Does this mean I can't handle residency?

[mwsapphire]

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Hi
I'm just a pre med and this is super, super premature but I'm wondering.
I generally try to get at least 7 hours of sleep, I did in HS, and I do now in College. I hate being all groggy, but I can stay up late when I need to. I generally don't understand how people have such poor sleeping habits for no reason whatsoever.

An older pre med told me this means I won'd be able to handle residency? residency is hard for everyone, and the lack of sleep is hard on everyone, isn't it? It takes some getting used to , and most people's bodies adjust, right? It's only for two years? I mean, in my opinion, you should try to sleep as much as you can before residency so that you don't burn out ( your body can handle minimal sleep for some time, but it'll burn out eventually.I had a friend who went to a vigorous private HS, so she got into the habit of less than five hours of sleep. She says, now in UGrad, she needs at least 6 hours , she thinks she needs to "recover" from being so sleep deprived in HS. Thoughts?

 

[doctorleospaceman]

Well if an "older premed" said so then it must be true.

 

[Dagrimsta1]

It's all about habits.. I used to work 2 jobs from 5 am up to 8pm. I hated life for exactly 2 weeks. Eventually I grew immune to the bull****. Either you suck it up or change careers.

 

[md-2020]

Hi
I'm just a pre med and this is super, super premature but I'm wondering.
I generally try to get at least 7 hours of sleep, I did in HS, and I do now in College. I hate being all groggy, but I can stay up late when I need to. I generally don't understand how people have such poor sleeping habits for no reason whatsoever.

An older pre med told me this means I won'd be able to handle residency? residency is hard for everyone, and the lack of sleep is hard on everyone, isn't it? It takes some getting used to , and most people's bodies adjust, right? It's only for two years? I mean, in my opinion, you should try to sleep as much as you can before residency so that you don't burn out ( your body can handle minimal sleep for some time, but it'll burn out eventually.I had a friend who went to a vigorous private HS, so she got into the habit of less than five hours of sleep. She says, now in UGrad, she needs at least 6 hours , she thinks she needs to "recover" from being so sleep deprived in HS. Thoughts?

youll also need less sleep as you get into your 20s.

and residencies are seldom 2 years....the things i would give for all of them to be so though! 🙂

 

[WedgeDawg]

I slept like 8-10 hrs/day in undergrad and pre-clinical med school. I sleep 6 hrs/day on clinical on average. The first 5-10 minutes after waking up sucks but then you're good to go. You adjust. It's not something to worry about.

 

[mwsapphire]

Well if an "older premed" said so then it must be true.

My mom also said it so Idk? I just heard it from too many sources at once so I'm getting a bit nervous and somebody else on here posted about having anxiety issues, not being a night person, and having failed orgo twice and everybody told them he wouldn't be able to handle residency.

 

[redferrari]

A pre-med told you that you wouldn't be able to handle residency...

What the hell does a pre-med know about residency? I'm a med student and even I only have a vague concept of residency at this point.

 

[LizzyM]

My mom also said it so Idk? I just heard it from too many sources at once so I'm getting a bit nervous and somebody else on here posted about having anxiety issues, not being a night person, and having failed orgo twice and everybody told them he wouldn't be able to handle residency.

Failing orgo twice might be a better predictor of not being able to handle residency, or medical school, than just being someone who needs their beauty sleep.

There are rules regarding duty hours during residency. Some of them are like this:
Maximum Duty Period Length
VI.G.4.a) Duty periods of PGY-1* residents must not exceed 16 hours in duration.
VI.G.4.b) Duty periods of PGY-2** residents and above may be scheduled to a maximum of 24 hours of continuous duty in the hospital. Programs must encourage residents to use alertness management strategies in the context of patient care responsibilities. Strategic napping, especially after 16 hours of continuous duty and between the hours of 10:00 p.m. and 8:00 a.m., is strongly suggested.

Over a 4 week period, you can't be required to work more than 80 hr/wk although that can go up to 88 hours in some circumstances.

If you make sleep a priority and make good use of your time when you are awake, you should be able to manage.
*Post Graduate Year 1
**Post Graduate Year 2

 

[mwsapphire]

Failing orgo twice might be a better predictor of not being able to handle residency, or medical school, than just being someone who needs their beauty sleep.

