Does class rank count for anything?

[DimaDrill]

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I am a first year DO student at DMU and I've been hearing from some second years that grades in medical school are really not that important. I want to get into a good residency later on, and I heard that they pretty much look at how well you scored on your boards and how well you did during your clinical rotations. Is all this basically true?

 

[Taus]

its probably fair to say that if you slack during the first two years you are less likely to rock the boards then the student who busted his/her a$$ and learned everything cold during that time....also if you are going for a crazy competitive specialty like derm, plastics, optho, ortho, etc....you don't want to have ANY deficiencies on your transcript

as you can see...its not a black and white issue....just do as well as you can the first few years without going totally insane and/or becoming a complete hermit...

 

[gagolden]

YES, I think, and have heard from a couple of PD that it is a consideration on interview invites. It goes into your Deans letter.

 

[(nicedream)]

Keep in mind that 3rd year is part of your classrank - 1/3 of it to be exact.

 

[doctor07]

You will often hear (especially in DO schools) that scores and class rank don't really matter. You may also get fed the line that you don't need to necessarily rotate where you want to match. That is fine if you want to go into primary care. If you are trying to get into ortho or other highly selective specialties, good luck if you aren't top of your game. Many residencies such as this also flat out will not even grant you an interview if you don't rotate at their site. Remember, most DO schools encourage students to become primary care physicians, so that is why you will likely hear that.

 

[jrf331]

Don't fall into that ****, that rank doesn't matter. Work your ass off during the first year and become the physician you would want for your family. I found that most people who said that GPA/Rank/Board scores didn't matter were the ones that didn't put the time and effort into studying, and you will most likely see the same. And you will never hear the top 20% of the class say that stuff. Those are the first things resedencies see, they don't see that you have a good personality.

And don't let anyone give you the excuse that you are "just" doing FP. FP's need to know their stuff. They are the front line of medicine.

So work hard, med school is tuff and it is supposed to be that way.

 

[DMAKSIMOVIC]

Keep in mind that 3rd year is part of your classrank - 1/3 of it to be exact.

Sucks for you.....I think depending on people outside of your school....ie...physicians.....are too subjective when it comes to grading. If you get one bad month with a doctor, that basically ruins your grade for the year. I've rotated with students who have had this happen to them....and they freak out and enjoy the rotation less.

DMU has a pass/fail basis for all of our rotations and the majority of our 3rd year rotations end with an exam.....which has no bearing on our class rank.

As far as the class rank argument goes......It's true that if you work your ass off 1st and second year you will do better.......I for one did not work nearly as hard as I should have.....but oh well. I never had my sights set on an uber competitive field. I did mediocre on boards, which again was probably a reflection on the way I handled years one and two, but again....non competitive field....FP to be exact.

 

[DMAKSIMOVIC]

I found that most people who said that GPA/Rank/Board scores didn't matter were the ones that didn't put the time and effort into studying, and you will most likely see the same.

Of those three.....board scores are probably looked at more than Rank or GPA...for several reasons. First...GPA and Rank are kind of subjective to your school....and very few residencies look at them. Yes they're on the Dean's letter and yes they're numbers.....but not the numbers most programs look at. Secondly, board scores are universal.....it's a level playing field for all programs to compare candidates, regardless of their training. Lastly I'd say rotation letters are much more important than grades/rank. A great letter of recommendation is extremely important regardless of the field you choose.

 

[FutureNavyDOc]

Of those three.....board scores are probably looked at more than Rank or GPA...for several reasons. First...GPA and Rank are kind of subjective to your school....and very few residencies look at them. Yes they're on the Dean's letter and yes they're numbers.....but not the numbers most programs look at. Secondly, board scores are universal.....it's a level playing field for all programs to compare candidates, regardless of their training. Lastly I'd say rotation letters are much more important than grades/rank. A great letter of recommendation is extremely important regardless of the field you choose.

I would also add that having done a rotation at the site of your intended residency and busting your arse while there is potentially even more important than grades and boards score.

 

[DMAKSIMOVIC]

I would also add that having done a rotation at the site of your intended residency and busting your arse while there is potentially even more important than grades and boards score.

True....but it can be hard to juggle all of your rotations to fit where you want to go....especially if you have to rotate at predesignated areas for Core. That's why if you can get letters from other program directors, lack of exposure to a site doesn't hurt you as much. UNLESS you're doing something extremely difficult to get into.....then it behooves you to get into that site for a rotation no matter what it takes.

