Does Anyone Breed?

[SugarGliders]

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Hi 🙂 I am brand new here (my first post) and I hope to start my 4 years of pre-vet in May (for summer) at Akron Univeristy. I am a non-trad at 34 years old with kids who are 14 and 11.

Over the past 4 years I have owned a bred sugar gliders. Currently I have 6 sugar gliders that are pet-only and 2 that are pet-breeder. So 8 total 🙂

But over the years I've rescued, I've hand-raised joeys (the youngest being 5 days out of pouch when rejected), I've seen various injuries, and illnesses, studied diet information, studied glider bloodlines and colors, and I'm sure more that I'm not thinking of 🙂

I don't see any threads about breeding, is it something bad to talk about?

I love talking about my suggies!! If anyone wants to see a billion sugar glider pictures let me know 😀

 

[cowgirla]

I actually held my first glider the other day at the pet store in the mall. Cute little thing.

I really don't think my dog would let me get away with having one though. The guy there insisted that he's never heard of a dog chasing it because they don't smell like rodent, but my dog chases anything that's small and fast moving.
She especially likes chipmunks and squirrels. Secondly are rabbits and woodchucks and chickens.

Your opinion?

(Not than I can afford one anyway, but they sure were cute)

 

[SugarGliders]

cowgirla: My dog is scared to death of my suggies. One of my cats is too and the other hasn't had any interaction (he's still a young).

Sugar gliders are really loud when they are mad so, in my experience, they are pretty *scary* to other pets. But, I wouldn't ever let my suggies loose in a room with another loose pet unless it was an accident.

I use bonding pouches that are zipped closed or for my most bonded gliders I let them stay in my shirt. For out of cage fun I let them out loose in the bathroom to run around.

The very first 2 gliders I ever had were rescues and my daughter accidently left the cage open and I had an injured outdoor partly feral cat in my room with the gliders (not my best idea ever) and the girl was killed by the cat. The boy hid. But it can happen.

My cages are flight cages and are 30 inches wide by 18 inches deep and 36 inches high. Each cage has a large (specially made for sugar gliders) wheel, toys, and fleece pouches for sleeping.

Suggies are happier in pairs so if you get one it's a good idea to get a second glider, I'd say within a couple months.

So to answer your question... I wouldn't trust your dog loose in the same room as your suggie, but you can have a perfectly happy suggie without letting it roam around a lot, and so I wouldn't see the not letting it loose around the dog as a huge issue. And if you have a closet or a bathroom you can give dog-free out of cage time in even better 🙂

 

[sumstorm]

I wouldn't say breeding is bad.... there has to be a place for responsible breeders who take continued responsibility for the animals they produce. I think it is a razor sharp line, though, and that so many of us deal with unwanted animals or animals placed in innappropriate home that we get cut my that line enough to make us a bit wary.

I use to breed rabbits, poultry, goats, and sheep. In the zoo, I was responsible for some of our reproductive programs. I have a couple of my dogs from breeders.

I think animal breeding/production can be part of animal experience in your application for vet school. Just measure it with an awareness of pet placement/overpopulation/rescue (all the things good breeders tend to consider.)

 

[SugarGliders]

sumstorm: I absolutely agree 🙂 I breed only the two that I breed because they are both completely tame... they have excellent pedigrees... they are both healthy.

I have gliders who have never been bred due to temperment, health, or pedigree.

My joeys (the ones I don't keep, lol) go to screened homes. Many have gone to the same homes because clients want more babies once they get them home 🙂 Once, only once, did a joey go home and her temperment wasn't compatible with the new owners. I took her back and gave them a full refund and found her a more experienced home with an owner who had several other gliders and the joey did wonderful 🙂

In the event that a glider I sell needs re-homed I will assist in finding a new home and they always can come here for fostering or so I can find them a new home. I won't *keep* every glider who ends up here... but they stay while I evaluate health and temperment and decide what sort of parents they need 🙂

There is a HUGE HUGE overpopulation problem with Sugar Gliders. But most of these gliders are bred in glider mills. They are untame, unhealthy, and they are sold very very young. The mill breeders (a big one is a place called perfect pocket pets) sell these babies with tiny cages and horrible diets and it's really a big problem.

But the people who know better than to buy from a mill and who want a healthy, social baby. Those who don't want to give money to mill breeders need to buy babies from somewhere too. Not everyone can handle a rescue right off. BUT many people who buy those healthy, social babies go on to get a couple rescues because the first gliders helped them be more confident in ownership.

Like you said, it's a fine line for sure. But there is a place for good breeders in the animal world. If only more people did the research befor buying from mills, pet stores, and bad breeders.

My avitar is a picture of my last two babies. I had a boy and a girl. The boy went home today at 10 weeks old and the girl is staying with us to (I hope) be a cagemate with an older female I have who is alone because her mate had cancer. (I had to have him put to sleep).

