Does the punishment fit the crime?

[deleted480308]

Less or more would both be fine, but this middle ground is the worst of all worlds. You have employees who are 'owned' by their employer in a way that much more closely resembles the military than a normal private employer, but those employees have none of the thousands of protections that organizations like the military put in place to try and mitigate employee abuse.

We share a disdain for the middle ground

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[gutonc]

You're preaching to the choir about how bad govt licensing of professions is (even when subcontracted to private entities)....but my response would be less regulation, not requiring when someone can and can't be fired.

Your objection is philosophical (which I disagree with, but greatly respect). Perrotfish's is because he had a crappy residency experience.

 

[deleted480308]

Your objection is philosophical (which I disagree with, but greatly respect). Perrotfish's is because he had a crappy residency experience.

And I know a few with crappy residencies. I'd like to clarify that my desire to deregulate is to allow options to the hazing indentured servitude that is our current system

 

[gutonc]

And I know a few with crappy residencies. I'd like to clarify that my desire to deregulate is to allow options to the hazing indentured servitude that is our current system

I actually think that the old "free market" system was even worse.

 

[deleted480308]

I actually think that the old "free market" system was even worse.

I don't know your age but we haven't had my notion of free market training in quite some time

 

[gutonc]

I don't know your age but we haven't had my notion of free market training in quite some time

I was going back to the 50s and 60s.

 

[Perrotfish]

Your objection is philosophical (which I disagree with, but greatly respect). Perrotfish's is because he had a crappy residency experience.

Apparently the only people who are allowed to have an opinion are attendings who loved their residencies and medical schools. Ideally the kind of attendings who have chosen a career in academia, as dependent on this system as a tick is on a dog.

Because they have the best perspective.

 

[Goro]

You're making the exact same argument that the judge did in the Brock Turner case. It didn't fly for the Judge, Turner, Turner's victim nor your argument, for that matter.

Just because someone went to school for a long time, or was an athlete, and has a nice potential career in front of them, doesn't mean that they deserve extra slack where justice is concerned.

Again, actions have consequences.

So you think smashing someones 400$ cell phone (which you will be forced to replace) is the same as being locked out of practicing a specialty you spent 8 years (school-residency) training for? A lifetimes income as a neurologist in other words?

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[VA Hopeful Dr]

Apparently the only people who are allowed to have an opinion are attendings who loved their residencies and medical schools. Ideally the kind of attendings who have chosen a career in academia, as dependent on this system as a tick is on a dog.

Because they have the best perspective.

Yeah, that's exactly it...

You had a bad experience and so want to overhaul the system. I had a decent one and so want things to stay the same. Why is my desire less important that yours.

Note: I'm in private practice, no academic anything.

 

[DokterMom]

And she isn't "being locked out." She committed battery in a drunken way and likely violated her employment contact, and the hospital fired her as result. She's welcome to go elsewhere, as she apparently has.

She did have the great misfortune of 1) being recorded and 2) having her Facebook pictures leaked. That sucks, and I feel badly for her. Everybody deserves redemption, which Google sometimes makes impossible.

I don't think a drunken mistake makes her a bad person. Who knows what else was going on in her life? But actions have consequences, and the hospital had every right to fire her and perhaps even an obligation. At the very least, the rules are the rules, and they apply to everybody.

Selectively edited above --

The thing is, she knew she was being recorded and didn't pull it together. And she went on and on and on for five full minutes. Watch the video - it's a long, long, long time. Sure, anyone can pop off stupidly while their inhibitions are reduced. And I'd agree that 30 seconds of absolute stupidity shouldn't ruin someone's life. But this was five+ minutes. If she can't pull it at least semi-together (while knowingly being filmed for heaven's sake!) to change her tactic from "You worthless piece of !@#$ Take me home now!" to "I'm so sorry. My life is falling apart and I need to go home. Will you take me please?" Alcohol lowers inhibitions. Her inhibitions were lowered -- and this is what came tumbling out. This behavior didn't suddenly appear from thin air -- it lives there and is a regular part of her repertoire.