There are rules regarding duty hours during residency. Some of them are like this:
Maximum Duty Period Length
VI.G.4.a) Duty periods of PGY-1* residents must not exceed 16 hours in duration.
VI.G.4.b) Duty periods of PGY-2** residents and above may be scheduled to a maximum of 24 hours of continuous duty in the hospital. Programs must encourage residents to use alertness management strategies in the context of patient care responsibilities. Strategic napping, especially after 16 hours of continuous duty and between the hours of 10:00 p.m. and 8:00 a.m., is strongly suggested.

Over a 4 week period, you can't be required to work more than 80 hr/wk although that can go up to 88 hours in some circumstances.

If you make sleep a priority and make good use of your time when you are awake, you should be able to manage.
*Post Graduate Year 1
**Post Graduate Year 2

Mmmm :3 Thank you! Although, I did have to W my first round of Orgo due to not studying correctly, but that will definitely change this time! That first time was a fluke!

 

[Goro]

Get into medical school before worrying about what happens in residency.

Hi
I'm just a pre med and this is super, super premature but I'm wondering.
I generally try to get at least 7 hours of sleep, I did in HS, and I do now in College. I hate being all groggy, but I can stay up late when I need to. I generally don't understand how people have such poor sleeping habits for no reason whatsoever.

An older pre med told me this means I won'd be able to handle residency? residency is hard for everyone, and the lack of sleep is hard on everyone, isn't it? It takes some getting used to , and most people's bodies adjust, right? It's only for two years? I mean, in my opinion, you should try to sleep as much as you can before residency so that you don't burn out ( your body can handle minimal sleep for some time, but it'll burn out eventually.I had a friend who went to a vigorous private HS, so she got into the habit of less than five hours of sleep. She says, now in UGrad, she needs at least 6 hours , she thinks she needs to "recover" from being so sleep deprived in HS. Thoughts?

 

[mw18]

I slept like 8-10 hrs/day in undergrad and pre-clinical med school. I sleep 6 hrs/day on clinical on average. The first 5-10 minutes after waking up sucks but then you're good to go. You adjust. It's not something to worry about.

You guys are already on rotations up there? A year and half pre-clinical?

 

[mw18]

Get into medical school before worrying about what happens in residency.

I agree with this from the cart before the horse perspective and that worrying won't be at all useful if he doesn't go to/get into med school. I do think that looking at what the training for a career is like is valuable if you think it's incompatible with your life and lifestyle. I don't think that's the case here though.

 

[Tenk]

You act as though you go from college -> residency. Most people probably could not handle that change. Luckily there are four+ years in between to groom you.

 

[Levo]

People can adjust to almost everything. My first time on a 12 hour clinical rotation, I felt like I was dying by the end of it. A few months later I was seeing patients for 30 hours straight with only a couple 20 min breaks for food and a 1-2 hour nap. After that, 12 hour shifts were a breeze. When it comes down to it you can handle more than you think.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

An older pre med told me

Gunners gonna gun

 

[eteshoe]

I figure I'll sleep when I'm dead. Until then I'm trying to squeeze as many hrs as my body will allow.

...Though I guess it does help that I don't need a lot of sleep to function.

 

[Lannister]

I sleep 9-10 hours a night as an M1, and I'm slightly worried about M3/M4 and residency, but you do what you gotta do, right?

 

[Ismet]

Hi
I'm just a pre med and this is super, super premature but I'm wondering.
I generally try to get at least 7 hours of sleep, I did in HS, and I do now in College. I hate being all groggy, but I can stay up late when I need to. I generally don't understand how people have such poor sleeping habits for no reason whatsoever.

An older pre med told me this means I won'd be able to handle residency? residency is hard for everyone, and the lack of sleep is hard on everyone, isn't it? It takes some getting used to , and most people's bodies adjust, right? It's only for two years? I mean, in my opinion, you should try to sleep as much as you can before residency so that you don't burn out ( your body can handle minimal sleep for some time, but it'll burn out eventually.I had a friend who went to a vigorous private HS, so she got into the habit of less than five hours of sleep. She says, now in UGrad, she needs at least 6 hours , she thinks she needs to "recover" from being so sleep deprived in HS. Thoughts?

