Does the nursing/doctor turf war ever subside?

[floatingribs]

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Stupid topic to post on here and far too many pre meds proving my point. The gist of this originally was stating how nursing professors/programs encourage the turf war/impose the insecurity onto nursing students for no good reason.

I'm aware doctors are far more educated than nurses. I'm a BSN and pre-med. I'm aware it's a bad fit. ✌

Happy to know it's not promoted in med schools though as it's common in nursing schools.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

I stopped reading at pre-med BSN student. Wat.

 

[floatingribs]

I stopped reading at pre-med BSN student. Wat.

I've been taking course overloads since spring semester as a freshman and looking back it's such a terrible choice and not conducive to a good gpa but hey at least I can make a 80k in my gap year, have a backup if need be, and have phenomenal patient care experience. (it's still a terrible choice 10/10 would not recommenced)

 

[Astra]

TL;DR


And to answer the question in the title. No. It will never end.

There will always be nurses who are insecure and there will always be doctors who are arrogant pricks

 

[floatingribs]

TL;DR


And to answer the question in the title. No. It will never end.

There will always be nurses who are insecure and there will always be doctors who are arrogant pricks

I meant more so does med school encourage it? (like nursing schools totally do whether on purpose or not, it pushes nursing students to be insecure in the medical setting in my experience)

 

[Astra]

I meant more so does med school encourage it? (like nursing schools totally do whether on purpose or not, it pushes nursing students to be insecure in the medical setting in my experience)

Idk. I'm not in med school

 

[summergirl]

Drinking game: down a shot every time the OP says "like".






I assume no medical responsibilities for the outcome of this game

 

[Lucca]

Good teams are good and bad teams are bad. If you have people working on the same floor that are fighting weird 12th dimensional chess workplace power battles then someone somewhere needs to take charge and get that sorted.

Idk whether schools encourage things or not. There are a lot of politics and economics behind the Nurse Doctor debates, particularly where mid levels trying to receive equal practice rights and lowering compensation overall for the delivery of care while pushing docs out of the market.

but you can't have those kind of squabbles getting in the way of good teamwork. People should understand their responsibilities and those of their colleagues. If that's happening that person is a problem whether they are the attending, the Mid level, the nurse, or the rad tech.

Tl;Dr the animosity is more at the abstract, political and institutional level than it is at the personal level in my admittedly limited experience

 

[auferstehen92]

Drinking game: down a shot every time the OP says "like".






I assume no medical responsibilities for the outcome of this game

Yes it was incredibly distracting. Maybe OP was using it as stylistic choice to give her prose (lol) more of a "rant" feel but by God is it annoying.

Why not try articulating a coherent argument if you want serious responses?

 

[popopopop]

Tl;Dr the animosity is more at the abstract, political and institutional level than it is at the personal level in my admittedly limited experience

Yeah, that's how it is in the real world, as most of us that got into health care just wanted to help patients and get decent compensation for it. Here on sdn, there are a few specific and active posters who will chime in with something anti-nurse and the ball just gets rolling from there. Usually it's anecdotal examples of how ignorant nurses are or how much they hate docs.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

And I ignore pre-meds b/c they have like no actual clue what's going on / what nursing students actually learn (like after 4 years the people with the most knowledgeable about the human body are most likely going to be ur BSN RNs and certainly not pre-meds by a long shot). I kind of just ignore pre meds, it's practically laughable when they respond to questions about illness when the only exposure to medicine is there pre med classes.

This is funny, my BSN nurse wife would completely disagree with you. She know s a lot of clinical applications because I haven't been taught that but my basic science level knowledge of the human body far outstrips hers. But then again my degree is physiology based and most pre-meds don't take those courses. No some pre-meds don't know anything about the human body yet but there are a number of us who have a lot deeper knowledge than the nursing curriculum covers, don't make assumptions.

