Doctors underpaid

[Avrelian]

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You are an ass. I guess in the Ukraine when you have an MI (heart attack) at age 62 you are just out of luck. Oops, sorry. Our wonderful socialized health care only covers you if you are not actually sick. Hang nails? Terrific! Come on in to one of our Potemkin Hospitals and spend a month or two!

There is a difference between treating someone who is old but otherwise has a good quality of life and the expectation for many more years and treating someone who is terminal. I can tell the difference. Your society obviously cannot. No wonder the life expectancy in the former Soviet Republics is much less than in the West and all of the non-moslem former states are declining in population at an astounding rate. Who's going to take care of all your old people twenty years from now?

Nobody.

Yes, I do have exactly the organ you will get your nourishment from, after the federal boob dries up, I agree. I'd recomend you to get used to it right now. If you want, I will send you free samples free of charge, with a reasonable shipping fee. Dismissed.

 

[beetlerum]

There is a difference between treating someone who is old but otherwise has a good quality of life and the expectation for many more years and treating someone who is terminal. I can tell the difference. Your society obviously cannot. No wonder the life expectancy in the former Soviet Republics is much less than in the West and all of the non-moslem former states are declining in population at an astounding rate. Who's going to take care of all your old people twenty years from now?

Nobody.

[/QUOTE]

He wasn't saying they don't treat old people with a good quality of life.

Some of your comments are probably right, but there's something about the way you're saying them and the assumptions you're making about the Ukraine. You basically seem like a bigot on this thread.

 

[Avrelian]

Well, not too many 17 year olds need knee replacements, but those that do get them for free too: Children under 18 are covered by medicare as well - never mind EMTALA. So, what exactly is your point, if you have one?

Olrighty, I'd like to see you replacing a knee for 18 years old guy then. The point is that I am not gonna see it happening, first, becouse you doctors want more than this 18-year old could possibly have, second becouse government is barely able of replacing knees of the all undead you have.
This philosophy, that young people should rot alive meantime paying medicare taxes so you doctors will make a mint of the old people, is sick and it will die, regardless of your opinion about it. It will die along with mega-billion charges you present to uncle Sam, so have it in mind when designing your air castles, while going through medschool/residency.

 

[Avrelian]

Yes the US will someday look at Ukraine and say "hell why don't we try that Ukrainian style of medicine? all we have to do is let our seniors die, stop paying doctors and we have a solution".

How many times does socialism have to fail before you guys get the point? Is it not enough that most of the former Soviet union is reeling in poverty?
Look, the United states runs their system with money not bull****.

Are you OK guys? What does Ukraine have to do with it? what does most of the former USSR have to do with this? I am talking about free , government sponsored, medical care, which exist all over the world not about specifics of former Soviet Union. And it does not have to do anything with socialism. If it does, than USA is the only capitalist country in the world.

 

[8744]

Olrighty, I'd like to see you replacing a knee for 18 years old guy then. The point is that I am not gonna see it happening, first, becouse you doctors want more than this 18-year old could possibly have, second becouse government is barely able of replacing knees of the all undead you have.
This philosophy, that young people should rot alive meantime paying medicare taxes so you doctors will make a mint of the old people, is sick and it will die, regardless of your opinion about it. It will die along with mega-billion charges you present to uncle Sam, so have it in mind when designing your air castles, while going through medschool/residency.

Dude, everybody is going to die someday. Even the newborn babe is dying, he only has 80 years to live.

You are pretty confused. At first you argued that the Ukraine has great health care. Then you admit that it was only great if you wanted to hang out at the hospital for a month or so with a really bad hangnail. Now you seem to take pride in the fact that your country looks at the elderly (which in your country is probably around 50) as useless and pretty much let's them die like dogs without the benefit of the medical care that our elderly get in our imperfect but functioning health care system.

You're moving the goal posts shamelessly here. I know of quite a few 18-year olds who have had major knee surgery (sports injuries). It is not uncommon here and it doesn't even cost that much. It is a knee, after all. You walk on them. Without them you're a cripple. Seems to me they're worht more than a couple of hundred dollars that they would cost in the Ukraine if you could even have it done which you can't.

 

[tncekm]

Are you OK guys? What does Ukraine have to do with it? what does most of the former USSR have to do with this? I am talking about free , government sponsored, medical care, which exist all over the world not about specifics of former Soviet Union. And it does not have to do anything with socialism. If it does, than USA is the only capitalist country in the world.

Free health care is socialist by definition. And, the term "free" is misleading. This "free" healthcare usually comes with a 60% + tax--hardly what I'd call free.

