Does poor MCAT = FAILING USMLE & BOARDS?

[cohen5000]

I've had clinical, administrative, and research medical experiences. My GPA was a 3.43 but I studied nearly obsessively in undergrad. I took the mcat like 7 years after all my pre-req's but couldnt score over a 17. I tried to have accomodations for extra time for the mcat. I provided psych educ reports describing a language processing impairment which makes it difficult to comprehend the passages under a time constraint but it was denied by AAMC. They gave me the explaination that I didnt need extra time because I didnt have accomodations in undergrad and managed to graduate from a selective school.

With such a poor mcat score no med school will accept me. So I was considering applying to a Candian/ Caribbean school that doesnt require MCATS. Even if I go to med school will I have problems passing the USMLE and Board exam because I did so poorly on the mcat?
Any comments or suggestions would be really helpful. thanks!

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[EdLongshanks]

With such a poor mcat score no med school will accept me. So I was considering applying to a Candian/ Caribbean school that doesnt require MCATS. Even if I go to med school will I have problems passing the USMLE and Board exam because I did so poorly on the mcat?
Any comments or suggestions would be really helpful. thanks!

If you get into a medical school in the US (please don't go to the Caribbean, it would be a big mistake for you) and can pass the courses, the you should be able to pass the boards.

But, I question whether you will be able to get into a school in the US. I can't imagine a school taking you with a 17 on the MCAT. You would have to find a way to take it again and get a better score or re-evaluate your plans to choose some other career.

 

[radiodoc99]

Keep on reviewing. COMLEX performance and MCAT are closely linked. Researchers in the current study previously reported significant correlations between MCAT subscores and year 1 and year 2 GPAs and COMLEX–USA Level 1 performance at the New York College of Osteopathic Medicine of the New York Institute of Technology (NYCOM)
http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/104/8/332

 

[TriagePreMed]

I wouldn't ask a pre-med forum if I were you, but if you can't crack over a 17, something is definitely wrong.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I'm relatively anti-Caribbean, however, if you are doing your best to study as hard as possible (which is likely not the case given a 17), then the Caribbean is a good option. If you use google and do a few searches you'll find a number of blogs with folks that scored between 17-22 that went to the Caribbean and were able to come back and practice in the US (meaning that the passed the boards). However, the odds of doing this are against you.

If you get into a medical school in the US (please don't go to the Caribbean, it would be a big mistake for you) and can pass the courses, the you should be able to pass the boards.

But, I question whether you will be able to get into a school in the US. I can't imagine a school taking you with a 17 on the MCAT. You would have to find a way to take it again and get a better score or re-evaluate your plans to choose some other career.

 

[Bernoull]

I've had clinical, administrative, and research medical experiences. My GPA was a 3.43 but I studied nearly obsessively in undergrad. I took the mcat like 7 years after all my pre-req's but couldnt score over a 17. I tried to have accomodations for extra time for the mcat. I provided psych educ reports describing a language processing impairment which makes it difficult to comprehend the passages under a time constraint but it was denied by AAMC. They gave me the explaination that I didnt need extra time because I didnt have accomodations in undergrad and managed to graduate from a selective school.

With such a poor mcat score no med school will accept me. So I was considering applying to a Candian/ Caribbean school that doesnt require MCATS. Even if I go to med school will I have problems passing the USMLE and Board exam because I did so poorly on the mcat?
Any comments or suggestions would be really helpful. thanks!

OP have you taken the MCAT multiple times? How were ur practice scores? I know people who started out with 18s, 19s but are now scoring ~26 on their AAMC practice tests and plan to further improve.

My advice is to re-evaluate ur study methods/materials and retake.

Goodluck

 

[ArkansasRanger]

I would say a poor MCAT could mean you have poor verbal skills, such at chemistry, can't do physics, and don't know a thing about basic biology.

What's that have to do with the USMLE, COMLEX, or boards? You can know one without knowing the other. 🙄

 

[NTF]

I'd certainly be concerned and not just about Step I. Medical training is rife with standardized test-taking, so if you don't solve this problem now it'll come back again and again and at higher financial costs too. Because the AAMC wasn't sympathetic to your language processing issues, you'll have to assume that you're likely to face that kind of resistance in the future.

