Does this qualify as a publication? YES or NO

[woahthisisme]

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Hello 🙂

So I have TWO questions

1. I worked with my dad over the summer (who is a Dr.) and authored a paper w/ him + another Dr.
which is going to be published in a medical journal. The article was originally based off of a research project
I did for my science fair project my senior yr. and then it was expanded with the help of my father and his colleague.

Question 1: Can I still list this paper as a publication or does it not have merit since I authored it with my dad?

Question 2: Does a publication in a medical journal outside of the U.S. qualify as a publication?

Thank you for answering! I truly appreciate it.

 

[aalamruad]

Yes (especially since you started the project by yourself) and Yes

 

[Goro]

Depends upon whether they'll be found in PubMed.

"Non-peer reviewed" might still count, unless in a predatory journal.

The nepotism aspect is a whole 'nuther animal entirely.

 

[Doug Underhill]

I'm worried about potential conflicts of interest here. At my university, you can't be mentored by your parent for research.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Depends upon whether they'll be found in PubMed.

"Non-peer reviewed" might still count, unless in a predatory journal.

The nepotism aspect is a whole 'nuther animal entirely.

I'm kind of curious how would the nepotism part of this look. Beyond it not helping the applicant, would it come across as privilege and being spoon fed possibly have the assumption made that the OP was spoon fed for things beyond this paper not readily apparent in the app otherwise? Forget about it helping an applicant, could it actually hurt them?

 

[Goro]

Whether nepotism or gift authorship, it won't look good.

@LizzyM. @mimelim.....thoughts?

I'm kind of curious how would the nepotism part of this look. Beyond it not helping the applicant, would it come across as privilege and being spoon fed possibly have the assumption made that the OP was spoon fed for things beyond this paper not readily apparent in the app otherwise? Forget about it helping an applicant, could it actually hurt them?

 

[GrapesofRath]

Whether nepotism or gift authorship, it won't look good.

@LizzyM. @mimelim.....thoughts?

Interested to hear their perspective as well. Perhaps @gyngyn also. So you would recommend to the OP leave it off the app as not only it won't help it will hurt an application? I guess the question is what to do if its already in pubmed; just don't list it on your application? Not exactly the most ethical thing to do and something that would look questionable at best if you had other papers you listed and a pub-med search revealed your name in that paper with you dad you didn't list on your app no?

 

[mimelim]

Hello 🙂

So I have TWO questions

1. I worked with my dad over the summer (who is a Dr.) and authored a paper w/ him + another Dr.
which is going to be published in a medical journal. The article was originally based off of a research project
I did for my science fair project my senior yr. and then it was expanded with the help of my father and his colleague.

Question 1: Can I still list this paper as a publication or does it not have merit since I authored it with my dad?

Question 2: Does a publication in a medical journal outside of the U.S. qualify as a publication?

Thank you for answering! I truly appreciate it.

Interested to hear their perspective as well. Perhaps @gyngyn also. So you would recommend to the OP leave it off the app as not only it won't help it will hurt an application? I guess the question is what to do if its already in pubmed; just don't list it on your application?

We assume that if you are listed as an author on a publication that you (and others) followed the journal's rules regarding assignment of authorship. There is nothing wrong with publishing with family members. My brother and I share 4 at last count with 2 more pending revision. The real question is, do you think that it has no merit? If the answer is yes, then it probably has no merit and you should not include it. But, if you just happen to have published with your father because that is who you were working with, why would it not be something to put on applications? It is real world productivity. By the same reasoning that we don't want nepotism, your parents/family shouldn't hold you back just because you did things with them. With regard to medical journals outside of the US, why wouldn't they "qualify as a publication"? Do you not consider the Lancet worthy of our attention? Again, if you are asking this because YOU don't think the journal has merit (ie you sent it to some obscure journal from middle of no where to just get it into print), then there is reason not to include. But, just because it is from outside of the US means next to nothing.

