Doctors who aren’t Physicians?

Started by HoosierdaddyO
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thegenius said:
By the way, I'm just curious. What do you think the average person thought when they were introduced for the first time to Dr. Vascular Surgeon? They may not have said anything out loud, but I bet the average person probably thought

"Why does that doctor go around asking people to address him as Doctor...at a social cocktail party? What happened in his life to make him so insecure? It's so weird." And then they would forget about it and continue mingling.

My guess is most people who knew him casually didn't address him as "Doctor" the next time they saw him in a social context. I know I wouldn't if we were at a cocktail party and I only knew him casually. Seems weird.

Now I could be wrong. Maybe everyone happily called him "Dr. Vascular Surgeon" all the time.
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He was in fact a jerk, so I hope most people thought he was one. They never let on that they thought he was, sadly enough. Had a long storied academic career.

I also knew an epidemiologist (PhD) that always went by "doctor" when in a crowd of MDs. I just chalked it up to insecurity on his part.

My favorite was a patient's husband that introduced himself to me as "dr. xyz". I proceeded to talk to him like he was an MD in explaining his wife's condition. He looked a little confused during my 3 minute explanation so I figured something was wrong with my management or her dispo. He then told me he was a PhD in English and needed the lay person's explanation. Not sure what the intended outcome he expected here, but I thought it was funny.
 
UrbanEM2 said:
He was in fact a jerk, so I hope most people thought he was one. They never let on that they thought he was, sadly enough. Had a long storied academic career.

I also knew an epidemiologist (PhD) that always went by "doctor" when in a crowd of MDs. I just chalked it up to insecurity on his part.

My favorite was a patient's husband that introduced himself to me as "dr. xyz". I proceeded to talk to him like he was an MD in explaining his wife's condition. He looked a little confused during my 3 minute explanation so I figured something was wrong with my management or her dispo. He then told me he was a PhD in English and needed the lay person's explanation. Not sure what the intended outcome he expected here, but I thought it was funny.
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I had that happen to me once too...a patient or maybe their spouse said they are "Dr. XYZ". And I had a similar conversation.

Now what I do is say "Oh thank you for letting me know! What kind of doctor are you?"

And I've had all sorts of responses. PhD English, Allergist, Pediatrician, Dr. Emeritus, etc.

I do appreciate it, by the way, when a patient notifies me they are a physician. Makes the interaction in general easier although I don't like taking care of doctors overall. My physical exams are always more thorough. 🙂 LOL
 
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I'm not going to rehash the usual comments on using the title in a healthcare or social setting.

I will say that if I was a woman or underrepresented group who earned a title, I'd insist on it being used as well, especially if I was constantly having that conversation in the public spotlight. I've seen too many of my colleagues get talked down to and disrespected by the less educated, the less qualified, and the less hard working. It's easy to play the chill "Bro, Dr. Cactus is my dad's name, call me D" character when people don't constantly doubt your qualifications or intelligence because of your gender or race.
 
DeadCactus said:
I'm not going to rehash the usual comments on using the title in a healthcare or social setting.

I will say that if I was a woman or underrepresented group who earned a title, I'd insist on it being used as well, especially if I was constantly having that conversation in the public spotlight. I've seen too many of my colleagues get talked down to and disrespected by the less educated, the less qualified, and the less hard working. It's easy to play the chill "Bro, Dr. Cactus is my dad's name, call me D" character when people don't constantly doubt your qualifications or intelligence because of your gender or race.
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But, Jill Biden doesn't act in any way that she needs the title. All she does is stand next to the President-Elect. Literally nothing of what I've seen her say has had ANYTHING to do with her academic credentials; the only thing that I've seen is supporting her husband.

Any of the honorary degrees that's she has received came as she was the SLOTUS. None before, and that was when she was the wife of a Senator.

She doesn't need that, as FLOTUS. And the President-Elect has already indicated someone else for Secretary of Education, so, not her.
 
