Doctors underpaid

[Towelie]

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What about dentists making more money than physicians?

Do you guys think that's fair?

General dentist makes more than general physician and dental specialists income (with only 2 years of residency) compares well to medical specialists.

Getting into medical school is harder than getting into dental school and residency is more rigorous in medical than dental.

What do you guys think about this? The only thing physicians have better than dentists seems to be prestige, which can be important and, to some people, very important.

Go to www.salary.com and look at salaries for dentists and physicians. The salaries for dentists don't even approach those of physicians...

 

[sirus_virus]

I'm doing just fine in my interviews. Thanks for caring. I hope your spelling was better on your applications than it has been in this forum, or interviews will be the least of your troubles...

Have you ever met a doctor making only $40K because of malpractice? This happens so infrequently that it isn't even worth mentioning. And, in the rare cases that it does happen, it is due to a monumental screw up by the physician who loses the "bad mal case." Malpractice settlements don't appear out of thin air--they are the result of physician error.

Doctors make a great salary in today's society. That salary might be declining slightly, but as a physician you will definitely make a good living. I don't get what all of the crying and whining is about. If you're that sad about making $250K a year instead of $275K, you probably belong in another profession.

Your nearsightedness will not allow you see the main point which is declining physician compensation in the middle of rising medschool tuition and a hostile legal environment. So you think at this rate 10 years from now you are going to get paid that 250k you are talking about?

 

[Towelie]

Your nearsightedness will not allow you to see the main point which is declining physician compensation in the middle of rising medschool tuition and a hostile legal environment. So you think at this rate 10 years from now you are going to get paid that 250k you are talking about?

You're right. It might plummet down to, GASP, 240K. Oh no.

I believe that the legal environment will become less hostile in the next 10 years, because of tort reform legislation that is becoming more and more popular as the legal environment becomes more and more ridiculous.

As far as rising tuition costs go, they suck, but there are ways around them. Go to a state school, work hard enough to get a scholarship, etc.

 

[sirus_virus]

You're right. It might plummet down to, GASP, 240K. Oh no.

I believe that the legal environment will become less hostile in the next 10 years, because of tort reform legislation that is becoming more and more popular as the legal environment becomes more and more ridiculous.

As far as rising tuition costs go, they suck, but there are ways around them. Go to a state school, work hard enough to get a scholarship, etc.

It is the same "money grubbing" doctors that are spearheading a lot of the lobby for the tort reform that you are now seeking comfort in.

 

[Towelie]

It is the same "money grubbing" doctors that are spearheading a lot of the lobby for the tort reform that you are now seeking comfort in.

I'm not seeking comfort in anything. Like I said before, I don't care. If I wanted to make a ton of money, then I would do something else.

 

[luv2sd]

It is the same "money grubbing" doctors that are spearheading a lot of the lobby for the tort reform that you are now seeking comfort in.

so what are you trying to say? the original poster used some unreasonable reasons to justify that doctors are being underpaid but you are saying that doctors' salaries have been decreasing over the past decades (which is true, I know).

are you even gonna apply to medical schools or are you already in a medical school or what? the number of medical school students/appicants have been decreasing steadily over the past decades as well.

so...

which will come first?
severe shortage of doctors or decrease in their salaries

 

[Cirrus83]

Oh comon surely your not telling me money isnt a factor for u? you know theres ALOT more jobs out there where u get to help people and get paid nothing so why not do that instead?

im sick of people who say money isnt an issue for them to look good here but it is whether they wanna admit it or not..

i just find it unfair when HARD WORKING surgeons WORK THEIR **** OFF TO GET IN MED SCHOOL and become surgeons and have AN 18 OR EVEN YOUNGER ACT IN A MOVIE AND EARN MORE THAN THEY DOCTOR WILL IN HIS LIFETIME.
👎
a reasonable society we live in huh?

lol, I'd rather be a doctor making $150K a year than Lindsay Lohan making millions. No, I'm serious, I would NOT want to be Lindsay Lohan.

