Does the medical school application process keep poor people from applying?

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babyruth

Babyruth
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Just thought I would open up some new discussion.

Being from a middle class family, I didn't really have to worry about the costs of applying and paying to go to interviews. My other half, who comes from a very low SES, mentioned to me that his grad school programs, a PhD program, do not require a very high application fee and do not even have you come in for an interview. They also give you, if you do very well on the GRE/LSAT, full tuition and a teaching stipend.

As many of you know, applying to medical school was very expensive, especially if you had to travel to very many schools like I did. There would have been no way that we could have afforded to do this for him.

My question is, is this profession selective, either with knowing or without knowing, just on the basis of fees and costs to people of higher SES?
 
My costs were MCAT, Application, $50 fee for secondary plus $250 to hold my spot. I am unemployed. People in undergrad who need to go though the process should plan ahead and take out extra student loans to pay for it. My family did not contribute one penny and I am sure there are many others in this situation. There are fee waivers for those that can prove financial hardships.
 
medical school is different from most other graduate programs because as a physician you will be earning so much more than most Ph.Ds that you can repay loans. In most circumstances, your lifestyle will be much better than a Ph.D. Also, you get a stipend to teach or do research. You end up paying your way though a Ph.D program because you do research for them and that in turn gets them grants. You do neither of these in medical school as a requirement.

Yeah, some grad schools don't require an interview...but if medical school didn't require an interview...it would be real bad. Perhaps particular grad schools can decide whether they want a student based on their academic merit alone...since, it is mostly academic and intellectual upon which they will base their opinions....but in medicine it is just not your intellectual qualities but also your character and motivation that is equally valued.

Also consider....law school and business school (as both are also forms of graduate school. I don't think either of them offer stipends.

IMHO
 
I think there are some physicians that would disagree with you on the lifestyle aspect! 🙂

Another thing to consider is that PhD programs are typically 5 or more years while med/law/MBA schools are 4 or less (usually). And yes, I know physicians have to do residencies, but researchers generally have to do "post-docs" for which the average length is 4 years (according to New Scientist). I think that may be why grad students get stipend more than anything else.

-X

Pooh Chong said:
medical school is different from most other graduate programs because as a physician you will be earning so much more than most Ph.Ds that you can repay loans. In most circumstances, your lifestyle will be much better than a Ph.D. Also, you get a stipend to teach or do research. You end up paying your way though a Ph.D program because you do research for them and that in turn gets them grants. You do neither of these in medical school as a requirement.

Yeah, some grad schools don't require an interview...but if medical school didn't require an interview...it would be real bad. Perhaps particular grad schools can decide whether they want a student based on their academic merit alone...since, it is mostly academic and intellectual upon which they will base their opinions....but in medicine it is just not your intellectual qualities but also your character and motivation that is equally valued.

Also consider....law school and business school (as both are also forms of graduate school. I don't think either of them offer stipends.

IMHO
 
I don't think that is the case. I know a number of people that were able to apply for a reduction in cost through the application service. IMHO it is more difficult for someone from the middle class that just exceeds the standards for these reductions to afford the application fees. As someone already stated, one has to plan for these things ahead of time and either take out additional student loan money or save money back.
 
It is very easy to say that they should just take out more loans or "put money away." But as you know, there is a limit to student loans through the government, which part of it goes to your undergraduate education. If you don't have credit or have bad credit, you can't get additional loans from outside sources. It still doesn't account for the price of travel costs. I guess you just better hope that you can afford to drive where you interview, if you afford even that, and that those schools will take you. And what if you don't have a car? No matter what you can make afterwards, it still doesn't account for the costs to attend. Interviewing does not alsways weed out those with character flaws and for motivation. You have to be highly motivated for any graduate education, more so for a profession that will not make a alot of money... During interviewing time, you put on your game face and try to make yourself sell to the colleges you are applying to. Those rare few that don't are an exception and are noted. But this isn't the norm.
 
