Does this anger anyone else?

[irish80122]

I was searching around www.youtube.com and I came upon a magician/hypnotist/mentalist named Derren Brown from England. I strongly urge you guys to go check out his videos if you want to be angered, I know I am really livid right now. This guy says that some of what he does uses psychology, and it does (and hypnosis, and NLP, and others) but this guy is seriously lacking ethics and it is driving me mad! I am pulling together sources so I can submit a proposal to get human subjects permission as we speak and watching this and knowing that it is on national TV in England is sickening to me! Here are a few links to some of the clips which anger me the most. Also, one that I don't have a clip of is him playing Russian Roulette on TV, but you can read about that. The main problem I have is that there is no consent given beforehand and very little if any debriefing. I really makes me want to strangle this guy! If this ever happened to me, I would be more than upset. Anyways, check it out...some of it is cool stuff and fun to see, but it just infuriates me! I think these links will work but if not at least go see the Zombie video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjRAcajFte0&search=derren brown
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjwL_HexNf8&search=derren brown

There is also one involving people at a mall but I am not seeing it. At least look at the first one and tell me if anyone else is pissed especially if it is real but also if it isn't because it gives us a bad name.

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[Logic Prevails]

What is the world coming to?

 

[irish80122]

What is the world coming to?

Alright, guess it really doesn't worry anyone else. That concerns me too. Oh well.

 

[Dr.JT]

Alright, guess it really doesn't worry anyone else. That concerns me too. Oh well.

Of course it doesn't concern me. It is just entertainment, and stupid entertainment at that. I am not really sure why you are so concerned about this. You are treating it as though it is real research. Don't waste your concern on stupid stuff like this. There is plenty of more important things to get worked up about.

 

[irish80122]

Of course it doesn't concern me. It is just entertainment, and stupid entertainment at that. I am not really sure why you are so concerned about this. You are treating it as though it is real research. Don't waste your concern on stupid stuff like this. There is plenty of more important things to get worked up about.

Perhaps I have picked the wrong field? How can this not concern you? It is just entertainment? They re-did Milgram's experiment and are doing things to people without their knowledge or consent. Yes, it isn't research, but why do you think we have ethics? It is to protect the people as well as the field, and I think this is harming both. Seriously, does no one see that? Psyclops, what do you think?

I am concerned about this because of the reason we have ethics; to protect people. Why should that be limited to research? There is a reason we can't do Milgram's experiment anymore; why can he do it on national TV. At least in a lab we could give proper instructions and debriefing, but he doesn't do that. We do not do these things because they can harm people, and as such I don't understand how you can excuse it. It seriously concerns me that I already have two people against me. Please, if you guys have thoughts on the matter, please post them because I feel like I am nuts (and perhaps I am).

 

[Dr.JT]

Perhaps I have picked the wrong field? How can this not concern you? It is just entertainment? They re-did Milgram's experiment and are doing things to people without their knowledge or consent. Yes, it isn't research, but why do you think we have ethics? It is to protect the people as well as the field, and I think this is harming both. Seriously, does no one see that? Psyclops, what do you think?

I am concerned about this because of the reason we have ethics; to protect people. Why should that be limited to research? There is a reason we can't do Milgram's experiment anymore; why can he do it on national TV. At least in a lab we could give proper instructions and debriefing, but he doesn't do that. We do not do these things because they can harm people, and as such I don't understand how you can excuse it. It seriously concerns me that I already have two people against me. Please, if you guys have thoughts on the matter, please post them because I feel like I am nuts (and perhaps I am).

Why you insist on comparing this fake research done for entertainment to real research is puzzling. He is not a psychologist who does research in a psychology department or other legitimate scientific venue. The ethics you refer to don't apply. However, the law does. So the only question is whether he is breaking the law. And since it is fake, the answer is no.

 

[irish80122]

Why you insist on comparing this fake research done for entertainment to real research is puzzling. He is not a psychologist who does research in a psychology department or other legitimate scientific venue. The ethics you refer to don't apply. However, the law does. So the only question is whether he is breaking the law. And since it is fake, the answer is no.

You insist it is fake and I hope you are right. I see your point on the ethics but he is still doing it, at least part, in the name of psychology and doing things that may be harmful to people. That is why I don't understand why more people aren't upset, though actually there are a fair number who are in England. Why are we in this profession? I am here because I really want to help people honestly, and also protect them from harm. Yes, this isn't psychological research, but should we give him a pass because he isn't doing this in one of our universities?

