Does name of Undergrad matter for application? YES - read this story!

[missbones]

You don't need to read the story to know the story's point is true. Just look at MDapps. I've gone through hundreds of them and you can see a definite trend of favoritism for big name schools. That's not to say they don't deserve it, but it makes a difference and it makes a significant difference.

Since MDapps is self-reported I tend to take it with a grain of salt. But I see your point.

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[richse]

i said you didnt read my post because you said "i did poorly this cycle"

Yeah, I forgot which of the two people from your story that you were. Care to respond to the relevant parts of my comments?

Don't worry if you don't want to respond, if I had made up a BS story I don't know what I would say in response to someone pointing out the flaws either.

 

[ACSheldor]

You're making too big of a deal out of the school name thing. As others have said, if someone sees identical apps then they will choose the better school, that's common sense man. What is this all about "no name schools." You assume that people from these no name schools get mad because they don't want to admit their school is worse but how about someone from a big name school not admitting that they're no better off than someone who went to a big state school but the only difference is that the big name school student is 100K in debt because he wanted to go to a big name school. You see how that can go both ways?

Yes school name matters but if you're a good applicant, then you're a good applicant. Both of you got acceptances, that's what matters. Why argue and bicker about it after the fact? Where either of you went is completely useless now. Just worry about medical school.

 

[randombetch]

You're making too big of a deal out of the school name thing. As others have said, if someone sees identical apps then they will choose the better school, that's common sense man. What is this all about "no name schools." You assume that people from these no name schools get mad because they don't want to admit their school is worse but how about someone from a big name school not admitting that they're no better off than someone who went to a big state school but the only difference is that the big name school student is 100K in debt because he wanted to go to a big name school. You see how that can go both ways?

Definitely a valid point, but there are two caveats:
1) The people from the big name school are right: they do have a slight advantage. People from no name schools who deny this are clearly wrong. It has been said by LizzyM, the deans of admissions who have visited my school and said so, and others who have had experience with admissions decisions that undergraduate institution is a factor.
2) There are far more students from no name schools than big name schools on SDN. Thus, people here are more likely to mistakenly say that undergraduate institution makes no difference whatsoever.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

i still think that this contention that people say undergrad doesn't matter is false. despite the nauseating frequency with which this topic resurrects itself i can't recall posts that absolutely denied any impact of undergraduate institution, probably because it's an absurd position

 

[ACSheldor]

I agree it matters, I just don't think it will keep you out of medical school so it's not a deal breaker. Maybe at the top 10 or top 20 research schools the name may matter more but my original statement still holds true that if you're a great applicant then it won't matter where you went. There's always a few students at top 20 schools who didn't go to a big name school and they got in because they were good applicants. Big name school students dominate at top 20 schools but that's because those students were great applicants to start out with.

Either way, this whole thread is useless because the OP just told a personal anecdote (very shady one at that) to prove what everyone who has common sense already knew.

 

[chman]

Of course it matters some. But I would argue that once you get out of the top schools it really doesn't matter much. In other words, the difference between two middle of the pack state schools is marginal, if any. Would adcoms be more likely to take an applicant from Yale with the same stats as someone from state university x, of course, lets not kid ourselves. But the reason most people say it doesn't matter and get mad about this is that most of the time there are many other factors at play, such as GPA, MCAT, etc, and those are more important in the long run. Not to mention that this has been beaten to death.

 

[Cleavername]

You don't need to read the story to know the story's point is true. Just look at MDapps. I've gone through hundreds of them and you can see a definite trend of favoritism for big name schools. That's not to say they don't deserve it, but it makes a difference and it makes a significant difference.

big names as in top ranked by US.news and stuff? if it is top ranked, what number are they stoping at for the suppoused favortism, #100 for example or 15 lol?

 

[justinbaily]

Okay, we really need to stop replying to this guy's thread and debating the issue because it's exactly what he wants. Having said that, I will now hypocritically add my two cents.