You'll have to find a way to cope despite your issues. I'd recommend finding a way to deal with it before you enter medical school. Plus, if you manage to do better on the MCAT you'll broaden your options in terms of schools. I don't know if there are specialists who help people with learning disabilities like yours, but that'd be your best bet. Finding a strategy now that works for you to mitigate the impact of your language issues is crucial before you enter school. Trust me you don't want to have to deal with ironing that out during medical school.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'd certainly be concerned and not just about Step I. Medical training is rife with standardized test-taking, so if you don't solve this problem now it'll come back again and again and at higher financial costs too. Because the AAMC wasn't sympathetic to your language processing issues, you'll have to assume that you're likely to face that kind of resistance in the future. ...

Agreed. There is a SLIGHT correlation between how you do on the MCAT and how you do on the Step exams. Not a big correlation, and I certainly wouldn't suggest that if you did poorly on the MCAT your success on the Steps is predetermined. (In fact ongoing studies suggest that the best correlation with how you will do on Step 1 is how you do in your second year of med school, but even that correlation isn't amazing). But Nontradfogie is correct that this is a path full of standardized testing. You will take shelf exams in most third year courses, you will take 3 parts of the Step exam, you will take various inservice and board exams once you pick a specialty. And most fields are now requiring recertification exams every X years as well. So this is going to be a lifelong effort.

Honestly, the MCAT is the easiest of the standardized tests you will take from here on out. It covers very little information compared to each Step exam. You really need to figure out if you can master this one before I would suggest you push on with your medical career offshore. Best to spend a year studying, taking MCAT review courses, and taking practice tests and see if you can improve your score. If you can, then sure, give medicine a shot. If you are saying a 17 is the best you can do, ever, then I'd say forget about it. because the tests only get harder from here on out.

 

[zachjm2]

Agreed. There is a SLIGHT correlation between how you do on the MCAT and how you do on the Step exams. Not a big correlation, and I certainly wouldn't suggest that if you did poorly on the MCAT your success on the Steps is predetermined. (In fact ongoing studies suggest that the best correlation with how you will do on Step 1 is how you do in your second year of med school, but even that correlation isn't amazing). But Nontradfogie is correct that this is a path full of standardized testing. You will take shelf exams in most third year courses, you will take 3 parts of the Step exam, you will take various inservice and board exams once you pick a specialty. And most fields are now requiring recertification exams every X years as well. So this is going to be a lifelong effort.

Honestly, the MCAT is the easiest of the standardized tests you will take from here on out. It covers very little information compared to each Step exam. You really need to figure out if you can master this one before I would suggest you push on with your medical career offshore. Best to spend a year studying, taking MCAT review courses, and taking practice tests and see if you can improve your score. If you can, then sure, give medicine a shot. If you are saying a 17 is the best you can do, ever, then I'd say forget about it. because the tests only get harder from here on out.

There is no way the exams get "harder". The difficulty of the MCAT comes from having to know so much useless material that you will never need to use in the future. Will I need to remember AC/DC circuits and calculate the resistance in a circuit in the ER? Hmm... I wonder if I will have to determine the force of attraction between two planets during my residency... No, the exams in medical school are relevant to what you will be doing in your career and for that reason, the material is naturally more interesting and easier to learn. If you get past the MCAT, you are set. If you struggle with it, caribbean schools or osteopathic schools are an option, but having a hard time with the MCAT can basically mean nothing in the end.

 

[holyhekshler]

My first practice MCAT I scored a 16. A 16! I scored a 33 on the real thing. My first practice test was from the Princeton Review and was also about 5 years after I had taken the pre-reqs. I didn't even understand the questions after I looked at the answers! Anyway, after 6 months of pretty intense (but not insane) prep I was consistently scoring 32-35 on practice exams. The MCAT requires a certain amount of teat taking ability (which I admit I always had) but much much more than that it is just memorizing the material on the exam. This is super time consuming but doable for anyone smart enough to make it through the pre-med coursework with a 3.43 gpa. Definitely focus on getting your MCAT up - give yourself at least 3 months of studying at least a couple hours a day before you take another pracitce test -if you still see no improvement(which is Impossible)then go for plan B. Good luck to you!

