Does the military actually provide a good education?

[EricTan]

I have been lucky enough to have been accepted at USUHS as well as some regular medical schools. The military sounds like a very good fit for me, and I want to do it, but not just for the money.

However, there are many different ways to end up a military doctor, and I want to ensure that I get a good, well-rounded medical education. Can USUHS really provide as good an education as, say, Tufts or USC? Are military residencies as good as civilian ones?

Any advice or insight is appreciated!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

I have been lucky enough to have been accepted at USUHS as well as some regular medical schools. The military sounds like a very good fit for me, and I want to do it, but not just for the money.

However, there are many different ways to end up a military doctor, and I want to ensure that I get a good, well-rounded medical education. Can USUHS really provide as good an education as, say, Tufts or USC? Are military residencies as good as civilian ones?

Any advice or insight is appreciated!

It is important that you do it "not just for the money" but even if the money were really crappy. Because it is. Your motivation really needs to be a desire to serve in the military and not motivated by money AT ALL for you to be happy down the road. Most of us thought a lot like you. "Wow, they'll pay for my school! I'm as patriotic as the next guy and it sounds like a cool adventure!" So I'm not just doing it for the money."

IMHO USUHS is an inferior medical school and most military residencies are inferior to the better residencies in just about every field. Good doctors can come out of mediocre schools/residencies, but why choose an uphill battle from the beginning if you have the choice?

If your predominant concern is quality of education, going the military route is probably a poor choice for you. If your predominant concern is a desire to serve in the military, you will find that if you work hard, USUHS and a typical military residency will be adequate to reach your goals.

Good luck.

 

[Galo]

It is important that you do it "not just for the money" but even if the money were really crappy. Because it is. Your motivation really needs to be a desire to serve in the military and not motivated by money AT ALL for you to be happy down the road. Most of us thought a lot like you. "Wow, they'll pay for my school! I'm as patriotic as the next guy and it sounds like a cool adventure!" So I'm not just doing it for the money."

IMHO USUHS is an inferior medical school and most military residencies are inferior to the better residencies in just about every field. Good doctors can come out of mediocre schools/residencies, but why choose an uphill battle from the beginning if you have the choice?

If your predominant concern is quality of education, going the military route is probably a poor choice for you. If your predominant concern is a desire to serve in the military, you will find that if you work hard, USUHS and a typical military residency will be adequate to reach your goals.

Good luck.

I wholeheartedly agree with this assesment. You may not be able to train in the specialty you select depending on what branch you go into, and may be forced to do GMO/Flight surgery for a minimum of two yrs. So add that to your 8 yr commitment, (? is that right for USHUS), plus the time you have to spend in a military residency, and you're looking at signing up and being in the military for up to 15 yrs depending on the residency you may get to do. I also want to add that depending on the field you choose, you may actually not be able to practice it to the fullest ability depending on where you get placed. Military medicine today is just not a good place to practice medicine.

Recommend you read these forums thoroughly, and call up as many AD physicians as you can.

If you can go through civilian medical school and training, and still want to be in the military, they'll take you with open arms.

 

[DeadCactus]

USUHS is the best choice out there if your goal is to be a military physician and practice military medicine. There are much better civilian schools if your goal is to be a well-rounded physician who served in the military.

Military service as a physician is a spectrum. On one side you have the USUHS-career military physicians, on the other side you've got civilian trained physicians serving in the Guard. In the middle you've got people along the lines of HPSP folks. You've got to figure out where on the spectrum you want to be...

In my opinion anyway.

 

[Zulu451]

Eric:
First, you have to take everything here with a heavy dose of perspective. People feel very passionately for or against the military, and military medicine. Galo and ActiveDuty are both experienced physicians with the military and their counsel should be taken seriously. Their history on this board has been generally very negative about their experiences with the military. Believe it or not, other people actually have good experiences in the military. They are not generally spending their time trolling medical student bulletin boards. It is good to have people tell you about the negatives, so you can make a decision with your eyes wide open. However, I don't think anyone going into medicine has any idea about what their practice will be like in the 7-10 years it will take to complete their training.

That said, the education you will get in whatever medical school you go to has little to do with the school and everything to do with what you put into it. It will be what you make of it. Plain and simple. A big name place is great, but means little when it comes to taking care of the patient right in front of you. Bleeding does not stop when you tell the bloody mess where you went to school and the pathology doesn't magically go away because you impressed it with your diploma. I work with very good doctors who went to no name schools. As well as doctors who aren't worth crap who went to big name schools.

I can only speak for my experience at a military residency program and in my specialty. In the past 8 years, only 9 programs in the entire country have had 100% ABS pass rates on first attempt. Of those 9, two are Army programs: BAMC and Walter Reed. Sorry, Tufts, Harvard, MGH, blah blah blah, are not on that list. You can get a good medical education in the military. Again, it is your education and you will get out of it what you put into it.

I also disagree with Cactus. There are many, many entry points into military medicine. USUHS is not necessarily the best entry point for military medicine. It depends on what you want with your career. Are you going to do you pay back and get out? Do you want to stay for a career? (Then USUHS is a good option.) If you were like me, then you really have no clue what you want and even if you think you do it will likely change a few times in the interim. The military will not turn you away.

My 2 bits, is to choose the path that will afford you the greatest amount of agency and ability to choose. Choose your specialty, location of training, terms of enlistment etc. If you go to USUHS, they have you from square one and you have to play by their rules. HPSP, you have a little more wiggle room, but not much. There are several loan repayment programs where you go to the residency of your choosing, specialty of your choosing and then go through the military to pay back loans and so forth. Keep all the options on your table, the earlier you sign, the more you play by their rules.