I meant more so does med school encourage it

I'll let you know in August but all my med student friends say no.

the animosity is more at the abstract, political and institutional level than it is at the personal level in my admittedly limited experience

This. On a day to day basis it really isn't an issue. The doctors treat the patients, the nurses follow the order sets, and every now and then a nurse will catch a small charting mistake and the doc fixes it or a nurse will question an order and the doc nicely explains the reasoning and then the nurse implements said order. The battle is largely on the legislative level.

 

[mistafab]

As Max Aita said on JTS that "anytime someone has to spend lots of time telling you how great something is, or how great they are, usually it's just crap."

People who make "turf wars" and talk about their titles and stuff are just full of crap.

 

[bioboy23]

Drinking game: down a shot every time the OP says "like".






I assume no medical responsibilities for the outcome of this game

I dont wanna die bruh

 

[floatingribs]

This is funny, my BSN nurse wife would completely disagree with you. She know s a lot of clinical applications because I haven't been taught that but my basic science level knowledge of the human body far outstrips hers. But then again my degree is physiology based and most pre-meds don't take those courses. No some pre-meds don't know anything about the human body yet but there are a number of us who have a lot deeper knowledge than the nursing curriculum covers, don't make assumptions.
I meant in the clinical application sense, definitely not on the molecular level. (The curriculum really lacks in th


I'll let you know in August but all my med student friends say no.



This. On a day to day basis it really isn't an issue. The doctors treat the patients, the nurses follow the order sets, and every now and then a nurse will catch a small charting mistake and the doc fixes it or a nurse will question an order and the doc nicely explains the reasoning and then the nurse implements said order. The battle is largely on the legislative level.

I meant in the clinical application sense, definitely not on the molecular level. (The curriculum really lacks on the molecular level or knowing mechanisms)

 

[floatingribs]

Yes it was incredibly distracting. Maybe OP was using it as stylistic choice to give her prose (lol) more of a "rant" feel but by God is it annoying.

Why not try articulating a coherent argument if you want serious responses?

This is so pretentious like this is literally a forum lmao (fyi the use of like and lack of punctuation is a stylistic choice in this sentence)

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm a nursing major doing pre-med so I kind of see both sides of it but some professionals and professors are so gross about it makes me cringe.

Like one of my nursing professors was talking about a colleague of hers who's husband was physically abusive and was a doctor, and she this colleague eventually went to get her NP and like my professor made it seem like hah she's a nurses now like she stuck it to him! and like this lady literally went to hell and back and got her GED, got her BSN, and now got her MSN like the hurdles she went through should be applauded esp in her situation and to reduce it to the turf war was so offensive tbh.

And I ignore pre-meds b/c they have like no actual clue what's going on / what nursing students actually learn (like after 4 years the people with the most knowledgeable about the human body are most likely going to be ur BSN RNs and certainly not pre-meds by a long shot). I kind of just ignore pre meds, it's practically laughable when they respond to questions about illness when the only exposure to medicine is there pre med classes.

and at the same time like I see a lot of people saying nursing students should stay in their place, but like we're kind of taught to be health advocates in that sense, and I totally see the line of authority (which is honestly needed) but man a lot of nurses do catch stuff on patients that a doctor would miss because the said nurses has been with them for 8 hours, like I've seen this too many times in practice and at the end of the day it helps the patients.

Also this notion on nursing students are too dumb is really weird to me, because in general the highest incoming SATs for my school was the nursing students, and honestly the biggest driver for nursing is that it pays well after 4 years and students just don't want to go to school for so long lol. Also nursing classes are hard in comparison to some pre med courses. But I guess it's sort of the freshman superiority complex lots of pre meds have that they're working the hardest in school and stressing the most when basically every student is.

