Does this news worry anyone else: "Elimination of Psych Services at Cedars..."

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capsomere

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I just read this article on the Psychiatric Times website and I'm somewhat concerned:

"Elimination of Psych Services at Cedars-Sinai Could Foreshadow Similar Cutbacks Elsewhere"


Do any current attendings or residents care to comment on the implications of this phenomenon? Does anyone care to speculate as to whether or not this is no big deal or if it's something that might develop into something more serious?

If you were starting over again right now would you be any less likely to go into psychiatry given the future of healthcare in the US?

Thank you all in advance.

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Several inpatient units in my city have already shutdown. ED's are getting packed with patients awaiting placement.
 
I just read this article on the Psychiatric Times website and I'm somewhat concerned:

"Elimination of Psych Services at Cedars-Sinai Could Foreshadow Similar Cutbacks Elsewhere"


Do any current attendings or residents care to comment on the implications of this phenomenon? Does anyone care to speculate as to whether or not this is no big deal or if it's something that might develop into something more serious?

If you were starting over again right now would you be any less likely to go into psychiatry given the future of healthcare in the US?

Thank you all in advance.

I have a couple worries:

1. If one residency could shut down, other can. Hope I don't wind up at one that does. Pretty much every place I interviewed has existed for quite some time, seems well-funded, and hopefully, will exist for the next 5 years, at least. Gulp. If not, I'm assuming that is would be easier to find an advanced position in this case, than if you were dismissed or something.

2. Lack of access for patients. Which could mean that by the time I get done with training, there will be a surplus of under-managed patients out there. Trainwrecks that I have to fix. Yay?

What am I not worried about? Well, mainly, that psychiatry is very well positioned for the "new" system, IMO.

1. There's a huge shortage in all areas of psych, even in many desirable areas of the country.

2. It's one of the few medical fields left where it's at all possible to skip the insurance-driven system.

3. Geri psych will be huge, as they take on more roles in medication management (not just psych meds, but all meds) in the complicated old-people regimens.

4. Child is always going to be awesome. Huge Shortage + Bad Parents + Even bad parents tend to care about their kids...or the State does = Need for C&A.

5. We are the specialty (and the only one) who gets to spend any appreciable time with our patients (unless you're doing constant med mgt.) We need to capitalize on this, and show that we can SAVE the system tons of money by actually helping fix patients. How many Psych patients do you guys know who have Chronic Abd Pain, and have had a zillion organs removed in order to try and alleviate the sx? How many addicts? How many ER frequent flyers? How many misdiagnosed patients?

We need to position ourselves as the people can fix things other people can't, and save the system money in the process.

Speaking of ER Frequent Flyers: I'm doing ER right now, and we have people who are in once a week or so. Some patients have ~50 visits per year, ~500 since 2004, etc. Big numbers, big files, TONS of CT scans, other imaging.

Is there a common primary diagnosis for these people? Many of them CLEARLY have personality disorders, depression, anxiety...yet are rarely, if ever, referred to us. Is there a DSM dx for this? I don't know of one...Edit: I guess Somatization disorder is the closest, although they don't always seem to meet the multiple sites criteria. Hypochondriasis doesn't quite seem to fit either. Hmm...
 
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...
5. We are the specialty (and the only one) who gets to spend any appreciable time with our patients (unless you're doing constant med mgt.) We need to capitalize on this, and show that we can SAVE the system tons of money by actually helping fix patients. How many Psych patients do you guys know who have Chronic Abd Pain, and have had a zillion organs removed in order to try and alleviate the sx? How many addicts? How many ER frequent flyers? How many misdiagnosed patients?

We need to position ourselves as the people can fix things other people can't, and save the system money in the process.

Speaking of ER Frequent Flyers: I'm doing ER right now, and we have people who are in once a week or so. Some patients have ~50 visits per year, ~500 since 2004, etc. Big numbers, big files, TONS of CT scans, other imaging.