Current intern. Work 70-80 hours per week. I'm usually able to get 6-7 hours of sleep every night. I didn't get to this point overnight. I used to not be able to function in the morning and now 0530 is my wake up time and I feel rested. You adjust as you go and you develop a new normal.

"Sleeping as much as you can before residency" will do nothing to prevent burnout. I'm feeling the burn right now but that's because i'm 6 months in, I'm on a hard rotation with some very sad cases at times, and I haven't seen daylight (except for through a window today!!) in like 2 weeks because I go to work when it's dark, I work in a unit without windows, and I leave when it's dark. Sleep is not the issue here.

Also residency is 3+ years depending on what specialty you want to go into.

Failing orgo twice might be a better predictor of not being able to handle residency, or medical school, than just being someone who needs their beauty sleep.

There are rules regarding duty hours during residency. Some of them are like this:
Maximum Duty Period Length
VI.G.4.a) Duty periods of PGY-1* residents must not exceed 16 hours in duration.
VI.G.4.b) Duty periods of PGY-2** residents and above may be scheduled to a maximum of 24 hours of continuous duty in the hospital. Programs must encourage residents to use alertness management strategies in the context of patient care responsibilities. Strategic napping, especially after 16 hours of continuous duty and between the hours of 10:00 p.m. and 8:00 a.m., is strongly suggested.

Over a 4 week period, you can't be required to work more than 80 hr/wk although that can go up to 88 hours in some circumstances.

If you make sleep a priority and make good use of your time when you are awake, you should be able to manage.
*Post Graduate Year 1
**Post Graduate Year 2

Duty hours are changing this July. Interns will be allowed to work 24 hour shifts. 😀

 

[mwsapphire]

Get into medical school before worrying about what happens in residency.

I know, I know, I just think of every time I feel cranky/sleepy that I can't handle being a doctor....I'm paranoid...okay *shy face*

 

[WedgeDawg]

I sleep 9-10 hours a night as an M1, and I'm slightly worried about M3/M4 and residency, but you do what you gotta do, right?

You will adjust. It will suck for a bit and waking up is never actually fun, but you will adjust and it will be fine.

 

[libertyyne]

People can adjust to almost everything. My first time on a 12 hour clinical rotation, I felt like I was dying by the end of it. A few months later I was seeing patients for 30 hours straight with only a couple 20 min breaks for food and a 1-2 hour nap. After that, 12 hour shifts were a breeze. When it comes down to it you can handle more than you think.

How did you go from your first clinical rotations s to 30 hours of seeing patients in a few months?

 

[Lannister]

You will adjust. It will suck for a bit and waking up is never actually fun, but you will adjust and it will be fine.

Yeah, that's what I figure. So many people are like "omg you should stop doing that or M3 will destroy you". Why would I stop getting plenty of sleep before I need too?? Why not enjoy it while I can! Haha.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

People can adjust to almost everything. My first time on a 12 hour clinical rotation, I felt like I was dying by the end of it. A few months later I was seeing patients for 30 hours straight with only a couple 20 min breaks for food and a 1-2 hour nap. After that, 12 hour shifts were a breeze. When it comes down to it you can handle more than you think.

Agreed. I like to sleep 7-8 hours per night. My first week in boot camp, they kept us up for 3 days straight and then let us sleep for about an hour for two days after that. After that, any sleep felt great. On deployment and underway, we stand watch during the night and average about 6 hours of sleep, usually broken up into two 3-hour chunks. I did that for months at a time without a break. You just get used to it.

You can certainly get used to getting 5-6 hours per night and then once a week not sleeping much. Take it from someone who does that all the time and used to feel like he needed sleep.

 

[aalamruad]

Current intern. Work 70-80 hours per week. I'm usually able to get 6-7 hours of sleep every night. I didn't get to this point overnight. I used to not be able to function in the morning and now 0530 is my wake up time and I feel rested. You adjust as you go and you develop a new normal.