I mean, she can't drive for ****, gets into ******ed spats with other ******ed celebs, and has asthma. Plus, without all the movie makeup she actually looks kinda creepy, lol. Oh and while my own family isn't perfect, her family problems would make pretty much anybody else's seem insignificant.

So, in summary, I could care less that Lindsay Lohan makes a bazillion dollars, because I'd rather "only" make enough to drive a Mercedes Benz S550 and "merely" have a nice apartment plus a weekend home as a doctor.

Seriously, quit whining. Will you proceed to complain about lottery winners next? People with an inheritence? Anybody who marries rich? Jeez.

If you really care that much about making a bazillion dollars, just break all the rules of ethics and totally hit on some super wealthy patient whose life you managed to save, lol. Then marry them and take half their money when they eventually realize that they don't really love you that much lol. Problem solved. If you really want to, maybe become a drug addiction specialist and wait until Lindsay Lohan needs help down the road, lol.

 

[luv2sd]

lol, I'd rather be a doctor making $150K a year than Lindsay Lohan making millions. No, I'm serious, I would NOT want to be Lindsay Lohan.

I mean, she can't drive for ****, gets into ******ed spats with other ******ed celebs, and has asthma. Plus, without all the movie makeup she actually looks kinda creepy, lol. Oh and while my own family isn't perfect, her family problems would make pretty much anybody else's seem insignificant.

So, in summary, I could care less that Lindsay Lohan makes a bazillion dollars, because I'd rather "only" make enough to drive a Mercedes Benz S550 and "merely" have a nice apartment plus a weekend home as a doctor.

Seriously, quit whining. Will you proceed to complain about lottery winners next? People with an inheritence? Anybody who marries rich? Jeez.

I would get S65 AMG and race you

 

[Cirrus83]

What about dentists making more money than physicians?

Do you guys think that's fair?

General dentist makes more than general physician and dental specialists income (with only 2 years of residency) compares well to medical specialists.

Getting into medical school is harder than getting into dental school and residency is more rigorous in medical than dental.

What do you guys think about this? The only thing physicians have better than dentists seems to be prestige, which can be important and, to some people, very important.

Uh, no. Unless you're an orthodontist or an oral surgeon it's very unlikely that you'll be rolling in the dough.

 

[luv2sd]

Uh, no. Unless you're an orthodontist or an oral surgeon it's very unlikely that you'll be rolling in the dough.

dude my S65 AMG will kick your S550's ass

 

[Cirrus83]

While I agree with this...one thing should change. Either they stop lowering reimbursment or medschools lower tuition. A major attractive part to medicine in the US is the money....I don't believe in the being entitled to something crap, but if the us is sooooooooo worried about a doctor shortage then they need to stop making it such an unappealing field to be in. Seems like hollywood is making it sexy, of course then you get a bunch of people that halfass it because they want it to be like grey's anatomy or something.

You know, while we're on tuition, I would just like to point out that in recent years undergrad has been growing far faster than med school tuition.

Admittedly, med school tuition hasn't gotten cheaper, but at least you're not seeing the 9% annual hikes you'd see at top undergrad schools.

So now med school is like 55K a year, but undergrad is closing the gap, I think tuition (and room/board) is up to like 43K a year.

 

[luv2sd]

Cirrus83 is ignoring me

 

[Cirrus83]

dude my S65 AMG will kick your S550's ass

I know, I'll be the poor doctor who can only afford the S550. Just the thought of only being able to afford the "base" model S series is making me want to cry 🙁
woe is me...woe is me!

Seriously though, I'm sure even at 150K a year if you *really* wanted that S65 you could save up and blow your money on it.

Alternately, buy a real sports car instead of a 6000 pound sedan, lol.

 

[luv2sd]

I know, I'll be the poor doctor who can only afford the S550. Just the thought of only being able to afford the "base" model S series is making me want to cry 🙁
woe is me...woe is me!

Seriously though, I'm sure even at 150K a year if you *really* wanted that S65 you could save up and blow your money on it.

