Does medical school ranking really matter?

[ChiDO]

Prestige only matters if you want your career to be in the ivory towers. 90% of the rest of practices/hospitals/employers/partners/patients don't care.

I know a handful of highly published, ivory tower pedigree surgeons that I wouldn't let operate on me or my family members.

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[Browns99]

Prestige only matters if you want your career to be in the ivory towers. 90% of the rest of practices/hospitals/employers/partners/patients don't care.

I know a handful of highly published, ivory tower pedigree surgeons that I wouldn't let operate on me or my family members.

Kind of missed the point...OP was referring to whether prestige matters when it comes to pursuing a competitive speciality as in getting accepted into residency and the answer to that is, it MAY help coming from a "top ranked" or what is considered a "prestigious" school, to say otherwise is simply not true. You are talking post residency, that's not what the OP was referring to.

Of course, having attended the "ivory towers" does not mean you have become a great surgeon as you note, but that could be said for anyone, regardless of school pedigree.

 

[Dogruffle01]

If you go to a t20, you can forget about AOA since most of them don't have it anyway. If you go to a lower-tier school, I think AOA is still important.

Sadly NYU isn’t following that trend 😭😭

 

[doyouhaveaflag]

See I assume you mean with all other attributes equal. I’d hope you aren’t choosing a Harvard candidate with a 206 step score over a UTMB candidate with a 249 step.

I do not actually mean with all other attributes equal. I've never personally seen anyone interviewed in plastics with a 206, but more allowances for things like being fourth quartile and lower step scores are made for those from fancier schools in the rank meetings I've been involved in.

I don't know exactly how the interview selection process goes because I've never been involved in that, but I know with my previous program director a point system was assigned to different applicant attributes and they included things like step scores, AOA, and school prestige. Interviews were granted based on this point system, but I don't know how much school prestige was weighted vs other attributes.

Anecdotally, I did not attend a fancy med school and when I compared my interview offers with those from fancy schools on the interview trail and compared other things like step scores and number of publications, I often compared favorably in terms of scores and pubs but didn't have nearly the number of interview offers that they had, nor did I get many interviews at plastics programs considered to be top twenty. And I was told my letters and personal statement were great, so I think part of that may be attributed to my school's prestige. I actually think my med school was great and I got excellent training there that prepared me well for residency. I don't think the name of the school should matter to people, but at least in plastic surgery, it clearly does.

 

[oldman]

Go to the school that matches the highest prestige for the lowest cost. In a P/F world, you might need more things to make you a favorable applicant. Unless you have a Harvard, UCSF, or Hopkins in your options. I can't speak to that level of prestige since I did not get an interview at either one when I applied some 4 years back. That said, I also would not pick a USNews T15-20 over a T30-50 (...or whatever) with a full ride. But that's just me. Academics does not pay as well and you'll be straddled with that debt for a long time.

Edited to add: People in community practice are much less likely to GAF about the prestige of your medical school compared to your efficiency and whether or not you're a good partner to work with.

In the working world it's definitely most important what you can do versus where you came from. I care little for someone who may have come from somewhere famous, but can't be bothered to come in the middle of night to take care of a patient. I want someone who is committed to providing the best care for their patients around me and that's who I send my patients to when I need to setup another consultant.

 

[Lawpy]

In the working world it's definitely most important what you can do versus where you came from. I care little for someone who may have come from somewhere famous, but can't be bothered to come in the middle of night to take care of a patient. I want someone who is committed to providing the best care for their patients around me and that's who I send my patients to when I need to setup another consultant.

This can apply to anyone though, including those from low tiers.

While people may not care about the school name when it comes to actually working as an attending, school name matters for residency apps.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Rankings are clearly important for determining residency/specialty options to some extent. However medicine is unique in that rankings are more of a hurdle than a locked gate. Look at any US MD school and there will be matches to competitive specialties. Whereas, you may look at a corporate law office’s website and not see a single person from a law school outside of T13. The same applies to business for the most part. Somebody coming from a low tier MBA program doesn’t have a chance of landing certain roles without internal connections. In contrast, a medical student from almost any MD school can match relatively competitive specialties, aside from maybe dermatology and plastics.