 

[Avrelian]

From the World Health Organization (WHO):



Source: http://www.euro.who.int/eprise/main/WHO/Progs/CHHUKR/sum/20041126_2

So what? You cant compare the lifestyle. It has nothing to do with medicine. When we party, we prepare a bottle of vodka per each male and 0.5-0.7 of a bottle per female. A person is considered drunk when he/she needs a wall to walk or an interpreter to talk . Too drunk when he/she cannot sit on the chair, forget about walking or talking. And people party like this starting from junior high. So. smoking+booze+ street fights+ alcohol related accidents= 63 is not that bad.
Again, what does have Ukraine to do with it? Why dont you pull up numbers for Norway or Sweden? They have a free healthcare too.

 

[Vox Animo]

. It will die along with mega-billion charges you present to uncle Sam, so have it in mind when designing your air castles, while going through medschool/residency.

I plan on going with a rather conservative design on my air castle. So i'm going to do my part and keep my charges in the millions.

Call me a hippie or just plain naive, but i think i can fight the system.

 

[Avrelian]

Free health care is socialist by definition. And, the term "free" is misleading. This "free" healthcare usually comes with a 60% + tax--hardly what I'd call free.

The only country I can think of with 55-60% tax is Norway. And they do know what they pay for. With american 30-35% plus 5-10% of state taxes, plus 6% for social security, which none of us young people will ever get, plus Medicare ( same ) plus whatever else, you end up with a similar TAX, the only difference is that you have no idea whether a penny from your taxes will be spent on your interests.
In Ukraine income tax is about 10% and people dont pay it as they think the government is stealing all the money anyway. Plus most people do have an underthetable income, so these 10% is nothing.The sales tax is the main income of the government -- it is 20%
In Argentina income tax is practically non-existant as well, sales tax=21%.
Doctors make twice more than the average salary, which is not bad overthere. Medschool is 7 years, which is of course free , starting after the high school, plus residency.

Finally we dont need megabillions to make healthcare affordable to everyone.
1) government expanded schools ;
2) free education/support during schooling;
3) government building hospitals/clinics;
4) tax benefits/dotations for medical equipment/drugs producers;

Just with this you get an affordable healthcare, there's no need for a free one. But I dont see how doctors will make more , than, say, PhDs with this.

 

[Avrelian]

I plan on going with a rather conservative design on my air castle. So i'm going to do my part and keep my charges in the millions.

Call me a hippie or just plain naive, but i think i can fight the system.

That's exactly what the system/systems for. Godspeed.

 

[sdn1977]

Though I disagree with this philosophy, everyone in the US over 65 gets Medicare, which pays either directly or through specific Medicare HMO plans for care. Sometimes there are co-pays, but I have NEVER heard of an elderly person not getting care. The government will pay. Many of our medical shortages, in beds and personel, can be directly attributed to the fact that people who are inevitably going to die will nevertheless receive $100,000s of care in their last month of life. That is in THIS country.

I don't mean to belabor a point with you Miami, but not everyone over 65 gets all parts of Medicare in the US. Everyone over 65 who is a citizen or has beeen a permanent resident for over 10 years gets Medicare Part A (& some younger who have certain disabilities - end stage renal disease for example) & this is at no charge for some depending on what their social security status is. Part A is hospitalization only.

Not everyone has Part B which is the medical benefit - doctor visits, immunizations among others. This part does cost the beneficiary & is dependent on their social security & other income (retirement, investment, etc...) For 2006, it started at about $89/mo & went up from there.😕

I've known many pts & some of my family members who do not have Part B. Some folks who have good retirement health benefits choose not to enroll in Part B.

There are always copays with Part A - the beneficiary pays the first $400 (last I checked) & must stay out of the hospital at least 60 days before they qualify for another hospitalization.

Part B benefits & copays vary - depending on the choice of plans.

Part D - the drug benefit - is endlessly variable with no uniformity of coverage, formulary or copays & can change without notice. Part D is not used by many over 65, however is used by the dually eligible. It is predicted that more of us who are under 65 will use this benefit, which will become a huge financial burden, because there are less of us who get retirement health benefits than those who are currently 65 or older.

There are also the dual insured - Medicare/Medicaid which changes the whole makeup of providers, benefits & coverage allowances & varies by state.

I have actually seen elderly folks who do not see physcians because there are areas near me where physicians don't take Medicare Part B assignments (as Kent said...you can opt out) & they don't have a secondary health insurance. So...they wait to get sick enough to go to the hospital...then their Part A kicks in...until they get discharged....cycle over & over...

These doctors choose to not be underpaid - they don't take Medicare Part B. As Kent said...they've made their choice to look at they payor mix & decided they don't want or need it. So...the elderly then have to make choices...to stay in the area or leave, which some do...

Its not as cut & dried or as uniform as you might think.

