Doctors underpaid

[Avrelian]

Not great with verbal English are we?

Don't criticize a pediatrician before you walk a mile in his/her shoes. Pediatricians end up having to treat the kids and their parents.... As the father, your opinion is already viewed as biased because to you, if the kid even cries a little, you will feel that the pediatrician should be banned from medicine...

Finally, your posts have been weighed and measured and found lacking the capability of attaining a credible criticism without adding self-gratifying truthisms to it which leads me to think you sir are a troll..

Yes, kinda funny mistake But English is my fourth language, I got my excuses. Do you write better in your fourth language?
Well I dont think she should be banned from medicine, but at very least she could tell that it might hurt so we'd be prepared with pacifiers and stuff. And why didnt she looked at that ear, finally? If you will say that you are competent in this area and she did everything fine, then I will take your word for it and shut up.
And anyways there is freedom of mind , for now, so you are free to think whatever you want there is no limit.. Take care.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[tncekm]

You are lying. Pediatricians would love to be able to charge (and collect) 400 bucks for an office visit. If that were the case they'd be making millions. They will probably only see sixty dollars for the entire visit.

Oh, and babies cry when you stick needles in 'em. Just FYI.

No kiddin', right? haha...

He said $400 for 15 mins? Lets do the math on that one!

$400/patient * 1 patient / 15 mins * 60 min / hr * 8 hr/ day * 5 day / wk * 52 wk / yr (yes I'm being conservative with the hours) = the minute amount of $3,328,000 per year.

 

[beetlerum]

Yes, kinda funny mistake But English is my fourth language, I got my excuses. Do you write better in your fourth language?
Well I dont think she should be banned from medicine, but at very least she could tell that it might hurt so we'd be prepared with pacifiers and stuff. And why didnt she looked at that ear, finally? If you will say that you are competent in this area and she did everything fine, then I will take your word for it and shut up.
And anyways there is freedom of mind , for now, so you are free to think whatever you want there is no limit.. Take care.

I commend you for handling these pricks well. I don't know what their problem is--making all those personal attacks, raising the hostlity of the discussion, and most pathetically, criticizing you for using the wrong word in a post on an internet message board in a non-native language. The whole time you've been pretty calm and polite.

 

[dutchman]

I commend you for handling these pricks well. I don't know what their problem is--making all those personal attacks, raising the hostlity of the discussion, and most pathetically, criticizing you for using the wrong word in a post on an internet message board in a non-native language. The whole time you've been pretty calm and polite.

Yeah I guess the whole vaseline thing, and insulting carribean medical graduates is polite.

 

[8744]

Yes, I do have exactly the organ you will get your nourishment from, after the federal boob dries up, I agree. I'd recomend you to get used to it right now. If you want, I will send you free samples free of charge, with a reasonable shipping fee. Dismissed.

The epitome of good manners in the Ukraine.

 

[APRV]

You are right Ukraine has nothing to do with it and its my mistake to let it out. We talked about free healthcare initially, and any particularities of any country which has it are irrelevant. So originally I said that it will be always "rich doctors VS affordable healthcare" , and there is no way of having them both. Anyone doesn't think so?

You're so naive, it's criminal. "Rich doctors" are the barrier to affordale healthcare for all????? Try the fact that the highest paid physicians don't even make a fraction, a miniscule fraction of what those who run the insurance comnpanies, managed care entities and the pharmaceutical industry do! Who are some of the highest paid CEO's in the world? Would it surprise you to know that some of them are these guys????

One other thing: Until YOU work your ass off for four years in medical school in debt up to your eyeballs, and then spend 3-9 years in residency and fellowship up to your elbows in other people's blood, piss, and crap, sleeping less in one week than you do in two days, don't you even DARE to think you have a right to hold yourself above us and tell us what we deserve in return. I love medicine and think it truly is the highest callingin life, but I have sacrificed more of my life than I care to think about, and work harder than you can even remotely imagine to be the best I can be at what I do.

 

[Avrelian]

You're so naive, it's criminal. "Rich doctors" are the barrier to affordale healthcare for all????? Try the fact that the highest paid physicians don't even make a fraction, a miniscule fraction of what those who run the insurance comnpanies, managed care entities and the pharmaceutical industry do! Who are some of the highest paid CEO's in the world? Would it surprise you to know that some of them are these guys????