 

[InLocoAbsentia]

My first practice MCAT I scored a 16. A 16! I scored a 33 on the real thing.

Wow. Hats off to that!

 

[holyhekshler]

Wow. Hats off to that!

haha thanks! Seriously, I think I tried to forget the material from the pre-reqs as soon as they were done It was just a long relearning process. I know people with similar stories though so it's definitely doable😛

 

[reisub]

I took the mcat like 7 years after all my pre-req's but couldnt score over a 17.

I'm not surprised you scored poorly if you waited 7 years before taking the MCAT. That is more than enough time to forget stuff. Consider retaking the prereqs and taking a review course. You should take last the courses related to the sections you did worst on so they will be fresh in your mind when you take the MCAT.

Given your score, you probably also did poorly on the verbal section. I think that's probably the toughest section to improve. I know people who improved on the science sections so they could regularly score 14-15, but could not improve the verbal section at all.

If you're like the numerous premeds and med students I've met, you probably don't sleep too well. It's very important to sleep well the week before the exam. Language centers of the brain are the first to go when sleep deprived.

 

[ucsfstudents]

Studies have shown a correlation between the MCAT score biological sciences or physical science section and USMLE Step 1 score. There are other factors that come into play more on the USMLE than on the MCAT, for example, rapid recall of unrelated facts. But, unless you fix your "learning issue," you will have a difficult time passing the USMLE. This obviously does not apply to every student. For example, you do not have a verbal reasoning section on the USMLE, and a student who finds themselve with a low overall MCAT score because of a low verbal reasoning might still pull off a decent score on the USMLE. Good luck!

 

[Law2Doc]

There is no way the exams get "harder". The difficulty of the MCAT comes from having to know so much useless material that you will never need to use in the future. Will I need to remember AC/DC circuits and calculate the resistance in a circuit in the ER? Hmm... I wonder if I will have to determine the force of attraction between two planets during my residency... No, the exams in medical school are relevant to what you will be doing in your career and for that reason, the material is naturally more interesting and easier to learn. If you get past the MCAT, you are set. If you struggle with it, caribbean schools or osteopathic schools are an option, but having a hard time with the MCAT can basically mean nothing in the end.

Sorry zach, but they do get harder. The MCAT covers the smallest amount of information you will be standardized tested on from here on out. Most of the other tests you will take (eg Steps1-3 are far more expansive in coverage, and the questions involve far more thinking). The suggestion that the MCAT is harder because it's so much useless information is specious because most of med school is going to be useless information as well -- you are learning background for another couple of years before you get into the meat of the profession. Meaning you are not going to consider biochem or histo or lung physiology or renal acid-base equations particularly important to your career as an obgyn or surgeon, but you are still going to be tested disproportionately on them as compared to your field of interest (the same argument can be made for any specialty). It is all background. Medical school feels the need to make you a generalist before you can specialize, so MOST of the first two years is material you will never ever use outside of med school. It's background, just like taking the basic sciences in underground was background. So no, this doesn't make it any easier for most. The fact that there is more information to cover and the fact that the questions are more complicated and requiring "second step" thinking is going to make these latter tests harder. Don't kid yourself that you are over the mountain. Once you get into med school you are really at base camp -- Everest lies ahead. So honestly, if you can't master the MCAT, I would worry that you are going to have a lot more trouble down the road. I don't think there's huge correlation between the tests, but I do think that there is correlation between the individuals who have trouble with taking tests on things they don't consider particularly important in their career before med school and folks who are going to have trouble with tests that cover even more of this "background" material later. Plus the tests get longer and longer -- Step 3, for example, is two days long.

 

[Law2Doc]

Studies have shown a correlation between the MCAT score biological sciences or physical science section and USMLE Step 1 score. There are other factors that come into play more on the USMLE than on the MCAT, for example, rapid recall of unrelated facts. But, unless you fix your "learning issue," you will have a difficult time passing the USMLE. This obviously does not apply to every student. For example, you do not have a verbal reasoning section on the USMLE, and a student who finds themselve with a low overall MCAT score because of a low verbal reasoning might still pull off a decent score on the USMLE. Good luck!

