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Does this not get old?

ArteryStudyPainting

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No matter what happens in medicine, school, and within our lives, no matter what when medicine starts screwing with life, it never fails when we're told "ah well. You chose this life".

At what point do people say, "yeah that's too much?".
 
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You shall know the Truth

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Medicine school sucks, I’m told it gets better (can’t substantiate), in retrospect many People would do things differently

keep pushing through, this is where you press into the adversity more and give it everything you have!
 
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JSReed

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I disagree, I would Have loved to help in the Er/icu during Covid
Right but like...with literally no PPE. Like DIY PPE (while masks are sold out everywhere).

I'm totally fine putting my life on the line for patients. But being forced to do so because of poor outbreak planning, lacking disease prevention measures, and terrible commodity forecasting (on the part of hospitals but more importantly government agencies) is a different issue imo.
 
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ArteryStudyPainting

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What is happening lol. Hyperbole, but here's my example: You could have an entire class jump off a building and instead of those in charge going, "oh my god. There must be something systemic here. Let's take an honest look and see what we can do from top, down."

But it really would be everyone (hyperbole) in charge going, "I mean, they chose medicine tho."
 
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slowthai

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What is happening lol. Hyperbole, but here's my example: You could have an entire class jump off a building and instead of those in charge going, "oh my god. There must be something systemic here. Let's take an honest look and see what we can do from top, down."

But it really would be everyone (hyperbole) in charge going, "I mean, they chose medicine tho."

You're not going to get them to care because their status quo depends on them not caring. They will gaslight, deflect, outright lie, project, and blame those they are negatively affecting in order to remain untouched. It's what they do. "Just more wellness lectures, you need to be doing yoga guysss"

Yeah, more mindfulness, wellness, self-careness, suckitupness, dowhatyouretoldness, domoreforlessness will solve all our problems. Thanks
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive

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You're not going to get them to care because their status quo depends on them not caring. They will gaslight, deflect, outright lie, project, and blame those they are negatively affecting in order to remain untouched. It's what they do. "Just more wellness lectures, you need to be doing yoga guysss"

Yeah, more mindfulness, wellness, self-careness, suckitupness, dowhatyouretoldness, domoreforlessness will solve all our problems. Thanks

Lol my favorite is when people feel like they’re drowning and feeling terrible, so the administration adds more mandatory wellness lectures.
 
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Lawpy

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No matter what happens in medicine, school, and within our lives, no matter what when medicine starts screwing with life, it never fails when we're told "ah well. You chose this life".

At what point do people say, "yeah that's too much?".

And people wonder why burnout happens...
 
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No matter what happens in medicine, school, and within our lives, no matter what when medicine starts screwing with life, it never fails when we're told "ah well. You chose this life".

At what point do people say, "yeah that's too much?".
Consider the flip side...having to listen to people complain about the choices they made willingly.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive

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Consider the flip side...having to listen to people complain about the choices they made willingly.

Choices they made willingly without really being able to understand what they were getting into.
 
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Yeah I get that, but honestly I don’t think shadowing for 50 or 100 hours can really tell you what it’s like.
50-100 hrs is what, one-two solid work weeks. One should not only get an idea of what a doctor's day is like, but more importantly, one should think out the questions to ask before spending 7-10 years of your life and going into debt to the tune of three-four Teslas.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive

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50-100 hrs is what, one-two solid work weeks. One should not only get an idea of what a doctor's day is like, but more importantly, one should think out the questions to ask before spending 7-10 years of your life and going into debt to the tune of three-four Teslas.

50-100 hours is the recommended amount of shadowing that basically every adcom on here recommends. I am saying I don’t think you can really know what it’s like until you’re doing it. That’s true for several professions. There are definitely people who don’t do their due diligence, but I think it’s possible to research the career and then realize it isn’t for you when you’re actually doing it.
 
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doesn't justify some attendings and admins being malignant
Absolutely not!

But you'll find this in any job. My wife had a PI who literally made her sick with stress-induced tendonitis.

And I've never told this story before. I had a PI who was looking at not getting tenure. So he started becoming mean and snappish. Also at the time, I was facing my stipend running out and having to find yet another post-doc job, which at the time was no picnic. Triggered my second bout of clinical depression and put me on Prozac for the first time.

And of those of you who have had to work prior to med school, think about the toxic co-workers you've head.
 