I go to a small state school and I am acutely aware that an applicant's undergrad can affect admissions; I see it happening to nearly every one of the other students in my class who are applying. They mostly have stats that could be considered pretty good--e.g., 3.75-3.95 / 30-32--and cookie-cutter extracurriculars. Most of them can only get into the state's medical school and have no shot elsewhere. It seems as though, if you don't kill the MCAT, then you're doomed at top 50 schools. I made sure to rack up a number of awards, meaningful clinical activities, a competitive MCAT score, an honest personal statement, etc. in order to get beyond the drag of my school's reputation, and I've had a strong application cycle. What bothers me is not people from well-regarded schools who think that their school's reputation legitimizes their GPA relative to students at lower-ranked schools, but rather the opposite: I can't stand it when somebody from a top-tier school with a low GPA and average MCAT score whines about how they should have just gone to an "easy state school" because adcoms recognize no difference between undergraduate institutions. It's obvious to me that this is false and a form of self-pity for those at Duke, Yale, Harvard, MIT, etc who have underperformed relative to their peers and need some conciliation.

 

[dru2002]

big names as in top ranked by US.news and stuff? if it is top ranked, what number are they stoping at for the suppoused favortism, #100 for example or 15 lol?

I'm curious where the cutoff is as well. Obviously we have the Ivies. Do the "public ivies" count? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_ivies

 

[Narmerguy]

This is one of the biggest full of **** threads I've ever seen. The OP truly must think we're mentally handicapped.

 

[JoshUNCW]

Some clarifying questions:

Did you both have the same major?

Did you both take the same amount of time to complete your uGrad degree?

Did the 2 schools which interviewed the Cal State attendee also interview and/or accept the Berkeley applicant?

Are you both of the same gender?

And just for kicks:

Which one of you is more attractive?

Even if the OPs story is true, his conclusion isn't valid. Like this poster points out, there's a million differences in apps outside of what the OP was talking about.

OP, you went to the lesser school and didn't get in anywhere else. Ever think it's because you suck at interviewing? Maybe you can't write a LOR or secondary to save your life? Maybe you are extremely ugly and the adcoms couldn't stand the sight of you.

We don't know any of this. While I agree that a big name can help your app, I doubt the name of your school was the sole reason for the huge difference in interviews/acceptances between you and your friend.

Trolled.

 

[mmmcdowe]

Same race and gender?

 

[JokerMD]

umm actually you've got to be really dumb to think that school name doesn't matter. Most of us on here believe that school name DOES play a role in the application process.

 

[jhamaican]

You cannot help the blind see. SDN is usually pretty solid, but for some reason everyone on here likes to think that school name does not matter. Just a little SDN quirk. As you pointed out, in the real world everyone knows that the school matters.

 

[iFearMCAT]

I had to share this because there are many threads about this. Naturally, people that go to name brand undergrads believe it matters and the ones that don't go to the big name schools say that it doesn't matter where you complete your undergraduate education. My good friend and I (unintentionally) found that the name of your undergrad definitely matters when it comes to how medical schools approach applicants.

FYI - I am not saying this is right and that one is better than the other. I am just sharing some facts.

So me and my friend both have almost identical applications. This was not intentional - we are just both interested in the same things and some of this even freaks us out because our apps were so similar. We both had EXACTLY 3.8 cGPA and 3.9 sGPA. We both had a 34Q on the MCAT with identical distribution. We both started an organization together that we spent a lot of time with. We were both tutors in the same subjects and we were both TA's for two semesters in O-Chem. We both had zero research experience. We were both EMTs for the same amount of time *2 years*. We both had five letters of rec's from our professors and medical directors of the companies we worked for. Our LORs were very similar because every one of our writers asked us to write our own letters and have them endorse it. They must have changed a few things Im sure but not too much because we had great relationships with all of them. We were both heavily involved with sports our whole lives and we grew up in the same town. We both also started a Rock band in high school that we talked about in either our PS or secondaries. We both had our PS professionally edited and peer reviewed. With all that said - the only difference we had in our applications was that one went to a California State School and one went to UC Berkeley.

You want to know the outcome? We both applied to almost the same schools, about 30 all together. Our applications were in about the same time - maybe about a one week difference. We completed our secondaries within one or two days of receiving it. Out of the 30 schools we applied to, the UC Berkeley student received 14 interviews while the Cal State school student received 2 interviews. Out of the 14 interviews, the UC Berkeley student received 8 acceptances, 2 rejections and 4 waitlists. Out of the 2 interviews, the Cal State school student received one acceptance and one waitlist. We both got in so thats great but that is just horrible. I feel that every significant variable was controlled so that shows the influence of your schools name.

