Does anyone out there actually enjoy TBL?

[TheShaker]

This thread is 80% for me to rant about how much I hate TBL and 20% to see if there are others out there who hate it.

Seriously, I don't understand why schools everywhere are jamming their curriculum chock full of TBL. My school does at least two TBL days every week, totaling to about 6-8 hours in class and even more of preparation. I'm pretty sure my entire class unanimously hates the living hell out of this crap but the school feeds it to us by the spoonful for some unknown reason.

I find TBL to be a waste of time. Having a bunch of unqualified MS1's try to deliberate and teach each other the material turns out to be an unproductive mess. We either unanimously agree on one choice or have half hearted debate only to find out that all of the answers are right or wrong and none of this stuff is even relevant because it's too dumbed down to be practical in real life anyway. Now, I know, there are plenty of grey areas in medicine but this is not helping us learn the material. This entire week my team, and probably a lot of other teams, spent the entire session watching youtube videos, playing around on Reddit, and complaining about the stupidity of TBL via the Facebook group.

What I hate most is that nobody gains anything from this madness. If studying for med school is a full time job, then a TBL session takes away half of your workday during the most productive hours of the day. A TBL session takes away time that I could use to nail down 2-3 lectures. The preparation time itself takes away even more time, making it almost an entire day of studying wasted!

Why are medical schools everywhere so insistent about getting this TBL stuff into their curriculum? Do people out there actually like it? Is it actually helpful to our education or are they just trying to please the LCME?

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[nemo123]

Apparently, the LCME dislikes lectures and asks schools to increase small group/TBL/PBL stuff in their curriculums to make us more miserable than we already are.

 

[AlmostAnMD]

Yeah, it's LCME mandated. ANyone that says they don't have TBL is lying or not going to an accredited school. We all have to suffer through this BS.

Or HAD to anyway HAHAHAHA Done with that crap

You know what they say about it...learn half as much in twice the time.

 

[Ismet]

TBL was absolute torture. Thankfully we only had a small handful of sessions in pre-clinical.

I wasn't a fan of PBL either, but I know a lot of people liked it. I don't know anyone who enjoyed TBL.

 

[PL198]

TBL sounds miserable. Heck I don't even listen to what my professors say a lot of the time, I can't imagine having to listen to my classmates... Way rather obtain my info from more concrete and tested sources.

 

[operaman]

Ours was hit and miss. It all hinges on how good your faculty preceptor is and how motivated and intelligent your classmates are. When those things sync, it's actually pretty good. When they don't, well, you know.

 

[Ismet]

TBL sounds miserable. Heck I don't even listen to what my professors say a lot of the time, I can't imagine having to listen to my classmates... Way rather obtain my info from more concrete and tested sources.

That's not what TBL is, there's not really any student teaching, at least at my school. They usually gave us several journal articles or a couple lectures to learn on our own, then we came together and took an individual quiz on the material, then the same quiz was taken again as a group. Then the professors went through case presentations and asked questions and we had little placards to hold up with our answers. All in all it doesn't sound that horrible, but usually 1) the quiz did not actually quiz us on what we read, and/or 2) the material from TBL was not on the exam. Extremely inefficient when you add up all the prep/study time and the 3-4 hours of time sitting in the TBL session.

PBL is where students teach each other. Also inefficient. But can be useful if you have a good facilitator and a good group.

 

[Porfirio]

Need to justify job on LCME committee? Suggest more TBLs.

 

[circulus vitios]

I hate CBL/TBL. It's a good idea but the realities of its execution are painfully inefficient.

 

[sinombre]

I only have 2 hours of week of PBL, so it's not a time sink. It's definitely not more productive than me studying independently, but it's kind of fun. I would probably be annoyed if I had to do any more than 2 hours per week.

 

[WillburCobb]

PBL is where students teach each other. Also inefficient. But can be useful if you have a good facilitator and a good group.

