leave for months at a time.

While I agree that it may be a burden to relocate, many families had to relocate *dozens* of times during the great depression, and there are sure whole families out there who have to move looking for work.

However, she was portrayed as being very "angry" in the article, even using that word, and in her letter to her patients complained about reimbursements and recent financial problems that her practice was having.

However, she makes it seem like she wishes it were another way and feels "guilty" about wasting her skills. Indeed, perhaps practicing another ten or fifteen years would not be out of the question. Clearly though she *could* practice somewhere (I think she lives in central Florida and there must some opportunities somewhere doing something).

While I wouldn't berrate someone for taking early retirement, especially if they did good work as an ob/gyn, the impression she gave her patients and how the article portrayed it makes it seem like you can't practice as an ob/gyn.

If you brought in say the chairman/woman of ob/gyn at some big local university and offered her a job, where perhaps the institution picks up the malpractice tab, she probably wouldn't take it. Saying that she was too fed up with reimbursement problems.

However, her story is not that uncommon, there was a neurosurgeon I think who said that it didn't pay to operate anymore as he could make more money on the stock market. Well, it money is the only motivating factor I wonder how good his care could be? It may be the tip of the iceberg in that a lot of baby boomer doctors may decide to retire soon, or sooner, due to anger at lower reimbursements, not that they need the money that much, but because they are angry seeing lower paychecks??
 
While I agree that it may be a burden to relocate, many families had to relocate *dozens* of times during the great depression, and there are sure whole families out there who have to move looking for work.

However, she was portrayed as being very "angry" in the article, even using that word, and in her letter to her patients complained about reimbursements and recent financial problems that her practice was having.

However, she makes it seem like she wishes it were another way and feels "guilty" about wasting her skills. Indeed, perhaps practicing another ten or fifteen years would not be out of the question. Clearly though she *could* practice somewhere (I think she lives in central Florida and there must some opportunities somewhere doing something).

While I wouldn't berrate someone for taking early retirement, especially if they did good work as an ob/gyn, the impression she gave her patients and how the article portrayed it makes it seem like you can't practice as an ob/gyn.

If you brought in say the chairman/woman of ob/gyn at some big local university and offered her a job, where perhaps the institution picks up the malpractice tab, she probably wouldn't take it. Saying that she was too fed up with reimbursement problems.

However, her story is not that uncommon, there was a neurosurgeon I think who said that it didn't pay to operate anymore as he could make more money on the stock market. Well, it money is the only motivating factor I wonder how good his care could be? It may be the tip of the iceberg in that a lot of baby boomer doctors may decide to retire soon, or sooner, due to anger at lower reimbursements, not that they need the money that much, but because they are angry seeing lower paychecks??
well, when there is lower reimbursement for the same amount or even more complicated work , practioners probably feel a slap to their profession/hardwork/years of training ,not to mention the non-appreciation type of attitude from clients these days who may take the service as granted.
 
Tcan,
As physicians we serve society because we often need to put our patients' needs above our own (such as deferring food and sleep, and sometimes even time to urinate - sorry but it's true! - as well as time with our own friends and family to serve patients) and we provide critical and at times life saving services. Also, we serve people regardless of their ability to pay (i.e. we don't turn people away at the hospital doors because they don't have insurance or can't pay). At least that is how it is when you are a trainee...

As for Darth's comments about the ob/gyn being greedy and selfish...perhaps it is true that she could just volunteer, or move, but often when someone is 55, he/she is married with a spouse and kids, can't just pick up stakes and move from state to state looking for one with a better liability climate. And 125k in malpractice insurance is not chump change...it would likely not change that much unless she moved quite a distance from where she is living. Not everyone is cut out for Doctors Without Borders...maybe her health won't allow for that, or she doesn't do well working in 3rd world conditions (no shame in that, really) or she has teenaged kids at home that she can't just leave for months at a time.

or that someone is trapped in their job because they can't afford to pay their tail to go elsewhere
 
She might have been burned out any way. This way at least she could justify her reasons.
 