 

[flighterdoc]

From the World Health Organization (WHO):



Source: http://www.euro.who.int/eprise/main/WHO/Progs/CHHUKR/sum/20041126_2

Well, when you spend a week in the hospital pre-herniorraphy for 'lab work' I guess it's easy to misplace those 8 years

 

[flighterdoc]

Olrighty, I'd like to see you replacing a knee for 18 years old guy then. The point is that I am not gonna see it happening, first, becouse you doctors want more than this 18-year old could possibly have, second becouse government is barely able of replacing knees of the all undead you have.
This philosophy, that young people should rot alive meantime paying medicare taxes so you doctors will make a mint of the old people, is sick and it will die, regardless of your opinion about it. It will die along with mega-billion charges you present to uncle Sam, so have it in mind when designing your air castles, while going through medschool/residency.

Once again, you are speaking from a position of ignorance. Show up to a county hospital needing a knee replacement and guess what? You get it. A friend of mine (not insured by any program) broke his hip and got a hip replacement, paid for by the people of Los Angeles County, and Medicare (who paid for the residents salaries). Good care, by the way.

 

[flighterdoc]

Are you OK guys? What does Ukraine have to do with it? what does most of the former USSR have to do with this? I am talking about free , government sponsored, medical care, which exist all over the world not about specifics of former Soviet Union. And it does not have to do anything with socialism. If it does, than USA is the only capitalist country in the world.

Government funded anything is by definition socialist, if not communist. The NHS in Britain, the health care in Canada, the health care in Cuba, all socialist.

There is even socialist health care in the US (Medicare and afiliated programs). Medicare is a substandard program (as socialist medical care is EVERYWHERE), and we're trying hard to avoid getting any more of it.

 

[8744]

So what? You cant compare the lifestyle. It has nothing to do with medicine. When we party, we prepare a bottle of vodka per each male and 0.5-0.7 of a bottle per female. A person is considered drunk when he/she needs a wall to walk or an interpreter to talk . Too drunk when he/she cannot sit on the chair, forget about walking or talking. And people party like this starting from junior high. So. smoking+booze+ street fights+ alcohol related accidents= 63 is not that bad.
Again, what does have Ukraine to do with it? Why dont you pull up numbers for Norway or Sweden? They have a free healthcare too.

You're Borat, right?

 

[flighterdoc]

So what? You cant compare the lifestyle. It has nothing to do with medicine. When we party, we prepare a bottle of vodka per each male and 0.5-0.7 of a bottle per female. A person is considered drunk when he/she needs a wall to walk or an interpreter to talk . Too drunk when he/she cannot sit on the chair, forget about walking or talking. And people party like this starting from junior high. So. smoking+booze+ street fights+ alcohol related accidents= 63 is not that bad.
Again, what does have Ukraine to do with it? Why dont you pull up numbers for Norway or Sweden? They have a free healthcare too.

So, Ukraine is a nation of homeless winos? We have those in the US too - and they live on average longer than 63.

BTW, the 'free' healthcare in Sweden has a tax rate of around 60%. And Sweden's death rate is exceeding the birth rate so the country is dying

 

[flighterdoc]

You're Borat, right?

Borat is funny and entertaining.....so no.

 

[flighterdoc]

The only country I can think of with 55-60% tax is Norway. And they do know what they pay for. With american 30-35% plus 5-10% of state taxes, plus 6% for social security, which none of us young people will ever get, plus Medicare ( same ) plus whatever else, you end up with a similar TAX, the only difference is that you have no idea whether a penny from your taxes will be spent on your interests.
In Ukraine income tax is about 10% and people dont pay it as they think the government is stealing all the money anyway. Plus most people do have an underthetable income, so these 10% is nothing.The sales tax is the main income of the government -- it is 20%
In Argentina income tax is practically non-existant as well, sales tax=21%.
Doctors make twice more than the average salary, which is not bad overthere. Medschool is 7 years, which is of course free , starting after the high school, plus residency.

Finally we dont need megabillions to make healthcare affordable to everyone.
1) government expanded schools ;
2) free education/support during schooling;
3) government building hospitals/clinics;
4) tax benefits/dotations for medical equipment/drugs producers;

Just with this you get an affordable healthcare, there's no need for a free one. But I dont see how doctors will make more , than, say, PhDs with this.

My last job before I went to medical school (Project Manager, IBM) I made well into 6 figures salary. My total tax hit in 2000 (the last year I worked full time, and before the tax reductions in 2003) was right around 44% including income, unemployment, state disability, state income tax, medicare, property taxes, sales taxes, fuel taxes, the Gore tax on telephones, etc. And yes, that was too much.

My wife, who is Canadian, pays in excess of 50% right now, between income taxes, GST and PST. And in the socialist wonderland to the north, finding a Primary Care Physician is difficult to impossible - in Ottawa, the Nations Capital. She worked in Kingston, Ont for a couple of years, it took her over 1 year to find a PCP that would take her on at all....so she'd have to go to Ottawa (2-3 hour drive) for routine care. So Canadians are paying a lot for substandard care...