 

[the1doc]

I am a first year DO student at DMU and I've been hearing from some second years that grades in medical school are really not that important. I want to get into a good residency later on, and I heard that they pretty much look at how well you scored on your boards and how well you did during your clinical rotations. Is all this basically true?

Students who don't do well academically tend to perpetuate that falsehood. It's BS.

Of course grades in medical school are important. If you study more during your first and second years, you are more likely to do well on boards. It is very unlikely that you can screw around for two years, barely pass your tests, and then ace the boards. Your grades and class rank are also reflective of your work ethic and commitment. It's also a myth that students who do well on tests won't do well in a clinical setting. There are many students who have excellent social skills and excellent grades.

The mediocre students who end up in the most competitive residencies are the exception, not the norm.

 

[Stimulate]

For residency application a good class rank will likely be mentioned in your Dean's Letter, and at most medical schools you can request to your Dean that this information be included. However, I think that board scores are much more important particularly USMLE Step1 if you are applying for competitive ACGME residencies.

I am in my last year at a competitive ACGME anesthesia residency, and having just applied for a competitive fellowship, I can say that several application forms asked for class rank (if available). Nobody commented on it during my interviews though.

There are quite a few medical schools now that are going pass/fail so I would imagine that emphasis on board scores will only increase and class rank may fall by the wayside.

 

[Taus]

For residency application a good class rank will likely be mentioned in your Dean's Letter, and at most medical schools you can request to your Dean that this information be included. However, I think that board scores are much more important particularly USMLE Step1 if you are applying for competitive ACGME residencies.

I am in my last year at a competitive ACGME anesthesia residency, and having just applied for a competitive fellowship, I can say that several application forms asked for class rank (if available). Nobody commented on it during my interviews though.

There are quite a few medical schools now that are going pass/fail so I would imagine that emphasis on board scores will only increase and class rank may fall by the wayside.

you're right on the money about how much they matter...and about the pass/fail schools....most of those schools still keep tabs on your rank and don't report it numerically...they just use certain adjectives to describe your grades in your deans letter that are consistant w/ class rank

 

[Bill_Brasky]

Strange posts. The question was does class rank matter? And some people respond by saying that unless your class rank is high you will do horrible on the boards and suck at life. Bullsh*t. The question is about how important class rank is so what is the answer to that? It seems to me that some people who were anal about grades might be sweating the boards a little. Although I haven't taken the boards yet, I know alot of people in my class who are just doing enough in class to get their personal average, while studying for the boards already. The point it, that listening to everyone on this forum and residency forums, as well as personally talking to a couple of neurosurgery residency directors at our recent hostpital day, they all say the same thing: Class rank matters, but not that much. If you want to get noticed, ROCK OUT YOUR BOARDS!!!

Bill Brasky

 

[Taus]

Strange posts. The question was does class rank matter? And some people respond by saying that unless your class rank is high you will do horrible on the boards and suck at life. Bullsh*t. The question is about how important class rank is so what is the answer to that? It seems to me that some people who were anal about grades might be sweating the boards a little. Although I haven't taken the boards yet, I know alot of people in my class who are just doing enough in class to get their personal average, while studying for the boards already. The point it, that listening to everyone on this forum and residency forums, as well as personally talking to a couple of neurosurgery residency directors at our recent hostpital day, they all say the same thing: Class rank matters, but not that much. If you want to get noticed, ROCK OUT YOUR BOARDS!!!

Bill Brasky

agreed...but especially for 2nd year students where Path is a huge component of your curriculum....learning it right the first time around IS studying for the boards....if you do that plus annotate any relevant review book sections (takes <5 mins a day).....there's no reason you can't rock your classes and be well prepared to crush the boards

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Taus is free to speak for me from now on - because thats exactly what I would have said.

 

[Ifellinapothole]

See, I'll tell you why i think class rank is not wholly but to a large part bull****.

At my school, NYCOM, some professors use the same questions on exams year after year. If you make the effort, know people from past classes and get your hands on these exams you automatically have 10-20 questions per exam you know ahead of time.

But if you really can't be bothered kissing ass and looking for these exams well you are at a disadvantage. I really don't like wasting my time trying to get these old exams.

So, that is why I feel that the Boards are the great equalizer. They let you, PD's and everyone know if you have been doing well in school because of hard work and a little extra help or just hard work.

I would trust the boards a lot more than class rank if I were a residency director.

 

[Taus]

See, I'll tell you why i think class rank is not wholly but to a large part bull****.

At my school, NYCOM, some professors use the same questions on exams year after year. If you make the effort, know people from past classes and get your hands on these exams you automatically have 10-20 questions per exam you know ahead of time.

