Does medical school really cost $505,244?

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petomed

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I did some number crunching in excel and this is what I came up with. Assuming the current GradPlus interest rate of 7% and deferment for 3 + 1 years during residency and fellowship, the first payment occurs 8 years after starting medical school.

This is for someone like myself, who will presumably need loans for the full cost of attendance at a private university. I'm really hoping this is somehow a worst case scenario analysis but I'm not sure how someone can beat these numbers if their annual cost of attendance is similar and there isn't money coming from anywhere else. Even so, the loans can be paid down over time and that is all that matters for me.

Can any recent grads, residents, or attendings comment on the reality of these figures?

1st year cost of attendance = $80,000
Principle after year 1 of medical school = $85,783
Plus year 2 loan of $80,000 = $165,783
Principle after year 2 of medical school = $177,768
Plus year 3 loan of $80,000 = $257,768
Principle after year 3 of medical school = $276,402
Plus year 4 loan of $80,000 = $356,402
Principle after year 4 of medical school = $382,166

So far we have $320,000 of initial loan which snowballs to $382,166 via compound interest. Now we defer for 3 years of residency + 1 of fellowship:

Principle after year 1 of residency = $409,793
Principle after year 2 of residency = $439,417
Principle after year 3 of residency = $471,182
Principle after year 4 of fellowship = $505,244

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Last edited:
I did some number crunching in excel and this is what I came up with. Assuming the current GradPlus interest rate of 7% and deferment for 3 + 1 years during residency and fellowship, the first payment occurs 8 years after starting medical school.

This is for someone like myself, who will presumably need loans for the full cost of attendance at a private university. I'm really hoping this is somehow a worst case scenario analysis but I'm not sure how someone can beat these numbers if their annual cost of attendance is similar and there isn't money coming from anywhere else. Even so, the loans can be paid down over time and that is all that matters for me.

Can any recent grads, residents, or attendings comment on the reality of these figures?

1st year cost of attendance = $80,000
Principle after year 1 of medical school = $85,783
Plus year 2 loan of $80,000 = $165,783
Principle after year 2 of medical school = $177,768
Plus year 3 loan of $80,000 = $257,768
Principle after year 3 of medical school = $276,402
Plus year 4 loan of $80,000 = $356,402
Principle after year 4 of medical school = $382,166

So far we have $320,000 of initial loan which snowballs to $382,166 via compound interest. Now we defer for 3 years of residency + 1 of fellowship:

Principle after year 1 of residency = $409,793
Principle after year 2 of residency = $439,417
Principle after year 3 of residency = $471,182
Principle after year 4 of fellowship = $505,244

looks smack on to me

it's like buying a house, a second mortgage
 
Well that's a sobering number 🙁

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Where are you getting $80,000 for the first year? This seems highly variable, maybe specific to your situation?
 
It's possible, but that's about as worst-case as it can be. That would be assuming a relatively expensive school, relatively expensive living expenses, and someone who doesn't blink at their loans for 8 years.
 
I did some number crunching in excel and this is what I came up with. Assuming the current GradPlus interest rate of 7% and deferment for 3 + 1 years during residency and fellowship, the first payment occurs 8 years after starting medical school.

This is for someone like myself, who will presumably need loans for the full cost of attendance at a private university. I'm really hoping this is somehow a worst case scenario analysis but I'm not sure how someone can beat these numbers if their annual cost of attendance is similar and there isn't money coming from anywhere else. Even so, the loans can be paid down over time and that is all that matters for me.

Can any recent grads, residents, or attendings comment on the reality of these figures?