"Sleeping as much as you can before residency" will do nothing to prevent burnout. I'm feeling the burn right now but that's because i'm 6 months in, I'm on a hard rotation with some very sad cases at times, and I haven't seen daylight (except for through a window today!!) in like 2 weeks because I go to work when it's dark, I work in a unit without windows, and I leave when it's dark. Sleep is not the issue here.

Also residency is 3+ years depending on what specialty you want to go into.

Duty hours are changing this July. Interns will be allowed to work 24 hour shifts. 😀

This is off-topic but OP's question has been thoroughly answered so I think it's okay: any tips for dealing with compassion fatigue?

 

[Lannister]

This is off-topic but OP's question has been thoroughly answered so I think it's okay: any tips for dealing with compassion fatigue?

Lol would also like to know this, I was doing a derm case with an SP today and as he was going on and on about how worried he was I realized I could not care less about his mole.

 

[BeddingfieldMD]

Most people require between 7-9 hours of sleep each day. If you fall behind, your body will eventually catch up. You'll fall asleep in all sorts of weird places during residency.

Of course, residency may be a bit easier for folks on the extremes who only need 4-5 hours of sleep. But those people are very rare, and that is definitely not the norm among physicians.

Stop worrying. There are many reasons why you may never end up being a doctor. Requiring 7 hours of sleep each night isn't one of them.

Good luck!


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[Levo]

How did you go from your first clinical rotations s to 30 hours of seeing patients in a few months?

My first few rotations didn't have medical students stay overnight, but my trauma rotation had us do that once per week. This meant coming in at 5:30 to see the patients I was following in the trauma ICU, putting in a full day's work with the trauma team, then coming to every trauma team activation until 6am or so the next morning, which could be near-constant. If there was a lull in the traumas, I went with the overnight general surgery resident to see urgent consults. Come the next morning, I would again see the patients I was following in the trauma ICU, round with the team, then go home after rounding and seeing my patients (hopefully by 11am-12pm or so).

 

[jqueb29]

Don't go into surgery and you'll get plenty of sleep

 

[BeddingfieldMD]

Don't go into surgery and you'll get plenty of sleep

Actually I feel like internal medicine and OB can be similarly brutal in terms of residency schedule. Depending somewhat on the program, of course.


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[vm26]

Actually I feel like internal medicine and OB can be similarly brutal in terms of residency schedule. Depending somewhat on the program, of course.


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True , during my Transitional year (IM rotation), experienced the worst month of my life...busy in-patient service (uninsured/pt's not connected to primary care in the area), Q4 overnights that mounted to 36 hour shifts with 1-3 hours of sleep at the most...they no longer have this due to new regulations...weeks of night float during residency were much more humane

 

[Psai]

True , during my Transitional year (IM rotation), experienced the worst month of my life...busy in-patient service (uninsured/pt's not connected to primary care in the area), Q4 overnights that mounted to 36 hour shifts with 1-3 hours of sleep at the most...they no longer have this due to new regulations...weeks of night float during residency were much more humane

Thought transitional years were supposed to be this godsend of an extended m4 year

 

[vm26]

Thought transitional years were supposed to be this godsend of an extended m4 year

Overall the year was but that particular month, not so much...ICU was an easier rotation than that...

 

[Alienman52]

Out of curiosity, when a resident/med student does a 24-30 hr shift, do they get the day off the following day? Or do they at least get to go in a bit later???


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[efle]

coffee

 

[Azete]

Hi
I'm just a pre med and this is super, super premature but I'm wondering.
I generally try to get at least 7 hours of sleep, I did in HS, and I do now in College. I hate being all groggy, but I can stay up late when I need to. I generally don't understand how people have such poor sleeping habits for no reason whatsoever.

An older pre med told me this means I won'd be able to handle residency? residency is hard for everyone, and the lack of sleep is hard on everyone, isn't it? It takes some getting used to , and most people's bodies adjust, right? It's only for two years? I mean, in my opinion, you should try to sleep as much as you can before residency so that you don't burn out ( your body can handle minimal sleep for some time, but it'll burn out eventually.I had a friend who went to a vigorous private HS, so she got into the habit of less than five hours of sleep. She says, now in UGrad, she needs at least 6 hours , she thinks she needs to "recover" from being so sleep deprived in HS. Thoughts?