Apollyon said:
But, Jill Biden doesn't act in any way that she needs the title. All she does is stand next to the President-Elect. Literally nothing of what I've seen her say has had ANYTHING to do with her academic credentials; the only thing that I've seen is supporting her husband.

Any of the honorary degrees that's she has received came as she was the SLOTUS. None before, and that was when she was the wife of a Senator.

She doesn't need that, as FLOTUS. And the President-Elect has already indicated someone else for Secretary of Education, so, not her.
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My understanding is she earned a EdD through study and a dissertation so the honorary degrees are not really relevant.

I would argue that as one of the most prominent women in the country, demanding the same respect and courtesy given to men is very much relevant to her role model and leader assuming she puts forward the same energy for other women. The trend to strip women of their accomplishments and portray them as simply an accessory to a man is well described and ongoing.
 
TheComebacKid said:
I don't really buy this idea that non-medical professionals who have doctorates should introduce themselves as "doctor". I had some professors in undergrad who did it. Most didn't and were fine being called by their first name. We can argue that they have "the right" to do it, but doesn't mean it's tasteful. Most of the time I find it cringe worthy. That goes for Jill Biden as well.

I introduce myself as a doctor to my patients. Not because I am "better" or am super smart for going to medical school, or because I have a doctorate. It's because it identifies me to the patient as the person who is leading their care and making medical decisions and guiding treatment. I'm sure there are tons of physicians who identify themselves as doctor because of the ego trip, or have their airline tickets booked as "doctor" so and so, which is pretty obnoxious, and makes them just as bad as everyone else.

We shouldn't be playing along with all of the games that the NPs/PAs etc want us to play, namely that "I have a doctorate so I can introduce myself as doctor" which is purely 100% disingenuous. These arguments, as well as others such as the fact that phrase comes from the latin derivation meaning to "teach" is also BS and just manipulation on the part of others. The vast majority of people who are calling themselves doctor are not doing it for the purposes of informing the patient or the person they are lecturing to, they are doing it to present themselves as "equivalent to a medical physician" or "I'm insecure with myself but you should know I am extremely well accomplished".

If I went to a lecture on an undergrad campus and listened to a sociology lecture from a professor, I would assume they are well educated on the topic. I don't need to know they are a "doctor", and I don't think it really matters. If I see PhD after their name, they are likely an expert in my eyes, and them calling themselves doctor does not lead to any more credibility.

Society has a whole has an understanding of what the term means. Maybe it's been propagated through TV or other cultural avenues, but regardless, people who call themselves doctors who aren't physicians come off to me as being really insecure, when they shouldn't be. They sure as hell know a lot more about a lot of things compared to me.
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Yeah, uhm no. Especially if the term really comes from Latin and PHDs were the first to use it. Apparently it doesn’t as I just learned.
In school, that is their professional setting. In the hospital that is our professional setting.
If you feel that strongly about them not using it, why are you so stuck on you yourself using it in your professional setting?
Getting a real PhD ain’t a joke. They deserve every right to introduce themselves that way in their professional setting.
You make absolutely no sense and are absolutely biased here. Your MD does not trump their PHD.
 
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DeadCactus said:
I'm not going to rehash the usual comments on using the title in a healthcare or social setting.

I will say that if I was a woman or underrepresented group who earned a title, I'd insist on it being used as well, especially if I was constantly having that conversation in the public spotlight. I've seen too many of my colleagues get talked down to and disrespected by the less educated, the less qualified, and the less hard working. It's easy to play the chill "Bro, Dr. Cactus is my dad's name, call me D" character when people don't constantly doubt your qualifications or intelligence because of your gender or race.
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Funny you should say this. I have a semi difficult to pronounce last name. And often enough I get the “can I call you Dr. Choco instead?” and I say, “No you can call me Dr. Mo.” since they can’t apparently pronounce my entire last name of six letters.
Somehow, these same people seem to have no problem practicing and saying the longest Indian and Nigerian last names of my male colleagues. SMH.
 