The issue is that medical education is so long, so relentlessly abusive, so expensive (funded by non-dischargable loans), and so unforgiving of failure that failing or firing someone really destroys their life. No sane court system would give someone 10 years in prison and a million dollar fine for what this video showed, but that's effectively what this physician's residency is doing by firing her. Honestly this is one of the biggest problems with our medical training system: there is just no middle ground between complete success and absolute destitution, and so when someone needs remediation educators/employers are always left trying to figure out which is better of two bad options. No one would blink an eye if an attending was fired for this kind of behavior, but firing a resident is an insanely harsh penalty regardless of the crime.

It's not a 10-year sentence. If she was in her fourth year, she's completed enough training to practice general medicine. No, she's not BC or BE as a neurologist. But she can work in a doc in the box or a clinic that can't afford to be picky. Or she can work for someone willing to take her at a below-market rate and profit from her abilities. Or she can work for Daddy or Uncle or Auntie.

Or she can work for someone who can't tell time and isn't able to differentiate between a "30-second completely out of character aberration" and a dangerous and disruptive personality trait.

 

[doctalaughs]

I have no sympathy for her. Most of us cannot imagine ourselves behaving like that so it's hard to feel bad for her.

If you spent years building up a successful restaurant business and then one day a customer caught you on video taking a big dump in the soup pot, would it be fair you lost you livelihood over "a few minutes of bad judgement?" That is how I see this.


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[calvnandhobbs68]

Apparently the only people who are allowed to have an opinion are attendings who loved their residencies and medical schools. Ideally the kind of attendings who have chosen a career in academia, as dependent on this system as a tick is on a dog.

Because they have the best perspective.

I liked your original post better before the edit.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I have no sympathy for her. Most of us cannot imagine ourselves behaving like that so it's hard to feel bad for her.

If you spent years building up a successful restaurant business and then one day a customer caught you on video taking a big dump in the soup pot, would it be fair you lost you livelihood over "a few minutes of bad judgement?" That is how I see this.


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Love it.

Hey man but I was just drunk when I crapped in that soup! Don't shut me down over one drunken decision!

 

[lymphocyte]

This behavior didn't suddenly appear from thin air -- it lives there and is a regular part of her repertoire.

We simply don't know the whole story, about her or even about what happened. We just have a snippet of both. If she were an anonymous or powerful person, I'd speculate till the cows came home (and often do). But she's not. She's a real human being, in a vulnerable position, being discussed on a public forum.

From one of her interviews:

"We actually settled while we were out there. I paid for the damages and I apologized to him and he accepted my apology," Ramkissoon said. "I’m so thankful that he did not press charges, that he did not have me arrested." "I think it’s ridiculous and I’m here to own up to what I did." "I’m taking responsibility for it and I’m asking for forgiveness."
​

That's not exactly the non-apology of a deeply narcissistic person (cf. the lying shame that is 32-year-old Ryan Lochte).

She's not sympathetic--I get that--and I think she was rightfully fired. The rules are the rules, and doctors should be held to the highest standards.

But how much does a person need to suffer to make amends? Just Google her last name and read some of the comments. Many are frankly abusive and more than a little scary. In my view, the "punishment," when including the totality of hatred directed against her, does not, in fact, fit the crime--and we shouldn't forget that no charges were actually filed. Two private citizens worked it out, until a few unrelated parties decided to megaphone the situation across the internet.

I'd also like to point out the blatantly obvious fact that she's an attractive young doctor who was abusively mean to a quiet male driver. Lots of things are going here, and my speculation about personality wouldn't be limited to her, but to some of the people most vociferous about her (not saying this is you or anybody here, but Reddit is a lovely way to spend an afternoon losing faith in "nice guys" grappling with their own insecurities and frustrations about women). The vitriol wasn't nearly the same when that Taco Bell executive beat the crap out of his Uber driver and then sued him, which 1) happened almost exactly the same day, 2) involved people nearly the same age, and 3) had about the same disparity in class.