I know this is a sample size of two but this I think is pretty solid evidence. Also, as far as the interview goes - you can see that we are pretty similar individuals so I dont think that made a big difference ... but even still the amount of interview offers for the UC Berkeley student vs Cal State is pretty bad.

edit: i am one hundred percent not a troll. i dont know why this post would make it seem like i am a troll - just didnt want to use my account name.

Dear Collegues;

I have decided to be generous and fully explain the situation for those who are unable to do. You are quite welcome in advance. Upon furhter investigation, I have concluded that there are only three possible routes to which this BS could possibly be correct.

1. The OP is an Asian male. His friend is URM and possibly an URM and a female. As is typically the case for such people, he is looking for a way let out his anger while concealing his true feelings.

2. #1 and the fact that School recognition matters greatly, very greatly. Almost everyone accepted during the first round at UMICH is from an ivy or comparable....There is no debate-case closed.

3. #1 and #2 and the fact that schools realized that you are a gunner who does not care about people at all....they can see that you are just trying to pump your resume for everything you do. The same may be true for your friend but he goes to Berkeley where every pre-med does this anyway so they don't care.

 

[tncekm]

Which is why the good people at the AAMC have developed a wonderful standardized test to prove to admissions committees that your MIT education is so far superior to the one that us state-school kids receive at Eastern Podunk State, where our system of learning is based almost entirely on oral tradition.

Bingo. MCAT = equalizer. And, it definitely DOES matter where you went. Whether or not the OPs story is a fabrication, I believe the numbers are pretty darn similar to what you'd see in real life.

And, to the person who says MIT's courses are "harder", well, that may be. But, MIT does have that open courseware thing majigger, and from what I saw in the ochem section (random sample I took a while back), it was actually easier than my ochem class at a cal state (read: podunk) school. Now, I understand that the class would be full of more talented / dedicated students at MIT, but there is absolutely NO WAY that MIT doesn't take that into consideration. I'll accept some grade deflation, but you've also go to realize that at podunk schools, many more kids fail. It's not like every school you go to has the same normal distribution rules with the same grade cutoffs.

 

[bobsmith]

I'm confused. Did anyone on this thread even argue that where you go doesn't matter at all?

 

[tncekm]

I'm confused. Did anyone on this thread even argue that where you go doesn't matter at all?

The OP was attempting to illustrate the extent to which it matters. E.g. almost totally identical applications, with the school being the exception.

 

[bobsmith]

The OP was attempting to illustrate the extent to which it matters. E.g. almost totally identical applications, with the school being the exception.

Right but when you hold all of the other variables equal, you can't really compare how important school name is relative to all the other factors in an application. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the OP's example doesn't really prove anything with regards to the extent to which it matters.

A better example would be someone with a lower GPA from (name brand school) getting better/equal acceptances than someone with higher GPA from ("podunk") school with all the other factors equal (as ridiculously unlikely as this is).

 

[tncekm]

Right but when you hold all of the other variables equal, you can't really compare how important school name is relative to all the other factors in an application. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the OP's example doesn't really prove anything with regards to the extent to which it matters.

A better example would be someone with a lower GPA from (name brand school) getting better/equal acceptances than someone with higher GPA from ("podunk") school with all the other factors equal (as ridiculously unlikely as this is).

I'm not quite sure how that's a better example.

Typically, in scientific research for example, you have a case and a control. And, what you want to do is make everything as equal as possible. So, if you wanted to do a study about how much school name helps, you'd want to do what the OP claims to have done (but better, and with more people).

 

[bobsmith]

I'm not quite sure how that's a better example.

Typically, in scientific research for example, you have a case and a control. And, what you want to do is make everything as equal as possible. So, if you wanted to do a study about how much school name helps, you'd want to do what the OP claims to have done (but better, and with more people).

I guess my question is, how does this example show the "extent" to which or "how much" school name helps?

Is it because the Cal student was much more successful than the cal state student was? I guess I'd rather compare application factors to application factors rather than taking an application factor and trying to interpret varying 'successful' results

 

[bobsmith]

i still think that this contention that people say undergrad doesn't matter is false. despite the nauseating frequency with which this topic resurrects itself i can't recall posts that absolutely denied any impact of undergraduate institution, probably because it's an absurd position

This thread is funny because it seems to be everyone saying more or less the same thing.