But like does the turf war ever end? The way at least the majority of the nursing school teaches is honestly like reinforcing it and I got to a top 10% school and like you can teach your students to be patient advocate which is pretty integral to patient care, but like I don't see how reinforcing this sense of inferiority is helping patient care at all. I know a lot of doctors who think they're untouchable, but I think it's more due to culture and how nurses are viewed in certain ones. But in general like I kind of don't get why people get so hurt of the nursing/doctor thing like doctors by far are more educated on patient care period, but nurses have an integral role in public health and know a patient's history better than a doctor coming in but like does med school kind of try to break this turf war or does it encourage it (because nursing schools in general do)?

Sorry for the rant, it's so frustrating, like you see both sides and their points, but I don't understand why people feel the need to make it this turf war and be so condescending, like the goal is improved patient care and if you don't have any preconceived notion of u don't need this low level person or this inferiority complex going in you're probably going to get along better with your team.

Also not a troll, just very frustrated with my university lol.

Because nurses have been trying to steal our turf without the educational abilities to competently do so. That's pretty much it. We're annoyed for the same reason that a certified mechanic would be annoyed if his employer started letting the guys who change oil start working on engines in his shop. It's bad for the customers, bad for the business, and bad for his lifestyle.

 

[callisteaus]

If you're actually planning on going further in your education and becoming a doctor I wouldn't brag about doing a BSN. I think from reading your post you are ignorant about a lot of things yourself.
Yes we premeds know nothing now but my own personal exposure to medicine has been more than my the classes I'm taking, ever hear of job shadowing?
Even interns and residents are lacking in their complete knowledge of medicine and diseases--but the fact that we are there--we as premeds are much further than you could ever be being a nurse. It takes a lot of courage to dedicate yourself to medicine.

Also, some sound advice is doing both nursing and medicine is ridiculous in the eyes of both professions.
Nurses will snarl, saying "Oh, you're too good to be a nurse?"
A doctor will move on and probably not talk to you ever again.
Pick one profession is the wisdom I will pass on to anyone reading this who stumbled upon it because they're thinking: oh, I'll do nursing for my undergrad incase I can't get into medical school later that way I have a career to back me up.
If you actually had the confidence from the start you'd be here in the premed forums contributing something of actual value instead of stirring the pot.

-drops the mic-

 

[Medic741]

Reminds me of paramedics arguing that they know more than a doctor.

Yes. Hold your not-even-an-associates-degree to the 4 year bachelor, 4 yrs med and 3 yrs residency.

You want to be a professional? Don't **** on other professions // individuals. This kind of trash talk just reflects poorly on all professions involved...

 

[floatingribs]

If you're actually planning on going further in your education and becoming a doctor I wouldn't brag about doing a BSN. I think from reading your post you are ignorant about a lot of things yourself.
Yes we premeds know nothing now but my own personal exposure to medicine has been more than my the classes I'm taking, ever hear of job shadowing?
Even interns and residents are lacking in their complete knowledge of medicine and diseases--but the fact that we are there--we as premeds are much further than you could ever be being a nurse. It takes a lot of courage to dedicate yourself to medicine.

Also, some sound advice is doing both nursing and medicine is ridiculous in the eyes of both professions.
Nurses will snarl, saying "Oh, you're too good to be a nurse?"
A doctor will move on and probably not talk to you ever again.
Pick one profession is the wisdom I will pass on to anyone reading this who stumbled upon it because they're thinking: oh, I'll do nursing for my undergrad incase I can't get into medical school later that way I have a career to back me up.
If you actually had the confidence from the start you'd be here in the premed forums contributing something of actual value instead of stirring the pot.

-drops the mic-

I did say doing both nursing and medicine was stupid. This was literally the entirety of my post...that nursing professors really look down upon pre meds and doctors in general it creates a friction.
And at the end of the day a pre med still lacks the clinical expertise, because we're not taught that as pre-meds...because you wanting to become a doctor doesn't mean you're smarter in something you've never been taught yet. I don't even understand why you're taking offense, like you guys seriously aren't exposed to calculating dosages and doing other stuff because it's not part of the curriculum and is not yet relevant. Pre meds might be more ambitious, but not every ambitious pre med is even going to get accepted to medical school. Just because you want to do something doesn't mean you actually know how to do it lol.