Alternately, buy a real sports car instead of a 6000 pound sedan, lol.

well you should do some more research and learn more about the car before you say that

S65 AMG can accelerate from 0-60 in just over four seconds with 612 horsepower. it's faster than 99% of the sportscars in the world 😀

 

[Cirrus83]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/01/opinion/01fri2.html?pagewanted=print

"We should worry about the effects on society as a whole when members of the educated elite think they are grossly underpaid."

=( how true...you know the sad thing is that it's people like the YouTube guys who are tempting all the people who would have been fine with being "only" six-figure people into ditching their jobs to pursue their crazy dreams of being bazillionaires.

I think the real effect would be that if enough of the rich actually became more of the superrich because they dumped their regular rich jobs, then you'd see the gap between rich and poor grow even wider...and then the next thing you know we'd be chased around with pitchforks as people try to revolt lol.

 

[Cirrus83]

well you should do some more research and learn more about the car before you say that

S65 AMG can accelerate from 0-60 in just over four seconds with 612 horsepower. it's faster than 99% of the sportscars in the world 😀

lol I know what the S65AMG is...but even if it accelerates ultra fast in a straight line, the laws of physics also mean that anything with that much momentum won't be able to do any serious high speed quick turning.

And who cares about 0-60 in over 4...the Corvette will do it in under 4, and for a hell of a lot cheaper AND be able to steer through a corner.

Plus, just wait until the Blue Devil comes out. Blue Devil

Anyways, I don't disagree that the S65 is still a pimptastic car, but if you seriously just want to go fast it doesn't make a lot of sense to go buy a 6000 pound sedan to do it lol.

I could buy a regular Corvette and an S550 and probably still have a bit of change left over instead of buying the S65...then I'd get the best of all worlds =)

And if you don't like the vette, well there's also all the Porsche 911 Turbos, the RUF tuned Porsche Turbos, and the Nissan Skyline GT-R is about to come stateside too...so there's plenty of competition.

 

[nicoleb]

You know, I was reading through this thread and I had to post something. I personally would MUCH rather be doing what I am doing then acting or modeling. First off, I had the option to go into modeling and choose not to because who the heck wants to go into those fields! Lol. Well I am sure it is right for some people, but those people get absolutely no mental stimulation and often end up miserable for the rest of their lives. (Yes I know some doctors end up miserable as well)

Besides can you imagine having no personal life? The public pretty much owns you and everyone is always talking about what you did last night. I mean you pick your nose once in your bathroom and you bet your bottom dollar that there will be a photo of it on the front of all the magazines.

And who said money is everything anyway, I mean I would be quite happy coming from $20,000 to $150,000-$300,000 a year. Especially doing something so challenging and exciting. I don't need 20m and quite frankly wouldn't want it because that kind of money corrupts people.

Besides our healthcare is expensive as it is, what about the poor families that cant afford to pay a surgeon 20m? And I honestly believe that if our government decides to do anything useful with their money there are many other things that it could go to like schools, or abused children.

 

[Cirrus83]

You know, I was reading through this thread and I had to post something. I personally would MUCH rather be doing what I am doing then acting or modeling. First off, I had the option to go into modeling and choose not to because who the heck wants to go into those fields! Lol. Well I am sure it is right for some people, but those people get absolutely no mental stimulation and often end up miserable for the rest of their lives. (Yes I know some doctors end up miserable as well)

Besides can you imagine having no personal life? The public pretty much owns you and everyone is always talking about what you did last night. I mean you pick your nose once in your bathroom and you bet your bottom dollar that there will be a photo of it on the front of all the magazines.

And who said money is everything anyway, I mean I would be quite happy coming from $20,000 to $150,000-$300,000 a year. Especially doing something so challenging and exciting. I don't need 20m and quite frankly wouldn't want it because that kind of money corrupts people.

Besides our healthcare is expensive as it is, what about the poor families that cant afford to pay a surgeon 20m? And I honestly believe that if our government decides to do anything useful with their money there are many other things that it could go to like schools, or abused children.

Haha...how true. Also, your myspace is like the most professional one I've ever seen in my life. It's probably the only myspace profile in the universe anybody wouldn't mind an Adcom seeing lol.