It's true that men often get punished more, but women sure do get shamed an awful lot. I feel like this situation (+ the Taco Rage incident) is another example of that.

Anywho. The victim forgives her, and her career has been seriously damaged regardless. Nothing more to ask for. At the same time, everybody deserves redemption, and I hope she finds it eventually.

 

[DokterMom]

Nicely said @lymphocyte -- And I do agree that the shame, scorn and vitriol heaped upon her was over the top, especially, as you so reasonably point out, when compared to the treatment of the Taco Bell driver in a 'as comparable as it gets aside from gender' situation.

While I do believe her remorse is sincere (how could it not be?) I am curious though how much remorse she would have felt had she not been filmed, publicly vilified, shamed and ultimately fired? There's remorse for the actions, remorse for the consequences and remorse for the actions because of the consequences and I suspect there's a whole lotta that going on here.

 

[Psai]

I don't understand why you're trying to equate two different incidents. We're on studentdoctor network and discussing the actions of a doctor. That's the only thing that matters. She had an incredibly crappy attitude, "who do you think you are, do you know who I am?" It just doesn't jive with how a doctor should conduct their actions in public. It was also very prolonged, with repeated attacks and destruction of property despite full knowledge that she was being filmed.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

We simply don't know the whole story, about her or even about what happened. We just have a snippet of both. If she were an anonymous or powerful person, I'd speculate till the cows came home (and often do). But she's not. She's a real human being, in a vulnerable position, being discussed on a public forum.

From one of her interviews:

"We actually settled while we were out there. I paid for the damages and I apologized to him and he accepted my apology," Ramkissoon said. "I’m so thankful that he did not press charges, that he did not have me arrested." "I think it’s ridiculous and I’m here to own up to what I did." "I’m taking responsibility for it and I’m asking for forgiveness."
​

That's not exactly the non-apology of a deeply narcissistic person (cf. the lying 32-year old shame that is Ryan Lochte).

She's not sympathetic--I get that--and I think she was rightfully fired. The rules are the rules, and doctors should be held to the highest standards.

But how much does a person need to suffer to make amends? Just Google her last name and read some of the comments. Many are frankly abusive and more than a little scary. In my view, the "punishment," when including the totality of hatred directed against her, does not, in fact, fit the crime--and we shouldn't forget that no charges were actually filed. Two private citizens worked it out, until a few unrelated parties decided to megaphone the situation across the internet.

I'd also like to point out the blatantly obvious fact that she's an attractive young doctor who was abusively mean to a quiet male driver. Lots of things are going here, and my speculation about personality wouldn't be limited to her, but to some of the people most vociferous about her (not saying this is you or anybody here, but Reddit is a lovely way to spend an afternoon losing faith in "nice guys" grappling with their own insecurities and frustrations about women). The vitriol wasn't nearly the same when that Taco Bell executive beat the crap out of his Uber driver, which 1) happened almost exactly the same day, 2) involved people nearly the same age, and 3) had about the same disparity in class.

It's true that men often get punished more, but women sure do get shamed an awful lot. I feel like this situation (+ the Taco Rage incident) is another example of that.

Anywho. The victim forgives her, and her career has been seriously damaged regardless. Nothing more to ask for. At the same time, everybody deserves redemption, and I hope she finds it eventually.

Uh I don't know about the Taco Bell driver thing. I remember seeing that on quite a few major news site when that happened...which also resulted in the exec losing his job the same day. The website about her just looks like some person (that she was probably an ass to at some point) or some relative/friend of the uber drive made. Anyone can go make a website, it's doesn't mean there's some coordinated "shaming" effort.

Oh hey look reddit doesn't like the Taco Bell guy either.
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comme..._now_suing_uber_driver_for_5/#bottom-comments

 

[lymphocyte]

Uh I don't know about the Taco Bell driver thing. I remember seeing that on quite a few major news site when that happened...which also resulted in the exec losing his job the same day. The website about her just looks like some person (that she was probably an ass to at some point) or some relative/friend of the uber drive made. Anyone can go make a website, it's doesn't mean there's some coordinated "shaming" effort.