If you look at the data, the correlation is actually not that impressive. Nothing on the order that I would tell someone they are screwed or in good shape by virtue of having a bad/good MCAT. There is far better correlation with how you do IN MED SCHOOL to how you do on the Step exams. I would say verbal reasoning is actually pretty important for the USMLE, because the questions do get longer and longer and without strong reading skills, you may have difficulty parsing through what is important and what isn't.

 

[EdLongshanks]

If you look at the data, the correlation is actually not that impressive. Nothing on the order that I would tell someone they are screwed or in good shape by virtue of having a bad/good MCAT. There is far better correlation with how you do IN MED SCHOOL to how you do on the Step exams. I would say verbal reasoning is actually pretty important for the USMLE, because the questions do get longer and longer and without strong reading skills, you may have difficulty parsing through what is important and what isn't.

Remember, however, that these studies are done of a selective group - those who scored high enough to get into medical school. There could be no study of people who scored less than 20 on the MCAT who took the boards, because you couldn't gain a significant number of people who took both. There may be a few hundred from Caribbean schools, but there the effect of the quality of school on the board score would outweigh the quality of the student.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Here's my two cents: as someone who did not do that well on the MCAT but did alright in an allopathic school and well on Steps 1-3 and (so far) very well in inservice exams, the bottom line is that people who are good test takers tend to stay good test takers, and so its common sense that people with high MCAT scores continue this pattern on the USMLE. Just understand that the USMLE and the MCAT are two totally different types of exam. I went to medical school with a guy who scored a 39 on the MCAT but his USMLE and medical school performance were mediocre because he was a slacker. Good test takers can game the MCAT, but you cannot game the USMLE. You actually need to study solidly for years to build the foundation needed to fair well.

It's my opinion that the MCAT is a type of test that you are either good at or you are not. It's not so hard as it is 'tricky'. You can take a prep. course and it might help but if you have a very low score after studying earnestly, it can keep otherwise potentially able people out of medical school. The MCAT tests your ability to think and adapt to new, basic information under pressure. The USMLE Step 1(and I don't care who disagrees with me) in fact does reward people who know a lot of isolated facts, and can make connections quickly under pressure. The USMLE Step 2 and 3 are easier. I personally thought the MCAT was the hardest part of the whole process, so don't be too hard on yourself if you're having issues. Realize that a good score might not get you in, but you are pretty much hosed if you can't pull at least an average score.

As for medical school and residency: any old fool can get through if they work hard enough. I'm living proof. The material is not that intellectually challenging. The volume is an issue. Same thing goes for working as a resident - not that intellectually challenging, but physically and emotionally challenging. You have to think and work quickly under extreme time pressure.

This is only my opinion. Good luck!

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Keep on reviewing. COMLEX performance and MCAT are closely linked. Researchers in the current study previously reported significant correlations between MCAT subscores and year 1 and year 2 GPAs and COMLEX–USA Level 1 performance at the New York College of Osteopathic Medicine of the New York Institute of Technology (NYCOM)
http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/104/8/332

Umm..no. Those R squared values are horrible (and I mean horrible) when only taking in MCAT values. The researches had to couple the data with certain Year 1 and Year 2 classes to show ANY sort of signficance.

The only thing this data shows is how a researcher can manipulate any data to make an assumption more feasible.

 

[Law2Doc]

Umm..no. Those R squared values are horrible (and I mean horrible) when only taking in MCAT values. The researches had to couple the data with certain Year 1 and Year 2 classes to show ANY sort of signficance.

The only thing this data shows is how a researcher can manipulate any data to make an assumption more feasible.

Agreed. Pretty much the only people who are buying into this are premeds. If med schools really believed that there is a significant correlation, you would see much sharper cut-offs of acceptable scores, and wouldn't see places giving as much weight to things like interviews, experience and the like. The fact that the best schools often take the dude with the 33 and an amazing life over the dude with a 40 and very routine premed ECs suggests (to me) that med schools are not so impressed with the correlation.