Oh, and you're hot (obligatory SDN "you're hot" post)

 

[nicoleb]

Haha...how true. Also, your myspace is like the most professional one I've ever seen in my life. It's probably the only myspace profile in the universe anybody wouldn't mind an Adcom seeing lol.

Oh, and you're hot (obligatory SDN "you're hot" post)

(sidetracked conversation here) Lol thanx what a warm welcome to the community 😉 Yeah I searched the internet for a good myspace theme over the period of a month and finally found the one I have up, that I really like. All the other myspace stuff is hard to read and it gives you a headache to look at some peoples pages! lol.

 

[luv2sd]

lol I know what the S65AMG is...but even if it accelerates ultra fast in a straight line, the laws of physics also mean that anything with that much momentum won't be able to do any serious high speed quick turning.

And who cares about 0-60 in over 4...the Corvette will do it in under 4, and for a hell of a lot cheaper AND be able to steer through a corner.

Plus, just wait until the Blue Devil comes out. Blue Devil

Anyways, I don't disagree that the S65 is still a pimptastic car, but if you seriously just want to go fast it doesn't make a lot of sense to go buy a 6000 pound sedan to do it lol.

I could buy a regular Corvette and an S550 and probably still have a bit of change left over instead of buying the S65...then I'd get the best of all worlds =)

And if you don't like the vette, well there's also all the Porsche 911 Turbos, the RUF tuned Porsche Turbos, and the Nissan Skyline GT-R is about to come stateside too...so there's plenty of competition.

you are missing the point here
mercedes-benz s class is the safest sedan in the world

 

[Rickybobby]

**** that. Let's keep the salary where it is now, where you can live more than comfortably, but not lavishly, and keep out all the money-grubbing dinguses and keep the ones truly motivated to do medicine.

Damn right.

RB

 

[luv2sd]

(sidetracked conversation here) Lol thanx what a warm welcome to the community 😉 Yeah I searched the internet for a good myspace theme over the period of a month and finally found the one I have up, that I really like. All the other myspace stuff is hard to read and it gives you a headache to look at some peoples pages! lol.

your myspace is SO NEAT AND ORGANIZED!!!
and you also live where I live!
Denver, Colorado huzzah!

I go to CU-Boulder. what about you? let's be friends 😉 haha

 

[baylormed]

(sidetracked conversation here) All the other myspace stuff is hard to read and it gives you a headache to look at some peoples pages! lol.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so, which is why I hate myspace.com

Those pages have absolutely no respect for the human eye. 😡

 

[luv2sd]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so, which is why I hate myspace.com

Those pages have absolutely no respect for the human eye. 😡

have you ever used facebook then?

 

[baylormed]

have you ever used facebook then?

Yes, facebook is clean and organized. I like facebook. 😛

 

[nicoleb]

your myspace is SO NEAT AND ORGANIZED!!!
and you also live where I live!
Denver, Colorado huzzah!

I go to CU-Boulder. what about you? let's be friends 😉 haha

Lol Right now I am in the RT Program at Pima Medical Institute, but I plan to go to CU boulder when I am finished in 2008, I might also end up at CSU, but I am not sure yet. CU is just such a party school, I don't like that.

PS Denver Rocks 😍

 

[luv2sd]

Lol Right now I am in the RT Program at Pima Medical Institute, but I plan to go to CU boulder when I am finished in 2008, I might also end up at CSU, but I am not sure yet. CU is just such a party school, I don't like that.

PS Denver Rocks 😍

there's no such thing as "party school"
if you are like me, you wouldn't go to stupid parties
I usually study for the exams and maintain 4.0 GPA
what do I do for fun? SDN!!! lol just kidding

 

[MossPoh]

You know, while we're on tuition, I would just like to point out that in recent years undergrad has been growing far faster than med school tuition.

Admittedly, med school tuition hasn't gotten cheaper, but at least you're not seeing the 9% annual hikes you'd see at top undergrad schools.

So now med school is like 55K a year, but undergrad is closing the gap, I think tuition (and room/board) is up to like 43K a year.

I know about tuition hikes...I go to penn state.lol I pay about 30k a year with housing and stuff..