This is also hilarious because your making up a story of why I'm getting my BSN first??? Confidence means **** to the 60%+ applicants that weren't accepted to med school btw, but I'm trying to see how there's a correlation between my major and confidence but coming up blank.

Like did u even read the original post? Dude u should pick ur mic back up and apologize lol

 

[piii]

I meant more so does med school encourage it? (like nursing schools totally do whether on purpose or not, it pushes nursing students to be insecure in the medical setting in my experience)

See in nursing school, you guys talk about doctors a lot it seems. In medical school, we don't even pay attention to nurses. You guys aren't even on our radar until clinicals when we work with nurses. Maybe your schools should focus more on education and less on petty drama.

I think it's incredibly naive to compare nursing students to premed. Nursing is a vocational program. Of course nursing students know more about clinical care then premeds. Premed is just a stepping stone to get into the vocation. Comparing the two makes me question your critical thinking.

 

[floatingribs]

See in nursing school, you guys talk about doctors a lot it seems. In medical school, we don't even pay attention to nurses. You guys aren't even on our radar until clinicals when we work with nurses. Maybe your schools should focus more on education and less on petty drama.

I'm not sure why you guys are implying I feel this way because that's the point I was trying to make. That literally in the best nursing programs this insecurity is pushed for no reason as it doesn't help students or clinical care.

But stupid topic to post on this site I suppose.

 

[DoctHouse]

Like, I don't like, think like doctors and like nurses will like, get along like, ever.

 

[Astra]

I see that midlevels vs doctors has become the new URM vs ORM debate

 

[floatingribs]

I see that midlevels vs doctors has become the new URM debate

It wasn't even a debate though (at least didn't intend it that way), it was comparing pre meds to nursing students and how nursing students are pushed into to this "turf war" by nursing professors.

 

[Astra]

It wasn't even a debate though (at least didn't intend it that way), it was comparing pre meds to nursing students and how nursing students are pushed into to this "turf war" by nursing professors.

I have a few nursing friends and the way their professors speak in regards to the medical profession is a shame. They typecast med students/doctors as powerhungry and moneyhungry

 

[DoctHouse]

It wasn't even a debate though (at least didn't intend it that way), it was comparing pre meds to nursing students and how nursing students are pushed into to this "turf war" by nursing professors.

I'm just wondering why you thought it was a good idea making one of these threads in PRE-ALLO. Especially with a title like that. Then you went onto rant, very biased -like, towards doctors and h0w they view nurses. What were you expecting, everyone to agree with you?

 

[floatingribs]

I'm just wondering why you thought it was a good idea making one of these threads in PRE-ALLO. Especially with a title like that. Then you went onto rant, very biased -like, towards doctors and h0w they view nurses. What were you expecting, everyone to agree with you?

did you read the original post? I literally started it with how my nursing professor literally had the audacity to compare an abused colleague of hers on how she "won" because she was now an np and her husband who literally physically abused her was a doctor. Like she reduced this entire lady's story who survived this terrible bastard to a Turf war like it was so incredibly insensitive.

I mentioned pre meds and how some cultural doctors have a skewed view but that was all I mentioned on doctors. It was literally entirely about how nursing programs encourage the turf war and this image of doctors being terrible and giving nursing students a savior complex.

But I did post it in a thread that was not conducive to answers I was looking for (thus why I deleted it)

 

[Citizen #3]

we as premeds are much further than you could ever be being a nurse. It takes a lot of courage to dedicate yourself to medicine.

This is so stupid. A premed is not "much farther" than a nurse could ever be. Premed is an arbitrary status and doesn't actually mean that you'll end up doing anything related to medicine. This isn't exactly a professional or courageous attitude.

 

[mwsapphire]

Drinking game: down a shot every time the OP says "like".