Needing 7 hours of sleep isn't a problem, because all of us do. The above, however, is a major problem -- why the **** is a high school curriculum so vigorous that their students are sleeping < 5 hours per night? And what parent would pay money to send their child there?

 

[Levo]

Out of curiosity, when a resident/med student does a 24-30 hr shift, do they get the day off the following day? Or do they at least get to go in a bit later???


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They get to finish early (generally by 11am or noon) on the second day. They'll then have from noon of that day until the start of their shift the following morning to sleep/do life stuff.

 

[jqueb29]

Actually I feel like internal medicine and OB can be similarly brutal in terms of residency schedule. Depending somewhat on the program, of course.


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How's anesthesia hours? I know it's program-dependent, but that's what I'm going into (and I see you are one) and it sounds like pretty chill hours at my institution at least.

 

[caffeinemia]

Hi
I'm just a pre med and this is super, super premature but I'm wondering.
I generally try to get at least 7 hours of sleep, I did in HS, and I do now in College. I hate being all groggy, but I can stay up late when I need to. I generally don't understand how people have such poor sleeping habits for no reason whatsoever.

An older pre med told me this means I won'd be able to handle residency? residency is hard for everyone, and the lack of sleep is hard on everyone, isn't it? It takes some getting used to , and most people's bodies adjust, right? It's only for two years? I mean, in my opinion, you should try to sleep as much as you can before residency so that you don't burn out ( your body can handle minimal sleep for some time, but it'll burn out eventually.I had a friend who went to a vigorous private HS, so she got into the habit of less than five hours of sleep. She says, now in UGrad, she needs at least 6 hours , she thinks she needs to "recover" from being so sleep deprived in HS. Thoughts?

One, the human brain doesn't fully mature till 24 or 25. At your stage, do what your body needs. Burn the candle later. Ignore your wholly ignorant "premed" friends and chase your dreams as you like. People are just trying scare you. Once you push yourself, you'll realize the limits of what you can do.

Me on PGY2 year: 28 hour shifts, 4 hour nap, party, 4 hour nap, 28 hour shift. Completely doable.

OR you could alternatively consider:

Radiology
Emergency Medicine (don't even pretend you guys go hard with your 16 shifts a month of 12 hours or whatever. Tickles).
Ophthalmology
Dermatology
Anesthesiology
Pathology

 

[mwsapphire]

Needing 7 hours of sleep isn't a problem, because all of us do. The above, however, is a major problem -- why the **** is a high school curriculum so vigorous that their students are sleeping < 5 hours per night? And what parent would pay money to send their child there?

Oh God, don't even get me started on that....

 

[Incis0r]

With the kind of demands imposed on you during residency and even just to get into med school, you guys deserve better pay, not declining pay.

And on top of that, you easily have 50+ hr workweeks.

Seriously, mad props to you guys.

 

[Psai]

One, the human brain doesn't fully mature till 24 or 25. At your stage, do what your body needs. Burn the candle later. Ignore your wholly ignorant "premed" friends and chase your dreams as you like. People are just trying scare you. Once you push yourself, you'll realize the limits of what you can do.

Me on PGY2 year: 28 hour shifts, 4 hour nap, party, 4 hour nap, 28 hour shift. Completely doable.

OR you could alternatively consider:

Radiology
Emergency Medicine (don't even pretend you guys go hard with your 16 shifts a month of 12 hours or whatever. Tickles).
Ophthalmology
Dermatology
Anesthesiology
Pathology

In EM, it's not the number of hours but the constant switching from days to nights that gets you. I'd rather do a 36 hour shift than a 12 hour day then a 12 hour night.

 

[Ismet]

Out of curiosity, when a resident/med student does a 24-30 hr shift, do they get the day off the following day? Or do they at least get to go in a bit later???


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You get at least 14 hours off after a 24 hour shift.

Med students aren't held to duty hours. Individual schools may have their own rules about how long a med student can work, but there's nothing like ACGME duty hours governing med students.