 

[SugarGliders]

I just wanted to add that I'm not trying to get anyones approval 🙂 I'm perfectly comfortable with what I'm doing. I was just wondering if anyone else bred and why or why not, and how it's looked upon by this community.

 

[ReadyBeVet]

I don't breed, but am interested in this area. My post pertains mainly to dog breeding...

I don't have a problem with breeders that:
1) better the breed and aren't in it for $$
2) screen all animals with CERF, OFA, or Penn Hip, plus a veterinary cardiologist.
3) Are active in the "dog world" (conformation, agility, field trials)
4) Are responsible, and only have a small amount of litters every few years

In the future, I want to have a show quality puppy and do work in conformation. I don't have an interest in breeding my dogs and never will but think that conformation is really fun from a competitive perspective, is a way to bond with your dog, and to make friends with other "dog" people.

 

[Electrophile]

3) Are active in the "dog world" (conformation, agility, field trials)
4) Are responsible, and only have a small amount of litters every few years

In the future, I want to have a show quality puppy and do work in conformation. I don't have an interest in breeding my dogs and never will but think that conformation is really fun from a competitive perspective, is a way to bond with your dog, and to make friends with other "dog" people.

Just keep in mind that dog shows ruin working breeds in both structure and temperament...if you want to improve the breed, agility, Schutzhund or protection sport, field trials, scent work, temperament testing, etc should be as mandatory to ethical breeding as having the get their health certificates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIaM3hYFszc

Back on topic, I breed rats for both pets and humanely raised snake food for my snake. Since most feeder animals at pet stores are not well treated, I wanted to raise rats where I knew they would get excellent care and food and not be crammed 5 or 10 of them in a 10 gallon aquarium.
The boys get a nice 3 level cage and the girls get a 5 level cage and the ones that are culled for snake food are treated exactly the same as the pet quality ones with superior temperament. I started breeding to improve on temperament and health first and foremost, not to the color or ear set or coat type du jour. The pups are handled from birth and they go through pretty extensive observation on who will be future pets or breeding prospects and who are not. I also only breed when I know I have time to monitor the pups and the moms pretty extensively, so my next litter won't be bred until December or so. I've also had a good number of rescue ratties come through the door as well.

 

[sumstorm]

Just keep in mind that dog shows ruin working breeds in both structure and temperament...if you want to improve the breed, agility, Schutzhund or protection sport, field trials, scent work, temperament testing, etc should be as mandatory to ethical breeding as having the get their health certificates.

Electrophile hit on a point I thought as well. Also, some breeders who produce excellent working animals WILL have multiple litters each year (though not from the same bitches) because the need for animals that can physically and mentally meet the demands for some types of work go unmet. Also, there is something to be said for numbers if you are truely changing the animal type; if you have a litter, you may pick the best of that litter, but not the ideal...where as with multiple litters you may be able to find more 'ideal' candidates. Of course, excellent breeders are still incredibly responsible for the animals they produce, both now and in the future.

I am not sure I understand the need for a veterinary cardiologist is nothing is unusual after a standard vet check?

Also, I don't object to excellent breeders making money. I know they don't get rich off it, and it isn't the only thing they do to earn income, but both my pure bred SAR dogs come from excellent breeders who charge handsomly for their animals. I don't care if they make a profit; it was worth it to me to get a sound, solid animal that could perform as expected, and to know, if ANYTHING happens to me, my dogs have a good home to return to with people who will insure that they are only placed with other qualified homes.

 

[Allthingsequine]

I am not sure I understand the need for a veterinary cardiologist is nothing is unusual after a standard vet check?

My parents breed Newfoundlands, and this is an issue about which they are exceptionally passionate. Bottom line: Not all cardiac conditions can be detected in a routine physical exam. Many hearts appear normal when listened to or viewed on a radiograph, but are actually diseased organs. All of our dogs undergo examination via ultrasound by a boarded veterinary cardiologist before they enter our breeding program. Case in point: we brought a pup in from outside lines from a high quality, proven kennel. We still put him through all of the testing we do on all of our dogs (OFA hips, elbows, and patellas, thyroid, cystinuria, and cardiac ultrasound). He passed all with flying colors (including several physicals by our regular veterinarian). Only when the cardiologist examined his heart, we found a congenital cardiac abnormality that no one had expected. He was neutered two weeks later and has become a fantastic pet-quality dog for me.

 

[ReadyBeVet]

Electrophile hit on a point I thought as well. Also, some breeders who produce excellent working animals WILL have multiple litters each year (though not from the same bitches) because the need for animals that can physically and mentally meet the demands for some types of work go unmet. Also, there is something to be said for numbers if you are truely changing the animal type; if you have a litter, you may pick the best of that litter, but not the ideal...where as with multiple litters you may be able to find more 'ideal' candidates. Of course, excellent breeders are still incredibly responsible for the animals they produce, both now and in the future.

I am not sure I understand the need for a veterinary cardiologist is nothing is unusual after a standard vet check?