I do see your point on the ethics I refer to not applying, I grant you that, but I am doing this (which you find puzzling) because I care about the people involved. Do we as psychologists and psychology students not care about an individual who is using psychological techniques in a way that could be psychologically damaging to people? To me, it is about the people, not just the psychology. Yes it may be in the world that is outside of academic psychology but I still would have expected that psychologists, knowing the possible ramifications, would be the first ones to speak out against this work. Be honest with me, is psychology about people or not? If not, perhaps I will go join the clergy, because for me it is.

One last point. There are many quacks that fill our airways talking about medical solutions which are fake and they are just there to make a buck. These people get sued, get criticized, and in the case of one individual whom I am thinking of get tossed off the airwaves. Why? Because they are causing damage to people medically. I know that this isn't completely analogous to that, but doesn't something seem similar to you?

I don't know, perhaps I am just nuts or too sensitive, that is possible. Let me say now that I am sorry for the attacking feeling of this post or my other ones, I don't mean to attack, I am just trying to best articulate my problem with this "entertainment".

 

[irish80122]

BTW, since I get going too much on this, I am going to let this be my last post (though I would be interested to see what other people think). Dr. JT, you get the last word. Thank you for the discussion; I have enjoyed it and appreciate it even though we disagree.

 

[Psyclops]

I have to admit, like you irish, obvious quackery that claims to use "psychological principles" can easily make me mad. For example, I wish we could ban psychics from using psych int he title of what they do. But this idiot has gone too far; in the sense that it is not in the least bit believable! I have no doubt in my mind that this is purely fake. In fact it makes me wish I were watching David Blane. I put this beyond mere parlor tricks, this is just a bunch of actors. What does frustrate me is that people are willing to buy into it. Assuming he were for real, I don't think even television stations (in the UK even) would let him do taht stuff. But really, this is laughable, his "friends" are just sitting there while he thinks he's getting attacked by zombies?!? I don't think so, they would have either stepped in. Or, like my freiends might have done: sat there laughing hysterically at me. They sit there with looks of concern and wonder on their faces. I didn't watch any more, it's stupid.

PS, I don't know that you have to think of people being with you or against you on this.

 

[Psyclops]

You insist it is fake and I hope you are right. I see your point on the ethics but he is still doing it, at least part, in the name of psychology and doing things that may be harmful to people. That is why I don't understand why more people aren't upset, though actually there are a fair number who are in England. Why are we in this profession? I am here because I really want to help people honestly, and also protect them from harm. Yes, this isn't psychological research, but should we give him a pass because he isn't doing this in one of our universities?

I do see your point on the ethics I refer to not applying, I grant you that, but I am doing this (which you find puzzling) because I care about the people involved. Do we as psychologists and psychology students not care about an individual who is using psychological techniques in a way that could be psychologically damaging to people? To me, it is about the people, not just the psychology. Yes it may be in the world that is outside of academic psychology but I still would have expected that psychologists, knowing the possible ramifications, would be the first ones to speak out against this work. Be honest with me, is psychology about people or not? If not, perhaps I will go join the clergy, because for me it is.

One last point. There are many quacks that fill our airways talking about medical solutions which are fake and they are just there to make a buck. These people get sued, get criticized, and in the case of one individual whom I am thinking of get tossed off the airwaves. Why? Because they are causing damage to people medically. I know that this isn't completely analogous to that, but doesn't something seem similar to you?

I don't know, perhaps I am just nuts or too sensitive, that is possible. Let me say now that I am sorry for the attacking feeling of this post or my other ones, I don't mean to attack, I am just trying to best articulate my problem with this "entertainment".

As for how we should deal with this tool? I would say ignoring would work best. Lets use some of what we know about people and let him die onthe vine, not giving hime the pleasure of an arguemtn from us.

I ca see that this touched a cord with you and maybe that's why it may be hard for you to initially see how stupid this guy is, not in the leaset bit believalbe from my standpoint.

Psychology is about alot of hitngs. One of them people, and helping them. I think you can make it about what you want to make it about. For you that sounds like it would be helping others, which is fine, admirable even.

