Does class rank really matter???

[RamblinRose]

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I am a first year student and I wanted to know if class rank matters and how it gets factored into getting into residencies. I have heard lots of conflicting information, some say grades are important while others stress that grades mean nothing compared to board scores and how you do on audition rotations. As of now I am in the top half of my class, should I push myself to be top quartile?? Is it worth it?? My interests are in IM and EM allopathic or osteopathic residences in CA.

 

[ChiDO]

From what I have been told, the overall picture (including grades/rank/ect) are all taken into consideration.

Also, I would say it's fair to assume, that if you have good grades and a high GPA, that you will have a high class rank. You probably work hard; thus you will probably work hard and score well on the boards and also do well in your rotations.

Do the best you can, because in the end, you do not want to look back and say, "Mna, only if I worked a little harder during X,Y, and Z rotation/class, maybe I would have gotten residency X or Y."

 

[HopefulDoc1984]

From what I have been told, the overall picture (including grades/rank/ect) are all taken into consideration.

Also, I would say it's fair to assume, that if you have good grades and a high GPA, that you will have a high class rank. You probably work hard; thus you will probably work hard and score well on the boards and also do well in your rotations.

Do the best you can, because in the end, you do not want to look back and say, "Mna, only if I worked a little harder during X,Y, and Z rotation/class, maybe I would have gotten residency X or Y."

I agree. I dont see why people even ask this question. Do your best and see where it leads you. I hate it when people tell me that your grades dont matter as much as another component. Just work hard at everything and you will probably get what you want. And if you dont, then you wont wonder if you could have.

 

[Psychopathology]

Let's ask the residency program directors:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty.pdf



The short answer is that everything counts.

Long answer: at my school, your academic performance over the first two years is summarized in a paragraph on the dean's letter. If you have done exceptionally well, it will read well. If you have done less than well, it still won't sound so bad. The programs will see that you have honored, high passed or passed your classes. That said, much more attention will be devoted to your third year clerkship grades and even to your narrative assessments. While some people do very well for themselves in the match having performed less than stellar in their preclinical courses, there are a number of reasons to work hard in those first, couple of years.

- You might discover a hidden interest or talent in one of the sciences (histology, anatomy, pharmacology, etc) that leads you down the path to an unsuspected career decision.

- You will have an easier time preparing for Step I when the time comes.

- You will have an easier time understanding some of clinical medicine, although I agree that some of what is taught in the preclinical curriculum stays in the preclinical curriculum.

- You help your grade point average, class rank, and chance of being elected to an honor society. The stronger the reputation of your medical school, the less this will matter provided that you are smart, hard working, and interview well.

- You will feel happier and more confident with yourself when you learn the material and perform well on exams.


And there are a number of reasons to not-kill-yourself in the first couple of years.

- Your third year grades at many institutions are weighed much more heavily than your preclinical grades in determining your class rank.

- Your grades in individual classes are less important than your Step I score (in the sense of getting interviews and matching).

- You could use the extra time to have a life or pursue research interests. Research and research-like activities will help you make valuable career decisions and let the residency selection committees know that you are serious about your chosen field. If you do not care for research, then you can take time to explore the fields that interest you.

- P=MD, 7O=DO... depending on where you want to live after medical school and into which specialty you would like to match, you may not have to look like a future Nobel Laureate on your residency application.

- Your friends, family, classmates, body, mood, and (if you believe) soul will thank you for not being a gunner.





Do what you decide. The only piece of advice I'm qualified to provide a first year is that you should keep an open mind.

 

[scdocusc]

class rank, boards, rotations and recommendations are NOT mutually exclusive. If you are 3 in your class then you are probably a "balla" and will have other great things falling in place. Yes..... I said balla.

 

[surag]

P=MD, 7O=DO

what does that mean?

 

[ChiDO]

P=MD, 7O=DO

what does that mean?

There are schools out there that are Pass/Fail grading system (more MD then DO). Therefore, if you Pass all your classes you will get an MD degree no matter if you are ranked #1 or #200 in your class; thus P=MD.

P is usually 70% and most DO schools still use an A-F grading system, which if you think about is usually the same thing as Honors (A)/High Pass (B)/Pass(C)/Fail system.

Thus, as with the P=MD, 70%=DO.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

It matters some. People ranked higher than me didn't match into the specialty they wanted which happened to be the specialty I matched.

 

[bigDinLV]

It does matter... if you are number 5 of 100 that is good, if you are 95 of 100 that is not so good. The difference between being number 5 and number 7, or number 90 and 95, probably doesn't matter.

The upper quartile will probably let you be competetive, as long as everything else falls into place where it should.