 

[Miami_med]

I don't mean to belabor a point with you Miami, but not everyone over 65 gets all parts of Medicare in the US. Everyone over 65 who is a citizen or has beeen a permanent resident for over 10 years gets Medicare Part A (& some younger who have certain disabilities - end stage renal disease for example) & this is at no charge for some depending on what their social security status is. Part A is hospitalization only.

Not everyone has Part B which is the medical benefit - doctor visits, immunizations among others. This part does cost the beneficiary & is dependent on their social security & other income (retirement, investment, etc...) For 2006, it started at about $89/mo & went up from there.😕

I've known many pts & some of my family members who do not have Part B. Some folks who have good retirement health benefits choose not to enroll in Part B.

There are always copays with Part A - the beneficiary pays the first $400 (last I checked) & must stay out of the hospital at least 60 days before they qualify for another hospitalization.

Part B benefits & copays vary - depending on the choice of plans.

Part D - the drug benefit - is endlessly variable with no uniformity of coverage, formulary or copays & can change without notice. Part D is not used by many over 65, however is used by the dually eligible. It is predicted that more of us who are under 65 will use this benefit, which will become a huge financial burden, because there are less of us who get retirement health benefits than those who are currently 65 or older.

There are also the dual insured - Medicare/Medicaid which changes the whole makeup of providers, benefits & coverage allowances & varies by state.

I have actually seen elderly folks who do not see physcians because there are areas near me where physicians don't take Medicare Part B assignments (as Kent said...you can opt out) & they don't have a secondary health insurance. So...they wait to get sick enough to go to the hospital...then their Part A kicks in...until they get discharged....cycle over & over...

These doctors choose to not be underpaid - they don't take Medicare Part B. As Kent said...they've made their choice to look at they payor mix & decided they don't want or need it. So...the elderly then have to make choices...to stay in the area or leave, which some do...

Its not as cut & dried or as uniform as you might think.

Fair enough.

However, I never said it was cut and dry. What I said is that everyone over 65 gets care. This is a debate about hospital care, so that statement is still correct. Yes, it's more complicated in terms of payment, but everyone gets it in the end.

 

[deleted87716]

Again, what does have Ukraine to do with it?

Dude...we've been wondering that since you first brought it up.

 

[Avrelian]

So, Ukraine is a nation of homeless winos? We have those in the US too - and they live on average longer than 63.

BTW, the 'free' healthcare in Sweden has a tax rate of around 60%. And Sweden's death rate is exceeding the birth rate so the country is dying

There are some homeless people. Not too many. Homeless person in Ukraine is a person who doesnt have his home, i.e. pays rent or mortgage.

taxes in Sweden.

till SEK284300== 29 to 34% depending on residence
till SEK 430000 20% more
over 430 000 5% more

Average monthly salary in Sweden by september 2006 is 299 000 per year. So the tax will be between 89650 to SEK104600. Good luck satisfying uncle Sam with that much. And i will repeat, they know what they are paying for. Do you?

[/quote] And Sweden's death rate is exceeding the birth rate so the country is dying[/quote]

You are not serious are you? Ever heard of overpopulation? There are less than 3/4 of an acre of an ok for barley&beets land per each Swede. What, Bangladesh and Taiwan are your ideals for living? Some nations naturally stop overbreeding due to excessive amounts of brains in their heads. ALL European nations, in fact.

 

[8744]

...You are not serious are you? Ever heard of overpopulation? There are less than 3/4 of an acre of an ok for barley&beets land per each Swede. What, Bangladesh and Taiwan are your ideals for living? Some nations naturally stop overbreeding due to excessive amounts of brains in their heads. ALL European nations, in fact...

Whoa. If a country depends on taxation of the young to pay for the care of the elderly, a decrease in population is not a good thing at all as it means that there will be fewer young people supporting more elderly. This is what is happening in Europe. And the decline in birth-rate is not because of some governmental policy (the immigrants seem to be having babies just fine) but more a result of the general malaise and selfishness engendered by chronic socialism.

It is not uncommon, even in the upper classes of the United States, for a family to have three, four, or more children. This is exceedingly rare in Europe where a couple might manage to push out a single child when they get bored of the cradle-to-grave lifestyle. Americans, whatever our faults, are forward thinking and optimistic which is required to make the choice to have a big family. Europeans are not being generally jaded and uninterested in the uncertainty of life, having been conditioned for dependence.

Sweden is not Bangladesh, neither is France or any other European country. It is not a question of "over-breeding" (a despicable term to apply to your fellow human-beings) at all. The Europeans (and the Russians) are not breeding at all to the point that their tired, jaded societies are actively dying out. I believe the birthrate in Europe is only 1.3 per couple. It takes slightly more than 2.0 to even maintain your population.