 

[EdLongshanks]

Agreed. Pretty much the only people who are buying into this are premeds. If med schools really believed that there is a significant correlation, you would see much sharper cut-offs of acceptable scores, and wouldn't see places giving as much weight to things like interviews, experience and the like. The fact that the best schools often take the dude with the 33 and an amazing life over the dude with a 40 and very routine premed ECs suggests (to me) that med schools are not so impressed with the correlation.

I suspect that people who score at 30 and above on the MCAT are capable of learning from classes and experiences and taking tests. Therefore, their study habits in med school are going to determine their scores a couple of years later, not whether they could quickly and accurately count the chiral centers of a complex bio-molecule or memorized the properties of convex lenses.

However for people below 20, I'm not so sure that, as a group, they are likely to be able to absorb all of the knowledge of med school. (lawyers, please note the qualifiers in that sentence). I think that it is reasonable for medical schools to not even consider these applications until the applicant has proven that he can study and take a general knowledge standardized test.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

I suspect that people who score at 30 and above on the MCAT are capable of learning from classes and experiences and taking tests. Therefore, their study habits in med school are going to determine their scores a couple of years later, not whether they could quickly and accurately count the chiral centers of a complex bio-molecule or memorized the properties of convex lenses.

However for people below 20, I'm not so sure that, as a group, they are likely to be able to absorb all of the knowledge of med school. (lawyers, please note the qualifiers in that sentence). I think that it is reasonable for medical schools to not even consider these applications until the applicant has proven that he can study and take a general knowledge standardized test.

I agree with a below 20 there is probably some sort of understanding barrier, whether it is english being a second language or just not being able to retain anything.

Of course there is no study done on these because N would =2 for those sub 20 that end up taking the COMLEX

 

[Law2Doc]

... I think that it is reasonable for medical schools to not even consider these applications until the applicant has proven that he can study and take a general knowledge standardized test.

Which is why the number of folks below a 20 in US allo med schools is pretty minuscule. There is really no question that OP needs to figure out why they cannot master this test before going forward, because it is but one standardized test in a very long line of standardized tests in this career, and the subsequent ones are harder to retake without career repercussions. Try an MCAT review course, take lots of practice tests and only when you are scoring substantially higher should OP retake the MCAT. However to shrug it off and go to the caribbean without figuring out where s/he went wrong is not the right approach IMHO.

 

[Old Grunt]

Agreed. There is a SLIGHT correlation between how you do on the MCAT and how you do on the Step exams. Not a big correlation, and I certainly wouldn't suggest that if you did poorly on the MCAT your success on the Steps is predetermined. (In fact ongoing studies suggest that the best correlation with how you will do on Step 1 is how you do in your second year of med school, but even that correlation isn't amazing). But Nontradfogie is correct that this is a path full of standardized testing. You will take shelf exams in most third year courses, you will take 3 parts of the Step exam, you will take various inservice and board exams once you pick a specialty. And most fields are now requiring recertification exams every X years as well. So this is going to be a lifelong effort.

Honestly, the MCAT is the easiest of the standardized tests you will take from here on out. It covers very little information compared to each Step exam. You really need to figure out if you can master this one before I would suggest you push on with your medical career offshore. Best to spend a year studying, taking MCAT review courses, and taking practice tests and see if you can improve your score. If you can, then sure, give medicine a shot. If you are saying a 17 is the best you can do, ever, then I'd say forget about it. because the tests only get harder from here on out.

I guess I can chime in on this when I get my board scores back. I didn't smoke the MCAT. However, Step 1 is really over completely different material, and I think it's asinine for anyone to make a claim that there is a strong correlation between the two tests. I have friends who I know had modest MCAT scores and smoked boards.

However, it's also a no brainer to say that people who are inherently smart or good on standardized tests will do better on all standardized tests.

 

[Old Grunt]

Umm..no. Those R squared values are horrible (and I mean horrible) when only taking in MCAT values. The researches had to couple the data with certain Year 1 and Year 2 classes to show ANY sort of signficance.

The only thing this data shows is how a researcher can manipulate any data to make an assumption more feasible.

Also, if I am not mistaken, I believe that a lot of those studies are conducted by the people that administer the MCAT.

Conflict of interest much?

At any rate, here is a study about Step 1 Failure for the interested.

http://www.stfm.org/fmhub/fm2010/February/Jira105.pdf