Does any field in medicine have better hours than EM?

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LoveandHate said:
I'm thinking... NO
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From what I have heard from different professionals and observed, EM docs, on average, do work less hours than other physicians. However, they have less down time, so their hours are less but more exhausting.
 
There is no medical specialty that falls below full time hours by the standards of a normal job. So that's enough hours to hate it if you don't like the nature of the work.

ED hours are not like normal hours. They don't cluster 9-5 M-F and avoid holidays. You're pretty much equally likely to work no matter what time, weekday or weekend, holiday or non-holiday.

And yeah, EM sucks donkey balls. Degenerates, drug seekers.. basically EM is to medicine as Detroit is to America. Don't get me wrong, I respect ER docs.. just not for me.
 
On top of that, don't most EM docs work rotating schedules? It's bad enough to work nights, but when it's not even consistent, that would kill me.

I'd rather work 50 hours/week days than 36 hours/week rotating..
 
FiremedicMike said:
On top of that, don't most EM docs work rotating schedules? It's bad enough to work nights, but when it's not even consistent, that would kill me.

I'd rather work 50 hours/week days than 36 hours/week rotating..
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I think most groups try and put together reasonable schedules but you can easily have nights followed quickly by days. Makes a man cranky.
 
I've pulled multiday 12s, alternating night and days. Your body gets used to it fairly fast.

There's 60 yo old fogies working in the ED. If they can do it easily, most people our age can.

I'll give that the quality of days off is not as good (night shift blows for that).
 
To be honest, primary care seems like it would have the best hours. Family practice, peds or internal med 9a-5p? Work as a hospitalist for 7 days on and 7 days off=26 weeks of vacation a year if you're the work hard, play hard type. Anesthesiology is supposed to be fairly family friendly and surgical subspecialties can be pretty sweet if you can swallow the 5 years of no life during residency. I have a friend whose husband is an ENT and his recommendation is that if you want to do ENT, learn to play golf b/c you'll have a lot of time off. I have an ortho friend who has a pretty sweet 9-5 schedule except for a weekend on call here and there. I think there's lots of places that you can make a nice schedule work...but there's others that you certainly can't.
 
Primary care isn't 9-5. You might have office hours than but to get all the paperwork, dictation, charts, refills, etc done takes significantly longer than 9-5.
 
LoveandHate said:
I'm thinking... NO
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I'm thinking absolutely yes. Outpatient peds, outpatient psychiatry, PM&R, derm, and more than a few others.

You will be working a lot of nights, weekends and at least one major holiday, whereas the above specialties might not work a single one of those.

Your hours are well-defined, and none of your patients need to see you specifically, so you can plan your life in advance around your schedule fairly readily, but the hours are not easy nor are the shifts consistent.

FiremedicMike said:
On top of that, don't most EM docs work rotating schedules? It's bad enough to work nights, but when it's not even consistent, that would kill me.

I'd rather work 50 hours/week days than 36 hours/week rotating..
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If you were willing to work only nights, you might be able to do that, since most people would rather not work nights, but it would be pretty unlikely that you could work only days/PMs. One of our ED docs works a lot more night shifts than the others, and I'm sure it's because he wants to (he's got plenty of seniority).
 
ShyRem said:
Primary care isn't 9-5. You might have office hours than but to get all the paperwork, dictation, charts, refills, etc done takes significantly longer than 9-5.
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It always depends on how busy you want/need to be. I certainly wouldn't tell someone that they could certainly have that lifestyle, but plenty of people do have it.
 
ShyRem said:
Primary care isn't 9-5. You might have office hours than but to get all the paperwork, dictation, charts, refills, etc done takes significantly longer than 9-5.
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It shouldn't take that much longer. When you're a resident, with less experience in the office, then yes, it will. As you get more experienced in the office, and get to know your patient panel better, it goes much faster.

Plus, many attending jobs offer "flex time" or "admin time" during the work week.
 