Oh hey look reddit doesn't like the Taco Bell guy either.
https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comme..._now_suing_uber_driver_for_5/#bottom-comments

Would you like to compare the top comments from each?

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/41y0h7/drunk_girl_gets_in_someone_elses_uber_driver/

 

[lymphocyte]

While I do believe her remorse is sincere (how could it not be?) I am curious though how much remorse she would have felt had she not been filmed, publicly vilified, shamed and ultimately fired? There's remorse for the actions, remorse for the consequences and remorse for the actions because of the consequences and I suspect there's a whole lotta that going on here.

I agree. She probably felt a lot more remorseful as result. But I'd imagine that the vast majority of people would. Few people have a totally internalised sense of guilt, and shame goes a long way toward facilitating it in the meantime. Some need it way more than others though.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Would you like to compare the top comments from each?

https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/41y0h7/drunk_girl_gets_in_someone_elses_uber_driver/

Yeah it's pretty similar to the second top comment on the other page:
"Dude's status as a sociopath who should have been aborted is now completely confirmed."

You're really reaching.

 

[FaisalResidency]

Is there a felony, arrested or conduct clause in residency programs? If not she could have a case.

 

[Arcan57]

No, it doesn't. I've terminated a handful of residents over the years. Every single one of them has found a way to continue. Sometimes, given the gravity of the issues involved, I worry that the system may be too forgiving.

You're screwing up the narrative. Everyone knows that any kind of failure is impossible to overcome and the only rational response is to give up completely.

Nicely said @lymphocyte -- And I do agree that the shame, scorn and vitriol heaped upon her was over the top, especially, as you so reasonably point out, when compared to the treatment of the Taco Bell driver in a 'as comparable as it gets aside from gender' situation.

While I do believe her remorse is sincere (how could it not be?) I am curious though how much remorse she would have felt had she not been filmed, publicly vilified, shamed and ultimately fired? There's remorse for the actions, remorse for the consequences and remorse for the actions because of the consequences and I suspect there's a whole lotta that going on here.

To be fair, I don't think societal expectations for a Taco Bell exec (who one assumes has already shown callous disregard for public welfare based on some of their menu items) are the same as for a physician. I agree that the fact that she was female and came from a privileged background encouraged groups to add their particular prejudice into the conversation. I would doubt that some Internet troll's comments had any bearing on the decision to terminate her, however.

 

[gutonc]

Is there a felony, arrested or conduct clause in residency programs? If not she could have a case.

Not sure about that, but mine had a very vague "professional behavior" clause, that I assume most of them do. In that case, she's hosed.

 

[pulmoblast]

Is it wrong for me to demand that since she is hot she should be allowed to continue ??


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[dawson203]

Is it wrong for me to demand that since she is hot she should be allowed to continue ??


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I second that, hot doctors should get at least an extra pass

 

[bannie22]

Medicine preaches empathy but itself is the least empathetic field

 

[chocomorsel]

No, it doesn't. I've terminated a handful of residents over the years. Every single one of them has found a way to continue. Sometimes, given the gravity of the issues involved, I worry that the system may be too forgiving.

This isn't always the case. The fact that most new PDs want a letter from the old PD makes moving forwa d very difficult. I know personally of two people still in limbo.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

This isn't always the case. The fact that most new PDs want a letter from the old PD makes moving forwa d very difficult. I know personally of two people still in limbo.

It's unacceptable if a prior PD won't generate a letter at all. Everyone deserves a letter that fairly reports their performance, and their problems.

 

[Keona]

I don't think she has another residency job. I can't find her anywhere on google currently with her name but she may have changed it or new residency might not be publicizing it I guess. I can't think that as a resident I would want to have her as part of our group of residents though.