At the end of the day, this is no different than any other person's research experience. If you are the first author on something, it means that you own the project. You should know the ins and outs of the paper and what happened. If you do and can discuss this when asked about it on the interview trail, then it should be included. Did you learn scientific method, hypothesis testing, experimental design, etc etc? If yes, why would it matter if you learned those things from your father vs. someone else? Will more people verify that this was a meaningful experience? Probably, by asking you questions in an interview, but nobody is going to look down on productivity.

 

[GrapesofRath]

A very rare case in which Goro and mimelim have two completely different answers and perspectives to the same question. Both are important; rather this might possibly be a thing that varies significantly from ADCOM to ADCOM in how its perceived. Interested to hear follow up's and more perspectives here.

 

[mimelim]

I'm worried about potential conflicts of interest here. At my university, you can't be mentored by your parent for research.

I don't understand these statements. What are the conflicting interests? The university stops parents from imparting wisdom and sharing knowledge with their children if it concerns research? #1 that is impossible from a practical standpoint, #2 it makes zero sense to do so logically.

 

[mimelim]

A very rare case in which Goro and mimelim have two completely different answers and perspectives to the same question. Both are important; rather this might possibly be a thing that varies significantly from ADCOM to ADCOM.

I don't know if they are completely different answers. I definitely worry about nepotism and gift authorship and would look out for it, just like @Goro, but honestly, if you did the work and know your stuff when asked about it, it will be pretty obvious. People like to think that they can bs about papers, but things typically fall apart under questioning, they just don't know how transparent they are. My point is more that, I find it illogical to penalize someone because of who they work with, whether it be one of our competitors or the applicant's family members. If they do work, they do work. I'm not going to judge because they took a job working with family instead of striking out on their own. I would call it economy of effort. On the other hand, if they are trying to sell me that they are an advanced researcher and are clearly riding the coat-tails of daddy, nobody is going to be happy.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I don't know if they are completely different answers. I definitely worry about nepotism and gift authorship and would look out for it, just like @Goro, but honestly, if you did the work and know your stuff when asked about it, it will be pretty obvious. People like to think that they can bs about papers, but things typically fall apart under questioning, they just don't know how transparent they are. My point is more that, I find it illogical to penalize someone because of who they work with, whether it be one of our competitors or the applicant's family members. If they do work, they do work. I'm not going to judge because they took a job working with family instead of striking out on their own. I would call it economy of effort. On the other hand, if they are trying to sell me that they are an advanced researcher and are clearly riding the coat-tails of daddy, nobody is going to be happy.

Very thoughtful response and rational perspective.

I will say a big obstacle to acceptance is getting to the interview stage. Often 10% or so of applicants only make it to this point. So how do you gauge prior to that because you are weeding over 5K applicants out prior to the interview stage(and many of them don't have glaring flaws) and only 500 or so maybe at the interview part(just rough stats). I think Goro would agree with you that an interview would tell you a ton about just how much the applicant contributed to the paper. But it's the stages prior to this where the working assumptions of what this means can be completely different amongst ADCOMs potentially and where I think there is a big difference in how you and Goro framed your responses and what your first reaction was to seeing a question like that. Nonetheless, this turned out to be a great topic in terms of showing how ADCOMs think and how applicants should approach interviews and authorship in general.

 

[GrapesofRath]

[edit)

 

[Goro]

I think Mimelim and I are just looking at two different "chokepoints", if you will. Mine was a more immediate response, and perhaps tinged by my good old NY skepticism. Mimelim's takes the bigger picture and also at the most important point: at the interview table.

I don't know if they are completely different answers. I definitely worry about nepotism and gift authorship and would look out for it, just like @Goro, but honestly, if you did the work and know your stuff when asked about it, it will be pretty obvious. People like to think that they can bs about papers, but things typically fall apart under questioning, they just don't know how transparent they are. My point is more that, I find it illogical to penalize someone because of who they work with, whether it be one of our competitors or the applicant's family members. If they do work, they do work. I'm not going to judge because they took a job working with family instead of striking out on their own. I would call it economy of effort. On the other hand, if they are trying to sell me that they are an advanced researcher and are clearly riding the coat-tails of daddy, nobody is going to be happy.