Is there a common primary diagnosis for these people? Many of them CLEARLY have personality disorders, depression, anxiety...yet are rarely, if ever, referred to us. Is there a DSM dx for this? I don't know of one...Edit: I guess Somatization disorder is the closest, although they don't always seem to meet the multiple sites criteria. Hypochondriasis doesn't quite seem to fit either. Hmm...

This is why I like working for a multispecialty integrated healthcare system--which I think is going to be more of the wave of the future than "skipping the insurance driven system" (IMHO, the medical equivalent of "going off the grid"). High-utilizers can be recognized, careplans can be placed in electronic charts accessible by primaries & specialists alike, psychiatrists can communicate easily with a primary, ED docs can see what the primary is doing, etc. It really does work, and it does deliver cost-effective care. And because we as psychiatrists provide value to the system in helping identify and TREAT difficult patients, instead of just turfing them to the next provider, the system is willing to subsidize our services in order to ensure access to them.
 
the system is willing to subsidize our services in order to ensure access to them.

Which means we do not get enough from reimbursements to pay for our own salaries? That's nice other specialties supporting the organization are willing to throw us a bone...
 
, the system is willing to subsidize our services in order to ensure access to them.

The system as a whole is increasingly unwilling to subsidize our services. That is why inpt psych units continue to close and the largest psych hospital is the US/states prison system. OldPsychDoc specifically mentioned "a multispecialty integrated healthcare system"; I do agree that these tend to be better at covering outpt and consultative services than other parts of the healthcare system.

TO the OP: I think psychiatry will be a good career for the forseeable future, as far as salary etc. Whether the average pt will have access to optimal psych care, esp inpt, is another question.
 
The system as a whole is increasingly unwilling to subsidize our services. That is why inpt psych units continue to close and the largest psych hospital is the US/states prison system. OldPsychDoc specifically mentioned "a multispecialty integrated healthcare system"; I do agree that these tend to be better at covering outpt and consultative services than other parts of the healthcare system.

TO the OP: I think psychiatry will be a good career for the forseeable future, as far as salary etc. Whether the average pt will have access to optimal psych care, esp inpt, is another question.

Mental note: Open a cash-only inpatient unit for the affluent. Only the best care for those that can afford it.
 
1. If one residency could shut down, other can. Hope I don't wind up at one that does. Pretty much every place I interviewed has existed for quite some time, seems well-funded, and hopefully, will exist for the next 5 years, at least.
II wouldn't be as worried about having your residency shut-down due to financial woes as I would the quality of your education suffering. What happened to Cedars is a bummer, but also pretty unusual.

What's not unusual is seeing programs and offerings by most residency programs cut-back. The number of inpatient beds reduced, the length of stays capped, the tertiary services eliminated, etc. If I were evaluating programs to apply to or rank, I'd be looking at how programs cope with that.

These sorts of changes are affecting most psych programs, even the big name ones. Even the top programs just have to do more with less. It's not a slight against any particular program, it's just a sign of the times.
 
3. Geri psych will be huge, as they take on more roles in medication management (not just psych meds, but all meds) in the complicated old-people regimens.
Old people regimens are complicated because they have many physical disorders. Geri psych's job isn't to manage their multiple physical medicine problems, which is what managing their CHF, diabetes, hypertension, HIV, CKF drugs is all about. Geri psych will be about knowing making sure your psych meds play well with others (and not just throw Celexa at everybody), but you hopefully won't be playing around with the various physical meds that some poor geriatrician has carefully tweaked out to keep the old-timer humming.
 
Sorry, not really "med management", but I have seen Geri Psych (at academic centers even) advertising a service to help organize an coordinate medications and med lists, including medical meds. We wouldn't be changing things per se, but evaluating the list in light of the patients' wishes, mental condition, and social situation. Almost more of a social work type thing, but informed by our medical training.
 
Regarding geri psych, I've heard that behind every corner of a geri psych patient lurks a lawyer waiting to sue your butt. A reason I'm very wary about practicing in this subspecialty.
 