In EM, it's not the number of hours but the constant switching from days to nights that gets you. I'd rather do a 36 hour shift than a 12 hour day then a 12 hour night.

Not only that, but ED shifts are exhausting. At least in our busy ED, I was constantly "on" and working, then had to stay for an hour or so after my shift to do all of my notes because there was no time during the shift. I was more exhausted after an ED shift than I ever was after working a 15-16 hour shift on the wards. Takes a special kind of person to live that life.

 

[pioneer22]

the fact that a premed asks if their sleep patterns are compatible with residency shifts probably means no, you cannot handle residency

 

[Incis0r]

I think this may be why doctors are so cranky. They get no sleep during residency.

 

[mwsapphire]

the fact that a premed asks if their sleep patterns are compatible with residency shifts probably means no, you cannot handle residency

....It's not sleep patterns, i can sleep whenever. I just mean I'm not a person that can run on four hours every night for years. I can do that "strategic napping" thing mentioned above, I was just asking if there is time to do that.

 

[Redpancreas]

Hi
I'm just a pre med and this is super, super premature but I'm wondering.
I generally try to get at least 7 hours of sleep, I did in HS, and I do now in College. I hate being all groggy, but I can stay up late when I need to. I generally don't understand how people have such poor sleeping habits for no reason whatsoever.

An older pre med told me this means I won'd be able to handle residency? residency is hard for everyone, and the lack of sleep is hard on everyone, isn't it? It takes some getting used to , and most people's bodies adjust, right? It's only for two years? I mean, in my opinion, you should try to sleep as much as you can before residency so that you don't burn out ( your body can handle minimal sleep for some time, but it'll burn out eventually.I had a friend who went to a vigorous private HS, so she got into the habit of less than five hours of sleep. She says, now in UGrad, she needs at least 6 hours , she thinks she needs to "recover" from being so sleep deprived in HS. Thoughts?

You're being incredibly neurotic (I'm assuming the "older pre-med" is just your proxy). You're trying to think ahead and envision residency when I, as a third year med student, can't even do that.

Take it one step at a time and give each step your best work. Your most difficult days are still ahead of you and you can't afford to look too far ahead and get distracted by worries like this.


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[armybound]

I'm one of those people who used to require 8 hours of sleep to function properly.

You adjust to it. I get a lot less than 8 hours of sleep and I'm doing just fine. Don't worry about it.

 

[mwsapphire]

You're being incredibly neurotic (I'm assuming the "older pre-med" is just your proxy). You're trying to think ahead and envision residency when I, as a third year med student, can't even do that.

Take it one step at a time and give each step your best work. Your most difficult days are still ahead of you and you can't afford to look too far ahead and get distracted by worries like this.


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I literally spent half an hour debating with my mother that I don't need to practice pulling all nighters, so this thought was just on my mind. What are you , the thread police? I'm certainly not the only neurotic pre med on this website...

 

[Redpancreas]

I literally spent half an hour debating with my mother that I don't need to practice pulling all nighters, so this thought was just on my mind. What are you , the thread police? I'm certainly not the only neurotic pre med on this website...

Ok, I shouldn't have called out your neuroticism because it's a common thing here so I'm sorry for that.

As for the argument with your mom and this thought being on your mind, I can see how that has concerned you. My advice as a medical student is that humans always rise to adapt to their situations. Focus on excelling on your current one and remain happy.

The latter is very important because I'd suspect the leading cause of not being able to get up and handle the reduced sleep residency forces you into is depressive episodes.

I apologize if I rubbed you the wrong way. I just wanted to discourage you from looking that ahead far ahead.

Best of luck!


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[Anicetus]

I'm an MS3 and still waiting for the "you will adjust" to happen. It still hasn't.

I wake up daily feeling tired from less than 7 hours of sleep and only feel normal with 8 hours. It ends up being Monday-Friday needing caffeine or anything really to keep me from yawning all day and everyday I hope to obtain this "adjustment" everyone speaks of. I catch up my sleep on weekends if I don't have call.

Sleep neediness is genetic and I believe some of us just aren't built for residency/medicine but we can still artificially make ourselves awake like those who "adjusted" with stimulants and energy drinks.