 

[YupGypsy]

dude, when the revolution comes we know which side you're on 😉

Commie...

 

[Arc]

well you should do some more research and learn more about the car before you say that

S65 AMG can accelerate from 0-60 in just over four seconds with 612 horsepower. it's faster than 99% of the sportscars in the world 😀

Ill stick with a M3, and waste the leftover money on house furnishings thank you. 😛 Have fun losing a year's salary on a car.

Anyway, with the rate of inflation, healthcare, and Kaiser Permanante pushing to pay doctors a lower salary, don't you guys get worried that by the time you start practicing medicine, that the pay rate will drop a bit? Look at the situation right now, record numbers of people applying to med school, and the schools are expanding to accommodate for the increase of applications. That means more doctors, and it almost gives an incentive to cut doctors paychecks. One thing that I would really hate to see happen is that we spend so much time preparing for this profession, only to earn as much money as someone with only a bachelor's degree.

 

[mercymercy]

I have noticed that any time you ask a group of pre-meds why they are doing it, about 90% say it is not for the money. But when you look at the competition for medical specialties http://www.medfriends.org/match_statistics/2005 Match Outcomes.pdf You see that the competitiveness is clearly a function of money/lifestyle. Maybe the people not doing it for the money get weeded out or they change their mind while in medschool or they were lying to begin with.🙄

 

[45408]

dude my S65 AMG will kick your S550's ass

my CCX would trounce your S65

 

[seadizzle]

I have noticed that any time you ask a group of pre-meds why they are doing it, about 90% say it is not for the money. But when you look at the competition for medical specialties http://www.medfriends.org/match_statistics/2005 Match Outcomes.pdf You see that the competitiveness is clearly a function of money/lifestyle. Maybe the people not doing it for the money get weeded out or they change their mind while in medschool or they were lying to begin with.🙄

Most premeds aren't 100-200k in debt and have not looked at the prospect of supporting themselves completely.

 

[etf]

I know, I'll be the poor doctor who can only afford the S550. Just the thought of only being able to afford the "base" model S series is making me want to cry 🙁
woe is me...woe is me!

Seriously though, I'm sure even at 150K a year if you *really* wanted that S65 you could save up and blow your money on it.

Alternately, buy a real sports car instead of a 6000 pound sedan, lol.

actually, mercedes own statistics show that the average s-class driver earns $130,000/year, so you'll be able to join the club. me, i'd rather cut off my arm than be caught in a benz. pour moi, the realm of ferrari's and lamborghini's (let's hope)...or failing that, one of the ultimate driving machines.

 

[etf]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so, which is why I hate myspace.com

Those pages have absolutely no respect for the human eye. 😡

about half of my friends have myspace pages that are so loaded with graphics, music, videos, and the like, that i can't load them on my computer. and i'm using a macbook pro, with some really high speed internet. facebook is way nicer.

 

[DulcimerDude]

I have noticed that any time you ask a group of pre-meds why they are doing it, about 90% say it is not for the money. But when you look at the competition for medical specialties http://www.medfriends.org/match_statistics/2005 Match Outcomes.pdf You see that the competitiveness is clearly a function of money/lifestyle. Maybe the people not doing it for the money get weeded out or they change their mind while in medschool or they were lying to begin with.🙄

Spot on.