I assume no medical responsibilities for the outcome of this game

Plenty of people do that in speech, it only looks silly when it's written. It's just like saying "uuhhhh"

 

[mwsapphire]

Good teams are good and bad teams are bad. If you have people working on the same floor that are fighting weird 12th dimensional chess workplace power battles then someone somewhere needs to take charge and get that sorted.

Idk whether schools encourage things or not. There are a lot of politics and economics behind the Nurse Doctor debates, particularly where mid levels trying to receive equal practice rights and lowering compensation overall for the delivery of care while pushing docs out of the market.

but you can't have those kind of squabbles getting in the way of good teamwork. People should understand their responsibilities and those of their colleagues. If that's happening that person is a problem whether they are the attending, the Mid level, the nurse, or the rad tech.

Tl;Dr the animosity is more at the abstract, political and institutional level than it is at the personal level in my admittedly limited experience

You said MIDLEVEL

 

[mcloaf]

we as premeds are much further than you could ever be being a nurse. It takes a lot of courage to dedicate yourself to medicine.

Let us be clear, as a premed you haven't dedicated much of anything at this point in your academic career. You're still relatively undifferentiated, as evidenced by the thousands of premeds who end up pursuing other fields. Nothing wrong with that, we were all there at some point, but staying up late to do well in ochem and shadowing a few times doesn't make you some martyr to medicine.

Also, how are you any further than a nursing student--you're both undergrads...?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

This is so stupid. A premed is not "much farther" than a nurse could ever be. Premed is an arbitrary status and doesn't actually mean that you'll end up doing anything related to medicine. This isn't exactly a professional or courageous attitude.

Yeah like wut? That nurse will make more money than any pre-med will for a decade. And sorry but passing O-chem doesn't mean diddly.

 

[TXMED_1695]

SDN will always have the extreme cases, because it's a forum with 1000's of healthcare workers across the world. The doctors I have worked with are brilliant and intelligent (they are doctors for a reason). They understand what it is to have rapport with patients and coworkers. In 4 years of working at a hospital, this is how patient care teams primary function (they show each other respect). I've only encountered one dbag doctor, and he only worked at the hospital for 6 months.

 

[mwsapphire]

Yeah like wut? That nurse will make more money than any pre-med will for a decade. And sorry but passing O-chem doesn't mean diddly.

Well, you need at least a C to get med school....*sorry, couldn't resist*

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Well, you need at least a C to get med school....*sorry, couldn't resist*

At a number of institutions that is the lowest passing grade.

 

[mwsapphire]

At a number of institutions that is the lowest passing grade.

Oh. At UMASS al you need is a D ( wild, isnt it?)

 

[DoctorCrush]

Been a nurse for close to 10 years....I really don't know what turf you're talking about. They do their job, I do mine. Then again, my hospital is really small and everybody low key rashes each other cause we're all friends and it's fun. You get occasional douche bags but they never really last.

 

[Sardinia]

@floatingribs It's human nature to make presumptive valuations on others based on a limited knowledge that is excluded to n=1. That being said, people are reacting strongly to your thread because your title reads like a Gawker title piece. The content you provided doesn't have much pertinence to the turf war concerns that engender issues regarding scope of practice. In addition you make some bold statements regarding issues that aren't set in stone e.g. "...because you wanting to become a doctor doesn't mean you're smarter in something you've never been taught yet." I taught myself how to read telemetry strips, increase my competency in venipuncture, and learned how to write the basic skeleton of an HPI on my own initiative as a pre-medical student. I would argue that the difference between a medical student and any other student is their level of self-engagement in their own education and the fact that they are a catalyst to meeting the demands of medical school.