I honestly really like PCL (its what my school calls PBL) as do a lot of the other students at my school. We have 6 hours of PCL plus a 1 hour case wrap-up with the patient at the end of the week. I do however despise the presentations we have to do. I'm spending 8 - 10 hours a week just working on those. Though I think with time I'll become more efficient. My school has been doing PBL style teaching for about 20 years so maybe they're worked some of the kinks out over time.

 

[Ismet]

I honestly really like PCL (its what my school calls PBL) as do a lot of the other students at my school. We have 6 hours of PCL plus a 1 hour case wrap-up with the patient at the end of the week. I do however despise the presentations we have to do. I'm spending 8 - 10 hours a week just working on those. Though I think with time I'll become more efficient. My school has been doing PBL style teaching for about 20 years so maybe they're worked some of the kinks out over time.

There are definitely people at my school who like PBL. I just find it extremely inefficient. Workshops in MS2 were incredibly more useful, as we actually had the knowledge to work through the cases and answer relevant questions (and didn't have the 2nd wrap up session with presentations).

 

[Mad Jack]

We have a TBL curriculum and honestly its awesome. My team divides up each group of rains for the week into objectives that one of us masters and teaches the others via a weekly shared objective note sheet and during our group study after class. We don't really argue, we get along great, and we have less work to do because each of us isn't having to read everything and watch every recorded lecture.

We do cases three times a week, which takes up like five hours total, and we actually learn a lot by thinking through the problems and explaining what is going on to one another. My school is sort of unique though- their selection process is extremely personality based, so we've got a very awesome mix of friendly people that work well with others. If my group had even one gunner or argumentative/stubborn person, TBL would be the worst thing in the world.

 

[cbrons]

M1 tbl was terribad

 

[PL198]

How do you guys trust each other for these things to work? I'm sorry but I don't buy into the concept of other students looking out for my benefit and I SURELY would not trust that to happen. I specifically have had students in my class do things to cause others to perform worse. These concepts seem *****ic to me as a student isn't going to know what is important nearly as much as an instructor. Not to mention you could have a rainman kid in your group who magically thinks nothing in the lecture is worth covering since it's all "so easy" and then you get nothing or very little.

I'll add that I absolutely have groups that I study with and share resources, but in terms of being assigned randos or even trusting the people in the groups I pick to tell me what is important, no way jose.

 

[TheShaker]

How do you guys trust each other for these things to work? I'm sorry but I don't buy into the concept of other students looking out for my benefit and I SURELY would not trust that to happen. I specifically have had students in my class do things to cause others to perform worse. These concepts seem *****ic to me as a student isn't going to know what is important nearly as much as an instructor. Not to mention you could have a rainman kid in your group who magically thinks nothing in the lecture is worth covering since it's all "so easy" and then you get nothing or very little.

I'll add that I absolutely have groups that I study with and share resources, but in terms of being assigned randos or even trusting the people in the groups I pick to tell me what is important, no way jose.

This is one of my gripes as well. It's not that I don't trust my teammates and think that they are bad people, it's just that many of us don't have that strong of a grasp on the material and I can't just take whatever my peers say at face value. I have to cross reference, but at that point I might as well be studying independently.

 

[PL198]

This is one of my gripes as well. It's not that I don't trust my teammates and think that they are bad people, it's just that many of us don't have that strong of a grasp on the material and I can't just take whatever my peers say at face value. I have to cross reference, but at that point I might as well be studying independently.

Exactly. traditional lecturers have studied the field for a while and make your exams so they know what's important. I don't want some random person's opinion about what is or isn't important. Heck sometimes I make mistakes on things like that on my own, so I'm never going to want to rely on someone else's.

 

[Rirruto]

I found anything-based learning to be a gimmick, and often the sessions with peer teaching would be worse than neutral: opportunity cost of lost highly productive independent study time and potential for increased confusion from the other students' explanations.

 

[WillburCobb]

How do you guys trust each other for these things to work? I'm sorry but I don't buy into the concept of other students looking out for my benefit and I SURELY would not trust that to happen. I specifically have had students in my class do things to cause others to perform worse. These concepts seem *****ic to me as a student isn't going to know what is important nearly as much as an instructor. Not to mention you could have a rainman kid in your group who magically thinks nothing in the lecture is worth covering since it's all "so easy" and then you get nothing or very little.