You say you'd be a doc for $60K per year, oh ye 20 year old premeds who have no idea what it really costs to live, especially with a huge debt load? Fine, let's look at that realistically. After taxes you net $48K (4K per month). Now minus $1,000 a month for paying off med school debt - and I know guys who are paying more by the way - which leaves you 3K per month. Modest house in a lot of states will run you $1300 per month, plus $500 a month in all utilities, insurance, and repairs if you're very careful and frugal. This leaves you $1200 per month. Let's say you own a crappy car outright. Still at least $200 a month in gas, insurance, oil, repairs, etc (if you're VERY lucky). Plus let's say $300 a month for food for you and your family (doable but you'd better like cheap food). You're now down to $700 per month. Let's say you work for a hospital and have a good health and dental plan. You'll still be paying at least $150 a month for that out of pocket, and you'd probably better sock away $50 a month just in case (for your copays and annual deductible in case something comes up). Now you're down to $500 per month. What about going out and having fun? We'll say a modest $100 per month. Household and personal goods (toiletries, cookware, haircuts, lightbulbs, etc etc etc etc etc etc) - at least $100 per month. Now you're at $300 per month. And what about savings? $300 a month in savings ain't much when you consider what can go wrong as a homeowner and as someone who could lose their job to illness or injury. You're out of money now. $0. Hope you weren't planning on saving for retirement. Or taking a vacation. Or sending your kids to school (or having kids for that matter, they cost a ton). Or donating to charities. Or buying Christmas and birthday gifts. Or about twenty other things I forgot to even include in this little budget. So if you want to be an MD for $60,000 a year, go right ahead. As for me, I want to help people, but I also want to be paid well (considering the debt load especially) which is why I want to go to medical school, not PA school which would be much quicker and which would allow me to help far more people I expect. PA's are amazing and they are doing a lot of good - if you truly don't care about the money or the prestige then I'd really suggest you go that route. You'll see more patients and have many more years to do so (and can easily do so in underserved communities where it's really needed! God bless our PA's!)

I get so sick of all the fake altruism and "I don't care at all about money" bullcrap. You don't care about money and would be OK with $60,000 per year? Fine, then when you are a doctor I'll expect you to donate anything you make beyond $60,000 a year to poor people to help them afford medical care. If you're not willing to do that then obviously you're not putting your money where your mouth is.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be in this for the love of helping people - it should be a big part of it. But to say that being a doctor is not also a "job" at the end of the day is just ludicrous. The poster I quoted is absolutely correct. If so many premeds are really so sincere about not needing money/lifestyle and just helping people (and we can assume 50% of these premeds get into medical school), then why the hell does derms continue to be so ridiculously competitive? And why are things like FM continually at the bottom of the list?

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be in this for the love of helping people - it should be a big part of it. But to say that being a doctor is not also a "job" at the end of the day is just ludicrous. The poster I quoted is absolutely correct. If so many premeds are really so sincere about not needing money/lifestyle and just helping people (and we can assume 50% of these premeds get into medical school), then why the hell does derms continue to be so ridiculously competitive? And why are things like FM continually at the bottom of the list?

I'm not a big fan of the altruism/helping people knee-jerk response either. But as a career changer, I would suggest that your career choice ought to be more about what you want to do and not what you want to earn.

Some of the specialties may be competitive because they are lifestyle cash cows (derm), while others are driven by other factors. The typical orthopod works a heck of a lot more hours than any lifestyle field for comparable money, and that is considered fairly competitive. And while FP is not well rewarded, there are IM subspecialties and things like pathology (neither considered particularly competitive) which are actually not toward the bottom of the list in income. So no, competitive does not equal money and lifestyle, although there are certainly some specialties that fit that mold.

Derm constitutes a very negligible percentage of any med school class, so is not really a good one to focus on as a model - it is more of an abberation. In most other cases, people pick what they want to do, not what pays the best. People with a family focus may err on the side of lifestyle fields. But it doesn't break down that the best students pick the highest pay they can get -- it really truly doesn't work that way, and probably shouldn't. Many of the top students choose things like surgery, which isn't really one of the uber competitive specialties. Quite a few smart people choose peds (not competitive) because they really like kids. You pick what you like to do. You will be doing it, in some cases, 60+ hours per week for the rest of your life.

One thing I believe you will find (and was certainly true in law as well) is that a profession does not fit the role of "just a job" in many respects. You will be regulated by your peers in ways a job wouldn't, you will have legal and professional expectations and obligations on you a job wouldn't, you will have hours and pressures on you a typical job wouldn't. If you look at it as just a job, you will be forever frustrated by these kinds of things, and forever comparing yourself with folks in other industries, who have it different.
just my 2 cents.