Finally, you mention how you learn how to calculate doses which have more clinical relevance than certain classes pre-meds take such as multivariable calculus or linear algebra. However, you are delusional if you believe that students who are able to excel in such courses would struggle with the basic multiplication and division involved in dose calculations. Reading your antagonistic post that discredits pre-medical students because a proportion of them won't be accepted into medical school is not only a poor use of appeal to authority, it's a use of false authority. Medical school acceptance bears no weight regarding the current competence of any student to perform in a clinical environment. In fact, certain medical schools favor students from non-medical backgrounds who develop a passion in medicine because they can provide a unique perspective to the profession that could bring extremely beneficial paradigm changes to the way we currently think about medicine.

The reason other people are being dismissive of your post is because your post is flawed in the same vein that you criticize your critics. Prior comments about pre-meds being undifferentiated should be taken to heart. Many views that you have are premature and many opinions that you have in response to polarizing opinions can also be intrinsically flawed. Medicine isn't a perfect science that can be taught exclusively through a textbook or within a classroom setting. To argue that a BSN holistically covers more clinical relevance than the amount of information gained by a premed is the type of thinking that would be coveted by someone overvaluing an investment of only a BSN as their sole educational experience. Instead of evaluating other fields based on your specialty, the more productive mindset would be to learn more about the opportunities provided by other fields. Medical schools openly embrace diversity in order to enrich the field and to possibly find unique answers to systemic problems. The posts you have made indicate that your thinking is too narrow for someone who is still taking baby steps not just as a medical professional, but into life in general.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

However, you are delusional if you believe that students who are able to excel in such courses would struggle with the basic multiplication and division involved in dose calculations.

Agree here, my wife used to come to me for help with that class. It really is just basic stoichiometry that we have been doing since gen chem 1

 

[dwgrubbs1s]

It will, but first, the rapture of a few doctors will occur. The doctors and the nurses will sign a peace treaty. Then 7 years of tribulation will begin. The first 3 1/2 years the doctors and nurses will get a long well. All will be good in the land. During this time, the anti-physician will rise to power. The last 3 1/2 years will be hell in the healthcare system. Doctors will be forced to take the mark of ANA or lose their license. At the end of this period, the final trumpet will blow signaling the final battle. Dr. Gregory House will descend from the skies to lead the final battle. The doctors will prevail and enjoy 1,000 years of peace in hospitals.

 

[mwsapphire]

Only Doctor House can save us when Nurses attack

 

[floatingribs]

@floatingribs It's human nature to make presumptive valuations on others based on a limited knowledge that is excluded to n=1. That being said, people are reacting strongly to your thread because your title reads like a Gawker title piece. The content you provided doesn't have much pertinence to the turf war concerns that engender issues regarding scope of practice. In addition you make some bold statements regarding issues that aren't set in stone e.g. "...because you wanting to become a doctor doesn't mean you're smarter in something you've never been taught yet." I taught myself how to read telemetry strips, increase my competency in venipuncture, and learned how to write the basic skeleton of an HPI on my own initiative as a pre-medical student. I would argue that the difference between a medical student and any other student is their level of self-engagement in their own education and the fact that they are a catalyst to meeting the demands of medical school.

Finally, you mention how you learn how to calculate doses which have more clinical relevance than certain classes pre-meds take such as multivariable calculus or linear algebra. However, you are delusional if you believe that students who are able to excel in such courses would struggle with the basic multiplication and division involved in dose calculations. Reading your antagonistic post that discredits pre-medical students because a proportion of them won't be accepted into medical school is not only a poor use of appeal to authority, it's a use of false authority. Medical school acceptance bears no weight regarding the current competence of any student to perform in a clinical environment. In fact, certain medical schools favor students from non-medical backgrounds who develop a passion in medicine because they can provide a unique perspective to the profession that could bring extremely beneficial paradigm changes to the way we currently think about medicine.