 

[Hzreio]

Rankings are clearly important for determining residency/specialty options to some extent. However medicine is unique in that rankings are more of a hurdle than a locked gate. Look at any US MD school and there will be matches to competitive specialties. Whereas, you may look at a corporate law office’s website and not see a single person from a law school outside of T13. The same applies to business for the most part. Somebody coming from a low tier MBA program doesn’t have a chance of landing certain roles without internal connections. In contrast, a medical student from almost any MD school can match relatively competitive specialties, aside from maybe dermatology and plastics.

The thing about this topic is that it’s all speculation. All we can know for sure is that it lands somewhere between “it has no impact whatsoever” and “it is the sole factor that determines residency placement”. There’s also NMRP data that puts med school rank below roughly a dozen other factor.

But besides that’s there’s nothing to determine that it’s “clearly important” for residency placement. And to say that certain MD students can’t match derm or plastics is pretty absurd too… you do realize 50-60% of DO students who apply derm match?

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

The thing about this topic is that it’s all speculation. All we can know for sure is that it lands somewhere between “it has no impact whatsoever” and “it is the sole factor that determines residency placement”. There’s also NMRP data that puts med school rank below roughly a dozen other factor.

But besides that’s there’s nothing to determine that it’s “clearly important” for residency placement. And to say that certain MD students can’t match derm or plastics is pretty absurd too… you do realize 50-60% of DO students who apply derm match?

Sorry I only referred those two because they’re usually the only ones that sometimes I don’t see on some match lists. Other specialties it seems like almost all schools send at least a few months people to each.

 

[Slack3r]

The thing about this topic is that it’s all speculation. All we can know for sure is that it lands somewhere between “it has no impact whatsoever” and “it is the sole factor that determines residency placement”. There’s also NMRP data that puts med school rank below roughly a dozen other factor.

But besides that’s there’s nothing to determine that it’s “clearly important” for residency placement. And to say that certain MD students can’t match derm or plastics is pretty absurd too… you do realize 50-60% of DO students who apply derm match?

Ya, to DO derm residencies. There’s only a handful of DOs across all the MD derm residencies combined. I understand your point, but that number is misleading.

 

[GB4ME]

I do not actually mean with all other attributes equal. I've never personally seen anyone interviewed in plastics with a 206, but more allowances for things like being fourth quartile and lower step scores are made for those from fancier schools in the rank meetings I've been involved in.

I don't know exactly how the interview selection process goes because I've never been involved in that, but I know with my previous program director a point system was assigned to different applicant attributes and they included things like step scores, AOA, and school prestige. Interviews were granted based on this point system, but I don't know how much school prestige was weighted vs other attributes.

Anecdotally, I did not attend a fancy med school and when I compared my interview offers with those from fancy schools on the interview trail and compared other things like step scores and number of publications, I often compared favorably in terms of scores and pubs but didn't have nearly the number of interview offers that they had, nor did I get many interviews at plastics programs considered to be top twenty. And I was told my letters and personal statement were great, so I think part of that may be attributed to my school's prestige. I actually think my med school was great and I got excellent training there that prepared me well for residency. I don't think the name of the school should matter to people, but at least in plastic surgery, it clearly does.

I mean I realize people wouldn’t interview with plastics with a 206. I was being somewhat facetious. My point was more so that there are far more open residencies Than students in top 20 schools. It may be matching plastics in Louisiana State but you’d still be plastics. Another example is neurosurgery. I don’t recall if it’s still there but they had a residency in Buffalo NY. Probably easier to match there than Harvard but you’d still be a NS. However Buffalo is not fun in winter when you have to dig your car out of a 10 feet tall snow drift. So some might might want to go there.