 

[Doug Underhill]

I don't understand these statements. What are the conflicting interests? The university stops parents from imparting wisdom and sharing knowledge with their children if it concerns research? #1 that is impossible from a practical standpoint, #2 it makes zero sense to do so logically.

It's a conflict of interest (not making any accusations here, but this is what came up in my Responsible Conduct in Research class) because if a grad student in Dad's lab gets data that contradicts Son's data, Dad cannot reliably be counted upon to be impartial when figuring out which to go with for the paper. Aside from basic conflicting results that happen every day in science, the issue could become more serious if Son does something ethically wrong and Dad tries to cover it up or threaten the grad student to deter them from reporting it.

Parents can absolutely impart wisdom and share knowledge with their children if it concerns research. The children of researchers here often work in a lab that is in the same department, but under a different PI. This reduces the possibility of something like that from occurring.

 

[Pusheen]

Don't take this personally, but as a peer, I wouldn't trust it, just because I know way too many people who get places because mom and dad MD pulled strings. I honestly think it looks like you took the easy way out and worked with dad instead of getting out there and trying to secure a competitive research position like the rest of us had to.

I suppose it's just a question of whether you think the experience was valuable enough to balance out that stigma.

 

[GrapesofRath]

It's a conflict of interest (not making any accusations here, but this is what came up in my Responsible Conduct in Research class) because if a grad student in Dad's lab gets data that contradicts Son's data, Dad cannot reliably be counted upon to be impartial when figuring out which to go with for the paper. Aside from basic conflicting results that happen every day in science, the issue could become more serious if Son does something ethically wrong and Dad tries to cover it up or threaten the grad student to deter them from reporting it.

Parents can absolutely impart wisdom and share knowledge with their children if it concerns research. The children of researchers here often work in a lab that is in the same department, but under a different PI. This reduces the possibility of something like that from occurring.

What you're saying is true. But you also have to look at it from the parent's perspective and the field of research itself. If parents who are PI's play favorites and give their child authorship and priviledges that aren't earned, it gets noticed. And not just from their people in their lab like the lab techs who might not have influence, but from other PI's they collaborate with. When you share a last name, it is easy to note who the child is. I can say this having worked in an old lab where the PI's son conducted work.

Research is a field all about morals, ethics and following proper procedure. Sure dad can pull strings to get their son a job at another place. But it's a different question to ask when it is their OWN work and their OWN reputation on the line. Many highly scientific and educated people aren't going to just risk compromising their ethics and principles to get their son's resume to look better with a paper they didn't earn. That's just not how it often works. You don't get to that position making those kind of compromises in your principles and ethics. I know in my situation one of my old PI's had his son work in his lab for over 2 years before he deemed his work was good enough to put in a paper and warrant authorship(and when he decided it was good enough it really was more than good enough to warrant authorship). None of this is to say that it never happens, but I think people have to realize what research entails and how people at top positions think when being asked to make those kind of compromises you are talking about such as just putting someone in a paper they don't belong, regardless of who it is.

I think what mimelim said earlier really is a key point. When your an ADCOM you have to look at things from a student's perspective as well to really gauge them. If you want to go to into medicine and are interested in research wouldn't it make sense to get some exposure doing research from a parent who can give you such a good perspective? It would honestly be kind of illogical not to explore that opportunity and if it goes well and you end up in a paper, what are you supposed to say, I don't want my work to be recognized because I'm affraid an ADCOM in med school will look down upon it?

 

[mimelim]

It's a conflict of interest (not making any accusations here, but this is what came up in my Responsible Conduct in Research class) because if a grad student in Dad's lab gets data that contradicts Son's data, Dad cannot reliably be counted upon to be impartial when figuring out which to go with for the paper. Aside from basic conflicting results that happen every day in science, the issue could become more serious if Son does something ethically wrong and Dad tries to cover it up or threaten the grad student to deter them from reporting it.