Also, I don't object to excellent breeders making money. I know they don't get rich off it, and it isn't the only thing they do to earn income, but both my pure bred SAR dogs come from excellent breeders who charge handsomly for their animals. I don't care if they make a profit; it was worth it to me to get a sound, solid animal that could perform as expected, and to know, if ANYTHING happens to me, my dogs have a good home to return to with people who will insure that they are only placed with other qualified homes.

Nor do I object with a great breeder making money. I'm currently looking at a "show" quality pup that will be quite an expensive investment. I have no problem with paying this amount because the parents had all clearances, come for excellent, healthy lines, and have been well-socialized and handled from birth. I do, however; have a problem with backyard breeders that decide to breed their family pet because they can charge $500 for the puppies. The clinic that I work at has a family that chronically breeds their golden retriever to the point that I don't think she ever gets a break. That sweet girl has produced over 15 litters. Sweet thing. The owners love raking in the cash, and have said as much. 👎

 

[SugarGliders]

I don't have any experience with dog breeding so I can't comment really from that perspective.

In sugar gliders the problems are people breeding gliders with no lineage/pedigree. For instance getting two gliders from a pet store or a trade show and letting them breed. They have no idea if they are related.

Also breeding gliders with scared temperments/pouch protective. They teach the joeys to be scared also. Yet many well respected breeders feel this is ok. That it's a challenge to have to *tame* your joey.

Also, some of the glider breeders are breeding leucistic to leucistic together (black eyed white). This is a problem because there are only three bloodlines of leucistic... so you can imagine the cluster of a pedigree these babies have. But such a pairing only produces leucistic so they sell for more money. Then if the person buying chooses to breed back into the leucistic lines... well... you get the idea.

Albinos and Cremenos (T+ and T- albino) are showing a lot of problems in breeding. Many cremeno are dieing young and no one really understands why. Albinos are almost impossible to produce these days.

My male in my breeding pair is a white face 50% possible leucistic het. My female is a standard grey 25% possible leu het. The *possible* het is because they are both bred out from the leucistic lines. The males parents were a 100% het and a non-leucistic line... so his 100% parent had a 50% chance of passing the color gene to him which makes him a 50% possisble leu het.

Ok, I'm sure thats more than any of you wanted to know, lol.

Thanks for the dog posts, I've enjoyed reading and learning from them 🙂

 

[CorporateFatCat]

I am not sure I understand the need for a veterinary cardiologist is nothing is unusual after a standard vet check?

I know TVD (tricuspid valve displacement) can be a common disease in labs and maybe goldens. They have cardiologists rate puppies bred for Guide Dogs for America based on the severity of the disease. I'm quite concerned about the amount of disease and inbreeding the purebred dog community perpetuates...

 

[sumstorm]

My parents breed Newfoundlands, and this is an issue about which they are exceptionally passionate. Bottom line: Not all cardiac conditions can be detected in a routine physical exam. Many hearts appear normal when listened to or viewed on a radiograph, but are actually diseased organs. All of our dogs undergo examination via ultrasound by a boarded veterinary cardiologist before they enter our breeding program. Case in point: we brought a pup in from outside lines from a high quality, proven kennel. We still put him through all of the testing we do on all of our dogs (OFA hips, elbows, and patellas, thyroid, cystinuria, and cardiac ultrasound). He passed all with flying colors (including several physicals by our regular veterinarian). Only when the cardiologist examined his heart, we found a congenital cardiac abnormality that no one had expected. He was neutered two weeks later and has become a fantastic pet-quality dog for me.

So you do this for all your puppies, which is what I thought was being suggested above (by the all animals)? I was required to do some extra stuff with my bitch because her breeder tracks hips (as does the service dog organization that provided the sire) of all offspring, and I could certainly understand for issues within the breed, but honestly, I wouldn't have had my cocker's hips done (my other SAR dog) but he has seen a dermatologist. I would think those kinds of things are breed specific...but maybe that is my ignorance since I am not familiar with every issue in every breed.

I completly understand for breeding stock.... but obviously this didn't change his ability to be an excellent pet. My SAR dogs will never be used for breeding (thank goodness, too much on my plate already) and I had never considered taking my young girl to a cardiologist 'just because.'

 

[sumstorm]

Oh, and I am a big believer that a dog should be able to earn a working title before they can be granted a ch. At minimum a CGC. I think it would do a lot for keeping some level of fitness in the show ring (ie GSD hip issues perpetrated by breeding for a deep slope.)

 

[Allthingsequine]

So you do this for all your puppies, which is what I thought was being suggested above (by the all animals)?

No, just our breeding animals. Sorry, I interpreted "all animals" to mean breeding stock. I agree that it would seem unnecessary to have all puppies examined by a cardiologist unless an exam by the regular veterinarian turned up something suspicious. We did work with another breeder a few years back who had cardiac ultrasounds done on all of her pups before they were homed, but if I remember correctly it was just a quick, prelim screen by her regular veterinarian rather than an extensive exam by a cardiologist.