 

[IgD]

However, there are many different ways to end up a military doctor, and I want to ensure that I get a good, well-rounded medical education. Can USUHS really provide as good an education as, say, Tufts or USC? Are military residencies as good as civilian ones?

On the surface, USUHS looks like a good deal. The problem is, the government is going to get its pound of flesh. The question you need to ask is what is the catch?

The catch is the 7 year payback after you graduate medical school and a requirement that you complete a military residency training program. In my opinion, this lengthy payback can also increase the likelihood that you would be required to complete a GMO tour. In addition, you have to complete a military residency so that would limit your specialty choice.

7 years is a long time, you might get married and have children and your spouse might be frustrated with the living situation.

The are a number of different pathways to enter military medicine. I might recommend HPSP because they payback is only 4 years or the FAP program where you complete a civilian residency first and then have a payback.

 

[Perrotfish]

The catch is the 7 year payback after you graduate medical school and a requirement that you complete a military residency training program. In my opinion, this lengthy payback can also increase the likelihood that you would be required to complete a GMO tour. In addition, you have to complete a military residency so that would limit your specialty choice.

7 years is a long time, you might get married and have children and your spouse might be frustrated with the living situation.

I've heard USUHS is a very good school, but I just see no reason to accept a 10 year (or even 7 year) obligation when you could have a 4 year obligation for a scholarship worth about the same amount. Even if you decide to make a career out of the military, you're giving away a fortune in retention bonuses.

The FAP program does give you a lot more freedom, but it's also worth a lot less. USUHS seems to give you less freedom than HPSP AND pay less, so I'm not seeing the advantage.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Zulu,

I guess posting over and over helps to balance out the naysayers.

Seriously, do you really believe that military surgical programs are better than the ones you listed? Tell me something, in your residency, did you "count" cases in which other residents participated and also counted the case? How did your case numbers compare to the residents in the programs you mentioned? How many major cases did you do as a chief/senior?

I'm more and more scared of military-trained surgeons. I have a vested interest, too. My profession inevitably has complications and we need surgeons to bail us out. Where I trained, when I had a complication, the surgeons always saved my @ss. Now I'm afraid they will make things worse.
I don't care about ABSITE scores or board pass rates. I just care that when there is a job to do, we have surgeons that are not so risk averse that they will go do it and can do it well.

OP,
USUHS is a typical allopathic medical school. I think its probably a perfectly fine choice. The issue is that the choice to go to USUHS makes a series of additional choices for you (residency availability, practice location, etc) that you may not be ready to make.

 

[silverhorse84]

I have been lucky enough to have been accepted at USUHS as well as some regular medical schools. The military sounds like a very good fit for me, and I want to do it, but not just for the money.

However, there are many different ways to end up a military doctor, and I want to ensure that I get a good, well-rounded medical education. Can USUHS really provide as good an education as, say, Tufts or USC? Are military residencies as good as civilian ones?

Any advice or insight is appreciated!

So I realize I don't have as much experience as some others that have posted before me. However, in the past year I did apply to and get accepted by a couple of schools and chose USUHS over the civilian school route (and if your mention of USC is in reference to southern california, I chose USUHS over that USC). Feel free to PM me if you're interested in why I chose the way I did.

 

[Galo]

Eric:
First, you have to take everything here with a heavy dose of perspective. People feel very passionately for or against the military, and military medicine. Galo and ActiveDuty are both experience physicians with the military. Their history on this board has been generally very negative about their experiences with the military. Believe it or not, other people actually have good experiences in the military. They are not generally spending their time trolling medical student bulletin boards. It is good to have people tell you about the negatives, so you can make a decision with your eyes wide open. However, I don't thing anyone going into medicine has any idea about what their practice will be like in the 7-10 years it takes to complete training right now.

That said, the education you will get in whatever medical school you go to has little to do with the school and everything to do with what you put into it. Basically, it is what you make of it. Plain and simple. A big name place is great, but means little when it comes to taking care of the patient right in front of you. Bleeding does not stop when you tell it where you went to school and the pathology doesn't magically go away because you impressed it with your diploma. I work with very good doctors who went to no name schools. A doctors who aren't worth crap who went to big name schools.

I can only speak for my experience at a military residency program and in my specialty. In the past 8 years, only 9 programs in the entire country have had 100% ABS pass rates on first attempt. Of those 9 two are Army programs: BAMC and Walter Reed. Sorry, Tufts, Harvard, MGH, blah blah blah, are not on that list. You can get a good medical education in the military. Again, it is your education and you will get out of it what you put into it.

I also disagree with Cactus. There are many, many entry points into military medicine. They will not turn you away.

My 2 bits, is to choose the path that will afford you the greatest amount of agency and ability to choose. Choose your specialty, location of training, terms of enlistment etc. If you go to USUHS, they have you from square one and you have to play by their rules. HPSP, you have a little more wiggle room, but not much. There are several loan repayment programs where you go to the residency of your choosing, specialty of your choosing and then go through the military to pay back loans and so forth. Keep all the options on your table, the earlier you sign, the more you play by their rules.

Its good to see someone who says had a good experience "trolling" on medical student boards to conteract our bad experiences. You must be in a subspecialty of surgery? Major medical center?? Been deployed yet??