Parents can absolutely impart wisdom and share knowledge with their children if it concerns research. The children of researchers here often work in a lab that is in the same department, but under a different PI. This reduces the possibility of something like that from occurring.

Eh, that is a ton of what-ifs to completely discount someone's productivity. No one is impartial. PIs take sides all the time in labs. I mean the same could be said for family friends or distant relations, etc. If the issue is maybe the son will do something wrong/illegal and then the father may feel compelled to also do something shady, I'm going to err on the side of, let it happen first and deal with it then, rather than assuming that people are going to make it an issue.

Also, given the number of father/son pairings all over academics and medicine, I don't think that people have that big of a hang-up on this.

 

[ChrisMack390]

I say list it and use the description to discuss what you personally did for the project.

 

[Grace184]

Depends upon whether they'll be found in PubMed.

"Non-peer reviewed" might still count, unless in a predatory journal.

The nepotism aspect is a whole 'nuther animal entirely.

Agree with the great Goro. The weight this publication will hold may be zero, though, due to working with your father. No matter your role, what you did, etc, you basically got a "step up" from working with dad. Although not at all the same- you can't shadow or get a LOR from a family member. Even if was your idea and mainly your work, it is almost impossible to deny that without your fathers connections (whom I'm sure has other pubs), it wouldn't have been published. I'm sure it would have made a great poster that YOU could have taken credit for, but with a touch of nepotism the work may be misbranded.

Also, I'm sure you made sure to list in the pub in "conflicts of interests" that 2 authors are related, and one may benefit from the pub, etc

 

[Goro]

When I was in grad school, around the corner from my mentor's lab was the lab of a future Nobel laureate. He had two rooms for his lab. On his side of the corridor, adjacent to his office, were the "Chosen Ones" of his group. And in the lab across the hall, were his peons.

PIs do indeed take sides and play favorites!

Eh, that is a ton of what-ifs to completely discount someone's productivity. No one is impartial. PIs take sides all the time in labs. I mean the same could be said for family friends or distant relations, etc. If the issue is maybe the son will do something wrong/illegal and then the father may feel compelled to also do something shady, I'm going to err on the side of, let it happen first and deal with it then, rather than assuming that people are going to make it an issue.

Also, given the number of father/son pairings all over academics and medicine, I don't think that people have that big of a hang-up on this.

 

[GrapesofRath]

When I was in grad school, around the corner from my mentor's lab was the lab of a future Nobel laureate. He had two rooms for his lab. On his side of the corridor, adjacent to his office, were the "Chosen Ones" of his group. And in the lab across the hall, were his peons.

PIs do indeed take sides and play favorites!

Grants are written all the time in ways you can tell a PI and someone don't have a great relationship. Such is research; the drama and favoritism is a very real thing. It's not just the hard work that weeds people out of research its not being able to manage the other stuff as well. Lot of PhD students( and current PhDs) who spend 70 hours a week in lab don't have the greatest abilities at managing conflict working with others and social awareness. The fact that less than 10% of grants are accepted now days and the competition that brings doesn't help either in creating a such a cutthroat environment where everyone looks for every little edge available even potentially at the harm of others

This is also why if your dad does good research you would be a fool to not at least consider getting involved in it or seeing at some point if you want to get into medicine. The chances of this drama backstabbing and other stuff that hinders at productivity is less working with daddy

 

[Psai]

yes

 

[Doug Underhill]

There's nothing wrong with playing favorites. It just has to be for the right reasons.

 

[maxwell_edison]

I'd say it would count if it's a Pubmed journal, and passes the sniff test. The shady journals are pretty obvious (I get spam trying to get me to submit stuff to them all the time). And then there's those British journals that publish stuff like this 😛

Smith, G. C. S. & Pell, J. P. Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials. BMJ 327, 1459–1461 (2003).


No reason to discount the productivity, regardless of who is on the team.