1st year cost of attendance = $80,000
Principle after year 1 of medical school = $85,783
Plus year 2 loan of $80,000 = $165,783
Principle after year 2 of medical school = $177,768
Plus year 3 loan of $80,000 = $257,768
Principle after year 3 of medical school = $276,402
Plus year 4 loan of $80,000 = $356,402
Principle after year 4 of medical school = $382,166

So far we have $320,000 of initial loan which snowballs to $382,166 via compound interest. Now we defer for 3 years of residency + 1 of fellowship:

Principle after year 1 of residency = $409,793
Principle after year 2 of residency = $439,417
Principle after year 3 of residency = $471,182
Principle after year 4 of fellowship = $505,244
Deferral is really hard to get these days. Realistically, you're going to pay 10% of disposable income per the REPAYE plan. Interest accrues but does not compound while in school, and does the same once you enter a hardship repayment plan such as REPAYE. You also get some cheaper loans as a part of your initial loan package. You can take up to $40,500/year in Stafford loans, which are at 6% right now, with just over 1% in up-front fees. Grad plus is 7% with a 4.7% fee.

So you're taking on (40.5k*1.07+39.5k*1.117) year one.
$86,898 with $80,000 principal
Year two, (40,500*1.07+39,500*1.117)+86,898+(40,500*0.06+39,500*0.7)
$204,435 with $160,000 principal
Year three, (40,500*1.07+39,500*1.117)+204435+(81000*0.06+79000*0.7)
$352,052
Year four, (40,500*1.07+39,500*1.117)+352052+(121500*0.06+118500*0.7)
$529,748.5
At this point, everything compounds, and you start paying interest on your interest, so we'll give you an average interest rate of 6.5% for simplicity on your $529,748 balance. REPAYE is a newer option for repayment that has an added perk: if your payment doesn't cover all of your interest
($529,748*1.065)-$4,500=$559,682, with $529,478 in principal and
(559,682-$529,748)/2=$14,967 in interest after the interest forgiveness of 50%
Since your principal doesn't get reduced since you are currently under REPAYE, your accrued interest will be virtually the same every year, so multiply this out for every year of residency and tack it on.
$14,967*3+$529,478=$574,379 at the end of residency, with $529,478 of principal and the remainder in accrued but not compounded interest.

The principal number is probably inflated by about 20-30k due to the fact that interest is accrued over time, rather than immediately upon taking the loans out (so you're only paying 6 months of interest on one of your loans each year since it's handed out halfway through the year), but otherwise this estimate should be fairly accurate unless interest rates rise (which they probably will).
 
Where are you getting $80,000 for the first year? This seems highly variable, maybe specific to your situation?
It's basically the exact situation I, and many people like myself, are in. Fairly typical for small or private non-state schools that are lower ranked or on the DO end of things. I mean, take a look at what you'll be paying at NYCOM if you don't have parents to throw cash at you or live with:
Cost of Education | College of Osteopathic Medicine | NYIT

Nearly 100k per year makes OP's estimate look like a bargain.
 
Where are you getting $80,000 for the first year? This seems highly variable, maybe specific to your situation?
Looked realistically at my app and used MSAR. I crossed off schools that are either a big reach or >$80,000 total cost of attendance. There are quite a few above $80,000 that are within reach but when the debt rises above half a million before having a real salary, the line has to be drawn somewhere.

I haven't gotten to the DO list yet but I know that will be a similarly mixed bag.
 
Deferral is really hard to get these days. Realistically, you're going to pay 10% of disposable income per the REPAYE plan. Interest accrues but does not compound while in school, and does the same once you enter a hardship repayment plan such as REPAYE. You also get some cheaper loans as a part of your initial loan package. You can take up to $40,500/year in Stafford loans, which are at 6% right now, with just over 1% in up-front fees. Grad plus is 7% with a 4.7% fee.

So you're taking on (40.5k*1.07+39.5k*1.117) year one.
$86,898 with $80,000 principal
Year two, (40,500*1.07+39,500*1.117)+86,898+(40,500*0.06+39,500*0.7)
$204,435 with $160,000 principal
Year three, (40,500*1.07+39,500*1.117)+204435+(81000*0.06+79000*0.7)
$352,052
Year four, (40,500*1.07+39,500*1.117)+352052+(121500*0.06+118500*0.7)
$529,748.5
At this point, everything compounds, and you start paying interest on your interest, so we'll give you an average interest rate of 6.5% for simplicity on your $529,748 balance. REPAYE is a newer option for repayment that has an added perk: if your payment doesn't cover all of your interest
($529,748*1.065)-$4,500=$559,682, with $529,478 in principal and
(559,682-$529,748)/2=$14,967 in interest after the interest forgiveness of 50%
Since your principal doesn't get reduced since you are currently under REPAYE, your accrued interest will be virtually the same every year, so multiply this out for every year of residency and tack it on.
$14,967*3+$529,478=$574,379 at the end of residency, with $529,478 of principal and the remainder in accrued but not compounded interest.