 

[brke2]

So I edited my original post to clarify a few things. I am not saying that the UC Berkeley student (me) is more prepared, smarter, or a better applicant in any way. In one of my posts I said that my Cal state friend is actually smarter (in my eyes).

The MCAT is a great way to standardize students but a GPA takes anywhere from 3-5 years to maintain with constant hard work - and so does some of the other activities that goes into your application.

We can debate that there are other factors that went into the success of one student vs the other but I feel that most of the significant variables were controlled, somewhat.

 

[calvinNhobbes]

And, to the person who says MIT's courses are "harder", well, that may be. But, MIT does have that open courseware thing majigger, and from what I saw in the ochem section (random sample I took a while back), it was actually easier than my ochem class at a cal state (read: podunk) school. .

Well, ochem is one of the easiest classes at MIT. It's full of biology premeds, they always drag down the curve!

 

[mmmcdowe]

So I edited my original post to clarify a few things. I am not saying that the UC Berkeley student (me) is more prepared, smarter, or a better applicant in any way. In one of my posts I said that my Cal state friend is actually smarter (in my eyes).

The MCAT is a great way to standardize students but a GPA takes anywhere from 3-5 years to maintain with constant hard work - and so does some of the other activities that goes into your application.

We can debate that there are other factors that went into the success of one student vs the other but I feel that most of the significant variables were controlled, somewhat.

What is the race and gender of you and your friend.

 

[DoctaFuture]

Basically this is it. If some guy went to lets say Cal, UPenn, some highly ranked school. If the person gets lets say a 3.4/3.5 and some guy who went to a good state school or perhaps just a normal state school and ended up with a 3.8. I believe the med school won't care about what school they went to. It's not going to make up for that .3/.4 difference. What will matter is if the guy with 3.8 took super basic courses or te bare prereqs for med school while UPenn kid took hard bio classes. I would say if there are small differences between gpa from one school to another, they will look at the "harder school." If it's a decent difference, they won't care. Big gpa = nice.

 

[brke2]

What is the race and gender of you and your friend.

both white and male, both 24 yrs old

 

[calvinNhobbes]

...hard bio classes...

Isn't that an oxymoron?

 

[slowbutsteady]

both white and male, both 24 yrs old

Huh, I was positive you were female.

 

[mic2377]

It is pretty obvious to me, especially looking at the class lists for the schools I have been accepted at, that adcoms definitely favor "name brand" schools. I mean, schools like Duke, Hopkins, Yale, Cornell, Columbia etc. definitely get more love, and are better represented in the student body. Never underestimate the "oooh-ahh" prestige factor. It was also obvious that most of the admitted students from smaller/no-name colleges were in-state.

I personally went to a very well-regarded state school, and I even felt like I didn't get the same love that many other students did from a "higher-ranked" school. Its a fact of life.
One guy I knew went to one of the aforementioned big-name schools, and as an OH resident (OK stats but absolutely repulsive personality and complete lack of social skills) was accepted to every med school in OH, despite lacking any redeeming or outstanding element to his application.

 

[cpants]

It is pretty obvious to me, especially looking at the class lists for the schools I have been accepted at, that adcoms definitely favor "name brand" schools. I mean, schools like Duke, Hopkins, Yale, Cornell, Columbia etc. definitely get more love, and are better represented in the student body. Never underestimate the "oooh-ahh" prestige factor. It was also obvious that most of the admitted students from smaller/no-name colleges were in-state.

I personally went to a very well-regarded state school, and I even felt like I didn't get the same love that many other students did from a "higher-ranked" school. Its a fact of life.
One guy I knew went to one of the aforementioned big-name schools, and as an OH resident (OK stats but absolutely repulsive personality and complete lack of social skills) was accepted to every med school in OH, despite lacking any redeeming or outstanding element to his application.

I wonder how much of it is because of the school name though, and how much of it is because the better applicants end up at big name schools. Compare it to something like the NFL. Do you have to go to a huge name D1 school to get drafted? No. But most of the best athletes end up going to those schools, and thus most of the draftees come from those schools.

 

[brke2]

I wonder how much of it is because of the school name though, and how much of it is because the better applicants end up at big name schools. Compare it to something like the NFL. Do you have to go to a huge name D1 school to get drafted? No. But most of the best athletes end up going to those schools, and thus most of the draftees come from those schools.

wow... great analogy! that is a very interesting idea and it definitely makes sense

 

[dingyibvs]

big names as in top ranked by US.news and stuff? if it is top ranked, what number are they stoping at for the suppoused favortism, #100 for example or 15 lol?