This is why I like working for a multispecialty integrated healthcare system--which I think is going to be more of the wave of the future than "skipping the insurance driven system" (IMHO, the medical equivalent of "going off the grid"). High-utilizers can be recognized, careplans can be placed in electronic charts accessible by primaries & specialists alike, psychiatrists can communicate easily with a primary, ED docs can see what the primary is doing, etc. It really does work, and it does deliver cost-effective care. And because we as psychiatrists provide value to the system in helping identify and TREAT difficult patients, instead of just turfing them to the next provider, the system is willing to subsidize our services in order to ensure access to them.

I work for such an organization,too. The thing I don't like though is that for a variety of state regulations, mental health notes are protected. Therefore while I can easily read PCP, ED and other specialty notes, those practitioners can't read mine. I still need a signed release to share information with a provider in the same health system. This had led to the frustrating situation of people for whom I've denied benzodiazepine spinning a tale for their primary that I can read about, but do nothing to correct.
 
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I'll add this place too...

http://lindnercenterofhope.org/

Though recently they started accepting insurance.

Just wanted to add it's an irony. There's a shortage of psychiatrists but a stranglehold on what managed care will pay. E.g. if you accept insurance, you have to accept their pay agreements even if market forces would normally drive prices up.

Okay, yes, for those who don't buy into the economic reality that sometimes capitalism does some good by creating forces that provide new and better services through hard work and competition, doctors shouldn't practice with the sole goal of making money.

But the problem here is that while there is a shortage, market forces aren't increasing the amount of people going into psychiatry. While we can debate why, and money I'm sure isn't the entire reason, it's part of it. IF there's a freaking nationwide shortage, pay should go up, pay going up should lead to more people wanting to go into psychiatry.

But like I said, if the damned line in the sand is drawn and doesn't let you increase the amount of money being paid...kiss capitalistic forces goodbye.

Private pay is one thing but like what was already said, only a minority could afford it.

I can tell you this, where I'm at we're not having this problem as far as I can tell. The university hospital just opened up a bunch of new psych units.
 
Regarding geri psych, I've heard that behind every corner of a geri psych patient lurks a lawyer waiting to sue your butt. A reason I'm very wary about practicing in this subspecialty.

Don't know if this is true or not. I'm not saying it's not true. Though I am a forensic psychiatrist and I'm doing forensic psychiatric duties in my new academic job, they've put me on as an attending on a geriatric psychiatric unit in the mornings.

I had a talk with a veteran attending today in hospital system and he told me in the locality, malpractice suits have hit a low because expert witnesses are charging up the wazoo for their services that are needed in testimony for malpractice cases and the lawyers are sick of it. Further, many malpractice suits in this area in the past few years ended up with the plaintiff losing. Judges and juries are allegedly sick of medical malpractice and this just makes it tougher to win a case. Lawyers figure with low odds of winning and extremely high costs to launch a suit--forget about it. For better or worse, a lot of this phenomenon may be controlled by lawyers in cigar-smoke filled room. When that happens it can vary by the power base of that locality's whims.

Hey, this type of thing happens. It's a reason why a lot of forensic psychiatric fellows can't get good private cases. It's because a lot of the cases are given out based on a type of unofficial fraternity of predatory-minded lawyers wanting to work with only a few people that they rock-solid trust because there's too much at stake, their posh livelihoods. I know plenty of forensic psychiatrists (defined by training) that do no work it in after fellowship other than what any clinical psychiatrist would do (such as involuntary commitment) because they can't get into the fraternity so-to-speak.

Geri-psych certainly is a new challenge for me. I feel like I'm kinda undergoing fellowship again, and my direct boss on the unit is the head of the geri-psych fellowship here so I feel I got good support. As I learn more about this area I'll mention it here and there. One thing is certainly different and easier. Patients making suicidal threats that are truly malingering, at least so far, appears to be much less in this population. Usually when people hit advanced age, Axis II cluster B traits tend to moderate out, either that or the person has committed suicide before old age. Those are the cases I worried about the most in clinical psychiatry in terms of a lawsuit perspective.