Your experience and mine may be totally different. The majority of surgeons I know had POOR experiences. I hope yours remain good. I also think its decent of you to point out to the OP the options, their restraints, and their benefits.

Clearly we main remain divided on the opinion of what a military surgical education is like. As an attending at a "major AF medical center", it was no better than an average middle city program, and if it was not for the civilian part, it would have been certainly a bottom tier program for many of the reasons it was difficult to practice as a surgeon there.

Maintaining civility is always nice.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

That said, the education you will get in whatever medical school you go to has little to do with the school and everything to do with what you put into it. Basically, it is what you make of it. Plain and simple. A big name place is great, but means little when it comes to taking care of the patient right in front of you.

I can only speak for my experience at a military residency program and in my specialty. In the past 8 years, only 9 programs in the entire country have had 100% ABS pass rates on first attempt. Of those 9 two are Army programs: BAMC and Walter Reed. Sorry, Tufts, Harvard, MGH, blah blah blah, are not on that list. You can get a good medical education in the military. Again, it is your education and you will get out of it what you put into it.

First, yes your education is affected more by you than where you train. But it is a whole lot easier to learn medicine in places where the faculty is long-term, happy with their job, and doesn't deploy for 6-12 months every year or two. It is possible to go to USUHS and still be a good doctor. I think it is much harder though.

This board pass rate thing is a bunch of crap. The military LOVES any type of standardized tests, and every residency program I've known of or been associated with loves to spout off how good it is based on these standardized tests. However, residency in particular but also medical school, is about so much more than the tests. First, the tests are generally considered pass/fail and represent a minimal general knowledge a practitioner must possess to be safe/competent. They're not tough, although the general surgery one is generally considered a bit tougher than other specialties. It isn't unusual to fail the GS one once without being a *****. Twice? Gotta start wondering. A residency program that likes to brag about its scores is a residency program that spends a lot of time teaching to the test. If you're spending time learning how to do well on a standardized test, you're not spending it learning how to be a good doctor. Second, residency is about seeing as many sick patients as possible. Any military residency is by necessity handicapped by the lack of sick patients in the military system. Its just a fact of life. They don't let you in if you're sick, they throw you out if you get sick, you're generally young (and thus, so is your family), and once you're old, they try to push you off on civilian hospitals so medicare will pay. You're going to see sicker patients in the civilian world in just about all specialties.

If you're going to spend 3-5 years torturing yourself as a resident, wouldn't it be nice to spend the time maximizing your ability to take care of sick patients rather than focusing on some test that has little to do with your ability to render excellent care to patients in a competent, compassionate manner?

I did not go to USUHS. I did not do a military residency. I did teach at a military residency. I associate daily with USUHS and non-USUHS grads and with docs who graduated from military and civilian residencies. If I could go back and do it all again, I would do all I could to make sure I trained as a civilian.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[IgD]

So I realize I don't have as much experience as some others that have posted before me. However, in the past year I did apply to and get accepted by a couple of schools and chose USUHS over the civilian school route (and if your mention of USC is in reference to southern california, I chose USUHS over that USC). Feel free to PM me if you're interested in why I chose the way I did.

Why don't you hit reply and tell us all why you chose USUHS over USC? I think we are all curious how you arrived at that decision.

 

[BigNavyPedsGuy]

Second, residency is about seeing as many sick patients as possible. Any military residency is by necessity handicapped by the lack of sick patients in the military system. Its just a fact of life. They don't let you in if you're sick, they throw you out if you get sick, you're generally young (and thus, so is your family), and once you're old, they try to push you off on civilian hospitals so medicare will pay. You're going to see sicker patients in the civilian world in just about all specialties.

You forgot your pediatric and OB caveat. Our specialties don't struggle from having young, healthy, active duty members. Being young and healthy actually makes them breed even more.

But I'm a big fan of having options and going to USUHS closes off a lot of options.

 

[Lavanya82]

I'm a current USUHS student without any prior military background. USUHS is consistently ranked in the top 50 medical schools in the nation. Additionally, the USUHS/Military community has some of the world's foremost experts in every field imaginable and offers training in anything you might possibly want to pursue. I suspect the commenters aren't too familiar with our curriculum or quality of students.

Secondly, you should judge USUHS by the same standards as you judge other medical schools. The only difference academically is that our curriculum adds military medicine topics, so we have an additional 800 hours of instruction time that civilian medical schools do not have. This includes field instruction (learning how to put in IV's literally in the middle of the field) as well as classroom instruction on tertiary care. The committment is 7 additional years which is justified in part because we are Active Duty status, and therefore paid a higher salary than HPSP students.

I think my choosing to go there is testament enough to my trust in its education. I am among a wonderful group of students and am constantly challenged by my ambitious and capable peers. However, I would urge you to see for yourself rather than listening to strangers' commentary. I'm proud that I'm already on the track to do humanitarian work as a physician which is the original reason why I even wanted to pursue medicine to begin with. I hope that whatever path you choose, you will be equally proud and satisfied with your choice. Best of luck.

 

[IgD]

I think my choosing to go there is testament enough to my trust in its education. I am among a wonderful group of students and am constantly challenged by my ambitious and capable peers. However, I would urge you to see for yourself rather than listening to strangers' commentary...

Strangers who are board certified who have experienced every aspect of military medicine from medical school, internship, residency and post-training payback. What do we know!

 

[Gastrapathy]

Strangers who are board certified who have experienced every aspect of military medicine from medical school, internship, residency and post-training payback. What do we know!