 

[gasman6942]

I am on the latter half of finishing my residency in the Miami area. Close to home, last January 2016 a neurology resident at University of Miami Anjali Ramkissoon made national headlines for a notorious incident with an uber driver. This was caught on camera, uploaded and went viral. She was in the final year of her neurology residency and was subsequently terminated in April 2016 just prior to what I would presume would have been a June 2016 graduation.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...er-driver-viral-video-fired-article-1.2611674

I am in no way condoning her actions but I cannot help but wonder, does the punishment fit the crime? To think back to my own experiences which many others who read this may share, I have been planning out how to become a physician since I was in high school 12 years ago; shadowing doctors, identifying colleges with high medical school acceptance rates, completing all the pre-med courses, unpaid research, thousands of hours of time preparing for tests, hundreds of thousands of dollars invested awaiting repayment. I am very optimistic now that I am almost at the end of the journey of becoming an attending physician and to imagine having that taken away in one sudden swoop is a devastating thought. To this end, I am deeply sympathetic with Dr. Ramkissoon. I do not know her personally, but I know personally the hours of time, and efforts she had to have invested to be in the position she was professionally.

After some consideration and thought, I am of the opinion that her punishment of losing her residency, and thus probably her career as a budding neurologist does not fit the 'crime' of belligerently berating and perhaps physically injuring an innocent person while in an altered [intoxicated] state of mind one night of her life. We all have bad nights, and I am of the opinion that if she wasn't a physician, she would be one of many people who lost their cool and acted inappropriately on a drunken weekend night out and would not have made national headlines. I think the bottom line is that physicians, resident physicians, medical students and anyone on this journey need to be also recognized as human beings vulnerable to stressors, that we do indeed make mistakes in our private lives and have bad days. I am in agreement perhaps that physicians need to be held to higher standards due to an oath taken to act out of the benefit for others first and that we are never really "off duty" as our personal and professional identities are sometimes deeply interwoven. With regard to this resident though, I can guess if she has matriculated this far in her program, she has the knowledge required and bedside manner to treat patients with neurological illness. She should be reprimanded for her inappropriate behavior, but perhaps with a leave of absence where she can undergo mental health counseling, community service and other sorts of punishment that do not erase the years and efforts of progress she has made.

I have read a lot of things in the media, but none from the medical community, moreso from outraged individuals who do not have a good conception of this journey of becoming an attending physician. I am intrigued in the opinions of other residents and those in the medical community and just putting this out there to see how people feel. Thank you for reading.

 

[gasman6942]

I am on the latter half of finishing my residency in the Miami area. Close to home, last January 2016 a neurology resident at University of Miami Anjali Ramkissoon made national headlines for a notorious incident with an uber driver. This was caught on camera, uploaded and went viral. She was in the final year of her neurology residency and was subsequently terminated in April 2016 just prior to what I would presume would have been a June 2016 graduation.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...er-driver-viral-video-fired-article-1.2611674

I am in no way condoning her actions but I cannot help but wonder, does the punishment fit the crime? To think back to my own experiences which many others who read this may share, I have been planning out how to become a physician since I was in high school 12 years ago; shadowing doctors, identifying colleges with high medical school acceptance rates, completing all the pre-med courses, unpaid research, thousands of hours of time preparing for tests, hundreds of thousands of dollars invested awaiting repayment. I am very optimistic now that I am almost at the end of the journey of becoming an attending physician and to imagine having that taken away in one sudden swoop is a devastating thought. To this end, I am deeply sympathetic with Dr. Ramkissoon. I do not know her personally, but I know personally the hours of time, and efforts she had to have invested to be in the position she was professionally.

After some consideration and thought, I am of the opinion that her punishment of losing her residency, and thus probably her career as a budding neurologist does not fit the 'crime' of belligerently berating and perhaps physically injuring an innocent person while in an altered [intoxicated] state of mind one night of her life. We all have bad nights, and I am of the opinion that if she wasn't a physician, she would be one of many people who lost their cool and acted inappropriately on a drunken weekend night out and would not have made national headlines. I think the bottom line is that physicians, resident physicians, medical students and anyone on this journey need to be also recognized as human beings vulnerable to stressors, that we do indeed make mistakes in our private lives and have bad days. I am in agreement perhaps that physicians need to be held to higher standards due to an oath taken to act out of the benefit for others first and that we are never really "off duty" as our personal and professional identities are sometimes deeply interwoven. With regard to this resident though, I can guess if she has matriculated this far in her program, she has the knowledge required and bedside manner to treat patients with neurological illness. She should be reprimanded for her inappropriate behavior, but perhaps with a leave of absence where she can undergo mental health counseling, community service and other sorts of punishment that do not erase the years and efforts of progress she has made.