The principal number is probably inflated by about 20-30k due to the fact that interest is accrued over time, rather than immediately upon taking the loans out (so you're only paying 6 months of interest on one of your loans each year since it's handed out halfway through the year), but otherwise this estimate should be fairly accurate unless interest rates rise (which they probably will).
So compound interest is replaced by the even worse 11.7% of 39.5k annually for four years...bringing debt just after med school up to ~$530,000 instead of $382,000. Then the REPAYE plan has some give and take with interest only ballooning up to $574,000 after residency. That's about +$70,000 compared to straightforward compound interest throughout. A bit disheartening to find out I may be low-balling a bit!
 
Maybe we aren't as smart as we thought lol. That's real high


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People should be aware before they enter. When I was accepted interest rates were lower and subsidies still existed for Stafford loans. They got rid of subsidies, but my interest rates got a lot lower temporarily due to the way they set them up. Now that they have risen again, I could never justify school at these prices.
 
People should be aware before they enter. When I was accepted interest rates were lower and subsidies still existed for Stafford loans. They got rid of subsidies, but my interest rates got a lot lower temporarily due to the way they set them up. Now that they have risen again, I could never justify school at these prices.

When did you start?

I was actually surprised the rates were so high when I saw. Yeah it's definitely whack. I'm hoping for a cheaper school to help. Worst case I'll go work in an underserved area for some loan forgiveness.


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When did you start?

I was actually surprised the rates were so high when I saw. Yeah it's definitely whack. I'm hoping for a cheaper school to help. Worst case I'll go work in an underserved area for some loan forgiveness.


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2014. I've got a lot of loans locked in at around 4-5%.
 
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I shadowed PC docs who were working at an underserved clinic in return for their loans being forgiven (and because they loved the work obviously). Those jobs are hard to get though; you really need a background in that kind of service.

Also there's always HPSP...
 
I shadowed PC docs who were working at an underserved clinic in return for their loans being forgiven (and because they loved the work obviously). Those jobs are hard to get though; you really need a background in that kind of service.

Also there's always HPSP...
My understanding is you only qualify for those loan forgiveness programs if you're a PCP. I would love to say PCP is for me but how many people really know what they want to do before rotations during med school? Even if so, matching in it isn't guaranteed.

Based on what I've read, HPSP is not worth it if money is really the reason for doing it.

I suppose loan repayment is something some employers offer but now we're talking about marginal salary adjustments when considering the offer package as a whole.
 
keep in mind, IIRC PCP for the purpose of loan forgiveness includes fam med, peds, ob/gyn, IM, and psych

I am surprised it doesn't include EM as I know rural areas need those physicians as well. Hopefully by the time I'm out of it all it will.
 
My understanding is you only qualify for those loan forgiveness programs if you're a PCP. I would love to say PCP is for me but how many people really know what they want to do before rotations during med school? Even if so, matching in it isn't guaranteed.

Based on what I've read, HPSP is not worth it if money is really the reason for doing it.

I suppose loan repayment is something some employers offer but now we're talking about marginal salary adjustments when considering the offer package as a whole.

Oh for sure don't do HPSP unless you want to serve. Just throwing out another method a lot of docs and increasingly DOs pursue to pay for med school and get into solid residency programs in PC.

You can't know what you want now! No one can. But it's also important to remember that primary care represents a huge spectrum of medicine.
 
keep in mind, IIRC PCP for the purpose of loan forgiveness includes fam med, peds, ob/gyn, IM, and psych
I didn't know ob/gyn, IM, and psych all qualified for loan forgiveness. Couldn't you fellowship in EM after an IM residency? Would you still qualify for loan forgiveness? I'm still learning here so forgive me if I have things blatantly misunderstood.
 