 

[JatPenn]

These are hilarious. I'm sorry I really can't say these anger me too much, just because I guess I don't see this guy as being a representative of my field in the least.

 

[irish80122]

You guys are probably right, and I agree Psyclops that I don't need to see people as with or against me and that is why I called my objections off and also PMed Dr. JT just because I didn't want to insult, I just am really passionate at times. I also agree with you on the friends.

I know it is funny, and interesting, and I do appreciate the videos because of that. I just want to make sure that everyone is safe and no one is being harmed, but I do think I took it a bit too personally as well. I am sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to, but it was an interesting debate

 

[Dr.JT]

You guys are probably right, and I agree Psyclops that I don't need to see people as with or against me and that is why I called my objections off and also PMed Dr. JT just because I didn't want to insult, I just am really passionate at times. I also agree with you on the friends.

I know it is funny, and interesting, and I do appreciate the videos because of that. I just want to make sure that everyone is safe and no one is being harmed, but I do think I took it a bit too personally as well. I am sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't mean to, but it was an interesting debate

I have to say irish that I love and respect the energy you had behind this. And we need this type of energy with all the pseudoscience that unfortunately pervades our field. I just hated to see it wasted on this silly goose.

 

[Dr.JT]

I have to admit, like you irish, obvious quackery that claims to use "psychological principles" can easily make me mad. For example, I wish we could ban psychics from using psych int he title of what they do. But this idiot has gone too far; in the sense that it is not in the least bit believable! I have no doubt in my mind that this is purely fake. In fact it makes me wish I were watching David Blane. I put this beyond mere parlor tricks, this is just a bunch of actors. What does frustrate me is that people are willing to buy into it. Assuming he were for real, I don't think even television stations (in the UK even) would let him do taht stuff. But really, this is laughable, his "friends" are just sitting there while he thinks he's getting attacked by zombies?!? I don't think so, they would have either stepped in. Or, like my freiends might have done: sat there laughing hysterically at me. They sit there with looks of concern and wonder on their faces. I didn't watch any more, it's stupid.

PS, I don't know that you have to think of people being with you or against you on this.

Right on Psyclops. This falls into what I consider to be the low scientific IQ of the general public. People believe the most ridiculous things with no evidence to back it up. Just watch Larry King with a panel of psychics. They are treated as completely legitimate and not challenged on anything they claim. It perpetuates an antireason culture.

Now I have to get to my palm reading followed by my alien abduction support group. Have a nice day and try to get those thetans out of your body for optimal mental health.

 

[psychgeek]

But this idiot has gone too far; in the sense that it is not in the least bit believable! I have no doubt in my mind that this is purely fake. In fact it makes me wish I were watching David Blane. I put this beyond mere parlor tricks, this is just a bunch of actors. What does frustrate me is that people are willing to buy into it. .

I have to agree that this would be terribly upsetting if it weren’t complete BS. In the first video the friends’ reactions are ridiculous. If one of my friends suddenly slumped over and became unresponsive for no particular reason, it would be cause for alarm. They stand around staring at one another until a strange man recruits them to help load their friend onto a gurney. No calls for an ambulance, no trying to revive him, not even some expression of surprise.

The annoying aspect of this is that it reinforces the public’s view that psychology is kinda like magic. It would be awesome if I could just hypnotize my patients’ depression away, but I can’t, and it sucks that some people come into therapy with these expectations only to have them disappointed.

 

[irish80122]

I have to agree that this would be terribly upsetting if it weren’t complete BS. In the first video the friends’ reactions are ridiculous. If one of my friends suddenly slumped over and became unresponsive for no particular reason, it would be cause for alarm. They stand around staring at one another until a strange man recruits them to help load their friend onto a gurney. No calls for an ambulance, no trying to revive him, not even some expression of surprise.

The annoying aspect of this is that it reinforces the public’s view that psychology is kinda like magic. It would be awesome if I could just hypnotize my patients’ depression away, but I can’t, and it sucks that some people come into therapy with these expectations only to have them disappointed.

True. The funny thing is I wrote this video off as fake the first time I saw it, but then I saw some of his other things and that is what got me going. Maybe it all is fake, I don't know, but I do hope it is.

Also, no worries, I will have plenty of energy for the more important issues as well...I am just still coming upon all of these issues.