 

[8744]

So what? You cant compare the lifestyle. It has nothing to do with medicine. When we party, we prepare a bottle of vodka per each male and 0.5-0.7 of a bottle per female. A person is considered drunk when he/she needs a wall to walk or an interpreter to talk . Too drunk when he/she cannot sit on the chair, forget about walking or talking. And people party like this starting from junior high. So. smoking+booze+ street fights+ alcohol related accidents= 63 is not that bad.
Again, what does have Ukraine to do with it? Why dont you pull up numbers for Norway or Sweden? They have a free healthcare too.

Perhaps the most incomprehensible post ever to appear on SDN.

 

[dutchman]

You're Borat, right?

 

[erichaj]

The only country I can think of with 55-60% tax is Norway. And they do know what they pay for. With american 30-35% plus 5-10% of state taxes, plus 6% for social security, which none of us young people will ever get, plus Medicare ( same ) plus whatever else, you end up with a similar TAX, the only difference is that you have no idea whether a penny from your taxes will be spent on your interests.
In Ukraine income tax is about 10% and people dont pay it as they think the government is stealing all the money anyway. Plus most people do have an underthetable income, so these 10% is nothing.The sales tax is the main income of the government -- it is 20%
In Argentina income tax is practically non-existant as well, sales tax=21%.
Doctors make twice more than the average salary, which is not bad overthere. Medschool is 7 years, which is of course free , starting after the high school, plus residency.

Finally we dont need megabillions to make healthcare affordable to everyone.
1) government expanded schools ;
2) free education/support during schooling;
3) government building hospitals/clinics;
4) tax benefits/dotations for medical equipment/drugs producers;

Just with this you get an affordable healthcare, there's no need for a free one. But I dont see how doctors will make more , than, say, PhDs with this.

THIS SOUND LIKE EUTOPIA.
WHY THE HELL ARE YOU IN AMERICA? WHY EVEN CARE WHAT THE AMERICANS DO?

In America we as doctors know that there is lots of overspending. We also know that our govt. waistes our tax dollars.

No system is perfect. There are many arrogant people in America who think we are perfect. But that is another story.

My question to you is, Why are you so angry at the American system?

If you don't like it, go to Ukraine and enjoy the system there. Why are you waisting your energy arguing with us?

 

[Miami_med]

There are some homeless people. Not too many. Homeless person in Ukraine is a person who doesnt have his home, i.e. pays rent or mortgage.

taxes in Sweden.

till SEK284300== 29 to 34% depending on residence
till SEK 430000 20% more
over 430 000 5% more

Average monthly salary in Sweden by september 2006 is 299 000 per year. So the tax will be between 89650 to SEK104600. Good luck satisfying uncle Sam with that much. And i will repeat, they know what they are paying for. Do you?



You are not serious are you? Ever heard of overpopulation? There are less than 3/4 of an acre of an ok for barley&beets land per each Swede. What, Bangladesh and Taiwan are your ideals for living? Some nations naturally stop overbreeding due to excessive amounts of brains in their heads. ALL European nations, in fact.

Dude,

I hate to tell you that there are more taxes in Sweden than just the income tax. The comparable tax rate is significantly less as a % in the US. This is also completely irrelevant.

Your final paragraph shows a complete lack of comprehension of the function of a socialist system. You NEED young productive people. Many socialist governments are actually paying their people to have kids in order to sustain their populations and provide people to be taxed to pay for more benefits to the non-productive class.

 

[Avrelian]

THIS SOUND LIKE EUTOPIA.

Welcome to the world

My question to you is, Why are you so angry at the American system?

If you don't like it, go to Ukraine and enjoy the system there. Why are you waisting your energy arguing with us?

I am not angry at all. I have a great health/dental insurance, and didnt have any problems so far. And I am not old or poor enough to choose country by its healthcare system. And I am not waisting energy, I'm just having fun seeing hypocrites revealing themselves. Dont get me wrong I dont mind golddiggers in medicine-- as long as they very competent and honest about themselves.

 

[Avrelian]

Dude,

I hate to tell you that there are more taxes in Sweden than just the income tax. The comparable tax rate is significantly less as a % in the US. This is also completely irrelevant.

Your final paragraph shows a complete lack of comprehension of the function of a socialist system. You NEED young productive people. Many socialist governments are actually paying their people to have kids in order to sustain their populations and provide people to be taxed to pay for more benefits to the non-productive class.

Yes but it has nothing to do with growth of population. There are limits for growth, regardless of government's wishes you know? And these limits are different for different people. Some are ok with 30 people per room, some need 1000 sq feet per person. Ukraine lost 5mln inhabitants due to negative growth in the last 15 years. So what ? It is in better shape than ever. People lived better than now, probably only in pre-Gorby time.