I don't know why you would ask that, since it's pretty obvious that it's a gradual thing rather than having a discrete number cutoff.

 

[tncekm]

I wonder how much of it is because of the school name though, and how much of it is because the better applicants end up at big name schools. Compare it to something like the NFL. Do you have to go to a huge name D1 school to get drafted? No. But most of the best athletes end up going to those schools, and thus most of the draftees come from those schools.

That still doesn't take into account for the fact that there are "equalizing" factors, like the MCAT.

What the adcom's do would be like a recruiter choosing Peyton manning from a D1 school over Peyton manning from a no-name school, despite the fact that he's still Peyton Manning.

 

[slowbutsteady]

That still doesn't take into account for the fact that there are "equalizing" factors, like the MCAT.

What the adcom's do would be like a recruiter choosing Peyton manning from a D1 school over Peyton manning from a no-name school, despite the fact that he's still Peyton Manning.

NOTE TO PREMEDS: You are not Peyton Manning.

There will always be many, many people "better" than you in the applicant pool. And lots of them go to Harvard or Yale.

 

[justinbaily]

Agreed. A very small number go to no-name schools though.

 

[slowbutsteady]

Agreed. A very small number go to no-name schools though.

Agree.

But way to many SDNers think they are "the one." They tell themselves that they go to School X for economic reasons, not because they could not have gone to Yale.

They are poorly informed. Harvard, Yale and others will, and often do, give full rides to qualified students who cannot afford to attend.

And these are grants not loans.

RESULT: The "academic" version of Peyton Manning can go to Harvard if he is good enough to be accepted.

Medical school adcoms know this, even if those on SDN do not. Odds are they will find their Peyton Manning in an Ivy.

 

[thomyorke]

Don't know if anyone's referenced this particular school before but someone pointed it out to me so I thought I'd share...

This is an excerpt from the FAQ lis on LSU Shreveport School of Medicine's official website:

I went to an exclusive school. Does that increase my chances of being accepted?

It is far more important how you did in your studies than where you went to school. Attending a well-known, big-name school does not confer any significant advantage.

Here's this link: http://www.lsuhscshreveport.edu/ind...cation MD Program - Courses & GPA&submenu=FAQ


Now I know this only represents one state medical school and that they aren't as likely to get apps from many schools all over the country but still you can't help but get the message here. Also, as I am currently involved in research at a top 5, Harvard affiliated Hospital, I have met several folks involved in admissions (including my PI!) who echo this sentiment. All other things equal, quality of undergrad is definitely a tiebreaker. However, as has been rehashed over and over and over again on this board, a 3.3 from MIT will NEVER supercede a 3.7 from east podunk community college (all other things equal).

Unfair? We all know that MIT is insanely hard but if you want to be an MD you have to know how competitive admissions are beforehand and consider the intrinsic difficulty of the school you attend in attaining your ultimate goal. Getting into a top school is one thing, but succeeding as a pre-med (where courses are DESIGNED to weed out students) is a whole different ballgame. I think we are all sick of hearing this debate again and again from disgruntled students of schools like MIT: CONGRATS ON GETTING IN BUT IF YOU CAN'T GET A's IN YOUR PRE-MED COURSES MAYBE YOU SELECTED THE WRONG SCHOOL. I'm sick of hearing people blame the difficulty of their UG institution on crappy grades. Simply put: It is just flat out lame.

Btw, before I get attacked, I attended a top 25 school (with grade deflation if anything) but I have never ONCE blamed my 3.4cGPA on this fact. I know that my shortcomings were my own doing and I think it would go a long way towards ending these frivolous debates if others would accept this fact as well.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[dru2002]

That still doesn't take into account for the fact that there are "equalizing" factors, like the MCAT.

What the adcom's do would be like a recruiter choosing Peyton manning from a D1 school over Peyton manning from a no-name school, despite the fact that he's still Peyton Manning.

His analogy still holds. Are you forgetting about the 'equalizer' that is the NFL scouting combine.

 

[tncekm]

NOTE TO PREMEDS: You are not Peyton Manning.

There will always be many, many people "better" than you in the applicant pool. And lots of them go to Harvard or Yale.