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star.buck

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50-100 hrs is what, one-two solid work weeks. One should not only get an idea of what a doctor's day is like, but more importantly, one should think out the questions to ask before spending 7-10 years of your life and going into debt to the tune of three-four Teslas.
Those wouldn’t be Model 3’s either, lol... more like several decked out Cyber Trucks
 
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ACSurgeon

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Part of the burn out of medicine is... burn out. This by definition happens after recurrent sleepless nights, missing many important life events, recurrent abuse, etc etc. you can shadow a doctor for a full year still think it’s a great gig. Only once you are years into it do you start to feel it. also, many doctors won’t reveal their stress and burnout to their students. I don’t think there’s anyway to simulate it ahead of time.

In theory medicine is diverse enough that there should be something for everyone. In reality, the path to becoming an attending breaks many people before they can find a job that allows the appropriate work/life and motivation/stress balance.

Finally, a lot of the negative aspects in medicine are self inflicted. The speciality you chose, the amount of hours you work, the size house you buy, the expensive car you get, etc etc.
 
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sliceofbread136

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No matter what happens in medicine, school, and within our lives, no matter what when medicine starts screwing with life, it never fails when we're told "ah well. You chose this life".

At what point do people say, "yeah that's too much?".

The point where you have the money to be financially independent. Unfortunately it seems the system is increasingly designed to make this as hard as possible
 
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deleted889094

Depends what we're talking about here.

Studying, research, having little free time, feeling overwhelmed by information - yeah, we chose that. Can't complain.

Being forced to work without PPE, unwarranted abuse from superiors, etc - you can complain about that if you'd like.
 
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NicMouse64

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It's impossible to explain to someone how the years and hours beat down on you. Everyone thinks they are immune. I've landed at the end of M2 feeling pretty good and some haven't made it here without massive burnout, mental breakdowns, anxiety, etc. Everyone has their breaking point. Medicine is pretty good at finding that breaking point for most people, but alas not everyone, and those who come out without hitting their breaking point look down upon the rest of their colleagues as weak and perpetuates the cycle. Who knows how we will be able to break this cycle.
 
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altblue

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It's impossible to explain to someone how the years and hours beat down on you. Everyone thinks they are immune. I've landed at the end of M2 feeling pretty good and some haven't made it here without massive burnout, mental breakdowns, anxiety, etc. Everyone has their breaking point. Medicine is pretty good at finding that breaking point for most people, but alas not everyone, and those who come out without hitting their breaking point look down upon the rest of their colleagues as weak and perpetuates the cycle. Who knows how we will be able to break this cycle.
Early second semester of M1 I pretty much reached mine, for a variety of reasons... some of which med school contributed to but some of which were a large pile of family, dating issues and acute illness. Did well enough and made it through without dinging my transcript up, but it took some therapy and lifestyle changes.

It's interesting, we might have students who are very low in neuroticism or at least have an exceptionally high tolerance to medical school BS, and I could definitely see them causing issues down the line. But at the same time, I feel like some of the toxicity in medicine comes from people who did have a breakdown, worked through it but never developed the insight to understand the reasons they had become so miserable. I'd wager it's part of the reason we have malignant attendings... they were influenced by the same situations they'd been through and treat frontline staff, med students, and attendings the way they themselves had been treated. It's this line of thought that brought me peace when I worked in a toxic clinic prior to med school.
 
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operaman

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I’m probably one of the potentially problematic people in this regard. I don’t intend to be, but the fact is that my personal experience through medicine has been rather idyllic. I really enjoyed medical school, never experienced anything remotely approaching abuse. As a gen surg intern I also never ran into anything resembling malignancy. Even the hours were rather reasonable and I never even broke work hours rules. I used a tracking app on my phone and never once in 5 years violated work hours. ENT residency was even better and my quality of life was great and my staff were awesome and kind people that I will almost surely call on throughout my career. I’ve just started fellowship and it’s more of the same - phenomenal people, supportive environment - nothing but kindness all around.

So that’s 3 institutions over 10 years now, all surgically focused which should be at least a tinge malignant, but yet I’ve encountered nothing of the sort personally. There were a few rough call nights here and there but nothing insurmountable and not a frequent occurrence. Through it all I’ve gone through plenty of standard life trials and tribulations outside of the hospital as well.

I believe abuse happens in our training system, but I’m having to take it on faith because it’s just never happened to me. I’m also very skeptical because I’ve had classmates and colleagues describe some things as abusive where I was there with them and I wouldn’t have thought so at all. Not sure what to make of that - maybe I’m just blissfully self unaware.

I’ve also heard of some extreme cases that I just can’t figure out. A friend of mine dated a gen surg intern at another program who was up every morning at 3:30 to pre round and often didn’t get home until near midnight. To this day I can’t figure out what the hell he was doing in all that time, especially when signout was at 6a/p. He understandably got very depressed and burned out, but I can’t help but feel the blame must be shared between him for doing whatever the hell he was doing in all those extra hours and his chiefs for not recognizing a struggling intern and intervening to help him through.