One other thing: Until YOU work your ass off for four years in medical school in debt up to your eyeballs, and then spend 3-9 years in residency and fellowship up to your elbows in other people's blood, piss, and crap, sleeping less in one week than you do in two days, don't you even DARE to think you have a right to hold yourself above us and tell us what we deserve in return. I love medicine and think it truly is the highest callingin life, but I have sacrificed more of my life than I care to think about, and work harder than you can even remotely imagine to be the best I can be at what I do.

And what is a ratio between all those CEOs and top managers and MDs? I do agree that there are lots of trouble with all those insurance companies though.
And I am not implying that an MD should work for a cookie.
What I am suggesting is that there are should be not less than 1 MD per 250-270 people;
That foreign doctors with green cards shouldn't spend God knows how many years to pass the board if they have the same or higher level of knowledge as local ones;
That the government should actively sponsor and promote medical education , if not paying it all (1/5 of Medicare budget alone in 2006 would be enough to raise
an army of MDs similar to present one);
That malpractice insurance should be abolished ;
That the government should provide at least some real estate for hospitals and clinics;

After that make all money you want.

 

[beetlerum]

One other thing: Until YOU work your ass off for four years in medical school in debt up to your eyeballs, and then spend 3-9 years in residency and fellowship up to your elbows in other people's blood, piss, and crap, sleeping less in one week than you do in two days, don't you even DARE to think you have a right to hold yourself above us and tell us what we deserve in return. I love medicine and think it truly is the highest callingin life, but I have sacrificed more of my life than I care to think about, and work harder than you can even remotely imagine to be the best I can be at what I do.

And until you've done other people's jobs, don't you dare judge their "calling" relative to yours or the difficulty of their job relative to yours.

 

[Faebinder]

And until you've done other people's jobs, don't you dare judge their "calling" relative to yours or the difficulty of their job relative to yours.

How is what you are saying relative what you are quoting? He is talking about his experience in medicine as a career... he never mentioned any other career.. you act like he be littled someone... are you mixing threads?

Please stay focused.. This thread has gone from discussion of doctors being underpaid to medicine costs / styles in the US vs other locations... and finally my career vs virtually everyone's else.

At this point I would say kill the thread. Obviously everyone wont change their opinions no matter what evidence is presented, what they feel is true will be true...... Truthiness.

 

[Faebinder]

That the government should actively sponsor and promote medical education , if not paying it all (1/5 of Medicare budget alone in 2006 would be enough to raise
an army of MDs similar to present one);
That malpractice insurance should be abolished ;

What's the point of sponsering an army of MDs? So we can get low quality docs who get paid low wages? Do you think a doc who earns 50k a year will care as much as a doc earning 200k a year? You raise the stakes and the care goes up with it... Hence the malpractice as well.. an added stake... though you want to jump from one extreme of full lawsuits to the other extreme of 100% no lawsuits by abolishing malpractice insurance....

Are the costs what concerns you? because MD salaries are a small fraction of healthcare costs...

When you come to get a hernia repaired.. you are supposed to pay $15k and the surgeon gets only around 400 for it and the anesthesiologist gets another 400....

Likewise in the ER... the ER doc is not the one who is billing you for $4000... his bill is around 300.

 

[piggie]

does that mean we can further decrease MD's salary without compromising quality of care?

 

[mshheaddoc]

They are trying to do that in canada and are even having problems (granted not the same system) but they are now striking of teaching med students.

 

[hye345]

Bookmarking

 

[dutchman]

For thos that say socialized healthcare is more efficient, check this video out
http://www.onthefencefilms.com/video/brainsurgery.html

 

[Avrelian]

For thos that say socialized healthcare is more efficient, check this video out
http://www.onthefencefilms.com/video/brainsurgery.html

Who actually says that socialized healthcare is more efficient? The most efficient way is making private healthcare compete with socialized healthcare. And yeah, you gotta be real good to charge for something one can get for free. Frankly, i fail to imagine a doctor in a private clinic who didnt work his ass off in a governmental clinic/hospital for a good 5-6 years.
In the video they just try to compare Ontario's prohibition for private practice ( is it truth at all? ) with possible national insurance program here in States, which is like comparing a finger with other , more vital organ.