While all of us would like to believe that we got into (or will get into) med school based solely on merit, I think that more affluent students have certain advantages. Applying to med school can be very stressful, even without worrying about where all the application money is coming from. Financial aid is usually distributed at the beginning of school... this does nothing to help with the cost of studying for and taking the MCAT, primary and secondary application fees, interview costs (including appropriate wardrobe choices), and "move-in" costs- like rent and utilities before the financial aid arrives. There is also evidence that standardized tests (like the MCAT) do a better job of predicting socio-economic status than performance in med school or success as a doctor.
So while "poor" students may be able to get into and attend med school, I think it is significantly easier for more affluent students to do so.
 
Thank you for making my point🙂
 
babyruth said:
Just thought I would open up some new discussion.

Being from a middle class family, I didn't really have to worry about the costs of applying and paying to go to interviews. My other half, who comes from a very low SES, mentioned to me that his grad school programs, a PhD program, do not require a very high application fee and do not even have you come in for an interview. They also give you, if you do very well on the GRE/LSAT, full tuition and a teaching stipend.

First of all, what is a "middle class family"? What is a "SES"? Imagine if med schools gave their students--most of whom do not perform research to increase the research grant money coming in--"full tuition and a teaching stipend." Do you think med schools would exist for too long?

Again, as has been implied before: grad school (PhD) does not = medical school. Prime example is the fact that most MD or DO/PhD students do basic science studies for 2 years, go off and do their PhD research, then come back in for clinical years.

babyruth said:
As many of you know, applying to medical school was very expensive, especially if you had to travel to very many schools like I did. There would have been no way that we could have afforded to do this for him.

Again, implicit in this argument is the idea that one needs to apply to and "travel to very many schools". Don't you think that if his motivation was to become a physician, he would have scraped for 3 years to collect enough money to apply, travel and get into medical school...even with fee waivers and application assistance?

babyruth said:
My question is, is this profession selective, either with knowing or without knowing, just on the basis of fees and costs to people of higher SES?

Again, I don't know what "SES" means, but the argument is somehow going like this: is the dirt mound "selective" to the different ants because of its nature? The mound isn't going to change much. The ants either go climbing it, or figure out a way around/through/under it, or they retreat. The ant standing there and, pardon the personification, pondering the dirt mound's "mound-ness" is less productive than the ant turning away. And, of course, there are routes already in place to assist the different ants over the dirt mound into "greener pastures." 🙂
 
Is there a study that shows the MCAT with a bias towards socio-economic status? I'm sure there are for tests like the SAT...because it is not difficult to see that first generation immigrants might do poorly on Verbal sections....or students from poor neighborhoods might do poorly on verbal if their type of casual english is not up to the par of that from more affluent neighborhoods. BUT, the MCAT does not test those areas...it tests actual science and reasoning with the verbal. To do well on the verbal you do not need to know a lot of SAT type words...but rather show understanding and reasoning ability.

The OP said nothing about how the MCAT may be discriminatory....and I don't think it is.

I'll grant you that the cost is high to apply, but so what. If you don't have the family wealth to resource from...then you have to earn it yourself or find a means that will allow you apply.
 
mamitch4 said:
There is also evidence that standardized tests (like the MCAT) do a better job of predicting socio-economic status than performance in med school or success as a doctor.

Going to have to call bull*** on this one. I did quite well on the MCAT, but am also quite poor. Some of my pre-med friends who are affluent didn't do so well. Maybe other tests indicate status, but not the MCAT. I would need to see hard statistical evidence to believe this.
 