There must be some onus on the young adults joining the profession to do their due diligence even though it’s challenging. I’ve had long hours, sleepless nights, missed holidays, and my share of rough days, but literally every physician i shadowed told me this would happen. I hate taking call but I it’s not like I didn’t know it was going to be part of the job; i do what I can to minimize it and see it as the price paid for getting to be a surgeon which is a lot of fun.

I don’t know how much more can be done at the gatekeeper level to ensure students have had adequate exposure to the profession before signing up.
 
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deleted1005514

I believe abuse happens in our training system, but I’m having to take it on faith because it’s just never happened to me. I’m also very skeptical because I’ve had classmates and colleagues describe some things as abusive where I was there with them and I wouldn’t have thought so at all. Not sure what to make of that - maybe I’m just blissfully self unaware.
Same phenomenon as two children growing up in the same household with the same parenting (one not treated any more harsh than the other) and one calling it abusive and/or neglectful and the other feeling like they had the ideal childhood.

I have zero doubt that abuse does exist in the system, but sometimes it’s the perception or life experience of the “abused”. Perhaps they’ve never had a job, never been the low man on the totem pole, never been spoken to harshly or expected to show up to things on time. Or maybe they just claim the victim card or paint everything in a negative light. It is sometimes the system, but it’s not always the system.
 
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ACSurgeon

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Same phenomenon as two children growing up in the same household with the same parenting (one not treated any more harsh than the other) and one calling it abusive and/or neglectful and the other feeling like they had the ideal childhood.

I have zero doubt that abuse does exist in the system, but sometimes it’s the perception or life experience of the “abused”. Perhaps they’ve never had a job, never been the low man on the totem pole, never been spoken to harshly or expected to show up to things on time. Or maybe they just claim the victim card or paint everything in a negative light. It is sometimes the system, but it’s not always the system.

it is the system a lot of the time. We do also have people in medicine who are much more likely to complain these days... I went through general surgery training somewhat oblivious to abuse until it manifested in those junior to me, some of whom had their career seriously hurt. So yes, some of us are oblivious, but the system can suck more than it needs to.
 
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proudofmykids

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Part of the burn out of medicine is... burn out. This by definition happens after recurrent sleepless nights, missing many important life events, recurrent abuse, etc etc. you can shadow a doctor for a full year still think it’s a great gig. Only once you are years into it do you start to feel it. also, many doctors won’t reveal their stress and burnout to their students. I don’t think there’s anyway to simulate it ahead of time.

In theory medicine is diverse enough that there should be something for everyone. In reality, the path to becoming an attending breaks many people before they can find a job that allows the appropriate work/life and motivation/stress balance.

Finally, a lot of the negative aspects in medicine are self inflicted. The speciality you chose, the amount of hours you work, the size house you buy, the expensive car you get, etc etc.

If you read the publications on Burn Out studies, the overwhelming amount of rising administrative, business, insurance battles, and EHR related issues are cited as the root cause of Burn Out and Overall Job Dissatisfaction!

If anything, current students/residents/fellows have it easier than earlier generation MDs. Yet the profession is experiencing unsurpassed and rising amounts of Burn Out (and suicides). It isn’t the hours or lack of sleep which have only improved over the decades. Focus on improving the real issues for your generation by affecting policy both at your place of work, specialty affiliated organizations/academies, and politically to create more regulation on heath insurance reimbursement gouging /wear down, and malpractice/torte reform.
 

ACSurgeon

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If you read the publications on Burn Out studies, the overwhelming amount of rising administrative, business, insurance battles, and EHR related issues are cited as the root cause of Burn Out and Overall Job Dissatisfaction!

If anything, current students/residents/fellows have it easier than earlier generation MDs. Yet the profession is experiencing unsurpassed and rising amounts of Burn Out (and suicides). It isn’t the hours or lack of sleep which have only improved over the decades. Focus on improving the real issues for your generation by affecting policy both at your place of work, specialty affiliated organizations/academies, and politically to create more regulation on heath insurance reimbursement gouging /wear down, and malpractice/torte reform.

The suits are one layer of abuse. Point is, o amount of shadowing will get a pre-med to feel the burnout. Takes time to accumulate.
 
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slowthai

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"Karen prepared a draft email to fourth year medical students with an exciting opportunity for an “unforgettable capstone” experience working in the hospital for free. She decided to send the email tomorrow, as she had worked too hard today."
 
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