I didn't know ob/gyn, IM, and psych all qualified for loan forgiveness. Couldn't you fellowship in EM after an IM residency? Would you still qualify for loan forgiveness? I'm still learning here so forgive me if I have things blatantly misunderstood.

it's not specifically what you are board certified in that makes you eligible

EM and IM are completely separate residency training programs
 
Deferral is really hard to get these days
Incorrect. Lenders (all federal, most private) are required to grant mandatory deferrals during school and mandatory forbearances during residency. There are also deferrals for economic hardship. No, you can't get one just by asking for one, there's paperwork which is sometimes overwhelming, but generally there is no assumption by lenders that there is income during med school or that income during residency is sufficient to make payments. And of course you should be looking at repayment plans like REPAYE instead of deferral/forbearance whenever you have nontrivial income, because your monthly payment can be very very tiny if you have dependents or whatnot.

Deferment and Forbearance
I shadowed PC docs who were working at an underserved clinic in return for their loans being forgiven (and because they loved the work obviously). Those jobs are hard to get though; you really need a background in that kind of service.
Incorrect. The word "underserved" means it's hard to get providers to practice in an area. If you're willing to work in an underserved area you'll be recruited half to death and you'll have multiple forgiveness/assistance options to choose from. Also there are abundant locums opportunities in underserved areas to get extra $ on weekends or to take a 1 day/wk gig. (Is it worth working in an underserved area for the money? Totally up to you and where you're willing to work. Possibly the same thing as the military decision - universally understood that you don't do it for the money.)

Specialists are recruited to work in underserved areas, under a variety of incentives, just like primary care docs. Pick a rural area & google a hospital. Wiki the bed count. If there are more than about 24 beds, there's an OR. If there's an OR, there are obgyns, surgeons, anes, rads & most likely specialists. If you're way out in a rural part of the WWAMI region, 27% of the US land mass, 3% of the people, then you can assume you'll get choppered to a hospital to get to a specialist for a non-acute problem. Otherwise in many rural areas you "just" have to wait for the "urologist day" in your local hospital.
Also there's always HPSP...
Correct. I lost count about 4 years ago, but the number of HPSP free ride scholarships is around 250. For the whole country. Similarly there are around 200 NHSC scholarships. Note those scholarships are not specific to MD/DO but include dentists, PTs etc. Even if I'm off by a factor of 10 with these numbers there are still only a tiny number of these scholarships.
My understanding is you only qualify for those loan forgiveness programs if you're a PCP.
Incorrect. PSLF is not specific to specialty. HPSP is not specific to specialty but it does add constraints to matching odds. NHSC is specific to primary care (FM/IM/Peds, sometimes psych).

Local/state incentives are not necessarily specific to specialty, and frequently target obgyn, gen surg, anes, rads etc. One of the obgyn attendings I work with just got a $100,000 scholarship from the state to work in a safety net hospital.
I would love to say PCP is for me but how many people really know what they want to do before rotations during med school? Even if so, matching in it isn't guaranteed.
Correct but if you're thinking you'll have trouble matching into the least competitive specialties, many of which are in primary care, then you very simply should not go to med school.

In other words, if you're sneaking in a low-GPA back door to med school without being academically ready, such as taking any acceptance you can get in the Carib or in a new/religious/for-profit med school, you're probably getting yourself into massive debt without a stable plan (ie matching into a residency) for getting out of that debt.

In other words, the debt loads vs. Carib match rates absolutely should be reducing the enrollment in the Carib but now that we're a country that embraces higher ed fraud what even matters anymore.
I suppose loan repayment is something some employers offer but now we're talking about marginal salary adjustments when considering the offer package as a whole.
Not necessarily. As above, incentives of all kinds are available and vary dramatically across the country. Here's a 2 second national job search on physician jobs of all specialties including "repayment", see for yourself if the base salary is what you're expecting regardless of incentives. Physician Jobs | Physician Jobs | PracticeLink.com

(No, there are no really great physician job search sites; PracticeLink is currently the one I think of as least sucky.)
keep in mind, IIRC PCP for the purpose of loan forgiveness includes fam med, peds, ob/gyn, IM, and psych
Completely incorrect for PSLF: only required to have a non-profit employer. Completely incorrect for PAYE and REPAYE: only required to make your payments for X years.