chocomorsel said:
The person who started this thread. No? And multiple people thereafter.
Or just annoyed?
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Seems more like people just think it’s tacky in a social situation. I don’t see any responses that seem threatened.

chocomorsel said:
Funny you should say this. I have a semi difficult to pronounce last name. And often enough I get the “can I call you Dr. Choco instead?” and I say, “No you can call me Dr. Mo.” since they can’t apparently pronounce my entire last name of six letters.
Somehow, these same people seem to have no problem practicing and saying the longest Indian and Nigerian last names of my male colleagues. SMH.
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Are you implying all those people are sexist or something?
 
chocomorsel said:
I am implying that all those people don’t see me the same as they see my male counterparts with their more even difficult names.
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I’m more intimidated and respectful to the female physicians than the male ones because on occasion you encounter people with your views, true or not.
 
It is suspect this was never discussed until the accusation was leveled at a female PhD. Don't think that can be overlooked really.

I have a relative who is a professor, who despite being tenured at an ivy league university still has students and colleagues call her by her first name even in professional settings. Needless to say no undergrad calls a 50 year old tenured male professor by his first name. She never uses the title socially, but certainly can't blame someone for possibly overcompensating for a gross lack of professional respect.
 
"Dr" is useful in the clinical setting because it identifies the physician, ie: the individual directing care. Outside of that, it really only serves to stratify one from plebes without the honorific. So yeah I think it's lame to go by "Dr _____" in public. That said, I have yet to encounter it "in the wild", only anecdotes online.
 
DeadCactus said:
My understanding is she earned a EdD through study and a dissertation so the honorary degrees are not really relevant.

I would argue that as one of the most prominent women in the country, demanding the same respect and courtesy given to men is very much relevant to her role model and leader assuming she puts forward the same energy for other women. The trend to strip women of their accomplishments and portray them as simply an accessory to a man is well described and ongoing.
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You do know that Henry Kissinger has a Ph.D. from Harvard but no one calls him Dr. Kissinger
 
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Keep in mind, chiropractors, naturopaths and people with honorary degrees are also doctors. At the end of the day, being a "doctor" doesn't mean much, other than the extent to which you love the title, is the extent you went to way too much school for your own good.
 
Are folks similarly bothered that Jordan Peterson's twitter handle is "Dr. Jordan B Peterson"?
 
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Birdstrike said:
Keep in mind, chiropractors, naturopaths and people with honorary degrees are also doctors. At the end of the day, being a "doctor" doesn't mean much, other than the extent to which you love the title, is the extent you went to way too much school for your own good.
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I don't have an issue with people using doctor in the appropriate academic setting. I do take issue with people who use the title to impersonate medical doctors in Healthcare. Chiropractors is a big one, followed by anyone with a BS doctorate in nursing.
 
Fart Daddy Smooth said:
"Dr" is useful in the clinical setting because it identifies the physician, ie: the individual directing care. Outside of that, it really only serves to stratify one from plebes without the honorific. So yeah I think it's lame to go by "Dr _____" in public. That said, I have yet to encounter it "in the wild", only anecdotes online.
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Well, I think it totally depends on the setting. We are acknowledging that it makes sense in the clinical setting because that is where we apply our "doctorate" (of medicine). Meanwhile, I think we should understand that in certain other settings it makes sense for a PhD person to go by "doctor." It speaks to their specialization and expertise in the subject matter.

Also, it depends on what you mean by "in public." I agree with you that it is super lame to introduce yourself as "doctor" at a party or dinner event. Meanwhile, if you are giving a speech or addressing the public in some formal capacity, then yeah going by "doctor" makes sense.

Finally, I think it is simultaneously true that (1) people are hyper-fixating on Jill Biden for the fact that she is (a) a woman and (b) her political affiliation; and (2) it seems that Jill Biden may have in fact gotten the doctorate precisely to be called "doctor," which makes her doctorate a bit suspect.