TheProwler said:
I'm thinking absolutely yes. Outpatient peds, outpatient psychiatry, PM&R, derm, and more than a few others.

You will be working a lot of nights, weekends and at least one major holiday, whereas the above specialties might not work a single one of those.

Your hours are well-defined, and none of your patients need to see you specifically, so you can plan your life in advance around your schedule fairly readily, but the hours are not easy nor are the shifts consistent.


If you were willing to work only nights, you might be able to do that, since most people would rather not work nights, but it would be pretty unlikely that you could work only days/PMs. One of our ED docs works a lot more night shifts than the others, and I'm sure it's because he wants to (he's got plenty of seniority).
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How easy is it to work 6-8 shifts a month in any of the above fields? I guess everyone else has a different definition of good hours... to me good means few :laugh:
 
LoveandHate said:
😕 aren't you a intensivist/critical care doc? One would think your hours are equally as bad.
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My hours are no good that's do sure, at least when I'm on. I didn't make the case for having great hours. 😀

Anything with banking hours, no regular weekends, and little or no real call would be the best hours in my estimation. Derm, ophthal, rads, rad onc, rheum, endo, and allergy.

EM is a nice way to make a living IMHO but not the best hours when you break it down. You take the good with the bad.
 
LoveandHate said:
How easy is it to work 6-8 shifts a month in any of the above fields? I guess everyone else has a different definition of good hours... to me good means few :laugh:
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that's part time 😕. i will be interested to see who is willing to let you work that schedule, even in EM. exactly how much money will you have left after you've paid for everything at the end of the month?
 
smq123 said:
It shouldn't take that much longer. When you're a resident, with less experience in the office, then yes, it will. As you get more experienced in the office, and get to know your patient panel better, it goes much faster.

Plus, many attending jobs offer "flex time" or "admin time" during the work week.
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Yep, its interesting how many will increase increase the anxiety or stress level whether they know it or not..

I agree with you for a doc who practices a decent level of medicine...Primary care is NOT known for being "stress city"..I mean geez if one thinks primary care is "stress city "Id say they should probably rethink the entire medical saga..
Im not saying there is no stress, but Id say its manageable with or without a good staff especially if thats your real calling in life....😕
 
Asp said:
There is no medical specialty that falls below full time hours by the standards of a normal job. So that's enough hours to hate it if you don't like the nature of the work.

ED hours are not like normal hours. They don't cluster 9-5 M-F and avoid holidays. You're pretty much equally likely to work no matter what time, weekday or weekend, holiday or non-holiday.

And yeah, EM sucks donkey balls. Degenerates, drug seekers.. basically EM is to medicine as Detroit is to America. Don't get me wrong, I respect ER docs.. just not for me.
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Agree with the above 100%.

EM is definitely not the "ideal" specialty just because it's not a M-F thing. The hours can stink, whether you get used to them or not.

I like to think of EM as a Family Medicine practice where you have to be in the office for 12 hours at a time, patients don't have to set up an appointment and can simply walk-in, and if they're hostile/drug-seeking/rude/frequent flyers you cannot discharge them from your practice but have to see them each and every time they walk in.

In the end, there's no perfect specialty for everyone. The only perfect specialty is the specialty that fits you the best. If EM is it, then great.
 
I've heard that reproductive endocrinology and pelvic reconstructive surgery can be pretty reasonable hours wise.
 
Asp said:
There is no medical specialty that falls below full time hours by the standards of a normal job. So that's enough hours to hate it if you don't like the nature of the work.

ED hours are not like normal hours. They don't cluster 9-5 M-F and avoid holidays. You're pretty much equally likely to work no matter what time, weekday or weekend, holiday or non-holiday.