The primary care constraints for FM/IM/Peds are in NHSC and state primary care programs. Sometimes psych, sometimes obgyn, sometimes even gen surg.
Couldn't you fellowship in EM after an IM residency?
Generally no, although you can always find hospitals willing to pay a BC/BE IM doc $60k and make them work their fannies off for a year of ED time and call it a fellowship. EM is a 4 year residency and to get BC/BE in EM you have to complete that residency, regardless of whether you completed IM or whatever already. If you do FM you arguably have more EM fellowship opportunities but don't confuse that with being EM BC/BE. FM with an EM fellowship means you're slightly more employable on staff in a small ED, such as you take call while you're mostly in clinic. Yes of course there are FM docs serving as ED chief in some places. (BC/BE means you're employable in your specialty. BC: board certified, means you passed the boards. BE: board eligible, means you're done with residency, haven't taken/passed boards. EM: a discipline. ED: a facility. ER: a TV show.)

In summary:
1. ridiculous student debt loads of $350k+ are the new normal for non-trust-fund kids. Given there are 45,000+ US med students per year, I think it's fair to be thinking at least 10,000 new MD/DO grads per year are in $350k debt. Point being: you're not alone and you have a decent federal lobbyist arm in the AMA.
2. currently, there are still abundant options to manage a ridiculous level of student debt during med school, residency and practice
3. loan forgiveness is a component of many debt management programs including federal repayment (PSLF, REPAYE, PAYE), underserved practice, military, state/local, hospital group etc.
4. deferral and forbearance for standard income hardships are mandatory for all student lenders, public or private (enrollment in school, internship/residency, economic hardship, national guard service, natural disasters, peace corps etc)
 
Incorrect. Lenders (all federal, most private) are required to grant mandatory deferrals during school and mandatory forbearances during residency. There are also deferrals for economic hardship. No, you can't get one just by asking for one, there's paperwork which is sometimes overwhelming, but generally there is no assumption by lenders that there is income during med school or that income during residency is sufficient to make payments. And of course you should be looking at repayment plans like REPAYE instead of deferral/forbearance whenever you have nontrivial income, because your monthly payment can be very very tiny if you have dependents or whatnot.

Deferment and Forbearance

Incorrect. The word "underserved" means it's hard to get providers to practice in an area. If you're willing to work in an underserved area you'll be recruited half to death and you'll have multiple forgiveness/assistance options to choose from. Also there are abundant locums opportunities in underserved areas to get extra $ on weekends or to take a 1 day/wk gig. (Is it worth working in an underserved area for the money? Totally up to you and where you're willing to work. Possibly the same thing as the military decision - universally understood that you don't do it for the money.)

Specialists are recruited to work in underserved areas, under a variety of incentives, just like primary care docs. Pick a rural area & google a hospital. Wiki the bed count. If there are more than about 24 beds, there's an OR. If there's an OR, there are obgyns, surgeons, anes, rads & most likely specialists. If you're way out in a rural part of the WWAMI region, 27% of the US land mass, 3% of the people, then you can assume you'll get choppered to a hospital to get to a specialist for a non-acute problem. Otherwise in many rural areas you "just" have to wait for the "urologist day" in your local hospital.

Correct. I lost count about 4 years ago, but the number of HPSP free ride scholarships is around 250. For the whole country. Similarly there are around 200 NHSC scholarships. Note those scholarships are not specific to MD/DO but include dentists, PTs etc. Even if I'm off by a factor of 10 with these numbers there are still only a tiny number of these scholarships.