Who said they were?

Otherwise, it's generally good advice to tell premeds to be humble going into the application cycle. Although, if they don't go into the app cycle humble, most likely they'll come out humbled.

 

[tncekm]

His analogy still holds. Are you forgetting about the 'equalizer' that is the NFL scouting combine.

I see where you're coming from, but the NFL combine is "invite only" so your argument is invalid. It's not an equalizer if access is limited.

Even if it weren't, would Peyton manning -- given his shot at the combine -- from the D1 school be drafted 5:1 (a slight depression of the OP's numbers, which I believe are fairly representative of what you'd see based on my interactions with other pre-meds / med students from various schools) to the one from the no name school when both had an amazingly good performance? My guess is that they may take his record at the no-name school a little more seriously if his combine performance was amazing AND give the no-name guy a shot. The adcom's, on the other hand, may also take the applicants academic record more seriously, but they'll opt against for elitist reasons.

The difference is this: Because academia is VERY elitist, they love tagging the names of big name schools on their recruiting pamphlets, etc. And given the applicant volume they can afford to do that. The NFL doesn't care about anything other than winning.

 

[familyaerospace]

Being asked to write your own letter is pretty rare. It happens, but not very often.

I'd disagree on that. Right now I have 5 letters (4 of which have already been uploaded to Interfolio) and I wrote the first draft for two of them and the outline for a third. The last scholarship I applied to, I was asked to write all but one of the letters.

 

[Guile]

Still sticking with the bullspit story about all your LORs being written by you and your pal?

Just wanted to say that this is NOT uncommon at all. Had several friends who were asked to write their own letters of recommendation (in medicine and in another field as well). You can bet that they were changed around somewhat, but for a busy professor, this makes the work quite a bit easier. Just because you haven't heard of something happening doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

 

[brke2]

I'd disagree on that. Right now I have 5 letters (4 of which have already been uploaded to Interfolio) and I wrote the first draft for two of them and the outline for a third. The last scholarship I applied to, I was asked to write all but one of the letters.

Just wanted to say that this is NOT uncommon at all. Had several friends who were asked to write their own letters of recommendation (in medicine and in another field as well). You can bet that they were changed around somewhat, but for a busy professor, this makes the work quite a bit easier. Just because you haven't heard of something happening doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

Agreed. I think professors writing a letter just for you without any sort of outline is whats uncommon in my group of friends.

See everyone! I wasn't lying lol

 

[BerlinDude]

I've enrolled in both a large state school and a private 'elite' university.

I can say without doubt that private schools do not offer more academically than public ones, but if you have a spare 100K you can dole out for tuition the name will carry you a long way.

 

[flip26]

Just wanted to say that this is NOT uncommon at all. Had several friends who were asked to write their own letters of recommendation (in medicine and in another field as well). You can bet that they were changed around somewhat, but for a busy professor, this makes the work quite a bit easier. Just because you haven't heard of something happening doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

The vast majority of applicants do not write their own letters. I used the word "rare" which is synonymous with "uncommon." In other words, it is NOT common.

I never said I haven't heard of it happening; there is a prof at my college who routinely does this. I challenged the OP, who concocted a story about how he and his pal wrote all of their letters for all of their profs. If you believe the OP's story, you are quite gullible.

 

[slowbutsteady]

I've enrolled in both a large state school and a private 'elite' university.

I can say without doubt that private schools do not offer more academically than public ones, but if you have a spare 100K you can dole out for tuition the name will carry you a long way.

Again, if you really went to an "elite" college and you couldn't afford to pay, you wouldn't have to.

 

[cpants]

Again, if you really went to an "elite" college and you couldn't afford to pay, you wouldn't have to.

This is not true at all. Financial aid doesn't really work like that. If you are poor you will still get saddled with huge loans, and if your parents are well off but aren't paying your tuition, you are really screwed.

 

[slowbutsteady]

This is not true at all. Financial aid doesn't really work like that. If you are poor you will still get saddled with huge loans, and if your parents are well off but aren't paying your tuition, you are really screwed.

The Ivy League admissions are "need blind." If you are accepted, they will give you adequate grants and loans to attend.

They give NO merit or athletic scholarships. It is forbidden.

Also, several of the Ivies ONLY give grants. So a poor person would get an education and leave with NO debt.

(You are significantly uninformed.)