I'm only speaking on my experience at my school, but I feel that PBL isn't about teaching each other specific material (that's more of gimmick/way to sell it to students) but rather to teach you to think logically, know when to HONESTLY recognize and admit to an actual and significant knowledge deficit and how to adequately remediate it, and how to communicate effectively and efficiently. Our PCL exams are separate from lecture exams and are graded more heavily on logically defending your argument behind your answers and how you got there. Plus we get faculty learning objectives at the end of each case so if you really think someone dropped the ball you can double check, which really isn't that much time or effort.

Edit - I will add that a quality facilitator can make a WORLD of difference.

 

[PL198]

I'm only speaking on my experience at my school, but I feel that PBL isn't about teaching each other specific material (that's more of gimmick/way to sell it to students) but rather to teach you to think logically, know when to HONESTLY recognize and admit to an actual and significant knowledge deficit and how to adequately remediate it, and how to communicate effectively and efficiently. Our PCL exams are separate from lecture exams and are graded more heavily on logically defending your argument behind your answers and how you got there. Plus we get faculty learning objectives at the end of each case so if you really think someone dropped the ball you can double check, which really isn't that much time or effort.

Edit - I will add that a quality facilitator can make a WORLD of difference.

The underlined part is what I call exam performance. If I get bad grades, I know either I'm not addressing questions correctly, or that I lack knowledge. I don't see how getting into groups changes this. The objectives do take some of the concern about personal opinion out of play though.

 

[WillburCobb]

The underlined part is what I call exam performance. If I get bad grades, I know either I'm not addressing questions correctly, or that I lack knowledge. I don't see how getting into groups changes this. The objectives do take some of the concern about personal opinion out of play though.

There's much more to thinking logically and admitting an actual deficit in knowledge than test performance. The former of these is the biggest objectives of PBL (which is why its used in disciplines other than medicine as a method of teaching).

 

[PL198]

There's much more to thinking logically and admitting an actual deficit in knowledge than test performance. The former of these is the biggest objectives of PBL (which is why its used in disciplines other than medicine as a method of teaching).

I mean I'm not one of those people that bases their entire self worth on academic performance, but I still don't see what you mean.

 

[WillburCobb]

I mean I'm not one of those people that bases their entire self worth on academic performance, but I still don't see what you mean.

It's about teaching to you do more than spit out rote facts. For example, rather than "I'm presented with A so that means I do B" "I'm presented with A and I could do B, C, or G, and here's why I would and would not do B, C, or G. Based on this I'll do C and this is why C would be better than B or G to address A and why B, G would be a less appropriate way to address A."

 

[PL198]

It's about teaching to you do more than spit out rote facts. For example, rather than "I'm presented with A so that means I do B" "I'm presented with A and I could do B, C, or G, and here's why I would and would not do B, C, or G. Based on this I'll do C and this is why C would be better than B or G to address A and why B, G would be a less appropriate way to address A."

I don't see how that isn't possible for exams as well. Some people might regurgitate, yet I'm not sure how that's explicitly assumed by my posts. I'm big on the details and go through a similar process to what you said. It's possible to answer multiple choice questions logically and not just cry to yourself if you don't remember the exact factoid addressed by the question.

 

[WillburCobb]

I don't see how that isn't possible for exams as well. Some people might regurgitate, yet I'm not sure how that's explicitly assumed by my posts. I'm big on the details and go through a similar process to what you said. It's possible to answer multiple choice questions logically and not just cry to yourself if you don't remember the exact factoid addressed by the question.

It's about being able to communicate that logically if asked to state why and being able to defend that argument logically if challenged. As I mentioned in a previous post, lecture and lab content are tested separately from PCL content at my school, and the key to making it through PCL is being able to logically defend your answers more so than arrive at the correct one. Again I'll mention that my school has been doing PBL for much longer than the vast majority of medical schools that take this approach, so its likely that they've worked out some of the kinks that so many people dislike about it. Based on what I've read on SDN and through talking with students at other schools I've gotten the impression that PBL at my school is vastly different than at others, and I get the impression that many schools just give it lip service and make a half-assed attempt at implementing it.