Incorrect. PSLF is not specific to specialty. HPSP is not specific to specialty but it does add constraints to matching odds. NHSC is specific to primary care (FM/IM/Peds, sometimes psych).

Local/state incentives are not necessarily specific to specialty, and frequently target obgyn, gen surg, anes, rads etc. One of the obgyn attendings I work with just got a $100,000 scholarship from the state to work in a safety net hospital.

Correct but if you're thinking you'll have trouble matching into the least competitive specialties, many of which are in primary care, then you very simply should not go to med school.

In other words, if you're sneaking in a low-GPA back door to med school without being academically ready, such as taking any acceptance you can get in the Carib or in a new/religious/for-profit med school, you're probably getting yourself into massive debt without a stable plan (ie matching into a residency) for getting out of that debt.

In other words, the debt loads vs. Carib match rates absolutely should be reducing the enrollment in the Carib but now that we're a country that embraces higher ed fraud what even matters anymore.

Not necessarily. As above, incentives of all kinds are available and vary dramatically across the country. Here's a 2 second national job search on physician jobs of all specialties including "repayment", see for yourself if the base salary is what you're expecting regardless of incentives. Physician Jobs | Physician Jobs | PracticeLink.com

(No, there are no really great physician job search sites; PracticeLink is currently the one I think of as least sucky.)

Completely incorrect for PSLF: only required to have a non-profit employer. Completely incorrect for PAYE and REPAYE: only required to make your payments for X years.

The primary care constraints for FM/IM/Peds are in NHSC and state primary care programs. Sometimes psych, sometimes obgyn, sometimes even gen surg.

Generally no, although you can always find hospitals willing to pay a BC/BE IM doc $60k and make them work their fannies off for a year of ED time and call it a fellowship. EM is a 4 year residency and to get BC/BE in EM you have to complete that residency, regardless of whether you completed IM or whatever already. If you do FM you arguably have more EM fellowship opportunities but don't confuse that with being EM BC/BE. FM with an EM fellowship means you're slightly more employable on staff in a small ED, such as you take call while you're mostly in clinic. Yes of course there are FM docs serving as ED chief in some places. (BC/BE means you're employable in your specialty. BC: board certified, means you passed the boards. BE: board eligible, means you're done with residency, haven't taken/passed boards. EM: a discipline. ED: a facility. ER: a TV show.)

In summary:
1. ridiculous student debt loads of $350k+ are the new normal for non-trust-fund kids. Given there are 45,000+ US med students per year, I think it's fair to be thinking at least 10,000 new MD/DO grads per year are in $350k debt. Point being: you're not alone and you have a decent federal lobbyist arm in the AMA.
2. currently, there are still abundant options to manage a ridiculous level of student debt during med school, residency and practice
3. loan forgiveness is a component of many debt management programs including federal repayment (PSLF, REPAYE, PAYE), underserved practice, military, state/local, hospital group etc.
4. deferral and forbearance for standard income hardships are mandatory for all student lenders, public or private (enrollment in school, internship/residency, economic hardship, national guard service, natural disasters, peace corps etc)
While forbearance is an option, it isn't a practical option unless your loans are small. Deferral and forbearance can cause your interest to balloon, as you lose the 50% subsidy to interest you'd otherwise be entitled to under REPAYE, and after you come out of either your interest compounds. It's like financial suicide.
 
Incorrect. Lenders (all federal, most private) are required to grant mandatory deferrals during school and mandatory forbearances during residency. There are also deferrals for economic hardship. No, you can't get one just by asking for one, there's paperwork which is sometimes overwhelming, but generally there is no assumption by lenders that there is income during med school or that income during residency is sufficient to make payments. And of course you should be looking at repayment plans like REPAYE instead of deferral/forbearance whenever you have nontrivial income, because your monthly payment can be very very tiny if you have dependents or whatnot.

Deferment and Forbearance

Incorrect. The word "underserved" means it's hard to get providers to practice in an area. If you're willing to work in an underserved area you'll be recruited half to death and you'll have multiple forgiveness/assistance options to choose from. Also there are abundant locums opportunities in underserved areas to get extra $ on weekends or to take a 1 day/wk gig. (Is it worth working in an underserved area for the money? Totally up to you and where you're willing to work. Possibly the same thing as the military decision - universally understood that you don't do it for the money.)