The medical situation with these patients could be a liability issue that I'm not aware of yet, but we got IM checking these people out everyday, and I figure if anyone's liable there-it's them not us (though yes if there's a lawsuit--we'll get thrown in because lawyers do that) and we shouldn't worry about it so long as we did our job right. Something I am enjoying about this field so far is I got to work with the IM doctor on a level where it's resharpening my IM skills.
 
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Thank you everyone for all your thoughtful responses and for the enlightening conversation. I actually had the opportunity to hear from an attending psychiatrist at Cedars and he seems to have a MUCH grimmer view of these developments and went as far as to say that if they were starting over he would just go into internal/general/family medicine. He also feels as if he and his colleagues might very well end up being relegated to private practice if they end on staying in Southern California.

It sounds like, if I get the overall impression here, it's that given the right setting, i.e. an academic hospital or a hospital large enough to have a decently sized multispecialty integrated healthcare system, things will probably be okay.

I think I recall whopper mentioning in another thread that if you do at least 3 years of internal medicine as a resident, or do a fellowship in C-L then it becomes easier to get reimbursements from insurance companies for so-called non-psych services. Do any of you think, given how things may unfold, it will be more worthwhile to do 3 years of IM during residency or do a fellowship as a way of preparing for whatever cards the insurance companies may be waiting to play (at least more so than before)?
 
I think I recall whopper mentioning in another thread that if you do at least 3 years of internal medicine as a resident, or do a fellowship in C-L then it becomes easier to get reimbursements from insurance companies for so-called non-psych services. Do any of you think, given how things may unfold, it will be more worthwhile to do 3 years of IM during residency or do a fellowship as a way of preparing for whatever cards the insurance companies may be waiting to play (at least more so than before)?

The amount of money you'd lose by doing 3 extra years of residency would not be made up by a nominal increase in reimbursement. Don't do that. One year of C-L...maybe, although I kind of doubt even that. Do it if you love it.

I'm less sure about the insurance companies continuing to be all-powerful forever. People are already very, very fed up with insurance companies (denying claims for pretty much any reason, not covering things they said they would, fine print, etc, etc). In my area, I know of about a dozen primary care docs (this is a small town) who are going to cash-only retainer type practices this year. $75-125/month per person. Done.

As this continues to happen, you'll see more and more people dropping their insurance coverage, or moving to very high deductible plans. Then, they'll all be looking for ways to avoid using their insurance, the insurance companies will feel the belt tighten, and no one will care. Sell your insurance stock now people.

Now, government-run healthcare is another matter. I predict vast Medicare reimbursement restructuring, because they can't keep paying the absurd amounts they're paying for hip replacements. ER visits for non-emergencies will HAVE to be forcibly curbed, or we'll go bankrupt. EMTALA will be repealed or heavily modified to deal with that problem. They'll eventually go to a Single Payor system, making the insurance companies obsolete, and this single payor system will actually reimburse primary care, and psych fairly well (probably enough to make our $200k/year salaries), because the value of psychiatric care is being recognized by national and international healthcare organizations. Malpractice reform will also HAVE to happen as part of this package.

What we'll be left with is a two-tiered system. Gov't run healthcare for the poor/lower middle class and a private, cash-based, high-deductible "insurance" system for the richer half.

Now. The other option is that NONE (or few) of these things will happen. If our leaders fail to actually get anything meaningful done in the cost-cutting area, we're all kinda screwed. Our credit rating is jeopardized. We're running out of money fast. We can't keep upping our own credit limit forever. We have an educational system in crisis and dangerously poorly funded. We have a healthcare bubble that will explode without intervention. We have the housing bubble which, kind of popped, but like PCOS, others cysts have arisen. We have high racial tensions in many parts of the country. We have high class tensions in many parts of the country. Add in tensions between republicans and democrats, christians and muslims, christians and atheists, america and the middle east, america and china, north korea, and iran. Tension between the police and the public, the list goes on and on. This is starting to look like a George R.R. Martin novel.

If all these things were to come to a head at the same time, the result could look very, very nasty. Greece x 1000. WW3? Civil War 2? All of these at once? It could be very, very bad. I know it sounds a little paranoid, and I hope it's just some schizophreniform ranting, but our financial situation really is that bad. If it's not fixed, we could be in serious trouble, and I'm not sure the country can psychologically handle "serious trouble" right now.