 

[PL198]

It's about being able to communicate that logically if asked to state why and being able to defend that argument logically if challenged. As I mentioned in a previous post, lecture and lab content are tested separately from PCL content at my school, and the key to making it through PCL is being able to logically defend your answers more so than arrive at the correct one. Again I'll mention that my school has been doing PBL for much longer than the vast majority of medical schools that take this approach, so its likely that they've worked out some of the kinks that so many people dislike about it. Based on what I've read on SDN and through talking with students at other schools I've gotten the impression that PBL at my school is vastly different than at others, and I get the impression that many schools just give it lip service and make a half-assed attempt at implementing it.

I don't see how what you're advocating is mutually exclusive to PCL though. I can communicate and logically defend my answer, just as much as someone that learned it from their friends can.

 

[WillburCobb]

I don't see how what you're advocating is mutually exclusive to PCL though. I can communicate and logically defend my answer, just as much as someone that learned it from their friends can.

You're focusing on the learning from others gimmick of PBL which is just that, a gimmick. It's about developing the ability to logically reason, discuss, and argue ways to solve some sort of problem with others; which is done much more effectively and efficiently in a small group. I will also add that the quality of the facilitator and the group (the latter to a somewhat lesser extent) can have a huge impact on the quality of this style of learning.

 

[Serous Demilune]

It's about teaching to you do more than spit out rote facts. For example, rather than "I'm presented with A so that means I do B" "I'm presented with A and I could do B, C, or G, and here's why I would and would not do B, C, or G. Based on this I'll do C and this is why C would be better than B or G to address A and why B, G would be a less appropriate way to address A."

Yes but everyone can do this. People on here like to think they're special because "understand the material and don't just memorize it." Everyone who gets into medical school is capable of understanding every concept in Step 1 based medicine. Nobody actually goes in and says "I'm gonna rote memorize the **** out of this entire curriculum." We all understand subtlety, layers of complexity, cause and effect, relationships between physiological systems, etc. If we couldn't get that, none of us would have made it through orgo.
PBL is a load of horse****, and I resent every minute of it. I am continually amazed at how medical schools are able to get away with putting their students through these infantilizing games.

 

[VisionaryTics]

PBL/TBL is inmates running the asylum. Horrible platform for learning in medicine. No idea why LCME is cramming it down everybody's throats and why pre-allo is so in love with it.

 

[DermViser]

This thread is 80% for me to rant about how much I hate TBL and 20% to see if there are others out there who hate it.

Seriously, I don't understand why schools everywhere are jamming their curriculum chock full of TBL. My school does at least two TBL days every week, totaling to about 6-8 hours in class and even more of preparation. I'm pretty sure my entire class unanimously hates the living hell out of this crap but the school feeds it to us by the spoonful for some unknown reason.

I find TBL to be a waste of time. Having a bunch of unqualified MS1's try to deliberate and teach each other the material turns out to be an unproductive mess. We either unanimously agree on one choice or have half hearted debate only to find out that all of the answers are right or wrong and none of this stuff is even relevant because it's too dumbed down to be practical in real life anyway. Now, I know, there are plenty of grey areas in medicine but this is not helping us learn the material. This entire week my team, and probably a lot of other teams, spent the entire session watching youtube videos, playing around on Reddit, and complaining about the stupidity of TBL via the Facebook group.

What I hate most is that nobody gains anything from this madness. If studying for med school is a full time job, then a TBL session takes away half of your workday during the most productive hours of the day. A TBL session takes away time that I could use to nail down 2-3 lectures. The preparation time itself takes away even more time, making it almost an entire day of studying wasted!

Why are medical schools everywhere so insistent about getting this TBL stuff into their curriculum? Do people out there actually like it? Is it actually helpful to our education or are they just trying to please the LCME?