Come on now. We should be glad that our medical students retain their optimism. And she's right, the OP should try to see for himself.

 

[pgg]

Why don't you hit reply and tell us all why you chose USUHS over USC? I think we are all curious how you arrived at that decision.

Heh, I declined USC to go to USUHS because of the near-$100K/year cost differential. At the time USC was one of the most expensive med schools in the country. I don't know if it still is or not.

USUHS is a fine school.

The problem with USUHS isn't so much the time commitment (though many chafe at that) but that you're obligating yourself to a military residency, possibly starting as many as 8 or 9 years from today, possibly finishing 13 or 15 years from today. Anyone who will double-pinky-swear that the military residency in the particular branch of service you're in and the particular field you choose will offer solid training that far in the future is lying to you. The truth is that the overall trend for the last 10-15 years in military residencies has been downhill - hospitals downsized while sick patients get deferred elsewhere. That trend doesn't appear to be reversing.

Today, some military residencies are outstanding, some suck. In 2020, who knows?

USUHS is a fine school, but I can't endorse my alma mater for the simple reason that going there will commit you to whatever military GME happens to be more than a decade from today.

 

[narcusprince]

Here is the big question you should be asking. What are the average board scores at Usuhs versus Tufts or USC. How many matriculate and graduate. Ask to see match lists as to where their graduates landed. I have met some very intelligiant people from USUHS, I do think that some of the military obligations during school will detract from study time applied to the boards. Because in the end thats what people care about your board scores number one and grades during medical school.

 

[a1qwerty55]

I have been lucky enough to have been accepted at USUHS as well as some regular medical schools. The military sounds like a very good fit for me, and I want to do it, but not just for the money.

However, there are many different ways to end up a military doctor, and I want to ensure that I get a good, well-rounded medical education. Can USUHS really provide as good an education as, say, Tufts or USC? Are military residencies as good as civilian ones?

Any advice or insight is appreciated!

Question one - Yes. USUHS has very good facilities, and a standard curriculum which is no different than that at any other medical school with the exception of the addition of some military specific stuff - more emphasis on parasitology, field medicine etc. Research is going to be weaker than civilian counterparts but that is totally irrelevant if you want to be a clinical physician, and frankly researchers often make the WORST teachers.

The key to being a good physician is building a solid foundation of knowledge during year one and two, the quality of which is totally up to you.

Then adding the clinical side during years 3-4.

USUHS offers opportunities to rotate at multiple centers, both military and civilian which gives you a broader perspective than working in one system's hospitals.

Question two - Depends service, on the speciality and location - some residencies are excellent, others marginal. Most are quite good and put out very competent residents. I have several civilian colleagues who were former professors of medicine at civilian medical schools/residencies who are very impressed with our resident pool.

 

[Zulu451]

Lets see if i can do this just once. Sorry, the internet connections here in the middle of nowhere afghanistan suck. That is why I have time to troll boards as well. I am a general surgeon at a busy MEDCEN in the army. I will be starting a subspecialty residency in July. BTW.

Active- I have echoed your complaints many times in discussions with colleagues about military training programs and care in general. IMHO, the army should get out of providing medical care and start using private insurance, and private providers. All medical providers should be on a reserve status and be called to serve when needed. In addition, they need to get out of the business of GME. This is if we continue with our current trajectory of medical care.

The quality of GME is very dependent on the specialty and location. Very dependent on the quality of leadership and how willing they are to fight for your program. Our PD gave an ultimatum to the hospital CG if they banned us from over 65. It would have cost the hospital millions of dollars. Needless to say, we still saw over 65.

 

[notdeadyet]

I'm a current USUHS student without any prior military background. USUHS is consistently ranked in the top 50 medical schools in the nation.

By who? They're unranked (meaning, below top 60) by USN&WR. (Note: Personally, school rankings are pretty much hogwash anyway...). I think it would be pretty hard to objectively characterize USUHS as anything other than an average medical school. Which is a good thing; an average U.S. allopathic medical school is a fine thing.

I think focusing on the quality of education at USUHS is pretty much a red herring. All medical schools teach pretty much the same thing and in pretty much the same way, unless they want to risk losing LCME accreditation.

Where USUHS sets itself apart is the fact that it limits you to military residencies.

So in choosing USUHS, the smart question to ask isn't, "is USUHS better than USC/UCLA/Harvard/Boston U?".
The smart question to ask is "are the handful of military residencies I'm restricted to in my specialty of choice if I go to USUHS better than the dozens or hundreds of options I'll have available to me if I go to USC/UCLA/Harvard/Boston U?"

And if you're happy with having a choice of five residency options for Emergency Medicine instead of 120 options, then ask yourself about the quality of said residencies, the commitment to one employer for 7 years, and the financial sacrifice of 7 years of earning tens of thousands (or hundreds thousand) less than your civilian counterparts.

USUHS is a good gig if your goal is to be a lifer in the military who is incidentally a physician. Outside of that.... You'll get a good education at USUHS and doing a military residency. Better than a civilian medical school and civilian residency? That would be a very difficult argument to make....

 

[BigNavyPedsGuy]

By who? They're unranked (meaning, below top 60) by USN&WR. (Note: Personally, school rankings are pretty much hogwash anyway...).

I think that ranking was done by AFN

 

[The White Coat Investor]

You forgot your pediatric and OB caveat. Our specialties don't struggle from having young, healthy, active duty members. Being young and healthy actually makes them breed even more.