 

[DulcimerDude]

Law2doc, I agree with pretty much everything you said in your above post. Please don't think I'm saying you shouldn't love what you're doing or that you should go into medicine just for the money. In no way do I feel that. My main point (and perhaps I overstated it) is that if really, truly, ALL you care about is "helping people", you will actually probably be a lot better off becoming an RN or PA or something - a lot more patient care, a lot less of the administrative and legal bull#$&#, and many more years to work helping others, seeing as you won't be in school nearly as long. I guess my thought/question for all of these people is: There are SO MANY fields within and outside of medicine where you could help people, and a great number of these fields would allow you to spend MUCH MORE TIME percentage-wise actually "helping people" than being an MD would. So if you really don't care one single bit about money, position, or prestige, then why spend all of the time and incur so much debt becoming a doctor? I just don't get it. Why not avoid all of the heartache and pain of premed studies, EC's, MCAT's, 4 years of med school, 3-8 years of residency and fellowship, and a quarter million in debt - and just go get a 2 year RN degree from a community college? Maybe I'm just jaded, and perhaps someone can explain this to me if I am, but at the end of the day I think that people who say they'd go through all of this for $40,000 or $60,000 a year plus the debt are kidding themselves.

Or to put this whole thing another way, do you really think we'd be filling teaching slots (another big "calling" career) in the public schools if a teacher's license required 11-16 years of school/residency plus $250K in debt? I doubt it.

 

[Law2Doc]

Maybe I'm just jaded, and perhaps someone can explain this to me if I am, but at the end of the day I think that people who say they'd go through all of this for $40,000 or $60,000 a year plus the debt are kidding themselves.

I think it would be a different subset of people, but suspect you could fill medical positions at 40-60. The bottom ranks of lawyers earn in this ballpark or less, and they have had three years of professional school debt. And in some other countries physicians are not particularly well compensated and still not in as short a supply. So yes, I suspect there probably are folks out there who would do medicine even if the salaries didn't go up appreciably after residency. Schools wouldn't be able to be selective, but they could fill their classes. But we wouldn't necessarilly be talking about the best and the brightest, so I suspect malpractice insurance costs would go up appreciably.
But I also think there are a lot of people in undergrad who don't have a great sense of how much life costs. I sure didn't, until I was actually in the rat race. (And FWIW living on $40k in a big city, rats aren't going to be an exaggeration, I'm afraid ).

 

[seadizzle]

lol, I'd rather be a doctor making $150K a year than Lindsay Lohan making millions. No, I'm serious, I would NOT want to be Lindsay Lohan.

because I'd rather "only" make enough to drive a Mercedes Benz S550 and "merely" have a nice apartment plus a weekend home as a doctor.

150k really isn't that much after taxes. I hope you don't have any majors expenses other than your S550 and the weekend home, like...kids in private school or college or an appetite for exotic vactions.

sure 150k is a ton if you are living like you making 50k in a rural town, but you'll realize that 150k doesn't go very far if you are trying to live an upper-middle class lifestyle in an expensive suburb. good luck with the 500k+ house, 80-100k car+ one for the wife, two kids in college, family vacation to europe

 

[Law2Doc]

150k really isn't that much after taxes. I hope you don't have any majors expenses other than your S550 and the weekend home, like...kids in private school or college or an appetite for exotic vactions.

sure 150k is a ton if you are living like you making 50k in a rural town, but you'll realize that 150k doesn't go very far if you are trying to live an upper-middle class lifestyle in an expensive suburb. good luck with the 500k+ house, 80-100k car+ one for the wife, two kids in college, family vacation to europe

If by weekend home he means the back seat of the car, then it should work out fine.

 

[seadizzle]

I think it would be a different subset of people, but suspect you could fill medical positions at 40-60. The bottom ranks of lawyers earn in this ballpark or less, and they have had three years of professional school debt. And in some other countries physicians are not particularly well compensated and still not in as short a supply. So yes, I suspect there probably are folks out there who would do medicine even if the salaries didn't go up appreciably after residency. Schools wouldn't be able to be selective, but they could fill their classes. But we wouldn't necessarilly be talking about the best and the brightest, so I suspect malpractice insurance costs would go up appreciably.
But I also think there are a lot of people in undergrad who don't have a great sense of how much life costs. I sure didn't, until I was actually in the rat race. (And FWIW living on $40k in a big city, rats aren't going to be an exaggeration, I'm afraid ).