 

[scdocusc]

people who are ranked higher tend to get that attitude that if they are ranked high in their class then they'll get into Radiology. You have to be realistic sometimes. If you are #1 in your class and got a decent COMLEX score then your chances are ok but if you suck as a person and your recs are bad then you are SOL. the key to getting the residency you want is being realistic. As long as you can realize "hey I'm not as smart as I thought" then you'll be just fine.

 

[TheBlueBlazer]

I'm pretty sure we're not ranked, and I don't think we're the only ones, so I don't see how it can matter all that much. In all, though, better grades usually = better board scores, more knowledgeable student = better reccs, more impressive applicant.

 

[NontradICUdoc]

I'm pretty sure we're not ranked, and I don't think we're the only ones, so I don't see how it can matter all that much. In all, though, better grades usually = better board scores, more knowledgeable student = better reccs, more impressive applicant.

you are correct. We do not have a class rank, and we do not have a GPA. THe administration feels it fosters more of an academic environment among your fellow colleagues when you work together and help each other out than if you were competing with each other.

 

[Van Chowder]

I agree. I dont see why people even ask this question. Do your best and see where it leads you. I hate it when people tell me that your grades dont matter as much as another component. Just work hard at everything and you will probably get what you want. And if you dont, then you wont wonder if you could have.

What? What is there not to understand... Yes the op COULD do as good as he/she wants and consequently most certainly will not of any reminisce of a social, or the op can do just enough and still like a semi-normal life outside of medical school...

 

[Jamers]

From what I have been told, the overall picture (including grades/rank/ect) are all taken into consideration.

Also, I would say it's fair to assume, that if you have good grades and a high GPA, that you will have a high class rank. You probably work hard; thus you will probably work hard and score well on the boards and also do well in your rotations.

Do the best you can, because in the end, you do not want to look back and say, "Mna, only if I worked a little harder during X,Y, and Z rotation/class, maybe I would have gotten residency X or Y."

Anecdotal information, I know, but the one psych rotation I was on the doc found out the other student on the rotation with me was in the top 5% of the class and responded with, "Don't worry, I will talk slower." Apparently, he found, through his 15 years of teaching students, that the top students in the class consistently performed poorly on the rotation. His reasoning behind this was that they either thought they knew everything already or that they got lost in too many details.

That aside I would respond to the OP to do as best as you can. I am not at the top of my class but I don't think I would go back and change anything. I liked being able to go out and get away from the books every weekend or so. You will also find out that, no matter how much you study, you will STILL forget things.

 

[bigDinLV]

Anecdotal information, I know, but the one psych rotation I was on the doc found out the other student on the rotation with me was in the top 5% of the class and responded with, "Don't worry, I will talk slower." Apparently, he found, through his 15 years of teaching students, that the top students in the class consistently performed poorly on the rotation. His reasoning behind this was that they either thought they knew everything already or that they got lost in too many details.

That aside I would respond to the OP to do as best as you can. I am not at the top of my class but I don't think I would go back and change anything. I liked being able to go out and get away from the books every weekend or so. You will also find out that, no matter how much you study, you will STILL forget things.

I've noticed that the people that are brilliant in the class room are quite often socially challenged, perhaps even common sense challenged. I can totally see how something like psych could be difficult for them. You might have to actually understand how someone else feels or thinks, that isn't a biochem pathway.

 

[kristing]

Please also remember that we all can't be above average. This is not Lake Wobegone. Someone has to be at the bottom, someone has to be at the top.

And if your interests are really in EM and IM, you will be competitive around the 50th %ile.

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

I am a first year student and I wanted to know if class rank matters and how it gets factored into getting into residencies. I have heard lots of conflicting information, some say grades are important while others stress that grades mean nothing compared to board scores and how you do on audition rotations. As of now I am in the top half of my class, should I push myself to be top quartile?? Is it worth it?? My interests are in IM and EM allopathic or osteopathic residences in CA.

Yes, it is worth it. Why? Because when a program director and staff are sitting down doing their rank lists and there are 50 people that are of your academic equal, the little things can bump you up on a list. In the end, everything is important....so the more you excel in each area, the better off you will be on a rank list.

 

[HopefulDoc1984]

Yes, it is worth it. Why? Because when a program director and staff are sitting down doing their rank lists and there are 50 people that are of your academic equal, the little things can bump you up on a list. In the end, everything is important....so the more you excel in each area, the better off you will be on a rank list.

everything will count in one way or another. if you want a more competitive spot then its better to have more than less. if you IM and dont care where you live then you could be last in your class and barely pass the boards and still get a spot somewhere. but someone with those motives, i question their ability to be a good physician.