 

[Miami_med]

Yes but it has nothing to do with growth of population. There are limits for growth, regardless of government's wishes you know? And these limits are different for different people. Some are ok with 30 people per room, some need 1000 sq feet per person. Ukraine lost 5mln inhabitants due to negative growth in the last 15 years. So what ? It is in better shape than ever. People lived better than now, probably only in pre-Gorby time.

Yes,

People now live better after the fall of communism. This alone should make you question the benefits of government controlled markets and price controls. This is because the benefits of capital development have outweighed the negatives of negative population growth.

 

[Vox Animo]

Whoa. If a country depends on taxation of the young to pay for the care of the elderly, a decrease in population is not a good thing at all as it means that there will be fewer young people supporting more elderly. This is what is happening in Europe. And the decline in birth-rate is not because of some governmental policy (the immigrants seem to be having babies just fine) but more a result of the general malaise and selfishness engendered by chronic socialism.

It is not uncommon, even in the upper classes of the United States, for a family to have three, four, or more children. This is exceedingly rare in Europe where a couple might manage to push out a single child when they get bored of the cradle-to-grave lifestyle. Americans, whatever our faults, are forward thinking and optimistic which is required to make the choice to have a big family. Europeans are not being generally jaded and uninterested in the uncertainty of life, having been conditioned for dependence.

Sweden is not Bangladesh, neither is France or any other European country. It is not a question of "over-breeding" (a despicable term to apply to your fellow human-beings) at all. The Europeans (and the Russians) are not breeding at all to the point that their tired, jaded societies are actively dying out. I believe the birthrate in Europe is only 1.3 per couple. It takes slightly more than 2.0 to even maintain your population.

not to defend any ukranians here, but americans child per couple is only 1.8 for american citizens. its is the 800,000 legal immigratnts that come here a year that bring it up to 2.1, which is replacement. This is a characteristic of all wealthy societies, and has nothing to do with socialism. Hell even augustus complained about it in rome. When people get weathly, or just lower middles class, they tend to have less kids.

 

[Vox Animo]

some stats just to prove im not talking out of my @$$:

http://www.census.gov/population/socdemo/hh-fam/tabST-F1-2000.pdf


These are a measure of the number of families with children under 18. Of the families that had children under 18, the average number of childre ranged from 1.7-1.9. Most in the 1.8ish range.

 

[8744]

Welcome to the world





I am not angry at all. I have a great health/dental insurance, and didnt have any problems so far. And I am not old or poor enough to choose country by its healthcare system. And I am not waisting energy, I'm just having fun seeing hypocrites revealing themselves. Dont get me wrong I dont mind golddiggers in medicine-- as long as they very competent and honest about themselves.

Another totally incomprehensible post. Hypocrisy is the natural condition of mankind but I don't see how anybody here is any more or less hypocritical than anybody else, particulary someone who sings the praises of his native Ukraine, a country to which wild horses couldn't drag him back.

 

[dutchman]

Avrelian is here because of money/freedom, and don't be fooled for one second that he/she gives a rats ass about U.S healthcare. For one thing, over here he can critisize the government/system without worryng about radiation poisoning.

 

[Avrelian]

Yes,

People now live better after the fall of communism. This alone should make you question the benefits of government controlled markets and price controls. This is because the benefits of capital development have outweighed the negatives of negative population growth.

Sorry to disappoint you but its not so. After the fall, It took 10-11 years of disaster to pick up some things. So now after 15 years quality of life is on the level of 1988-89, and there are a long way till it will reach fatty 1965-1985 period.

 

[Avrelian]

Avrelian is here because of money/freedom, and don't be fooled for one second that he/she gives a rats ass about U.S healthcare. For one thing, over here he can critisize the government/system without worryng about radiation poisoning.

There are indeed money to be make here in states. Freedom? I think i am more canadian than you are dutch. Have you been out of US at all?
As for Litvinenko's case, he was killed becouse he knew too much+ betrayed his KGB thing, not becouse he was critisizing Putin. What makes you think CIA would act differently?


And I do give a rats ass about U.S. healthcare . I live here, my family lives here and I find inflated prices unfare.

Finally, if we talk about money, I have enough money to spend the rest of my life ( I am 29 ) fishing, laying on the beach and things like that. Not here , of course, but in Argentina or in Brasil. Do you really think I'd prefer working in states to that? 🙂 So I have other reasons for staying here, but it doesnt matter anyway.

 

[tncekm]

There are indeed money to be make here in states. Freedom?

If you call freedom freedom from worry, or freedom from needing to hold a job and to succeed in life, then you're right--there is none of that "freedom" in the US like there is in socialist countries (although unfortunately the socialism bug has bitten the ignorant and the lazy of this country and we're headed in that direction).

If you're talking about freedom to accomplish anything and everything, right here in the US is the place to be 😉

 

[erichaj]

Are You kidding me????