But if you really can't be bothered kissing ass and looking for these exams well you are at a disadvantage. I really don't like wasting my time trying to get these old exams.

So, that is why I feel that the Boards are the great equalizer. They let you, PD's and everyone know if you have been doing well in school because of hard work and a little extra help or just hard work.

I would trust the boards a lot more than class rank if I were a residency director.

thats a heaping pile of bs that certain students in your class w/ access to those tests don't make em available to the entire class....

 

[Ifellinapothole]

thats a heaping pile of bs that certain students in your class w/ access to those tests don't make em available to the entire class....

how can you be so sure dip****, do you go to NYCOM? You have to go around asking people for the exams and not everyone has each exam..

please stick to comments about PCOM, which I assume is where you go since it says Philly under your name.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

how can you be so sure dip****, do you go to NYCOM? You have to go around asking people for the exams and not everyone has each exam..

please stick to comments about PCOM, which I assume is where you go since it says Philly under your name.

Take it easy, Nadine.


Reread what he wrote. Hes talking about your classmates.

 

[Luba Licious]

how can you be so sure dip****, do you go to NYCOM? You have to go around asking people for the exams and not everyone has each exam..

please stick to comments about PCOM, which I assume is where you go since it says Philly under your name.

Ouch! I think he was saying that it's BS that your classmates won't "share". Not that you're lying. But good for you anyway for taking the high road...cheating is entirely too prevalent in med school, which is a sad thought. People are so stressed that they have no integrity left.

 

[Taus]

Am I missing something here?....I just said its bull that the classmates who get access to the tests don't freely pass them on to the rest of the class...thats getting near the definition of a gunner....

 

[Ifellinapothole]

Am I missing something here?....I just said its bull that the classmates who get access to the tests don't freely pass them on to the rest of the class...thats getting near the definition of a gunner....

my bad, i thought you were calling me a liar and that all the old tests are freely passed around.

This wouldn't be an issue if the school had a policy of not letting professors resubmit old TQ's.

You may be saying I sound anal and should just check out the old tests, but 1) i really can't be bothered often making the effort. I work 20 hours a week and rarely show up to class 2) aren't you kind of selling yourself short and cheating yourself of the opportunity of a mini stress situation for the boards when taking your school's exams? I mean you won't know any questions ahead of time on the boards.

This is why class rank if over-rated. That is all i am saying.

 

[Taus]

my bad, i thought you were calling me a liar and that all the old tests are freely passed around.

This wouldn't be an issue if the school had a policy of not letting professors resubmit old TQ's.

You may be saying I sound anal and should just check out the old tests, but 1) i really can't be bothered often making the effort. I work 20 hours a week and rarely show up to class 2) aren't you kind of selling yourself short and cheating yourself of the opportunity of a mini stress situation for the boards when taking your school's exams? I mean you won't know any questions ahead of time on the boards.

This is why class rank if over-rated. That is all i am saying.

no problem.....

anyway....here's what I do...I consider it to be the best of both worlds (ie rock the test and know your stuff for the boards):

Spend the entire unit, up to 2 days before the test, to learn the material on your own, annotate the board review books and do real board-style questions to see if you really know your material (ie Robbins Qbank, webpath, katzung pharm q's, etc). Spend the 2 days immediately before the test working on the old exams to see what the profs like to focus on and boost yourself (imo) 15+ points on the schools test.

 

[JonnyG]

The one nice thing about class rank is for personal reward. It is hard to go all out test after test and not know where it puts you. PCOM is very secretive with our ranks and only gives us quintiles. Every exam we get an average but no standard deviation. In effect you have no clue what your grade means. They gave us our quintiles recently and it was nice to know what my grades have meant and gave renewed motivation.

 

[Dr JPH]

I havent read anything of the above...too much to filter through.

In my experience with residency programs, class rank matters in 2 cases:

1. If you are at the very top

OR

2. If you are at the very bottom


Middle 80% likely doenst matter so much.

Just my $0.02

 

[Taus]

The one nice thing about class rank is for personal reward. It is hard to go all out test after test and not know where it puts you. PCOM is very secretive with our ranks and only gives us quintiles. Every exam we get an average but no standard deviation. In effect you have no clue what your grade means. They gave us our quintiles recently and it was nice to know what my grades have meant and gave renewed motivation.

my motivation comes from when I go through all the questions in sources like robbins review, qbook, webpath, etc and realize that I actually know my $hit...

 

[JonnyG]

my motivation comes from when I go through all the questions in sources like robbins review, qbook, webpath, etc and realize that I actually know my $hit...

that works too

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

CCOM doesnt even give us the average of a test.