But I'm a big fan of having options and going to USUHS closes off a lot of options.

Yes, you're right. But that is a big caveat, as the specialty is not OB, it is OB/GYN and gyn surgeries are pretty limited in the military. My command keeps cutting gyn clinic time to increase ob clinic time. And forget going to the OR, unless its a C-section.

The only complaining I hear from Peds is that they're too busy.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Additionally, the USUHS/Military community has some of the world's foremost experts in every field imaginable and offers training in anything you might possibly want to pursue. I suspect the commenters aren't too familiar with our curriculum or quality of students.

Nope. We're not familiar at all with your curriculum or the quality of the students.

WAKE UP!!! We're your F...ing teachers! When you go away your third or fourth year to learn OB, surgery, medicine, emergency medicine etc....we're your teachers!

We're pretty damn familiar with your curriculum. In fact, we decide what it will be. And we're awfully familiar with the quality of the students...since we fill out evals on them EVERY FRICKIN' DAY!

All the problems with military residencies transfer directly to the 3rd and 4th year rotations. Same hospitals. Same patient populations. In fact, it gets worse. Since the residents don't get enough procedures, they don't let the students do squat. You think you're going to intubate a patient in a military ED as a student? When the residents only do it once or twice during their entire residency? Got news for you, ain't gonna happen.

The fact that people come out of USUHS and military residencies and are still good doctors is a testament to the quality of the people, not the quality of the training.

 

[Mirror Form]

As long as you train at an average medical school, it's really not that important in regard to your future ability to practice medicine. Does anyone really believe that doing their 3rd year gen surg rotation at Hopkins instead of USUHS will be even remotely significant after completing a gen surg residency?

Residency and internship are where you truly learn how to practice medicine. USUHS is more than sufficient for almost any med student. However, a better med school will certainly open doors when you apply to residency (even military residencies: when they have 10 USUHS applicants, that one guy from Wash U will stand out).

Military residencies can be more of a gamble, but most are decent programs. Are they as good as most Hopkins residencies? Definitely not, but most are average. That said, there are some bad ones. For example, as other posters mentioned, there were some gen surg programs that got hit particularly hard by a few DOD hospitals that kicked out a lot of patients over 65. During my insternship, I witnessed this first hand and it was scary. Fortunately I did residency elsewhere in a military surgical subspecialty residency and my training was in very good compared to most of my civilian collegues (and in some ways far superior).

In regard to board pass rates, I don't think that is b/c military residents have more time. It's because of how "metrics" focused the military is. As a resident, my staff (who were overall great) were seriously malignant when it came to putting pressure on us to do well on exams.

Regardless, most military docs do very well when they leave the military, so overall I think the training does something right. The military definitely forces a lot more responsibility onto the military residents than civilian residencies do.

 

[ftrflyr29]

I'll caveat this by saying I'm posting this from a pre-med perspective, so don't intend to appear as if I am knowledgeable about military medicine by any stretch, but someone in an earlier thread posted a concern about residency staff being transient with deployments, etc.

I have been shadowing at the Naval hospital near where I'm stationed and the program director of the (1) residency program here, who arrived last summer, is currently deployed. Not sure if it's the same in the big 3 hospitals, or in the other services, but it definitely does happen.

 

[EricTan]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their responses, your discussion has been very helpful for me in making my decision!

 

[Galo]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their responses, your discussion has been very helpful for me in making my decision!

If you don't mind, would you share your decision on this forum and why you made it? Its always interesting to see people's though process when they have a bit more information.

Thanks

 

[deuist]

USUHS is consistently ranked in the top 50 medical schools in the nation.

According to who? The only ranking system that I am aware of is the U.S. News and World Report. For the past several years, USUHS has not been listed.

Additionally, the USUHS/Military community has some of the world's foremost experts in every field imaginable

Name one of them.

and offers training in anything you might possibly want to pursue.

Not true at all. The Air Force has most of the major fields, but it does not have a residency program in neurosurgery, most surgical sub-specialties, or most super specialized medical fields such as interventional neurology. The Air Force will not allow anyone to apply to physical medicine and rehabilitation. On top of that, medical students are not allowed to apply for aerospace medicine or dermatology.

I suspect the commenters aren't too familiar with our curriculum or quality of students.

I’m someone familiar with the curriculum, and having met a few of your graduates, I’m pretty familiar with the quality of students. I would say that they are on par with those I’ve seen at other institutions.

Secondly, you should judge USUHS by the same standards as you judge other medical schools.

Okay, what is your board pass rate? What is the average USMLE score for your students? Where I went for medical school, we had a 100% pass rate for first-time takers of STEP I. How many people get their #1 choice for residency? If it’s the Air Force or Navy, those numbers are going to be abysmal because of the GME disaster.

The only difference academically is that our curriculum adds military medicine topics, so we have an additional 800 hours of instruction time that civilian medical schools do not have.

Let’s do some math. At 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, and two years for classroom work, you’re getting 4000 hours of lecture during the basic sciences—more likely less than that given vacation and physicianship training courses. What are you giving up to have 800 hours of military instruction? Don’t tell me that your days are longer than mine were.

This includes field instruction (learning how to put in IV's literally in the middle of the field)

Any competent medical student can do that.

The committment is 7 additional years which is justified in part because we are Active Duty status, and therefore paid a higher salary than HPSP students.

Finally, something that we can agree on.