I believe it's an LCME requirement. UT San Antonio was put on probation because their first 2 years relied to much on lecture didactics. Not all schools rely on PBL/TBL to the same degree though. Thank God.

 

[DermViser]

TBL was absolute torture. Thankfully we only had a small handful of sessions in pre-clinical.

I wasn't a fan of PBL either, but I know a lot of people liked it. I don't know anyone who enjoyed TBL.

PBL is TBL.

 

[Ismet]

PBL is TBL.

No it's not.

 

[DermViser]

No it's not.

Yes it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem-based_learning

 

[Ismet]

Yes it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem-based_learning

Google team based learning. It involves something called an IRAT and a GRAT.

Do you seriously think I'm making up the fact that we do both PBL and TBL at my school and that they are different and separate sessions?

 

[DermViser]

Google team based learning. It involves something called an IRAT and a GRAT.

Do you seriously think I'm making up the fact that we do both PBL and TBL at my school and that they are different and separate sessions?

See the wiki article. The pic is a PBL group.

 

[Ismet]

See the wiki article. The pic is a PBL group.

That's because the article is titled "problem based learning." I'm not sure if you're trolling or if you seriously use Wikipedia as a reliable source to defend your position.

Seriously, google team based learning.

 

[DermViser]

That's because the article is titled "problem based learning." I'm not sure if you're trolling or if you seriously use Wikipedia as a reliable source to defend your position.

Seriously, google team based learning.

Yes, and if you noticed that PBL group is a TEAM.

 

[Ismet]

Yes, and if you noticed that PBL group is a TEAM.

That doesn't mean it's "TBL." Stop trolling.

 

[WillburCobb]

They are indeed two different methods of teaching with different underlying philosophies. My school uses both and they are fairly different from each other.

 

[DermViser]

That doesn't mean it's "TBL." Stop trolling.

I'm not trolling.

 

[Psai]

No it's not.

It's the same crap. I don't understand why schools charge the tuition that they do if they're going to be having you teach yourself as if we don't do enough of that already

 

[PL198]

It's the same crap. I don't understand why schools charge the tuition that they do if they're going to be having you teach yourself as if we don't do enough of that already

Saw my PCP today, talked to her about how I don't go to lecture and she had an M3 with her that said he and majority of his class was the same way. She asked what our tuition goes for then, and tbh I don't really know.

 

[DermViser]

It's the same crap. I don't understand why schools charge the tuition that they do if they're going to be having you teach yourself as if we don't do enough of that already

 

[DermViser]

Saw my PCP today, talked to her about how I don't go to lecture and she had an M3 with her that said he and majority of his class was the same way. She asked what our tuition goes for then, and tbh I don't really know.

Administrators and overall budgets.

 

[circulus vitios]

Are TBL (IRAT/GRAT) and CBL the same thing, as far as this thread is concerned? I don't mind TBL but CBL can suck a fat one.

 

[Ismet]

Are TBL (IRAT/GRAT) and CBL the same thing, as far as this thread is concerned? I don't mind TBL but CBL can suck a fat one.

I've never heard of CBL and a quick search yielded both challenge-based learning and community-based learning. What do you do in a CBL session?

 

[circulus vitios]

I've never heard of CBL and a quick search yielded both challenge-based learning and community-based learning. What do you do in a CBL session?

Case based learning. We get simple cases and we have to go through them and answer questions as a group.

 

[WillburCobb]

Case based learning. We get simple cases and we have to go through them and answer questions as a group.

That's PBL. My school calls it PCL - patient centered learning. 1st year it's PBL, which the majority of students here enjoy. Second year it's still called PCL but it's TBL based instead. Most students don't care for this as much, as this is where lazy group members can really hurt your grades.

 

[circulus vitios]

That's PBL.

Oh. Well, **** PBL.

 

[Ismet]

Case based learning. We get simple cases and we have to go through them and answer questions as a group.

Yep that's PBL (problem based learning) at my school.

Idk why I find TBL so much less palatable. I think it's the IRAT/GRAT...I don't really see the point.