Tcan,
As physicians we serve society because we often need to put our patients' needs above our own (such as deferring food and sleep, and sometimes even time to urinate - sorry but it's true! - as well as time with our own friends and family to serve patients) and we provide critical and at times life saving services. Also, we serve people regardless of their ability to pay (i.e. we don't turn people away at the hospital doors because they don't have insurance or can't pay). At least that is how it is when you are a trainee...

That seems to me alot like the individual and the duty of being a quality physician. Im asking about society. And if you really are thinking about society in general and not an individual, why do you seek to put their needs over your own? Why is this woman obliged to work under these conditions, where she is being given nothing in return? What is the rule or the moral principal that states that it is her responsibility to put society's needs over her own? Is that really what you owe society after all the work in medical school and residencies etc?

I understand she may have had alternatives other than just quitting alltogether, but im examining the principal of her private practice in the state of Florida, which was her first choice of work and was obviously successful and filling a niche.
 
Ttan,
I am unclear about what you are asking and/or stating. I guess I don't understand you.

As far as "wanting" to put the needs of other people (or society in general) above our own, it's not necessarily that we docs WANT to do that so much as there are definitely occasions where it is just necessary to do so. For example, when I am taking cardiology call and it's 8pm and I've already been in the hospital since 6 or 6:30 a.m., and haven't eating anything for a long time, and I'm thinking of trying to go find food, but then I get another page from the ER about a patient with chest pain, I need to go down there and take care of the patient. The patient doesn't care that I'm tired and hungry...the patient's family doesn't care either...the ER doc doesn't care either...why should they? And that's fine I guess...I suck it up, go down there and take care of the patient the way I'd want my family member to be taken care of if he/she was sick. I chose this profession because I want to help people, and just like being a school teacher, nurse or some other occupations there are times when the other person's needs come before my own.

p.s. "Alot" is actually spelled "a lot". It's two words. I don't mean to be too much of an annoying English teacher, but it's one of those words or phrases that everyone spells wrong.
 
Oh yeah, and Medicinesux just made an excellent point about the "tail" malpractice coverage. That could definitely be a factor in an ob/gyn not being able to find a new job, or join a new practice, particularly since I know that Florida has crazy malpractice rates for things like ob/gyn and general surgery. You better explain what "tail" coverage is, though, Medicinesux...I'll bet a lot of people on here don't know.
 
Oh yeah, and Medicinesux just made an excellent point about the "tail" malpractice coverage. That could definitely be a factor in an ob/gyn not being able to find a new job, or join a new practice, particularly since I know that Florida has crazy malpractice rates for things like ob/gyn and general surgery. You better explain what "tail" coverage is, though, Medicinesux...I'll bet a lot of people on here don't know.

An OB in Florida would risk winding up homeless and living in a shelter eating Raman noodles if she leaves a practice without purchasing a tail (assuming it was not covered when she initially signed her contract). In 15 years (in OB, lawsuits can be filed in many states until the plaintiff turns 18!) the family may decide to turn around and sue you for umpteen million dollars saying you were somehow responsible for causing their beloved child's cerebral palsy. Basically, tail covers you for any claims that occurred during the time you were working at a group even though you no longer work there. This is why it is important when you sign a contract you try to get an occurrence based insurance policy over a claims based one since you will maintain coverage after leaving your practice to go to another. You can read more here- http://www.physiciansnews.com/business/404burke.html

FYI- tail can be very expensive.....running into the tens of thousands of dollars, especially in OB. I can't think of too many other professions out there where you have to pay to leave! As you can see, this is just another reason why many physicians can feel trapped in their jobs.
 
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Ttan,
I am unclear about what you are asking and/or stating. I guess I don't understand you.