I think my choosing to go there is testament enough to my trust in its education. I am among a wonderful group of students and am constantly challenged by my ambitious and capable peers. However, I would urge you to see for yourself rather than listening to strangers' commentary.

How are you not a stranger?

I'm proud that I'm already on the track to do humanitarian work as a physician

I did four humanitarian trips abroad while in medical school. How many have you done?

which is the original reason why I even wanted to pursue medicine to begin with. I hope that whatever path you choose, you will be equally proud and satisfied with your choice. Best of luck.

You, too.

 

[ahowardmd]

If you don't mind, would you share your decision on this forum and why you made it? Its always interesting to see people's though process when they have a bit more information.

Thanks

I would also appreciate hearing your decision. I recently received my acceptance to USUHS, so we will probably be classmates depending on what you decide!

What do y'all think of the Emergency Medicine or Trauma Surgery residencies for the Army? I didn't realize the military GME system was so poor. I really want to be an ER doc or trauma surgeon, and I figured military medicine would prepare me well for a career like that. It has also been my dream to attend USUHS since I've known about it, so I doubt I'll be changing my mind, but I'd like to know what I'm getting myself into.

 

[a1qwerty55]

I would also appreciate hearing your decision. I recently received my acceptance to USUHS, so we will probably be classmates depending on what you decide!

What do y'all think of the Emergency Medicine or Trauma Surgery residencies for the Army? I didn't realize the military GME system was so poor. I really want to be an ER doc or trauma surgeon, and I figured military medicine would prepare me well for a career like that. It has also been my dream to attend USUHS since I've known about it, so I doubt I'll be changing my mind, but I'd like to know what I'm getting myself into.

Army specific response here -

You will be well trained whichever path you choose. USUHS will more than well enough prepare you for whatever field you wish to pursue.

Trauma surgery in most of America is done by general surgeons - most of the Army GS residencies have affiliations with high volume trauma centers. Trauma fellowships in the Army aren't that hard to pick up.

ER is not the greatest but not weak either - There aren't any Army ER residencies which approximate inner city ER's or large university ER's but I'm not sure that is that big a drawback. Both ER and Trauma are pretty straight forward and less less trauma goes to the OR anymore with IR embolizing everything in sight. I really is just ABC's and ensuring you don't miss an injury.

I wouldn't base a decision on posts on an anonymous internet forum. Best wishes with whatever you choose.

 

[J-Rad]

Nope. We're not familiar at all with your curriculum or the quality of the students.

WAKE UP!!! We're your F...ing teachers! When you go away your third or fourth year to learn OB, surgery, medicine, emergency medicine etc....we're your teachers!

We're pretty damn familiar with your curriculum. In fact, we decide what it will be. And we're awfully familiar with the quality of the students...since we fill out evals on them EVERY FRICKIN' DAY!...

BTW. That response was classic

 

[ahowardmd]

Army specific response here -

You will be well trained whichever path you choose. USUHS will more than well enough prepare you for whatever field you wish to pursue.

Trauma surgery in most of America is done by general surgeons - most of the Army GS residencies have affiliations with high volume trauma centers. Trauma fellowships in the Army aren't that hard to pick up.

ER is not the greatest but not weak either - There aren't any Army ER residencies which approximate inner city ER's or large university ER's but I'm not sure that is that big a drawback. Both ER and Trauma are pretty straight forward and less less trauma goes to the OR anymore with IR embolizing everything in sight. I really is just ABC's and ensuring you don't miss an injury.

I wouldn't base a decision on posts on an anonymous internet forum. Best wishes with whatever you choose.

Thanks for the info. I was just getting discouraged while reading some of these posts about residencies!

 

[notdeadyet]

Trauma surgery in most of America is done by general surgeons - most of the Army GS residencies have affiliations with high volume trauma centers.

"Affiliations." But isn't there benefit, if you're interested in going into TS, to have your GS residency located AT a high volume trauma center?

ER is not the greatest but not weak either - There aren't any Army ER residencies which approximate inner city ER's or large university ER's but I'm not sure that is that big a drawback.

Most folks looking into EM residencies are told that volume and diversity of experiences are key in an EM residency. I'd be cautious about pursuing a program that didn't have a high level trauma and emergency care. Most military programs are also "affiliated" with Level 1's, but I'm not sold that that's the same thing.

I wouldn't base a decision on posts on an anonymous internet forum.

Agree with this ^^^. If you're interested in leaving the military at some point, it's the civilian impression of military residencies that is going to count. So in addition to all the input you get here, be SURE to check with leaders in EM and Trauma that you respect. See how they compare the military residencies in these fields with their civilian counterparts.

 

[Galo]

I would also appreciate hearing your decision. I recently received my acceptance to USUHS, so we will probably be classmates depending on what you decide!

What do y'all think of the Emergency Medicine or Trauma Surgery residencies for the Army? I didn't realize the military GME system was so poor. I really want to be an ER doc or trauma surgeon, and I figured military medicine would prepare me well for a career like that. It has also been my dream to attend USUHS since I've known about it, so I doubt I'll be changing my mind, but I'd like to know what I'm getting myself into.

If you really want to know what you're getting into, start calling up the army's residency programs for ER and General Surgery. Having been in the Air Force for 6 years and at a training facility for AF residents, I can tell you the level of acuity is not what you want to have to be competently trained compared to a busy civilian trauma center. Being affiliated, and rotating for a few months at a time does not equal being immersed into it all the time.