Specialists are recruited to work in underserved areas, under a variety of incentives, just like primary care docs. Pick a rural area & google a hospital. Wiki the bed count. If there are more than about 24 beds, there's an OR. If there's an OR, there are obgyns, surgeons, anes, rads & most likely specialists. If you're way out in a rural part of the WWAMI region, 27% of the US land mass, 3% of the people, then you can assume you'll get choppered to a hospital to get to a specialist for a non-acute problem. Otherwise in many rural areas you "just" have to wait for the "urologist day" in your local hospital.

Correct. I lost count about 4 years ago, but the number of HPSP free ride scholarships is around 250. For the whole country. Similarly there are around 200 NHSC scholarships. Note those scholarships are not specific to MD/DO but include dentists, PTs etc. Even if I'm off by a factor of 10 with these numbers there are still only a tiny number of these scholarships.

Incorrect. PSLF is not specific to specialty. HPSP is not specific to specialty but it does add constraints to matching odds. NHSC is specific to primary care (FM/IM/Peds, sometimes psych).

Local/state incentives are not necessarily specific to specialty, and frequently target obgyn, gen surg, anes, rads etc. One of the obgyn attendings I work with just got a $100,000 scholarship from the state to work in a safety net hospital.

Correct but if you're thinking you'll have trouble matching into the least competitive specialties, many of which are in primary care, then you very simply should not go to med school.

In other words, if you're sneaking in a low-GPA back door to med school without being academically ready, such as taking any acceptance you can get in the Carib or in a new/religious/for-profit med school, you're probably getting yourself into massive debt without a stable plan (ie matching into a residency) for getting out of that debt.

In other words, the debt loads vs. Carib match rates absolutely should be reducing the enrollment in the Carib but now that we're a country that embraces higher ed fraud what even matters anymore.

Not necessarily. As above, incentives of all kinds are available and vary dramatically across the country. Here's a 2 second national job search on physician jobs of all specialties including "repayment", see for yourself if the base salary is what you're expecting regardless of incentives. Physician Jobs | Physician Jobs | PracticeLink.com

(No, there are no really great physician job search sites; PracticeLink is currently the one I think of as least sucky.)

Completely incorrect for PSLF: only required to have a non-profit employer. Completely incorrect for PAYE and REPAYE: only required to make your payments for X years.

The primary care constraints for FM/IM/Peds are in NHSC and state primary care programs. Sometimes psych, sometimes obgyn, sometimes even gen surg.

Generally no, although you can always find hospitals willing to pay a BC/BE IM doc $60k and make them work their fannies off for a year of ED time and call it a fellowship. EM is a 4 year residency and to get BC/BE in EM you have to complete that residency, regardless of whether you completed IM or whatever already. If you do FM you arguably have more EM fellowship opportunities but don't confuse that with being EM BC/BE. FM with an EM fellowship means you're slightly more employable on staff in a small ED, such as you take call while you're mostly in clinic. Yes of course there are FM docs serving as ED chief in some places. (BC/BE means you're employable in your specialty. BC: board certified, means you passed the boards. BE: board eligible, means you're done with residency, haven't taken/passed boards. EM: a discipline. ED: a facility. ER: a TV show.)

In summary:
1. ridiculous student debt loads of $350k+ are the new normal for non-trust-fund kids. Given there are 45,000+ US med students per year, I think it's fair to be thinking at least 10,000 new MD/DO grads per year are in $350k debt. Point being: you're not alone and you have a decent federal lobbyist arm in the AMA.
2. currently, there are still abundant options to manage a ridiculous level of student debt during med school, residency and practice
3. loan forgiveness is a component of many debt management programs including federal repayment (PSLF, REPAYE, PAYE), underserved practice, military, state/local, hospital group etc.
4. deferral and forbearance for standard income hardships are mandatory for all student lenders, public or private (enrollment in school, internship/residency, economic hardship, national guard service, natural disasters, peace corps etc)

The caveat to my original post is that these docs I shadowed work in a highly desirable urban part of the country to live. I should have mentioned that, but this is why it's really difficult to get hired there. It's not like the Wyoming doc program or other such things. It's hard to get underserved loan forgiveness + undesirable place to live.
 