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

everything will count in one way or another. if you want a more competitive spot then its better to have more than less. if you IM and dont care where you live then you could be last in your class and barely pass the boards and still get a spot somewhere. but someone with those motives, i question their ability to be a good physician.

Since when is competitiveness a motive for bad doctoring? It sounds like the OP wants to do good in school (and who doesn't) to make him/her a better candidate, but that doesn't mean that they are going to be a jerk in the process. Not everyone that wants to excel to land a good residency should have their ability questioned, otherwise everyone on this website would be a sketchy future doctor according to you. From the OPs post, it sounds like he/she doesn't want to "just" pass their boards, and who the heck wants to be last in their class? OP, do what YOU feel is your limit, you asked if it was worth it, but only you can answer that because you know what your goals are and what you want to acheive.

 

[HopefulDoc1984]

Since when is competitiveness a motive for bad doctoring? It sounds like the OP wants to do good in school (and who doesn't) to make him/her a better candidate, but that doesn't mean that they are going to be a jerk in the process. Not everyone that wants to excel to land a good residency should have their ability questioned, otherwise everyone on this website would be a sketchy future doctor according to you. From the OPs post, it sounds like he/she doesn't want to "just" pass their boards, and who the heck wants to be last in their class? OP, do what YOU feel is your limit, you asked if it was worth it, but only you can answer that because you know what your goals are and what you want to acheive.

i think you may have misunderstood what i was attempting to say. or i poorly worded it. what i meant was that if you dont care where you live then you could be last in your class and still get a residency spot somewhere. i am top in my class and see people who have this goal. they just want to slack off and land where ever they can. these are the people who make poor doctors.

 

[It'sElectric]

Are people seriously no longer using proper grammar or God forbid, capital letters?

 

[stonewall22]

people who are ranked higher tend to get that attitude that if they are ranked high in their class then they'll get into Radiology. You have to be realistic sometimes. If you are #1 in your class and got a decent COMLEX score then your chances are ok but if you suck as a person and your recs are bad then you are SOL. the key to getting the residency you want is being realistic. As long as you can realize "hey I'm not as smart as I thought" then you'll be just fine.

I haven't started school yet, but seriously, being realistic does NOTHING to help you get a residency. I agree it's important to be realistic though.

 

[stonewall22]

Please also remember that we all can't be above average. This is not Lake Wobegone. Someone has to be at the bottom, someone has to be at the top.

And if your interests are really in EM and IM, you will be competitive around the 50th %ile.

I think the bigger problem is that in medical school everybody is above average, probably used to being near the top, and probably use to succeeding and getting what they want academically. So in medical school it's gets a little rough when everybody is just as good or better.

 

[Jamers]

I think the bigger problem is that in medical school everybody is above average, probably used to being near the top, and probably use to succeeding and getting what they want academically. So in medical school it's gets a little rough when everybody is just as good or better.

Exactly, you go from being the big fish in a small pond to a small fish in a big pond really quick.

 

[TUCAnSam]

If you are applying to ACGME residency programs, class rank takes on more importance than you realize. Many PDs know nothing about your osteopathic school's curriculum or strength of clinical rotations. An "A" vs a "high-pass" may mean nothing, but being in your classes top 10% does mean something. How you fare amongst your peers tells the program about you and how you'd perform regardless of the grading system used.

 

[travis]

IMHO, boards matter 10X more than class rank, maybe more. 🙂

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

IMHO, boards matter 10X more than class rank, maybe more. 🙂

Sure yeah. I can guarantee you the people that are in the bottom 10% of their class don't score in the top 10% of the boards though.

Class rank may in and of itself does not matter. Its a logical conclusion to make though that the people with the higher class rank do better in class and thus better on boards.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Sure yeah. I can guarantee you the people that are in the bottom 10% of their class don't score in the top 10% of the boards though.

Class rank may in and of itself does not matter. Its a logical conclusion to make though that the people with the higher class rank do better in class and thus better on boards.

Ha, I guess I'm f****d.

 

[wingbowlchamp3]

i keep hearing how much residency programs look at clinical grades...but what would be considered a successful third year gradewise?

it seems completely unreasonable to expect all honors passes given how subjective the evaluations are. i've had at least three rotations where i spent very little time with the attending and they basically just passed me and moved on. i honored cardio. and fm and got high passes in two other rotations.

so basically...my grades have been across the board...and i have no idea if that's good. the worst part is i feel like i could've taken the month off or lived at the hospital and my grade would've been the same either way. while it's obvious that clinical education is important...i think it's crazy to make high vs. honors vs. regular pass one of the most weighted criteria for picking applicants.