 

[someonerandom]

I mean I realize people wouldn’t interview with plastics with a 206. I was being somewhat facetious. My point was more so that there are far more open residencies Than students in top 20 schools. It may be matching plastics in Louisiana State but you’d still be plastics. Another example is neurosurgery. I don’t recall if it’s still there but they had a residency in Buffalo NY. Probably easier to match there than Harvard but you’d still be a NS. However Buffalo is not fun in winter when you have to dig your car out of a 10 feet tall snow drift. So some might might want to go there.

I feel like if you are applying to neurosurgery, you should feel lucky if you match at all, regardless of if it's Buffalo or Louisiana. I'm sure those are still extremely difficult to get into since when applying to nsg/plastics, most don't have the luxury of picking their geographic preference. I could be wrong though since what do I know 🤷‍♂️

 

[SurfingDoctor]

Its not so much the school, but people with multiple degrees (MD/PhD, MD/MBA, etc.) generally are looked on more favorably than those who didn't. Having additional degrees always sets a person apart from those who don't (which most don't).

This in turn, opens more doors, leads to more opportunities, is more advantageous in a competitive market, etc. This is also outside of the scope of practicing medicine, which generates RVUs and that's about it. To many, that's all that matters, but you're not going to become an administrator, CMO, department chief by seeing the most patients and getting the best Press-Ganey reviews. Additionally, people with dual degrees or additional training usually have aspirations beyond seeing patients, again realizing that's not for everyone.

I would also agree with prior posters that the program has some importance in ranks. I intentionally avoid residency MATCH except for a select few applying to the PSDP, but when ranking fellows, the program they did residency at does count for or against them. Certainly, if you went to a mediocre residency but did amazing things, then it doesn't really matter. Its just that people in general who go to mediocre residencies don't do amazing things in comparison to the applicants who went to better regarded programs. There are of course exceptions to the rule, but that is my general observation. On the other hand... anyone can bill for RVUs, so mediocre is just fine.

 

[GB4ME]

I feel like if you are applying to neurosurgery, you should feel lucky if you match at all, regardless of if it's Buffalo or Louisiana. I'm sure those are still extremely difficult to get into since when applying to nsg/plastics, most don't have the luxury of picking their geographic preference. I could be wrong though since what do I know 🤷‍♂️

You are correct but still some people are stubborn. I’ve heard some med students say if I can’t match into abc at xyz school then I will just wait and try next year or do a intern year and try to match. Foolish I know but some people are foolish.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Prestige matters. Especially for competitive residencies. It isn't the be-all and end-all...but it's important. Unless there's a lot of money at stake, or you don't feel that Prestigious U. is a good fit for you...aim high.

 

[Phloston]

I'm seeking advice about medical school rankings. I do not have an interest in academic medicine, but am potentially interested in specialties such as cardiology, pediatric ENT, ENT and pediatric cardiology.

If you want to pursue a competitive specialty does it matter if you go to a Top 30 vs Top 50 vs Top 100-120 school? Why or why not?

I do not have a physician mentor or physicians in my family so any advice would be greatly appreciated.

The only thing programs will look at are your 2CK score and grades/class rank. People discuss this romanticized notion of the applicant being "well-rounded." But they secretly fixate on the numbers.

Be top-50% in your class with having worked in Africa for four years helping children, versus top-10% with no experience in life, and they'll choose the latter.

The more competitive the speciality/program you're looking at, the more your class rank will matter. Otherwise, 2CK will carry a greater amount of the weight over class rank.

 

[Zeldaspikes]

This thread is like comparing who is a better character to use in smash bros. Zero Suit Samus or Pikachu? What may be awesome for you may not work for someone else. Do the best you can, at the end of day you can't placate everyone and some things are honestly out of your control. To the best of our abilities lets collectively strive for the best whatever that may be in your eyes. At the end of day if your making a decision of Harvard v Buffalo v Penn go with your gut (everyone values different things, family, location, etc no two people will be the making same decisions with exact same thought processes, don't look at silly fantasy tiers.