By the way I had MRI once in country #1 i lived in and twice in country #2 I lived in. I doubt if I waited more than an hour or two. Minor concussion in #1 and a minor car accident ( no head hits or injures whatsoever) and other minor accident in #2. When i tried to resist and complain that I dont want it to be done, I dont need it ( i just injured the hip), ets, ets, they just said that they will do everything they supposed to, or nothing at all. So, shortly, get in or get a .... out of here. Do I need to mention that there are were no charges for this and that both of these countries are a way poorer than Canada?

 

[Avrelian]

What's the point of sponsering an army of MDs? So we can get low quality docs who get paid low wages?

You know I had another "doctor expierence" just today. I decided to stretch my back a little and spent a night on the carpet, and someone turned off the heat during the night. More, I was stupid enough to suggest that the floor is made of the same crap as everything else in the building, i.e. compressed wood or something, but no-- it was concrete. So I got T 101.3-102.5 for 2 days, than on a third day I have 99.8 and feel great but go to do the "doctor thing" anyways, to calm down my wife's worries about kid's safety and check for a strep.
So the thing happens in the middle of USA, probably 50-60 miles from my area.
So we drive for 30-40 mins , and entering some big metal box, which supposed to mean clinic's building, I guessed. So, it took 1 hour driving (to and fro ) an hour waite "at the gate" , then an hour waite "in the room"
and $147 (one hundred and forty-seven dollars ) to see
a... medical assistant, for a good 5 or 7 minutes. Gosh she says, I am sorry but we are so busy today. And yeah, the funniest thing, she was making herself look like she was listening my lungs through my shirt
AND a thick sweater ( I am just terrified to think that it was
the way she was taught ) About the actual doctor-- I did see a big old guy melancholically walking the coridors sometimes, through the holes in the door, I guess it qualifies as "seeing a doctor" here in states. But guess what-- my relative took my scepticism personally. Really, as a personal offence. Apparently this assistent is her major doctor for whatever
problems she ever got. And she does have multiple health problems (no wonder ). She said that she even
"heard" as she (P.S) was discussing her case with "THE
Doctor". Once. Sometime ago.
So yes- there is a need of an army of MDs. And yes-- I will take a "low-quality doctor" before I take an "assistent" just any day. And a low-quality doctor will not last long in the medicine anyway, even in socialized system.

Do you think a doc who earns 50k a year will care as much as a doc earning 200k a year? You raise the stakes and the care goes up with it...

Well a doc who is a real doc , i.e. was honest on his medschool interviews for not less than 30%... will do his job honestly no matter what. I can be wrong but its just my opinion..

Hence the malpractice as well.. an added stake... though you want to jump from one extreme of full lawsuits to the other extreme of 100% no lawsuits by abolishing malpractice insurance....

And what is exactly malpractice insurance if not bribing an unlucky patient/relatives with his own money? If a doc did something really, really bad... there are plenty of jails available any day. If not -- there are a plethora of possible minor punishments whether with his practice , salary fines, or whatever else, or nothing at all.

Are the costs what concerns you? because MD salaries are a small fraction of healthcare costs...

When you come to get a hernia repaired.. you are supposed to pay $15k and the surgeon gets only around 400 for it and the anesthesiologist gets another 400....

$15K.. and you kick patient out within a day? So what other $14200 go for, electricity and gloves? And surgeon's $400- after a malpractice fees and taxes, he has what-- $200? Really?
Here is a little picture how it would be done in the country #1 ..
--Oh..Mister N.. you need a hernia repair. Today is what? 17/12? We'll put you for surgery for 10th-15th of January, no sooner. (Hospitalization and surgery are free, of course.)
So mister N gows/calls his cousin/third uncle/highschool friend who is in the field, and the friend says that Dr. Such&Such is an excelent surgeon .
--Oh.. Mister N.. you want your surgery performed by Dr Such&Such only? Ok.. But you know, he is fully booked, so I can put your surgery on for .. 17th of September.
So mister N., himself or most likely through his friend, meets Dr. Such&Such personally.
-Doctor.. My surgery is on for 17th of September, but you know, I'd really appreciate if we could do it sooner...
-Hmm.. Well, ok I am sure we can figure something out . Drop by my office tomorrow.

Something like that.

So it would take probably $100-300 cash , and the surgeon will share some of it with whomever he needs to, to have it done with a very good surgeon at the moment you want it to be done. Finally.. his salary is probably $150-350 net monthly, meantime average salary in the area is also $150-350. His second "salary" is probably anywhere between $1000 and $3000, net, meantime you can have a very comfortable living with $800-1000. He still does a whole bunch of surgeries even without "ëxtras", for no more than his salary,as any other surgeon. And , yes, recent grads will do it on the salary alone for kinda a very long time.