And yeah, EM sucks donkey balls. Degenerates, drug seekers.. basically EM is to medicine as Detroit is to America. Don't get me wrong, I respect ER docs.. just not for me.
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:laugh:. I unfortunately concur. On paper EM is a great gig, but I feel in reality. EM has become the sewer or our society. God bless those who wanna do it...
 
psych seems pretty good too based on my rotation. My hours were 9-3 and the residents sometime would get out before I do
 
Psych is out of the question for any red blooded American male. Looked down on, low prestige, okay if you're an IMG or just weird and don't mind the low status stigma.

For women psych is great because it requires so little intellectual effort you can go online shopping for designer clothes during rounds. A classmate of mine personally observed a psych resident presenting a new admit from memory while simultaneously buying a new pair of shoes on her laptop.. was impressive to say the least!
 
Asp said:
Psych is out of the question for any red blooded American male. Looked down on, low prestige, okay if you're an IMG or just weird and don't mind the low status stigma.

For women psych is great because it requires so little intellectual effort you can go online shopping for designer clothes during rounds. A classmate of mine personally observed a psych resident presenting a new admit from memory while simultaneously buying a new pair of shoes on her laptop.. was impressive to say the least!
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Unfortunately, these are my exact thoughts.
 
Doublecortin said:
:laugh:. I unfortunately concur. On paper EM is a great gig, but I feel in reality. EM has become the sewer or our society. God bless those who wanna do it...
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Status: Podiatry Student

Argument: Invalid
 
LoveandHate said:
How easy is it to work 6-8 shifts a month in any of the above fields? I guess everyone else has a different definition of good hours... to me good means few :laugh:
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I don't know anyone working that few shifts in any specialty. My friends were signing contracts for places that required 16 shifts/month.
 
Probably not the best hours.

But if you want to look at the glass half full - you get to travel to work with less rush hour traffic, you can get your car serviced during the day time, you can go to the cleaners before heading to a 4pm shift.

I still think best hours have got to be Derm or something similar - those are REAL lifestyle specialties.
 
I'm going into EM in spite of the hours, not because of them.

Look past residency, which is only a brief time compared to your career.

Constant switching, nights, holidays, etc, can really wear you out.

I like the actual job more than any other and I'm willing to make a tradeoff.

Comparing to something like psych or primary care; other factors need to be considered.
In the current environment, EM pays much more.
Is a better lifestyle 55 hours a week in a primary care clinic or two 12 hour night shifts a week in EM?
Both would probably pay about the same.
Just saying you could work part-time in EM and make a similar living.
 
I think psych is often overlooked as one of the more flexible, livable specialties out there. However, psych isn't for everyone, which is why it isn't the next Derm in terms of competition. Nothing wrong with that.
 
Daedra22 said:
I think psych is often overlooked as one of the more flexible, livable specialties out there. However, psych isn't for everyone, which is why it isn't the next Derm in terms of competition. Nothing wrong with that.
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Yeah I think premeds get too carried away with the total hours and forget that when you are really not enjoying what you are doing a 50 hour week is going to feel like 80, whereas if you are actually enjoying what you are doing a 70 hour week will feel like 40. Most of us further down the road would pick the latter over the former every time for this very reason. Sure we are kicking ourselves for not actually liking something with cushier hours, but wouldn't endure another one of those deadly hour if you paid us double.
 
Law2Doc said:
The premed may still end up equal or < the pod student but that chapter isn't written yet. For now the premed is still on a path that could lead to Med school, the pod isn't.
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I agree with you. However, until that premed gets admission to med school, his/her opinion has no merit when it comes to judging others, especially those who have more academic achievements. Besides, he/she could learn some humility.
 
Asp said:
Psych is out of the question for any red blooded American male. Looked down on, low prestige, okay if you're an IMG or just weird and don't mind the low status stigma.

For women psych is great because it requires so little intellectual effort you can go online shopping for designer clothes during rounds. A classmate of mine personally observed a psych resident presenting a new admit from memory while simultaneously buying a new pair of shoes on her laptop.. was impressive to say the least!
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It's too bad you're perpetuating the misunderstanding of psych. Those that do a good job use a great deal of intellectual capacity and effort. Psych has less hours because it can be more emotionally intensive.