Both facts can be true. As someone who voted for Joe Biden and hates Trumpism, I want to come to her defense... but, then there seem to be some statements made by Joe himself which make me think Jill's doctorate is somewhat of a fluff degree.
 
DeadCactus said:
I'm not going to rehash the usual comments on using the title in a healthcare or social setting.

I will say that if I was a woman or underrepresented group who earned a title, I'd insist on it being used as well, especially if I was constantly having that conversation in the public spotlight. I've seen too many of my colleagues get talked down to and disrespected by the less educated, the less qualified, and the less hard working. It's easy to play the chill "Bro, Dr. Cactus is my dad's name, call me D" character when people don't constantly doubt your qualifications or intelligence because of your gender or race.
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actually, as a woman with a fairly “ethnic” sounding last name, that sounds like a great way to make myself look like an insecure buffoon. There is a great quote from Game of Thrones (I’m paraphrasing) “any king who must say “because I am the king” is no king at all”.

I usually introduce myself to patients as Dr Medicane because I think it’s important patients know who is actually making the decisions about their care, but other than that I think it’s a little pretentious to lean on the title (and I absolutely judge people who use it in social situations)
 
There are doctors who cram the term "doctor" down everyone's throat, outside of work. And there are patients that insist on calling their doctors by there first name in doctors' offices and hospitals. These two birds of a feather should have to flock together.
 
MediCane2006 said:
actually, as a woman with a fairly “ethnic” sounding last name, that sounds like a great way to make myself look like an insecure buffoon. There is a great quote from Game of Thrones (I’m paraphrasing) “any king who must say “because I am the king” is no king at all”.

I usually introduce myself to patients as Dr Medicane because I think it’s important patients know who is actually making the decisions about their care, but other than that I think it’s a little pretentious to lean on the title (and I absolutely judge people who use it in social situations)
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That's a well known, old saw from the military. A "butter bar" lieutenant (newly commissioned 2nd Lt) has to realize that s/he needs to earn the respect, not "respect me because I'm the lieutenant!!"
 
Does someone have a source on Jill Biden demanding to be called doctor? I mean not in an academic setting because that is understandable. All the things I have seen have been her being torched for having it but I have never seen anything that states she is expecting people to use it outside of academia. So because of that, I have been operating on the assumption that people are crapping on her because people suck. I would love for a source to set me straight.
 
FrkyBgStok said:
Does someone have a source on Jill Biden demanding to be called doctor? I mean not in an academic setting because that is understandable. All the things I have seen have been her being torched for having it but I have never seen anything that states she is expecting people to use it outside of academia. So because of that, I have been operating on the assumption that people are crapping on her because people suck. I would love for a source to set me straight.
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From 2009. Although, for my part, at least, I did write "insists", not "demands", if there is a difference.
 
Apollyon said:

From 2009. Although, for my part, at least, I did write "insists", not "demands", if there is a difference.
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Thanks for posting. I read the article and it appears to be a bunch of other people talking about why or why not to call her Dr. Biden. The closest thing to her insisting on being called "Dr" is in the last line where her spokeswoman said "This week, she encouraged her students to call her Dr. B.”

I still find the hoopla around her title very curious, considering that none concerned seem to mind Jordan Peterson calling himself "Dr. Jordan B Peterson"
 
WilcoWorld said:
Thanks for posting. I read the article and it appears to be a bunch of other people talking about why or why not to call her Dr. Biden. The closest thing to her insisting on being called "Dr" is in the last line where her spokeswoman said "This week, she encouraged her students to call her Dr. B.”

I still find the hoopla around her title very curious, considering that none concerned seem to mind Jordan Peterson calling himself "Dr. Jordan B Peterson"
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Yeah, and literally every local politician I've ever seen who is a doctor or even dentist goes by the "doctor" designation in political campaign ads... I would too in that context.