 

[Browns99]

The only thing programs will look at are your 2CK score and grades/class rank. People discuss this romanticized notion of the applicant being "well-rounded." But they secretly fixate on the numbers.

Be top-50% in your class with having worked in Africa for four years helping children, versus top-10% with no experience in life, and they'll choose the latter.

The more competitive the speciality/program you're looking at, the more your class rank will matter. Otherwise, 2CK will carry a greater amount of the weight over class rank.

LORs are more important than class rank for speciality and school "prestige/ranking" will absolutely matter, especially with Step 1 going P/F, just a matter of fact. Of course, an applicant needs to be well-rounded regardless of what school they attended, and if you present a great application( Scores, grades LOR, interview, etc.) it will not matter if you came from a low-tiered school, you will likely match into your speciality.

 

[Dogruffle01]

The only thing programs will look at are your 2CK score and grades/class rank. People discuss this romanticized notion of the applicant being "well-rounded." But they secretly fixate on the numbers.

Be top-50% in your class with having worked in Africa for four years helping children, versus top-10% with no experience in life, and they'll choose the latter.

The more competitive the speciality/program you're looking at, the more your class rank will matter. Otherwise, 2CK will carry a greater amount of the weight over class rank.

Also class rank doesn’t exist for about half of the T10 schools.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

This topic has been beaten to death, but yes prestige matters but way way way less than other fields.

My firm basically doesn’t hire anybody who didn’t go to an Ivy League undergrad. There are plenty of other finance and law firms that are the same.

In medicine, the anesthesiologist who went to Yale and the anesthesiologist who went to Wright State make the same amount of money.

The problem with asking this question is that there is a lot of coping on both sides. People who go to a less prestigious school generally try to convince themselves that rank, step 2 etc are more important. On the other hand, people who took out an extra 250k to attend a t10 will try to convince themselves that they will be able to match neurosurgery with a 205 step 2.

 

[someonerandom]

Also class rank doesn’t exist for about half of the T10 schools.

Or most schools I believe. Almost 2/3 of the schools that I was accepted at (one T20, the rest mid-tier to low-tier) did not rank (although some did distinguish the top X% or had true internal rankings)

 

[Saturday’s Child]

Whenever this debate is held, one word that isn’t focused on enough is “matter”. Matter for what, and to whom? The answer will always be “it depends”, so it’s useless to go on and on trying to end at a “yes” or “no”.

Does it matter to patients? Maybe — some patients like to see that their Dr trained at Harvard, but if that doctor is not good at their job or has bad bedside manner, it won’t matter whether they trained at Harvard. I’ve worked with a D.O. whose patients loved them.

Does it matter to residency programs? Maybe — prestigious schools afford students more opportunities for research and connections with well-known faculty, and attending a prestigious school lends nice support to one’s track record of high achievement. But “prestige” as some abstract sense of superiority alone will not make up for poor clinical performance or bad personality. Seeing that most neurosurgery residents at Hopkins went to prestigious med schools should speak more to the types of students they are than the type of school they went to. Those students would have succeeded anywhere, and going to a prestigious med school just added fuel to that fire.

Does it matter to you? Maybe — life is short and there are only so many accomplishments worth hanging one’s hat on. Getting into any med school, let alone a prestigious school, is one of those accomplishments. Full stop… Yet any car will get you from point A to point B, so why does anyone buy a Ferrari over a Honda? It’s nice to have something tangible to reflect your hard work and/or good fortune. Some people care about that kind of stuff, others are perfectly fine driving Hondas.

More importantly, whether prestige/ranking “matters” is really only applicable to a very small percentage of applicants/medical students. Students who don’t attend the “prestigious” schools should not waste their time worrying whether they will miss out on an opportunity that may be taken from them by a student at a more prestigious school. Focus only on what you can control. At most MD schools, no doors will be closed to you purely because of your school’s name.