Since when can someone in a socialist country not work and have a comfortable life. That is the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard.

I've been to those countries. I know people in those countries.

I was being nice but now this guy needs to get his facts right.

Ukraine? Are you kidding.

Listen to what this jerk off is saying. He can retire, he can do everything but he chooses to stay here. RIGHT.

That's like someone saying they don't want another hole in their head buy they will take it for now.

Go back. Go to Brazil or Argentina. Fish..

There is no EUTOPIA. You welcome to the world.

You make it sound like your country and your system is soooo perfect, yet you bless us by living in the US. Don't do us any favors. Please go back. Go help the Brazilians.

We don't want you. get lost.

 

[Avrelian]

If you're talking about freedom to accomplish anything and everything, right here in the US is the place to be 😉

Yes, there are opportunities here. In making money, conducting scientific research, may be something else too. It has nothing to do with freedom though.

Again, with your definition of socialism US is last man standing in this world. If you discount welfare, food stamps, making kids for a living, ets which didnt exist in any socialist country of course. And on top of it is Medicare and alike waiste.

 

[dutchman]

You know, I was just wondering why we are even discussing Ukraine here. If not for this thread I would probably never have used the word "Ukraine" for another 30 years.

 

[Avrelian]

Listen to what this jerk off is saying. He can retire, he can do everything but he chooses to stay here. RIGHT.

That's like someone saying they don't want another hole in their head buy they will take it for now.

Ever heard about such a word- Family ? Type it in Google I am sure links will explain you what that is .

We don't want you. get lost.

I don't know if you will believe me, but I couldn't care less about what you want. Just take my word for it, ok? Dismissed.

 

[Avrelian]

You know, I was just wondering why we are even discussing Ukraine here. If not for this thread I would probably never have used the word "Ukraine" for another 30 years.

You are right Ukraine has nothing to do with it and its my mistake to let it out. We talked about free healthcare initially, and any particularities of any country which has it are irrelevant. So originally I said that it will be always "rich doctors VS affordable healthcare" , and there is no way of having them both. Anyone doesn't think so?

 

[Avrelian]

.

 

[erichaj]

Ever heard about such a word- Family ? Type it in Google I am sure links will explain you what that is .


I don't know if you will believe me, but I couldn't care less about what you want. Just take my word for it, ok? Dismissed.

You care or you would not be in here at all.

You say you are here doing research and working. Well go back to Ukraine and do it.

OH,WAIT, I forgot, you can't. That's why you are here. Because the opportunity is not available where you were.

As far as family goes, no one said you can't have one in Ukraine. In fact if it is such a good place your family should love it there. Why would you deprive them of such a EUTOPIA.

ANSWER: your a jerk off. LOOK THAT UP ON GOOGLE.

 

[dutchman]

You are right Ukraine has nothing to do with it and its my mistake to let it out. We talked about free healthcare initially, and any particularities of any country which has it are irrelevant. So originally I said that it will be always "rich doctors VS affordable healthcare" , and there is no way of having them both. Anyone doesn't think so?

When was the last time you saw a rich doctor? Or is that some kind of immigrant illusion? I hope you are not using Ukrainian standards to term doctors as "rich". There is no such thing as free healthcare. you ****ing pay for it one way or the other, and you know what? Americans actually like the freedom to choose what they pay for, that is why that crap cost the democratic party the house in 1994. If you create civil servant doctors you will get civil servant service just like the type you get at the department of motor vehicles. This is the kind of service you find in lots of these "free healthcare" countries except for the ones that actually decide to pay their healthcare practitioners good money.
BTW there are maybe 2 or 3 countries out there that you can remotely by a long shot compare to the U.S, so stop decieving yourself that some healthcare system that supposedly works in starvationstan will also work here.

 

[Miami_med]

Sorry to disappoint you but its not so. After the fall, It took 10-11 years of disaster to pick up some things. So now after 15 years quality of life is on the level of 1988-89, and there are a long way till it will reach fatty 1965-1985 period.

Your country is doing fine, but you are only at the level of economic underdevelopment of the late 80s!? I give up. Have fun at your Argentinian Beach.🙄

 

[8744]

Your country is doing fine, but you are only at the level of economic underdevelopment of the late 80s!? I give up. Have fun at your Argentinian Beach.🙄

They like the disco dancing!

 

[Avrelian]

There is no such thing as free healthcare. you ****ing pay for it one way or the other, and you know what? Americans actually like the freedom to choose what they pay for, that is why that crap cost the democratic party the house in 1994. If you create civil servant doctors you will get civil servant service just like the type you get at the department of motor vehicles. This is the kind of service you find in lots of these "free healthcare" countries except for the ones that actually decide to pay their healthcare practitioners good money.