 

[DulcimerDude]

You know I had another "doctor expierence" just today. I decided to stretch my back a little and spent a night on the carpet, and someone turned off the heat during the night. More, I was stupid enough to suggest that the floor is made of the same crap as everything else in the building, i.e. compressed wood or something, but no-- it was concrete. So I got T 101.3-102.5 for 2 days, than on a third day I have 99.8 and feel great but go to do the "doctor thing" anyways, to calm down my wife's worries about kid's safety and check for a strep.
So the thing happens in the middle of USA, probably 50-60 miles from my area.
So we drive for 30-40 mins , and entering some big metal box, which supposed to mean clinic's building, I guessed. So, it took 1 hour driving (to and fro ) an hour waite "at the gate" , then an hour waite "in the room"
and $147 (one hundred and forty-seven dollars ) to see
a... medical assistant, for a good 5 or 7 minutes. Gosh she says, I am sorry but we are so busy today. And yeah, the funniest thing, she was making herself look like she was listening my lungs through my shirt
AND a thick sweater ( I am just terrified to think that it was
the way she was taught ) About the actual doctor-- I did see a big old guy melancholically walking the coridors sometimes, through the holes in the door, I guess it qualifies as "seeing a doctor" here in states. But guess what-- my relative took my scepticism personally. Really, as a personal offence. Apparently this assistent is her major doctor for whatever
problems she ever got. And she does have multiple health problems (no wonder ). She said that she even
"heard" as she (P.S) was discussing her case with "THE
Doctor". Once. Sometime ago.
So yes- there is a need of an army of MDs. And yes-- I will take a "low-quality doctor" before I take an "assistent" just any day. And a low-quality doctor will not last long in the medicine anyway, even in socialized system.

Dude, if you're paying $147 to see a doctor and $400 for your kid to see a doctor (from one of your previous posts), then you are going to the WRONG clinics!!

It took you an hour to get to a clinic? Where the heck were you, the middle of Wyoming? And your reason for seeing the doctor makes no sense. You were feeling great after two days but thought you might have strep....hmmmm....maybe you should have asked them to examine you for hantavirus too while you were there.

I've been reading this thread for days now, and your posts smell of lies, falsehoods, and making a bunch of completely unintelligible garbage up just to try and prove some bogus point. And you know what makes no sense to me? You whine about spending 5 minutes with a PA (definitely not an MA), yet you seem fine with the idea of spending a month in a Ukranian hospital for a hangnail or whatever.

 

[Avrelian]

Dude, if you're paying $147 to see a doctor and $400 for your kid to see a doctor (from one of your previous posts), then you are going to the WRONG clinics!!

Well, $147 I cashed out myself, not too many hours ago, as my new insurance, Blue Cross, apparently is much worse than I thought it would be. I have had United before. $400 ( what did I say there - $300-400? ) is a mere assumption, based on what I saw on the previous bill ($340-370) apparently, there are were charges for 3-4 vaccines my kid had there. I didnt remember about that at the moment, sorry. If you want I will look it up, and it seems that bill is still coming, to me not to the B.C., so I will tell you exactly how much they charge for pinching kids ear drums overthere, and for precribing antibiotics the kid didnt need to begin with.

It took you an hour to get to a clinic? Where the heck were you, the middle of Wyoming? And your reason for seeing the doctor makes no sense. You were feeling great after two days but thought you might have strep....hmmmm....maybe you should have asked them to examine you for hantavirus too while you were there.

half an hour each way, yes, it makes a waisted hour of driving. Rural USA.
Reason for a visit- to calm down my wife and my M in law. And I still got 99.9 regardless that I feel fine.

I've been reading this thread for days now, and your posts smell of lies, falsehoods, and making a bunch of completely unintelligible garbage up just to try and prove some bogus point. And you know what makes no sense to me? You whine about spending 5 minutes with a PA (definitely not an MA), yet you seem fine with the idea of spending a month in a Ukranian hospital for a hangnail or whatever.

Whats wrong with spending a month in the hospital with a hangnail or whatever, if you get paid the same way as you were actually doing your job? If you work in private sector and they will not pay you longer than a week or two for such an important occasion, then you can treat it faster.
As for lying , I've yet to complement my mother's in law dinner I didnt like.
If you can do better than that then sure.. call me a lier, whatever.