If I'm going under the knife, I don't care if she's in it for the money or for the love of the profession, I want the *best*. So, I like my surgeons making 500k+ if it attracts someone who would have otherwise done something else, but is an exceptional surgeon.

 

[Law2Doc]

If I'm going under the knife, I don't care if she's in it for the money or for the love of the profession, I want the *best*. So, I like my surgeons making 500k+ if it attracts someone who would have otherwise done something else, but is an exceptional surgeon.

There would be some overlap between good people and who they could get. But yeah, I think the previous generations society came to the conclusion you did. The current generations, though, perhaps not so much -- you are seeing a 7% per year drop in physician salaries, and a big increase in non-physician practitioners doing procedures. We shall see how far this goes.

 

[seadizzle]

If by weekend home he means the back seat of the car, then it should work out fine.

at least it's a nice back seat

 

[DulcimerDude]

I think it would be a different subset of people, but suspect you could fill medical positions at 40-60. The bottom ranks of lawyers earn in this ballpark or less, and they have had three years of professional school debt. And in some other countries physicians are not particularly well compensated and still not in as short a supply. So yes, I suspect there probably are folks out there who would do medicine even if the salaries didn't go up appreciably after residency. Schools wouldn't be able to be selective, but they could fill their classes. But we wouldn't necessarilly be talking about the best and the brightest, so I suspect malpractice insurance costs would go up appreciably.
But I also think there are a lot of people in undergrad who don't have a great sense of how much life costs. I sure didn't, until I was actually in the rat race. (And FWIW living on $40k in a big city, rats aren't going to be an exaggeration, I'm afraid ).

I hear you on that one! When I left home and started paying my own bills it was eye opening to say the least. You learn how to manipulate ramen noodles into gourmet meals 🙂 And that's on $25,000-$30,000 a year!

 

[nradsoit3]

Malpractice settlements don't appear out of thin air--they are the result of physician error.QUOTE]

Boy are you really wet behind the ears!

 

[Law2Doc]

Malpractice settlements don't appear out of thin air--they are the result of physician error.QUOTE]

Boy are you really wet behind the ears!

Well, if he said awards instead of settlements, I would have agreed with him. A recent Harvard Med study published this past year suggested that the number of truly frivolous cases was actually surprisingly low, and awards on those even lower. But insurance companies have been known to settle cases based on their calculation of "nuisance" value even if they believe the physician would ultimately prevail. Eg. Why spend $50k on litigation to prevail on a suit you can settle for $40k.

 

[Eric Lindros]

I don't think Doctors are necessarily underpaid, especially those in family or general practice. Last time I went to my family practitioner, he looked at me for about 5 minutes and prescribed me antibiotics. Seemed like a pretty typical office visit for him. When the going gets tough, it's a referral. I know I may be exaggerating, but that's not bad for $150,000 a year.

The real problem lies in medical school tuition absolutely skyrocketing. Only a decade ago some schools were HALF the price. Now, by the time a FP doctor gets out into the real word, his 150,000 worth of debt makes it seem like he's not getting paid enough. No, he's getting paid just fine......he just got royally screwed with the bill for school.

I think this tuition increase is a major major problem on all levels (undergrad too) It's steering students towards the professions that are currently more lucrative and keeping them away from jobs that are still needed.

 

[Law2Doc]

I don't think Doctors are necessarily underpaid, especially those in family or general practice. Last time I went to my family practitioner, he looked at me for about 5 minutes and prescribed me antibiotics. Seemed like a pretty typical office visit for him. When the going gets tough, it's a referral. I know I may be exaggerating, but that's not bad for $150,000 a year.

The catch in family practice is that to earn the $150k, he has to see an extraordinary number of patients, and thanks to periodic insurance reimbursement adjustments, the necessary throughput has continued to increase. And not all patients are going to be basically healthy young people who are in and out in 5 minutes. You were probably more the exception than the rule. Many more will be elderly people with multiple things wrong with them, requiring a more significant workup.

 

[DrZeke]

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