While forbearance is an option, it isn't a practical option unless your loans are small. Deferral and forbearance can cause your interest to balloon, as you lose the 50% subsidy to interest you'd otherwise be entitled to under REPAYE, and after you come out of either your interest compounds. It's like financial suicide.
Correct, and the mandatory economic hardship deferral is a step between mandatory forbearance and starting payments. The six or so residents in my program with newborns are happy to have some choices.
 
Looks spot on to me, OP. Don't do it if you're going to take out loans for full COA.
 
Looks spot on to me, OP. Don't do it if you're going to take out loans for full COA.
Well, lets look at the payment side. Assume the above scenario where the total debt is $580,000 and finally you have a salary to begin making payments. The monthly payment for stretching these loans out to 20 yrs is about $4,500 or $54,000 annually. That means you pay $1,080,000 over the lifetime, which is $500,000 in pure interest...wonderful.

But what's left over to live on each year? Say you live in NY state and make an attending salary of $200,000. Your income after tax is about $133,000. Serious retirement catching up to do, so lets throw 20% off the top into investments/savings. Now the take-home is $106,000. Then the loans...subtract $54,000 each year and the working take-home reduces to about $52,000 or $4,367/month.

Can you live on $4,367/month? Of course and of course not, it depends on where you are in your life, how old your are, and where you were financially when you began. Things change quite a bit if the salary gets knocked up from that 200k or if the total starting debt is a big overshoot.

Again, money isn't what I'm getting into medicine for but it's foolish not to make sure the debt can't ever be paid down. It looks to me it's still possible. Certainly won't be living lavishly though.
 
Well, lets look at the payment side. Assume the above scenario where the total debt is $580,000 and finally you have a salary to begin making payments. The monthly payment for stretching these loans out to 20 yrs is about $4,500 or $54,000 annually. That means you pay $1,080,000 over the lifetime, which is $500,000 in pure interest...wonderful.

But what's left over to live on each year? Say you live in NY state and make an attending salary of $200,000. Your income after tax is about $133,000. Serious retirement catching up to do, so lets throw 20% off the top into investments/savings. Now the take-home is $106,000. Then the loans...subtract $54,000 each year and the working take-home reduces to about $52,000 or $4,367/month.

Can you live on $4,367/month? Of course and of course not, it depends on where you are in your life, how old your are, and where you were financially when you began. Things change quite a bit if the salary gets knocked up from that 200k or if the total starting debt is a big overshoot.

Again, money isn't what I'm getting into medicine for but it's foolish not to make sure the debt can't ever be paid down. It looks to me it's still possible. Certainly won't be living lavishly though.

Sounds ****e to me. You don't need to beat around the bush.
 
You're all ignoring opportunity cost: what you could have earned working some job while in medical school

If you're good enough to get in, odds are that this is at least 100k per year, probably 150k.
Yeah opportunity cost completely depends on what you would be doing instead of medical school. Go into finance or business, sure you could hit those numbers. Go PhD in something and things can fluctuate tremendously between and above those numbers. Otherwise I doubt it until the pinnacle of your career, if at all. But then, consider the extra free time you have for family, travel, hobbies, etc...how can you put a value on that?

It's a good point to consider opportunity cost though and doubtlessly few on this route haven't thought the same thing. What if you could have both after med school? Hospitalist anyone?
 
No. my med school had a cost of attendance of almost 80k a year. I got waived 35k a year in tuition. So, after living expenses, I left with about 100k of loans. The fancier and bigger the endowment, the more likely you end up paying less than your state school. If you have a financial need. If you are poor and your parents odn' thave a lot of money, then don't cross off those fancy schools for the cost.
 
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