As I was never in the army I will not comment directly on their programs. But having been in military medicine for 6 years, my opinon remains that the residency programs are NOT comparable to civilian ones, unless you are comparing them to lower tier ones.

Its easy to confirm, call up and speak to chief residents, and to young active duty attendings to see what their experience has been.

What puzzles me, is that people reading all this negatives, (and perhaps confirming them), still sign away potentially 15 yrs of their career to the military. If you train civilian in what you want, and still want to go into the military, you would have no problem. I think you close TOO many doors by going into a system where you give up all control of your life.

Let us know what you find out.

 

[DrMetal]

Nope. We're not familiar at all with your curriculum or the quality of the students.

WAKE UP!!! We're your F...ing teachers! When you go away your third or fourth year to learn OB, surgery, medicine, emergency medicine etc....we're your teachers!

We're pretty damn familiar with your curriculum. In fact, we decide what it will be. And we're awfully familiar with the quality of the students...since we fill out evals on them EVERY FRICKIN' DAY!

Chill dude, we get it, you're the big dog. If it's your goal here to intimidate people, such that they don't come back to read/post anything, then you might be succeeding in that light. Otherwise, if you want to convince people of your viewpoint, it would behoove you to take up a gentler tone.

To the OP, Mr EricTan: Yes, please, tell us your decision! You are committing a cardinal SDN sin by starting such a grand pissing contest and failing to declare a winner!

 

[BigNavyPedsGuy]

As I was never in the army I will not comment directly on their programs. But having been in military medicine for 6 years, my opinon remains that the residency programs are NOT comparable to civilian ones, unless you are comparing them to lower tier ones.

Again, I've joked about it before, but it's not accurate to say blanket statements that "all" residency programs are worse. I agree, surgical and emergency medicine are: in my opinion, if you're not a trauma center, you shouldn't even have an EM residency.

Either way there are some programs, Peds, OB, FP that get as good or better training that the civilian world. Now your response was aimed at someone who wants to do Trauma Surg or ER so he should run the other way.

But if you're going to make blanket statements, make sure that they are accurately applied to everyone under the blanket.

 

[AFlightdoc]

ok- every few months when I'm feeling masochistic and need a kick in the balls I get on this forum and go on a nice downward spiral for an evening- then get over it and get back to work. I did USUHS, military internship and ended-up in the dreaded flight-med tour. The truth is, like most things in life military med is not as bad or as great as some on this board would lead you to believe. I'm only going to comment on something I know from personal experience. As wrong as the air force is about most things GME (and sorry AF-apologists there are a lot of things wrong) they have been forced to get a few things right. At least some of the AF gen surg programs have been completely incorporated into large civilian university programs (ie- WP/Wright State and Travis/UC Davis). In these programs you are essentially a civilian resident- there is no difference b/w an AD resident and a civilian university resident- same rotations/same cases/same diploma. Over the course of your residency you will likely spend only several months total at one of the military facilities. As these changes are fairly recent (and I suspect the AF does not want to advertise what amounts to a loss of in-house training) I'll give most of you the benefit of the doubt. But stating that AF gen surg residencies are inferior to civilian programs just isn't applicable to the current reality. Granted I don’t know much about Kessler and Wilford Hall but they may well be more deserving of this criticism.

 

[notdeadyet]

At least some of the AF gen surg programs have been completely incorporated into large civilian university programs (ie- WP/Wright State and Travis/UC Davis). In these programs you are essentially a civilian resident- there is no difference b/w an AD resident and a civilian university resident- same rotations/same cases/same diploma.

This is absolutely true for Travis/UC Davis, at least since '05. Travis's surgical residents are essentially adopted by UC Davis for the duration of their residency, with much of their elective time spent at military hospital. I consider this very different from an "affiliation," since the AF essentially turns the education over to Davis for the Travis folks.

But stating that AF gen surg residencies are inferior to civilian programs just isn't applicable to the current reality.

I think the Travis folks get a great education, not at all inferior, but it's literally a civilian one. My curiosity is more about the AF surgical residency programs that the AF still runs.

Granted I don't know much about Kessler and Wilford Hall but they may well be more deserving of this criticism.

I'd be curious to hear if they farmed out their residency programs to the civilian sector, as well. If they haven't, I'd be curious as to their cases and quality.

 

[J-Rad]

...Additionally, the USUHS/Military community has some of the world's foremost experts in every field imaginable and offers training in anything you might possibly want to pursue. I suspect the commenters aren't too familiar with our curriculum or quality of students.

...additional 800 hours of instruction time that civilian medical schools do not have. This includes field instruction (learning how to put in IV's literally in the middle of the field) as well as classroom instruction on tertiary care...

I think my choosing to go there is testament enough to my trust in its education. I am among a wonderful group of students and am constantly challenged by my ambitious and capable peers. However, I would urge you to see for yourself rather than listening to strangers' commentary. I'm proud that I'm already on the track to do humanitarian work as a physician which is the original reason why I even wanted to pursue medicine to begin with. I hope that whatever path you choose, you will be equally proud and satisfied with your choice. Best of luck.

Nope. We're not familiar at all with your curriculum or the quality of the students.

WAKE UP!!! We're your F...ing teachers! When you go away your third or fourth year to learn OB, surgery, medicine, emergency medicine etc....we're your teachers!

We're pretty damn familiar with your curriculum. In fact, we decide what it will be. And we're awfully familiar with the quality of the students...since we fill out evals on them EVERY FRICKIN' DAY!...