I only think it is uncouth in the intimate social context, i.e. an informal setting like a dinner party. In any formal public setting, I think most of us would use the designation and are justified in doing so and/or not lame to do so. I think Jill Biden is being targeted because she is a woman and a Democrat. I mean, I've seen my Trumpist friends calling Kamala "the Ho," i.e. "Joe and the Ho." And what they did to Michelle is well known and deplorable...

It's hard not to argue that this is misogyny.
 
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Angry Birds said:
Yeah, and literally every local politician I've ever seen who is a doctor or even dentist goes by the "doctor" designation in political campaign ads... I would too in that context.

I only think it is uncouth in the intimate social context, i.e. an informal setting like a dinner party. In any formal public setting, I think most of us would use the designation and are justified in doing so and/or not lame to do so. I think Jill Biden is being targeted because she is a woman and a Democrat. I mean, I've seen my Trumpist friends calling Kamala "the Ho," i.e. "Joe and the Ho." And what they did to Michelle is well known and deplorable...

It's hard not to argue that this is misogyny.
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You sound like drama royalty. The ONLY reason she is notable is because of her spouse. The only reason she got any honorary degrees was because her husband was VP. She didn't get any when he was "just" a Senator. Is it just inertia that any news source, bar none, that I've seen (like CBS, ABC, and whatever sites to which MSN.com links for stories) calls her "doctor"? That is much more likely that the PR people pushed it. She is academically undistinguished. It strikes me as unseemly that this narrative gets pushed. God forbid there be a medical emergency right near her, and someone says, "You're a doctor!" Will she say, "Call Sen. Bill Frist, or one of the Pauls"?

As was said above, Henry Kissinger, who is an expert, and highly regarded in his field, doesn't insist on being called "doctor". Your conviction that is gender-related seems a little (or almost a lot) over-reaching.

Angela Merkel has a PhD in chemistry, and worked at it. I don't know in what way she is addressed, or if is just "Chancellor" all the time. Likewise, Raisa Gorbachova (Mikhail's wife) had a PhD (but it was in "Communist Theory", and I have yet to determine if it was academically rigorous or objective), and she was only referred to in the Western media as "Mrs. Gorbachov".

But, people that see "X", see "X" everywhere they look.
 
Apollyon said:
You sound like drama royalty. The ONLY reason she is notable is because of her spouse. The only reason she got any honorary degrees was because her husband was VP. She didn't get any when he was "just" a Senator. Is it just inertia that any news source, bar none, that I've seen (like CBS, ABC, and whatever sites to which MSN.com links for stories) calls her "doctor"? That is much more likely that the PR people pushed it. She is academically undistinguished. It strikes me as unseemly that this narrative gets pushed. God forbid there be a medical emergency right near her, and someone says, "You're a doctor!" Will she say, "Call Sen. Bill Frist, or one of the Pauls"?

As was said above, Henry Kissinger, who is an expert, and highly regarded in his field, doesn't insist on being called "doctor". Your conviction that is gender-related seems a little (or almost a lot) over-reaching.

Angela Merkel has a PhD in chemistry, and worked at it. I don't know in what way she is addressed, or if is just "Chancellor" all the time. Likewise, Raisa Gorbachova (Mikhail's wife) had a PhD (but it was in "Communist Theory", and I have yet to determine if it was academically rigorous or objective), and she was only referred to in the Western media as "Mrs. Gorbachov".

But, people that see "X", see "X" everywhere they look.
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Ha! Not sure I'd call any of the three politicians you mention, except maybe Frist, who did respond to an active shooter when he was majority leader. Paul Sr is way too old, and Paul Jr could take care of an ophtho emergency, but not sure of much else. Out of all the politicians in DC, my go to would be Raul Ruiz, one of our own! Probably followed by maybe Ami Bera, but not sure how helpful his IM approach would be in the case of a real emergency.
 