 

[Cowboy DO]

This is why class rank if over-rated. That is all i am saying.

Over rated or not, its still a factor PD's use in assesing candidates.

Also for arguments sake (im really not trying to start something, im just bored) lets assume there are 15 tq's are repeated per test. On a 150 question test thats 10%. (I'm also being pretty generous, in my experience at nycom there were never this many repeats.) Factor in also that board scores and 3rd year clinical evaluations are used to determine class rank, and we could pretty conservatively say that you might be able to improve your rank by only about 7% (had you used tq's every time and never forgot one answer). 7% is hardly a jaw dropping move in either direction and probably of little significance unless your hovering around the 50% mark.

 

[sether52do]

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

The way the COMLEX is written is in such a manner that studying board review books doesn't help. I am a firm believer in the fact that if you study hard and do well during your didactic years, you will do well on the COMLEX.

Now, USMLE, that's a different story, at least coming from a DO education...

 

[Dr JPH]

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

The way the COMLEX is written is in such a manner that studying board review books doesn't help. I am a firm believer in the fact that if you study hard and do well during your didactic years, you will do well on the COMLEX.

Now, USMLE, that's a different story, at least coming from a DO education...

I did better on USMiLE than COMpLEX

I think the USMLE is a better exam

 

[Ifellinapothole]

Over rated or not, its still a factor PD's use in assesing candidates.

Also for arguments sake (im really not trying to start something, im just bored) lets assume there are 15 tq's are repeated per test. On a 150 question test thats 10%. (I'm also being pretty generous, in my experience at nycom there were never this many repeats.) Factor in also that board scores and 3rd year clinical evaluations are used to determine class rank, and we could pretty conservatively say that you might be able to improve your rank by only about 7% (had you used tq's every time and never forgot one answer). 7% is hardly a jaw dropping move in either direction and probably of little significance unless your hovering around the 50% mark.

things have changed since you were at NYCOM. The tests now are a maximum of 100 questions- often as few as 49.

So you can see that access to 15-20 questions/ test does affect class rank....

 

[sether52do]

I did better on USMiLE than COMpLEX

I think the USMLE is a better exam

Agreed.

Agreed.

 

[cremaster2007]

I agree with Dmak above. Different programs look at different things, but most of the places/programs I've been for any specialty all say the same things. Board scores help, class rank/grades show what you can do consistently over a period of time, but the most deciding factor is how well you fit in with that program. The super-competitive specialties like Ortho, Optho, Derm may be a little different, but a big majority of your future is based on if the program likes you and you aren't a dick. Now that said it is always beneficial to do well in school and on boards making you the ideal applicant. I had spurts of studying hard my first two years followed by some heavy slacking and still did well. I wouldn't probably change anything looking back because I had fun and feel I learned what I needed to. Ask me again in a few weeks after interviews and I'll let you know if I changed my mind

 

[Jamers]

I agree with Dmak above. Different programs look at different things, but most of the places/programs I've been for any specialty all say the same things. Board scores help, class rank/grades show what you can do consistently over a period of time, but the most deciding factor is how well you fit in with that program. The super-competitive specialties like Ortho, Optho, Derm may be a little different, but a big majority of your future is based on if the program likes you and you aren't a dick. Now that said it is always beneficial to do well in school and on boards making you the ideal applicant. I had spurts of studying hard my first two years followed by some heavy slacking and still did well. I wouldn't probably change anything looking back because I had fun and feel I learned what I needed to. Ask me again in a few weeks after interviews and I'll let you know if I changed my mind

I read as much of this as I could and, being a lowly first year here at DMU, I have no real say about class rank but I do have a question. Since the general vote seems to be that it is important, what rank should one be aiming for? I thought getting into the top 25% of the class was the goal and found that getting there is easier than staying there hahaa. Either my class is really intelligent or our exams are uber easy because, a lot of the exams will have a mean of near 90 with the first SDV putting it at 95 or so. I know I haven't scored above a 95 on every exam, I am human, I have let some dead ducks fly here and there. I was told that to get into the field that I have been looking at (ER) I should aim for the top half of the class. Any opinions on class rank and speciality?

 

[cremaster2007]

my 4th year dmu class was competitive as well. I have roughly a 90% gpa average and I'm not even in the top 50 of my class. Most programs like you to be in the top half. The more competitive the higher they would LIKE to see you for instance neurosurgery likes top 25% or higher, Optho I heard top 10%, Derm you basically need to be #1 and have research. ER is getting to be much more competitive, but I think if you are around the top half, have better than average board scores, and rotate through and show them you are hard working you won't have a problem.