Of course its difficult for low SEM people (SEM = Social economic status) to apply to medical school. I applied as a married student who was the first person in my family to go to college. During my undergrad I worked full time had a house and made more money than my parents and in-laws. However because I worked full time I didn't qualify for any of the decreased application fees. Also because I had to work full time I wasn't a super all star in school. Just another average white guy applying to medical school. Meaning that I had to apply to many schools. I ended up interviewing at 5 schools, and I don't see me paying off the traveling expenses associated with those interviews until well after residency. And because I have that debt now, medical school finances are all that more difficult. I know cry me a river 🙂 It all worked out for me and in ten years I won't care about the money. But it is a good point that poor people have a tougher time. However it is also true that if you want it bad enough you will find a way. Take a year off and work, or work your ass off during school to save up the money. Either way if you want it bad enough, finances should not be an issue in applying to medical school.
 
As other posts pointed out, if you are from a lower SES (socioeconomic status) and you want it badly enough, you are going to have to EARN the money to pay each expenditure associated with the premed process, from applications and prep course fees to interview travel, moving expenses, and security deposits on top of your monthly rent, gas, groceries, utilities, etc.

This is likely to add a few years to the time between college graduation and med school matriculation, particularly since these arent likely to be high-earning years. Folks with an eye on the overall federal aid cap of $189,900 may be less likely to build the cost of all this into their undergrad borrowing, and more likely to try earning as they go, since they are going to be very conscious of the med school year when the fed money runs out. Plus its almost a given that once you leave school, things will come up, unanticipated expenses or life transitions, and you won't make it through the app process as fast as you thought you would.

So, if there is a bias, it is that those without upper middle class parents are far more likely to find themselves becoming nontraditional applicants, and far more likely to find themselves rejected by allopathic schools because of it, unless their GPA's and MCAT's are HIGHER than those of the upper-middle class younger people they are competing with for admissions.

The poorer folks still get to be doctors - they are just more likely to go the DO route, since DO programs tend to be a little more nontraditional friendly, and consequently level the admissions playing field a little more evenly between older and younger applicants.
 
Drfting sun, in reference to your anthill analogy---

You're almost implying that the institutions are unable or unwilling to change. This is precisely my point. Don't you think the institution, the application process, needs change? Just because they have been doing it this way for many years does not mean that the tradition should hold. PhD schools are just as selective, if not more so, yet they don't feel the need to to pull in all of these application fees. And I doubt that the research monay one student brings in is equal to our application fees and the cost of our tuition.

I guess your analogy struck me as disturbing because it was almost like you were saying either these poor people need to buck up, save, and quit complaining... An analogy similar to yours would be if, during the 60's, a black person was trying to enter the white working force, they should just change to be more like a white candidate. Or that a female should act more like a man when trying to negotiate through the "old boy" system of medicine. Maybe we should bulldoze the anthill or give these people a ladder so they are on equal footing with everyone else? Like the black person or the female, I don't think it is very easy for them to change who they are.

In reference to the MCAT being biased, it isn't always the test that discriminates; it's the education to get to the test that is discriminating. Poor neighborhoods=poor highschools=less likely to get into college or even community college (not to mention expensive private colleges)=less likely to score high on a test such as this.

I really liked the comment about DO school being open to more non-traditional students. Maybe that is why we are such dedicated doctors!🙂
 
I know the mcat had a reduced fee option, and some schools will work with students about delaying or canceling deposits/fees but these handouts don't seem to be doing what they were designed to do. I don't think this is an issue of individual students not having the foresight or the determination to save for the med school application process, it is a social justice issue. While I don?t think I could go as far as to say that the application process is intentionally designed to keep a certain class/race/gender out. I will say that it needs an overhaul to first catch up with today?s students, technology, and medicine. There needs to be a reduction in fees, if the application process is computerized then why are the fees the same as when the process was much more labor intensive? I would like to know where all these checks I keep writing are actually going.
 
babyruth said:
In reference to the MCAT being biased, it isn't always the test that discriminates; it's the education to get to the test that is discriminating. Poor neighborhoods=poor highschools=less likely to get into college or even community college (not to mention expensive private colleges)=less likely to score high on a test such as this.