As far as "wanting" to put the needs of other people (or society in general) above our own, it's not necessarily that we docs WANT to do that so much as there are definitely occasions where it is just necessary to do so. For example, when I am taking cardiology call and it's 8pm and I've already been in the hospital since 6 or 6:30 a.m., and haven't eating anything for a long time, and I'm thinking of trying to go find food, but then I get another page from the ER about a patient with chest pain, I need to go down there and take care of the patient. The patient doesn't care that I'm tired and hungry...the patient's family doesn't care either...the ER doc doesn't care either...why should they? And that's fine I guess...I suck it up, go down there and take care of the patient the way I'd want my family member to be taken care of if he/she was sick. I chose this profession because I want to help people, and just like being a school teacher, nurse or some other occupations there are times when the other person's needs come before my own.

p.s. "Alot" is actually spelled "a lot". It's two words. I don't mean to be too much of an annoying English teacher, but it's one of those words or phrases that everyone spells wrong.

Yes, I understand your side fully and I think that it represents the will of a physician to do his job well. Rock on with that.

But thats not the reason portrayed as to why this doctor in the article quit. To put it simply, she quit because she wasn't paid ****. And it wasn't low pay either. She was losing money to her profession! I'm asking about where you draw the line.

I may just be premed, but one thing I do know for a fact is that physicians work hard. They work really damn hard throughout their whole careers. But part of Darthneurology's reply was shunning this hardworking physician for quitting because she was making no money, saying that a real physician would be so devoted to hisher job that heshe would place being a doctor and serving society over making money. I don't like that at all. Not because I want to become a physician solely for the purpose of making money or becoming wealthy, but rather because this is a situation where money is not the root of evil, and when you are not making it in return for this hard and valuable work, some facet of the system that you are working in is reallocating it to somewhere else and you are being taken advantage of. Someone other than your own self has stolen and exploited your mind and your efforts, and most physicians have pretty ****ing valuable minds.
 
just another reason why many physicians can feel trapped in their jobs.

And thats exactly what happens when what you earn doesn't make its way to your door. You become a slave.
 
And thats exactly what happens when what you earn doesn't make its way to your door. You become a slave.

Just to stress the importance of this:
If you cannot afford to leave/do something else you leave yourself open to being taken advantage of.

Take out as few loans as you can. Do NOT go to the more expensive school because of prestige. Do NOT put off paying your loans and letting your principle grow if you can at all avoid it (its very hard I know). There is NO better bargaining chip than "f*ck you Im leaving" and if you have the financial freedom to say that it will pay much higher dividends than your harvard degree. Joe from Upstairs-medical school can negotiate a better salary than Mary from colombia if he can say "take your call and cover it yourself or pay me X" and all she can say is "man I really need this job my loans are killing me"
 
is to have lost my residency slot and have my career end in the us
 
Waste of taxpayer money


It's also a waste of taxpayer money when a physician opts out. "We are all paying out of our pockets to produce doctors," said Mosley.


That's because medical residency programs are mostly funded by Medicare......

Forgot to mention the $300k+ medical school tuition that we tax payers pay out of pocket for you guys.................oh wait
 
is to have lost my residency slot and have my career end in the us
I don't believe you for one lousy second. I simply cannot imagine how the feeling of having failed, facing the uncertainty of how to repay debt and make a living, knowing there are someone hating you enough to cough up allegations based on creative bull to get rid of you, and being unable to fight back due to lack of power and economy would make you feel more happy about yourself and life in general. Like your nick states, you are probably in a sorry state, no matter whether you have actually found a better spot in a more humane system abroad. You have lost out in a game, and that never feels good. The only rationalization that has any reality attached to it, is probably that getting f"¤#cked in residency could happen to anybody, even though it is more likely to happen to some. (I cannot think of a way to program someones behavior to escape the possibility of being f**ced over. Totally eliminating self-assertiveness won't guarantee you slack. E.g you could be put in a scapegoat situation by chance, some nurse or doctor could believe that you would be the source of trouble )
 
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