UrbanEM2 said:
Ha! Not sure I'd call any of the three politicians you mention, except maybe Frist, who did respond to an active shooter when he was majority leader. Paul Sr is way too old, and Paul Jr could take care of an ophtho emergency, but not sure of much else. Out of all the politicians in DC, my go to would be Raul Ruiz, one of our own! Probably followed by maybe Ami Bera, but not sure how helpful his IM approach would be in the case of a real emergency.
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Even a psychiatrist is better than nothing. That's not a dig at our psych friends - it's just specialty that gets further away from basic training. Those were just examples off the top of my head.

And I recall a 95 year old heme/onc in good working order when I was in HI.
 
Apollyon said:
You sound like drama royalty. The ONLY reason she is notable is because of her spouse. The only reason she got any honorary degrees was because her husband was VP. She didn't get any when he was "just" a Senator. Is it just inertia that any news source, bar none, that I've seen (like CBS, ABC, and whatever sites to which MSN.com links for stories) calls her "doctor"? That is much more likely that the PR people pushed it. She is academically undistinguished. It strikes me as unseemly that this narrative gets pushed. God forbid there be a medical emergency right near her, and someone says, "You're a doctor!" Will she say, "Call Sen. Bill Frist, or one of the Pauls"?

As was said above, Henry Kissinger, who is an expert, and highly regarded in his field, doesn't insist on being called "doctor". Your conviction that is gender-related seems a little (or almost a lot) over-reaching.

Angela Merkel has a PhD in chemistry, and worked at it. I don't know in what way she is addressed, or if is just "Chancellor" all the time. Likewise, Raisa Gorbachova (Mikhail's wife) had a PhD (but it was in "Communist Theory", and I have yet to determine if it was academically rigorous or objective), and she was only referred to in the Western media as "Mrs. Gorbachov".

But, people that see "X", see "X" everywhere they look.
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Her EdD isn’t honorary.
 
Apollyon said:
Even a psychiatrist is better than nothing.
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Ha! Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

Jokes aside, a psychiatrist is likely better than nothing. Although I once responded to a syncope on a plane and got there after a psychiatrist who urged me to go sit down because he had the situation under control. It was very obviously an UGIB and the person was pale/diaphoretic. The rear of the plane smelled of melena. I stayed nearby. Ended up pushing him aside and putting in an IV. Luckily close to landing.
 
Apollyon said:
I didn't say that. She has something like 7 or 8 honorary degrees, all of which she got 1. after her Ed.D and 2. as Second Lady of the United States. Not before either.
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Dr. Ben Carson proudly displays his title as HUD secretary even though neuro surgery is nowhere near running a government agency. No one complains. FLOTUS is a position within the government with a staff and responsibility. She’s and Kamala are role models for our future. She plans to focus on education as her FLOTUS initiatives. She should be called doctor.
 
I think we can just agree that anyone with an MD or PhD can be called Dr if they so choose in whatever setting they choose. Judge them if you want.

It's not our place to be qualifying the value of someone's PhD. After all, many old school doctors would say EM docs aren't "real doctors" either. I knew some older surgeons who still wouldn't call an ER doctor "Dr. XYZ". Treated us like their residents.
 
DrNotaDr said:
Dr. Ben Carson proudly displays his title as HUD secretary even though neuro surgery is nowhere near running a government agency. No one complains. FLOTUS is a position within the government with a staff and responsibility. She’s and Kamala are role models for our future. She plans to focus on education as her FLOTUS initiatives. She should be called doctor.
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I don't know if that is just you, hanging out in the weeds. Ben Carson was a distinguished, well-known neurosurgeon. He was distinguished in his field. He didn't have the chops for HUD, but that is neither here nor there. You have your torch to carry (DrNotaDr, "Kamala", "she should be called a doctor"), fine. However, you don't seem to see a bigger picture.