What are you suggesting? You are essentially saying students from poor neighborhoods are poor students and thus will due poorly on the MCAT. You want medical school admissions to accept students who do poorly on the MCAT? If someone is a poor student, then there is nothing anyone should/could due to correct this at the med school admissions level. You need to keep your theory going....kids from poor neighborhoods and will become poor students and will do poorly on the MCAT and will do poorly in medical school and will become bad physicians.

A lot of PhD programs that give stipends will get their money back from students teaching or working in a lab. If you don't think so then you gotta prove it - universities at the graduate level will not, knowingly, lose money on you.
 
My point was to demonstrate that the obstacles are many for poor people. I am not implying that poor are not intelligent, just that the education they receive is not as well funded as schools in a rich suburb. I was also trying to make a point that the MCAT is not necessarily discriminatory due to the way it is printed, whether it is or not--I don't have any evidence on that, but on how well prepared these people are before they get there and what help they receive along the way. As mbhbrown pointed out, this is a social structure issue (lack of money and ability to save money, lack of positive role models, lack of control and a constructive environment; all facets of life are harder when you have these obstacles to overcome--to deny this is to deny these people and their hardships).

Also, would I want a lower scoring person as my doctor. If they were dedicated to their community and to their profession, then yes. I think that doctors who come from diverse backgrounds are much more equipped to deal with real life situations than those people that have been coddled or sheltered from real life. I would much rather have someone working at an inner city hospital who knows what it is like to work and live in the inner city than someone who doesn't and/or who doesn't sympathize with the plights of the people they are treating.

I want to point out that it is easy to insulate yourself from these issues; like I did when first setting out. But look around you, who do you sit next to and where do they come from?

To end on a positive note, so to speak, I thought a quote is in order:
"A meager bed warms me more than an opulant one, for I am jealous of my poverty."--Friedrich Nietzsche (meaning he is and always will be a person of his roots, and even with money, will not forget it).
 
My point was to demonstrate that the obstacles are many for poor people. I am not implying that poor are not intelligent, just that the education they receive is not as well funded as schools in a rich suburb. I was also trying to make a point that the MCAT is not necessarily discriminatory due to the way it is printed, whether it is or not--I don't have any evidence on that, but on how well prepared these people are before they get there and what help they receive along the way. As mbhbrown pointed out, this is a social structure issue (lack of money and ability to save money, lack of positive role models, lack of control and a constructive environment; all facets of life are harder when you have these obstacles to overcome--to deny this is to deny these people and their hardships).

Also, would I want a lower scoring person as my doctor. If they were dedicated to their community and to their profession, then yes. I think that doctors who come from diverse backgrounds are much more equipped to deal with real life situations than those people that have been coddled or sheltered from real life. I would much rather have someone working at an inner city hospital who knows what it is like to work and live in the inner city than someone who doesn't and/or who doesn't sympathize with the plights of the people they are treating.

I want to point out that it is easy to insulate yourself from these issues; like I did when first setting out. But look around you, who do you sit next to and where do they come from?

To end on a positive note, so to speak, I thought a quote is in order:
"A meager bed warms me more than an opulant one, for I am jealous of my poverty."--Friedrich Nietzsche (meaning he is and always will be a person of his roots, and even with money, will not forget it).

Thank you, Babyruth, for your commentary on this topic. It is comforting know that there are those out there who are empathetic and understanding of the underprivileged.

You made so many spot on points. It is discouraging to see the retorts.

Medical schools really ought to take these points into consideration, and do something about this dilemma.

You have no idea how encouraging your words were. THANK YOU! People like you give me hope.
 
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But I am sure he/she would have appreciated your comments.🙂
 
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Pretty sure you can't claim underprivileged with a bachelors degree. If you want it get a part time job to pay for or it, no credit needed for that. Plus while in med school there are many programs that will pay for you if you work for them after residency.
 
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