I'd prefer the two-tiered system myself, seeing as how I don't own any guns.
 
I can assure you that psych residents in the other LA programs are concerned as the psychiatric emergency consultations are now being shifted to other ERs.
 
I think I recall whopper mentioning in another thread that if you do at least 3 years of internal medicine as a resident, or do a fellowship in C-L then it becomes easier to get reimbursements from insurance companies for so-called non-psych services.

Hmm, I'm blanking on that. I do recall saying that you shouldn't simply go into fellowship only for the money because you're actually losing about 125K+ in terms of lost attending salary for one year. (I'd estimate more than that because most fellowships work fellows hard--to the degree that if they were attendings it'd be on the order of a 200K/year salary if not more). If you get paid an extra 10K a year due to fellowship, it'll take over 10 years to get reimbursed for fellowship in terms of a purely monetary perspective. Also factor in that if you invest money wisely, you're losing one initial year of investment.

The fact of the matter is psychiatry usually doesn't make more money than other branches of medicine for a hospital system such as doing coronary bypasses. What the hospital system did where I work is they made an agreement with an older hospital that was pretty much putzing out and transferred the psychiatric units there so they could open more profitable floors in the actual main hospital.

With where I'm at, the issue was limited real estate as far as I could tell. It could be a hospital can't expand it's room so it'll cut out the least profitable departments. That said, psychiatry still makes money, so I don't think psychiatry is in danger in general.
 
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It's a numbers game that places like Cedars Sinai is playing - nothing more. The hospital has and always will be run as a profit making corporation. Cedars has two spine centers. One spinal fusion case can bring the hospital more than 60-75K in reimbursement compared to one psychiatric hospitalization that may end up costing the hospital money.
 
Is there a common primary diagnosis for these people? Many of them CLEARLY have personality disorders, depression, anxiety...yet are rarely, if ever, referred to us. Is there a DSM dx for this? I don't know of one...Edit: I guess Somatization disorder is the closest, although they don't always seem to meet the multiple sites criteria. Hypochondriasis doesn't quite seem to fit either. Hmm...

it's called abnormal illness behavior and is well described in the sociological literature.
 
incidentally the services they are keeping are the services that have traditionally been underfunded or ignored altogether - consultation-liaison psychiatry. Cedars is a transplant center in addition to being a major medical center and would not be able to continue with many lucrative areas if they got rid of the consult services.
 
incidentally the services they are keeping are the services that have traditionally been underfunded or ignored altogether - consultation-liaison psychiatry. Cedars is a transplant center in addition to being a major medical center and would not be able to continue with many lucrative areas if they got rid of the consult services.

The interesting thing is that organ transplantation is an area of huge academic prestige, but not a money maker. In fact, I think that organ transplantation costs them money.

Overall, I think the key point is that most departments are suffering and will be downsized over time. Inpatient medicine, which cedars psych had a big department, is very expensive to maintain.
 
Not exactly the same thing but along the same lines, the PD of my forensic program brought in a non-forensic article for journal club that month because he thought it was pertinent to the healthcare cost debate.

The article mentioned that for a hospital, though not for the healthcare system, several types of practice are cost-effective yet are very bad for the system in general. For example, having a coronary bypass is very expensive, but could be profitable for the hospital, but is more expensive to the system vs. interventions to make sure the patient didn't have an MI in the first place, and those practices are cost-ineffective.

The point being is that if you want to really want to lower healthcare costs, one option of medicine is to do things that make yourself or the system you are in less money.

If a hospital has 10 floors, adding another floor is not an option, one is psychiatry, and they could replace it with a more profitable type of practice, hospitals may choose to get rid of psychiatry. That's the way I'm interpreting this article. I could be off because I'm not at this hospital and don't know all the specifics of why they make their choice. Like I said above, I wouldn't exactly worry about my job over this article because they're not cutting due to decreased demand but decreased space.
 
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