And, I can't believe I'm saying this, but, the Ben Carson thing is "whataboutism" (there's a dogmatic loudmouth in another forum who used that term in excess). Do you insist on people calling you "doctor"? I'm an MD, and I don't. There was a nurse (male, older than me, from a rural life) that I encouraged to call me by my first name, and he couldn't - so, the best he could do was call me "Dr. my first name".

I'm not your enemy. I just encourage you to look at things with a wider view. I don't agree with just about anything from @Angry Birds , yet, I read everything he posts. Nothing has changed my mind, yet, but I always consider it.
 
I have many friends who always call me Dr. Firstname. They do it because they still respect the education and training. I never introduce myself that way, but they always call me that anyway. Most are 20-40 yo for reference.
 
Apollyon said:
I don't know if that is just you, hanging out in the weeds. Ben Carson was a distinguished, well-known neurosurgeon. He was distinguished in his field. He didn't have the chops for HUD, but that is neither here nor there. You have your torch to carry (DrNotaDr, "Kamala", "she should be called a doctor"), fine. However, you don't seem to see a bigger picture.

And, I can't believe I'm saying this, but, the Ben Carson thing is "whataboutism" (there's a dogmatic loudmouth in another forum who used that term in excess). Do you insist on people calling you "doctor"? I'm an MD, and I don't. There was a nurse (male, older than me, from a rural life) that I encouraged to call me by my first name, and he couldn't - so, the best he could do was call me "Dr. my first name".

I'm not your enemy. I just encourage you to look at things with a wider view. I don't agree with just about anything from @Angry Birds , yet, I read everything he posts. Nothing has changed my mind, yet, but I always consider it.
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I don’t agree with your view but I like that you’re being down to earth and respectful in your replies. Let me clarify; it’s ridiculous to call Ben Carson Dr. Ben Carson because his doctorate makes him an expert in the diagnosis and treatment of disease, not in running a government agency (which we both know he did poorly) However, a FLOTUS with a doctorate in education who plans to use her position to further the American educational system is an appropriate use of the honorific.
 
DrNotaDr said:
However, a FLOTUS with a doctorate in education who plans to use her position to further the American educational system is an appropriate use of the honorific.
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As Sigmund Freud (or "Sigmund Fraud") said, "In their dreams, all men are great". I just will believe it when I see it. In my life, I don't recall any First Lady efforts that ever moved the needle.
 
Apollyon said:
As Sigmund Freud (or "Sigmund Fraud") said, "In their dreams, all men are great". I just will believe it when I see it. In my life, I don't recall any First Lady efforts that ever moved the needle.
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Likely not in your lifetime, but Edith Wilson practically ran Woodrow Wilson's white house during the year he was ill. They say she was as powerful as he was, if not more.
 
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UrbanEM2 said:
Likely not in your lifetime, but Edith Wilson practically ran Woodrow Wilson's white house during the year he was ill. They say she was as powerful as he was, if not more.
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That is completely true, but, also, that wasn't publicized or known to the general public (like when Grover Cleveland had surgery for a maxillofacial tumor on a boat that went out into the Atlantic just for his sx). In Wilson's second term, the best you would have gotten is the newspaper, or a public appearance. No radio.

And how old do you think I am? I ain't no 100 years old!
 
GeneralVeers said:
Chiropractors are the ones that make me most angry. They have a degree in non-scientific BS, then want people to refer to them as doctors.
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This^. Im a former chiropractor and now an M3. Ive gone through both trainings-chiro has zero right to be referring to themselves as physicians the training of a chiro is a joke compared to a physicians. Chiro school was no walk in the park but med school is just an absolute beast comparatively
 
Deecee2DO said:
This^. Im a former chiropractor and now an M3. Ive gone through both trainings-chiro has zero right to be referring to themselves as physicians the training of a chiro is a joke compared to a physicians. Chiro school was no walk in the park but med school is just an absolute beast comparatively
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I imagine yours is a rather unique perspective - thanks for sharing.
 
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