I am just coming from a medical appointment as we speak of. My 8-months daughter didnt eat/sleep very well lately, was pulling her ears so we decided
to do the check up think earlier. So, we weight for an hour in the clinic, then 15-20 minutes in the room, the assistent weighted her, didnt measured anything or took the temperature, went away, then doctor comes in, checked her left ear, fine, right ear, I guess there was some wax, so she takes this blue plastic stick , sticks it in the ear , and I hear THE WORST cry my baby ever had. I mean, she doesnt cry much at all. When she has her vaccines she cries may be 1 min ( 4 shots ), may be 1,5. This time she was screaming , not having enough breath for a good 10-12 minutes, then weeping even longer, and I do not exaggerate. There are was some wax, a little piece probably 1mmX4mm of regular consistency.

So the doctor says she needed to see the ear, had to take out the wax, and when she was doing it, not her, or that blue stick, but the wax I repeat, the wax scratched "alittle bit" her ear channel, so now she has to take antibiotics for 5 days and get another visit. And she didnt even look at the injured ear!

I tempted to ask her whether she was one of those Carribean schools graduate , but she was probably 7-8 months pregnant so I decided to spare her of my sarcasm.
Oh well I guess you get what you pay for. What she will charge , 350-400 bucks? It was 370 plus copay with my last insurance. Well at least I got to see an MD for a good 10-15 minutes. At least something.

 

[8744]

I am just coming from a medical appointment as we speak of. My 8-months daughter didnt eat/sleep very well lately, was pulling her ears so we decided
to do the check up think earlier. So, we weight for an hour in the clinic, then 15-20 minutes in the room, the assistent weighted her, didnt measured anything or took the temperature, went away, then doctor comes in, checked her left ear, fine, right ear, I guess there was some wax, so she takes this blue plastic stick , sticks it in the ear , and I hear THE WORST cry my baby ever had. I mean, she doesnt cry much at all. When she has her vaccines she cries may be 1 min ( 4 shots ), may be 1,5. This time she was screaming , not having enough breath for a good 10-12 minutes, then weeping even longer, and I do not exaggerate. There are was some wax, a little piece probably 1mmX4mm of regular consistency.

So the doctor says she needed to see the ear, had to take out the wax, and when she was doing it, not her, or that blue stick, but the wax I repeat, the wax scratched "alittle bit" her ear channel, so now she has to take antibiotics for 5 days and get another visit. And she didnt even look at the injured ear!

I tempted to ask her whether she was one of those Carribean schools graduate , but she was probably 7-8 months pregnant so I decided to spare her of my sarcasm.
Oh well I guess you get what you pay for. What she will charge , 350-400 bucks? It was 370 plus copay with my last insurance. Well at least I got to see an MD for a good 10-15 minutes. At least something.

You are lying. Pediatricians would love to be able to charge (and collect) 400 bucks for an office visit. If that were the case they'd be making millions. They will probably only see sixty dollars for the entire visit.

Oh, and babies cry when you stick needles in 'em. Just FYI.

 

[deleted87716]

 

[Faebinder]

I am just coming from a medical appointment as we speak of. My 8-months daughter didnt eat/sleep very well lately, was pulling her ears so we decided
to do the check up think earlier. So, we weight for an hour in the clinic, then 15-20 minutes in the room, the assistent weighted her, didnt measured anything or took the temperature, went away, then doctor comes in, checked her left ear, fine, right ear, I guess there was some wax, so she takes this blue plastic stick , sticks it in the ear , and I hear THE WORST cry my baby ever had. I mean, she doesnt cry much at all. When she has her vaccines she cries may be 1 min ( 4 shots ), may be 1,5. This time she was screaming , not having enough breath for a good 10-12 minutes, then weeping even longer, and I do not exaggerate. There are was some wax, a little piece probably 1mmX4mm of regular consistency.

So the doctor says she needed to see the ear, had to take out the wax, and when she was doing it, not her, or that blue stick, but the wax I repeat, the wax scratched "alittle bit" her ear channel, so now she has to take antibiotics for 5 days and get another visit. And she didnt even look at the injured ear!

I tempted to ask her whether she was one of those Carribean schools graduate , but she was probably 7-8 months pregnant so I decided to spare her of my sarcasm.
Oh well I guess you get what you pay for. What she will charge , 350-400 bucks? It was 370 plus copay with my last insurance. Well at least I got to see an MD for a good 10-15 minutes. At least something.

Not great with verbal English are we?

Don't criticize a pediatrician before you walk a mile in his/her shoes. Pediatricians end up having to treat the kids and their parents.... As the father, your opinion is already viewed as biased because to you, if the kid even cries a little, you will feel that the pediatrician should be banned from medicine...

Finally, your posts have been weighed and measured and found lacking the capability of attaining a credible criticism without adding self-gratifying truthisms to it which leads me to think you sir are a troll..