The reason other people are being dismissive of your post is because your post is flawed in the same vein that you criticize your critics. Prior comments about pre-meds being undifferentiated should be taken to heart. Many views that you have are premature and many opinions that you have in response to polarizing opinions can also be intrinsically flawed. Medicine isn't a perfect science that can be taught exclusively through a textbook or within a classroom setting. To argue that a BSN holistically covers more clinical relevance than the amount of information gained by a premed is the type of thinking that would be coveted by someone overvaluing an investment of only a BSN as their sole educational experience. Instead of evaluating other fields based on your specialty, the more productive mindset would be to learn more about the opportunities provided by other fields. Medical schools openly embrace diversity in order to enrich the field and to possibly find unique answers to systemic problems. The posts you have made indicate that your thinking is too narrow for someone who is still taking baby steps not just as a medical professional, but into life in general.

you guys generalize far too much and get offended way too easily. If anything my original post (which I've deleted for a while now) was bashing nursing school, and my response were to people making assumptions on why I'm taking the path I am. Also I literally mentioned nursing and pre med are terrible to each other and my nursing education does not in any way make me a better pre med, and if anything will make my apps a little harder.

But again lol, I'd much rather have a person who knows how to draw blood and was taught about drug interactions in the clinical setting whether that means that person has only a diploma degree, an ASN, a BSN, or any other certification that certifies that they were taught specifically how to do things in a clinical environment to draw my blood. Don't really care if that person aced high level bios, because they literally don't know how yet (because they have not been taught, I don't understand why this is a hard concept to learn like I'd much rather have a phlebotomist with no schooling done but a license to practice draw my blood than a Harvard graduate that was never trained in doing so).

Also like the entire point of my original post was that nursing professors instill this sense of insecurity in nursing students and this idea that the doctors are the antagonists in the patient care setting, and this mentality is not conducive to good patient outcomes in my opinion. Like that was my entire point. I'm literally a pre med.

 

[floatingribs]

Been a nurse for close to 10 years....I really don't know what turf you're talking about. They do their job, I do mine. Then again, my hospital is really small and everybody low key rashes each other cause we're all friends and it's fun. You get occasional douche bags but they never really last.

I was more so talking about my professors, but it's good to know it's overinflated.

 

[DoctorCrush]

I was more so talking about my professors, but it's good to know it's overinflated.

Hated nursing school and those damn professors.

 

[dwgrubbs1s]

you guys generalize far too much and get offended way too easily. If anything my original post (which I've deleted for a while now) was bashing nursing school, and my response were to people making assumptions on why I'm taking the path I am. Also I literally mentioned nursing and pre med are terrible to each other and my nursing education does not in any way make me a better pre med, and if anything will make my apps a little harder.

But again lol, I'd much rather have a person who knows how to draw blood and was taught about drug interactions in the clinical setting whether that means that person has only a diploma degree, an ASN, a BSN, or any other certification that certifies that they were taught specifically how to do things in a clinical environment to draw my blood. Don't really care if that person aced high level bios, because they literally don't know how yet (because they have not been taught, I don't understand why this is a hard concept to learn like I'd much rather have a phlebotomist with no schooling done but a license to practice draw my blood than a Harvard graduate that was never trained in doing so).

Also like the entire point of my original post was that nursing professors instill this sense of insecurity in nursing students and this idea that the doctors are the antagonists in the patient care setting, and this mentality is not conducive to good patient outcomes in my opinion. Like that was my entire point. I'm literally a pre med.

Glad to know my nursing school wasn't the only school to play the nurse victim card and make physicians out to be evil. In the real world, no one really cares. You will always have a couple of uppity nurses who think they are equal to doctors, and you will always have dick doctors that think nurses are below janitors on the totem pole. Outside of the statistical outliers, real world workers in the healthcare field just want to do their job. Not have a glorified pissing contest. I think many nursing instructors are on the all doctors are evil kick because many have not practiced in the field recently but have only taught. Of course when your only exposure to real life healthcare is through the education system, you will push the propaganda the large nursing organizations are pushing. The last time a lot of my instructors even worked as a nurse, nurses still wore white skirt/hats, and were primarily making beds and cleaning up people.