 

[DulcimerDude]

Whats wrong with spending a month in the hospital with a hangnail or whatever, if you get paid the same way as you were actually doing your job?

And now we get to the heart of the matter. Socialism at its best.... rewarding laziness, punishing achievement.

 

[Avrelian]

spending 5 minutes with a PA (definitely not an MA)

Is it normal at all that a PA or MA or whomever would listen your lungs for 10-20 seconds through a thick sweater with whatever else is below it? I am not intenting any prick this time, I just dont know.

 

[Avrelian]

And now we get to the heart of the matter. Socialism at its best.... rewarding laziness, punishing achievement.

(yawning )At Socialism , at its best, they would mobilize you and in 12 hours you'd be making small stones out of big ones somewhere near Alaska, for a pound of bread a day, no matter what did you do before. Socialism died in 1991, and China is not willing to revive it. What are you talking above is not a Socialism and is pretty much wellspread in US too, as well as all over the world.

 

[flighterdoc]

Who actually says that socialized healthcare is more efficient? The most efficient way is making private healthcare compete with socialized healthcare. And yeah, you gotta be real good to charge for something one can get for free. Frankly, i fail to imagine a doctor in a private clinic who didnt work his ass off in a governmental clinic/hospital for a good 5-6 years.
In the video they just try to compare Ontario's prohibition for private practice ( is it truth at all? ) with possible national insurance program here in States, which is like comparing a finger with other , more vital organ.

By the way I had MRI once in country #1 i lived in and twice in country #2 I lived in. I doubt if I waited more than an hour or two. Minor concussion in #1 and a minor car accident ( no head hits or injures whatsoever) and other minor accident in #2. When i tried to resist and complain that I dont want it to be done, I dont need it ( i just injured the hip), ets, ets, they just said that they will do everything they supposed to, or nothing at all. So, shortly, get in or get a .... out of here. Do I need to mention that there are were no charges for this and that both of these countries are a way poorer than Canada?

Wow, thats pretty good - 3 MRI's without Xray or CT first to check for metal?

I'd call that malpractice.

At any rate, it wouldn't happen in Canada in an hour. Britain either.

 

[flighterdoc]

As for lying , .....
If you can do better than that then sure.. call me a lier, whatever.

You're calling yourself that well enough without help from any of us.

 

[Avrelian]

Wow, thats pretty good - 3 MRI's without Xray or CT first to check for metal?

I'd call that malpractice.

At any rate, it wouldn't happen in Canada in an hour. Britain either.

Did I say that they didnt make any xray or other previously? No. Than why would you assume it? In country #2, which is Argentina by the way (Oh.. I already can forsee all those pricky remarks about how Argentina lost war in 1982, took a million nazi refugees in 1946 and devaluated its currency in 2001. Bring it on if it makes u feel better. Dont be shy)
they were making so many xrays of all parts of the body that I just wanted to get the hell out of there, if I wasnt afraid for my hip.

 

[1bloodyred]

I think we have the best quality of medicine in the world.

Not all people have access.

 

[Dawnfawn]

I think we have the best quality of medicine in the world.

Not all people have access.

Agreed.

 

[1bloodyred]

Did I say that they didnt make any xray or other previously? No. Than why would you assume it? In country #2, which is Argentina by the way (Oh.. I already can forsee all those pricky remarks about how Argentina lost war in 1982, took a million nazi refugees in 1946 and devaluated its currency in 2001. Bring it on if it makes u feel better. Dont be shy)
they were making so many xrays of all parts of the body that I just wanted to get the hell out of there, if I wasnt afraid for my hip.

I suppose you like the nazi?

 

[Miami_med]

Did I say that they didnt make any xray or other previously? No. Than why would you assume it? In country #2, which is Argentina by the way (Oh.. I already can forsee all those pricky remarks about how Argentina lost war in 1982, took a million nazi refugees in 1946 and devaluated its currency in 2001. Bring it on if it makes u feel better. Dont be shy)
they were making so many xrays of all parts of the body that I just wanted to get the hell out of there, if I wasnt afraid for my hip.

Well, I don't have anything against Argentina. I would say that it isn't exactly a model for proper resource allocation as you've already pointed out.