I have read a lot of things in the media, but none from the medical community, moreso from outraged individuals who do not have a good conception of this journey of becoming an attending physician. I am intrigued in the opinions of other residents and those in the medical community and just putting this out there to see how people feel. Thank you for reading.

I am on the latter half of finishing my residency in the Miami area. Close to home, last January 2016 a neurology resident at University of Miami Anjali Ramkissoon made national headlines for a notorious incident with an uber driver. This was caught on camera, uploaded and went viral. She was in the final year of her neurology residency and was subsequently terminated in April 2016 just prior to what I would presume would have been a June 2016 graduation.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...er-driver-viral-video-fired-article-1.2611674

I am in no way condoning her actions but I cannot help but wonder, does the punishment fit the crime? To think back to my own experiences which many others who read this may share, I have been planning out how to become a physician since I was in high school 12 years ago; shadowing doctors, identifying colleges with high medical school acceptance rates, completing all the pre-med courses, unpaid research, thousands of hours of time preparing for tests, hundreds of thousands of dollars invested awaiting repayment. I am very optimistic now that I am almost at the end of the journey of becoming an attending physician and to imagine having that taken away in one sudden swoop is a devastating thought. To this end, I am deeply sympathetic with Dr. Ramkissoon. I do not know her personally, but I know personally the hours of time, and efforts she had to have invested to be in the position she was professionally.

After some consideration and thought, I am of the opinion that her punishment of losing her residency, and thus probably her career as a budding neurologist does not fit the 'crime' of belligerently berating and perhaps physically injuring an innocent person while in an altered [intoxicated] state of mind one night of her life. We all have bad nights, and I am of the opinion that if she wasn't a physician, she would be one of many people who lost their cool and acted inappropriately on a drunken weekend night out and would not have made national headlines. I think the bottom line is that physicians, resident physicians, medical students and anyone on this journey need to be also recognized as human beings vulnerable to stressors, that we do indeed make mistakes in our private lives and have bad days. I am in agreement perhaps that physicians need to be held to higher standards due to an oath taken to act out of the benefit for others first and that we are never really "off duty" as our personal and professional identities are sometimes deeply interwoven. With regard to this resident though, I can guess if she has matriculated this far in her program, she has the knowledge required and bedside manner to treat patients with neurological illness. She should be reprimanded for her inappropriate behavior, but perhaps with a leave of absence where she can undergo mental health counseling, community service and other sorts of punishment that do not erase the years and efforts of progress she has made.

I have read a lot of things in the media, but none from the medical community, moreso from outraged individuals who do not have a good conception of this journey of becoming an attending physician. I am intrigued in the opinions of other residents and those in the medical community and just putting this out there to see how people feel. Thank you for reading.

 

[gasman6942]

it maybe all of you idiots that went to a non US medical school realize that you don't have the stuff then you can adjust to our standards. I think we are going to start a MD US cert. board

 

[ThoracicGuy]

it maybe all of you idiots that went to a non US medical school realize that you don't have the stuff then you can adjust to our standards. I think we are going to start a MD US cert. board

Signs up today. Has three posts, all in this thread. Only one post has actual content. That content adds nothing constructive to the discussion. Responds to an almost year old thread.

 

[rokshana]

it maybe all of you idiots that went to a non US medical school realize that you don't have the stuff then you can adjust to our standards. I think we are going to start a MD US cert. board

really? unlike you who for some unfathomable reason felt the need to post in a dead thread and can't even manage to actually write your own words?

can we just ban him already?