Chill dude, we get it, you're the big dog. If it's your goal here to intimidate people, such that they don't come back to read/post anything, then you might be succeeding in that light. Otherwise, if you want to convince people of your viewpoint, it would behoove you to take up a gentler tone...

Umm, lighten up. I've provided excerpts from the post that ADMD was referencing and even you have to see that some portions of it are so, eh, poorly thought out (is that gentle enough a tone?) to warrant a little backlash. I'll agree with those that think that sometimes opinions seem a overly polarized here (I'm a little more ambivalent toward milmed, but like BNPG, I'm in one of the fewer more robust fields) but if you're going to talk smack you need to do it with a little more...finesse.

And for the debate as it relates to the AF, remember Keesler is a real possibility for (your) GME, and it most definitely does not have any training environments like the WP or Travis deals.

 

[dru2002]

Again, I've joked about it before, but it's not accurate to say blanket statements that "all" residency programs are worse. I agree, surgical and emergency medicine are: in my opinion, if you're not a trauma center, you shouldn't even have an EM residency.

Either way there are some programs, Peds, OB, FP that get as good or better training that the civilian world. Now your response was aimed at someone who wants to do Trauma Surg or ER so he should run the other way.

But if you're going to make blanket statements, make sure that they are accurately applied to everyone under the blanket.

What are your feelings on specialties like ortho. They would like have a significant amount of "sport-related" injuries and I would imagine with battlefield trauma they are participating in reconstructions not seen in the civilian world. Of course they probably have limited exposure to the elderly population. But on the whole do you think they are well trained?

 

[DeadCactus]

What are your feelings on specialties like ortho. They would like have a significant amount of "sport-related" injuries and I would imagine with battlefield trauma they are participating in reconstructions not seen in the civilian world. Of course they probably have limited exposure to the elderly population. But on the whole do you think they are well trained?

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I get the impression that people vastly overestimate the amount of trauma seen by military physicians...

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I get the impression that people vastly overestimate the amount of trauma seen by military physicians...

You are correct. I have been in for 4 years and I can't think of one case in a military hospital (including a deployment) that met criteria for a trauma center. Now on MOST deployments, you will see at least some trauma (sometimes A LOT), just not the one I went on. But at home, unless you're at a designated trauma center (where the residents will be doing the fun stuff anyway) you won't see much.

If you want to keep trauma skills up in the military, you have to moonlight. Sorry, that's just the way it is. ATLS q4 years doesn't cut it. Although with the way deployment ops tempos are going....

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Umm, lighten up. I've provided excerpts from the post that ADMD was referencing and even you have to see that some portions of it are so, eh, poorly thought out (is that gentle enough a tone?) to warrant a little backlash.

Sorry...got a little carried away. (Although what I said IS true.)

 

[J-Rad]

Let me clarify-Mr. Metal: lighten up. ADMD, carry on. Yours was an entertaining and accurate response to a poorly thought out post.

 

[BigNavyPedsGuy]

What are your feelings on specialties like ortho. They would like have a significant amount of "sport-related" injuries and I would imagine with battlefield trauma they are participating in reconstructions not seen in the civilian world. Of course they probably have limited exposure to the elderly population. But on the whole do you think they are well trained?

From talking to a few ortho guys the concensus opinion is that they get GREAT sports medicine training and not enough trauma or joint replacement training. The overwhelming number of them are VERY frustrated about pay. They lose about $300K every year they are on active duty. If you think about it, in one year they could make enough to balance out all of the med school debt they would've had if they'd taken out loans.

 

[dru2002]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I get the impression that people vastly overestimate the amount of trauma seen by military physicians...

I knew stateside it was quite limited. From what I've seen they see quite a bit on deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan.

 

[dru2002]

From talking to a few ortho guys the concensus opinion is that they get GREAT sports medicine training and not enough trauma or joint replacement training. The overwhelming number of them are VERY frustrated about pay. They lose about $300K every year they are on active duty. If you think about it, in one year they could make enough to balance out all of the med school debt they would've had if they'd taken out loans.

Thanks. Long-term I hope to be a team physician so its good to know the sports medicine training is very good.

 

[Galo]

Again, I've joked about it before, but it's not accurate to say blanket statements that "all" residency programs are worse. I agree, surgical and emergency medicine are: in my opinion, if you're not a trauma center, you shouldn't even have an EM residency.

Either way there are some programs, Peds, OB, FP that get as good or better training that the civilian world. Now your response was aimed at someone who wants to do Trauma Surg or ER so he should run the other way.

But if you're going to make blanket statements, make sure that they are accurately applied to everyone under the blanket.

BNPG, although I did not use the word "all", I can see how its implied. Also, I was refering to surgical and EM residencies where you need to be able to see and experience a wide variety of patients.

As far as the farming out of AF surgical residencies, yes, their residents are basically residents in the civilian program, though they end up rotating at the AF hospital for 4 months of their chief yr and at various times. Besides WH, not sure there are any surgery residencies that are not affiliated with some civilian program. Its not ideal, but better than relying on the base alone for a well rounded education.

So now you're trained. It is a possibility to get shipped to a place where those 5-6 yrs of training will be reduced to doing lumps, bumps, bx's, appy's and gallbladders.... the problem is not just with the training, but with the ability to then do your job. Not for "all", but certainly specialized invasive fields suffer the most in that respect.

 

[ahowardmd]

Got my letter today, Army. Woot!