 

[flighterdoc]

Did I say that they didnt make any xray or other previously? No. Than why would you assume it? In country #2, which is Argentina by the way (Oh.. I already can forsee all those pricky remarks about how Argentina lost war in 1982, took a million nazi refugees in 1946 and devaluated its currency in 2001. Bring it on if it makes u feel better. Dont be shy)
they were making so many xrays of all parts of the body that I just wanted to get the hell out of there, if I wasnt afraid for my hip.

Well, you didn't mention it, and an hour isn't really enough time to get an x-ray or CT, evaluate it, get an MRI, evaluate it, and decide what to do (except take someone to surgery). And two hours is really pushing it.

As far as Argentina, don't cry for me. Of course, deciding to fight Britain was pretty stupid (btw, I was working for McDonnel-Douglas during the war, doing proving flights for one of the regional airlines in Argentina during the war, and we made sure we were ready to leave on a moments notice). I was in BA this past summer....what a cesspool it's become. Thankfully all my family has moved to the US or Spain.

But, that has nothing to do with you being a troll. Glad you like your socialist health care (from whichever socialist septic tank you're going to claim now), and good luck to you.

 

[Avrelian]

Glad you like your socialist health care (from whichever socialist septic tank you're going to claim now), and good luck to you.

I did like it a lot, thank you. Too bad in my current socialist septic tank, USA, socialist healthcare spreads only to old people and to those who dont want to work and their multiple progeny. However it will change eventually, as it did all over the world, and there is nothing you can do about it, like it or not, and most of you already know it. I wonder why are u so jumpy about it, as you close to retirement anyway. Kids in medschool? Well, if they went there for medicine they will get a lot of it, no reason to complain. Anyway, have a good rest of your life.

 

[Faebinder]

 

[Faebinder]

Crap, posted here by mistake.

 

[hye345]

Avrelian, are you armenian by any chance?

 

[Avrelian]

No, I'm not. Why?
Happy new year everyone.

 

[8744]

No, I'm not. Why?
Happy new year everyone.

He is from glorious country of Kazakhstan....you like?

 

[hye345]

He is from glorious country of Kazakhstan....you like?

It's cuz of his name 'arvelian'; armenian last names end in either 'yan' or 'ian'. I assumed that he was of armenian heritage.

 

[Avrelian]

One of the most stunning things here in States, is that an amazing %ile of people, even with college education , have microscopic or no knowledge at all of history or geography, and almost always that includes the very USA's history and geography.
Avrelian was a Roman Emperor, 270-275 AD

 

[Vox Animo]

One of the most stunning things here in States, is that an amazing %ile of people, even with college education , have microscopic or no knowledge at all of history or geography, and almost always that includes the very USA's history and geography.
Avrelian was a Roman Emperor, 270-275 AD

thats just superstition

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

One of the most stunning things here in States, is that an amazing %ile of people, even with college education , have microscopic or no knowledge at all of history or geography, and almost always that includes the very USA's history and geography.
Avrelian was a Roman Emperor, 270-275 AD

Rome is in that boot shaped country, I think its called Romania.

I demand you take geography out of your list of things Americans don't know very well.

 

[JadedSurgeon]

One of the most stunning things here in States, is that an amazing %ile of people, even with college education , have microscopic or no knowledge at all of history or geography, and almost always that includes the very USA's history and geography.
Avrelian was a Roman Emperor, 270-275 AD

Sorry, we weren't required to memorize every roman emperor that served only 5 f***ing years or less.

 

[Avrelian]

Rome is in that boot shaped country, I think its called Romania.

I demand you take geography out of your list of things Americans don't know very well.

Sorry, I've met too many people who thought that Hawaii is a an independent banana republic and Bahamas are US territory. So , no way.

 

[Avrelian]

Sorry, we weren't required to memorize every roman emperor that served only 5 f***ing years or less.

I agree that Avrelian is an overshot. However I know a Yale graduate who has never heard of existance of Ottoman Empire, Kievan Rus, ets.

 

[hye345]

Sorry, I've met too many people who thought that Hawaii is a an independent banana republic and Bahamas are US territory. So , no way.

 

[Miami_med]

Sorry, I've met too many people who thought that Hawaii is a an independent banana republic and Bahamas are US territory. So , no way.

You know, I haven't agreed with a word you've said about anything, but that is pretty funny.

 

[lateness]

Sorry, I've met too many people who thought that Hawaii is a an independent banana republic and Bahamas are US territory. So , no way.

if i could get a hold of that image, i would change a couple of things or modify them a bit, but overall that is pretty funny