Not to say that there aren't plenty of psychiatrists that give the field a bad name. But it's up to you if you choose to co-opt that mantle or show what a field actually can and should be.

Status is in the eye of the beholder. If you're looking to pick up bimbos at the bars then EM is the way to go. Or I'm sure for you Ortho is your bag. Smart chicks dig psychiatrists.

In fact there is a psychiatrist on SDN who is an ex-marine. But I guess that isn't what you mean when you write "Red blooded American Male." 🙄
 
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nitemagi said:
It's too bad you're perpetuating the misunderstanding of psych. Those that do a good job use a great deal of intellectual capacity and effort. Psych has less hours because it can be more emotionally intensive.

Not to say that there aren't plenty of psychiatrists that give the field a bad name. But it's up to you if you choose to co-opt that mantle or show what a field actually can and should be.

Status is in the eye of the beholder. If you're looking to pick up bimbos at the bars then EM is the way to go. Or I'm sure for you Ortho is your bag. Smart chicks dig psychiatrists.

In fact there is a psychiatrist on SDN who is an ex-marine. But I guess that isn't what you mean when you write "Red blooded American Male." 🙄
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If a navy seal wore a pink leotard that wouldn't make pink leotards manly.
 
If hours were the sole consideration, I wouldn't be going into EM. Sure, it's better than many specialties, and I do like the "no call" part, but a number of specialties have much better hours. Any of the office-based specialties have that possibility, and since the rise of the hospitalist the hours are better in most primary care specialties as well--no nights, no holidays, etc.
 
gravitywave said:
that's part time 😕. i will be interested to see who is willing to let you work that schedule, even in EM. exactly how much money will you have left after you've paid for everything at the end of the month?
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6-8 12 hour shifts a month in EM will net you $100k + per year in most areas of the country. Work hard for a few years to pay of loans, then work less and live frugally.
 
nitemagi said:
So psych=pink leotards?

:laugh:🙄

Nor does the ignorant repeating factually incorrect statements that they've heard from others equally uninformed suddenly make those statements true.
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Dude. I think everyone understands your consternation, even agrees with it, your point is taken. However, none of that changes the fact that psych is not seen as a sexy field right now. The problem is one of perception of the field, not what is true about it. And the battle's been lost before it began.
 
jdh71 said:
Dude. I think everyone understands your consternation, even agrees with it, your point is taken. However, none of that changes the fact that psych is not seen as a sexy field right now. The problem is one of perception of the field, not what is true about it. And the battle's been lost before it began.
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The factual issues relate to lifestyle and intellectual rigor, not to reputation. I actually agree with many factors leading to the poor reputation, including overmedication and medicalization by many. I don't take issue with that. The issue is that med students have a limited period of exposure to psych, and typically rely on their inpt experience and the opinions of those that didn't go into it (and thus have an equally limited amount of time exposure) to judge the reasons for going/not going into it. Like the poster above who thinks "For women psych is great because it requires so little intellectual effort you can go online shopping for designer clothes during rounds." It just perpetuates misinformation and reductionism.
 
jdh71 said:
Dude. I think everyone understands your consternation, even agrees with it, your point is taken. However, none of that changes the fact that psych is not seen as a sexy field right now. The problem is one of perception of the field, not what is true about it. And the battle's been lost before it began.
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These are my thoughts exactly
 
nitemagi said:
So psych=pink leotards?

:laugh:🙄

Nor does the ignorant repeating factually incorrect statements that they've heard from others equally uninformed suddenly make those statements true.
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I was biting my tongue concerning psychiatry..
Because I knew it would perpetuate some crazy and possibly misinformed ideas..

*But seriously there is a great need at this point in time for psychiatrists.
Thats it!
 
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