Doesn't affirmative action enhance stereotypes in admissions?

[efle]

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So what is your point? Base everything on meritocracy? (Would be much more fair imo)
I believe this is done in ca

Yep, UC undergrads are race blind. Still waiting for the lack of diversity to knock Berkeley and UCLA down from positions among the best universities...

 

[raindropx]

Yep, UC undergrads are race blind. Still waiting for the lack of diversity to knock Berkeley and UCLA down from positions among the best universities...

I can't help but like their system though it's unfair for disadvantaged people. Because it means the only thing getting you those seats is hard work.

 

[ranob]

So what is your point? Base everything on meritocracy? (Would be much more fair imo)
I believe this is done in ca

Just trying to dispel misconceptions regarding affirmative action. Many that defend it, actually prefer SES-based action. My personal opinions on this matter:

You know what really annoys me? People who think we should replace affirmative actions with discrimination based on socioeconomic status. What a novel proposition - since standards are already lower for minorities than whites, why not lower them even more so that we can find some dumb, poor minorities to take the place of the rich, well-integrated, well-educated ones? And while we're at it, why not just replace the dumb, poor minorities with slightly-less dumb, poor whites, since we never really liked those minority students to begin with? Why not? After all, we're all poor, white, premeds here, right? (Disclaimer: Did not read the entire thread, only skimmed it. I apologize in advance if I'm misrepresenting anyone).

Affirmative action I get - when you have a large group of people (the 30% "minority" - 13% black, 17% hispanic), they're going to force you to take some of their own if you want to stay in business. Obviously, I may not like it as it puts me at a disadvantage, but I understand that it's necessary to gain the trust of the 30% minority patients. Socioeconomic discrimination though - that boggles the mind. Especially the fact that adcoms appear to be considering it in this thread. They should really know better. (Disclaimer: This argument applies to med school admissions only - I can't see a reason for affirmative action to exist in undergrad admissions. Although to be fair, it doesn't exist at every undergrad institution, just at the vast majority of them.)

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Just trying to dispel misconceptions regarding affirmative action. Many that defend it, actually prefer SES-based action. My personal opinions on this matter:

They are trying to make it fair for those who were not raised with the advantages you mentioned

 

[efle]

They are trying to make it fair for those who were not raised with the advantages you mentioned

Makes sense, as Asians grow up as a minority and face racism and then things are made fair by holding the standardized metrics bar higher than for whites...wait a minute

 

[WingedOx]

So taxes would cover everything? No copays or such? I am also wondering whether quality of health care would decrease

cost and quality of care aren't really well-correlated.

YOU DON'T NEED MULTIPLE ON-DEMAND MOVIE CHANNELS WHEN YOU'RE INPATIENT FOR A STAPH INFECTION!

 

[Glazedonutlove]

~

 

[raindropx]

cost and quality of care aren't really well-correlated.

YOU DON'T NEED MULTIPLE ON-DEMAND MOVIE CHANNELS WHEN YOU'RE INPATIENT FOR A STAPH INFECTION!

Um what do you expect them to watch during the boring wait, the weather channel? Plz.

 

[Goro]

Our URMs do fine here. Do not think for a minute that just because someone had a lower GPA or MCAT means they can't hack med school.

Sounds to me like they will continue to face these same challenges in med school? Also, I'm not talking about URMs as a race. I'm talking about the subset that matriculates to med school. Members of this group do necessarily score lower on standardized exams than their white counterparts.

 

[efle]

Do not think for a minute that just because someone had a lower GPA or MCAT means they can't hack med school.

Fine words which are 0% reflected by the preferences and behaviors of adcoms

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Um what do you expect them to watch during the boring wait, the weather channel? Plz.

M*A*S*H

 

[Goro]

When "driving while yellow" becomes a slang term in our country for police harassment, or banks start redlining Asian neighborhoods, then I'll believe that the slights against Asians = racism against brown-skinned people.

Makes sense, as Asians grow up as a minority and face racism and then things are made fair by holding the standardized metrics bar higher than for whites...wait a minute

 

[raindropx]

Fine words which are 0% reflected by the preferences and behaviors of adcoms

Exceptions for urm only

 

[Goro]

What are you talking about, you who have never entered medical school? I see how these students do!

Fine words which are 0% reflected by the preferences and behaviors of adcoms

And veterans, and people who reinvent themselves, and those with killer ECs and those with compelling stories. No one bitches against those people, yet they also get preference in Admissions policies.

Stop thinking the world revolves around GPA and MCAT.

Exceptions for urm only

 

[raindropx]

When "driving while yellow" becomes a slang term in our country for police harassment, or banks start redlining Asian neighborhoods, then I'll believe that the slights against Asians = racism against brown-skinned people.

Asian includes middle eastern Goro. (At least it did until America kicked them out of their own continent lol). And sometimes other country folks who are mistaken to be middle eastern face extensive racism

 

[raindropx]

What are you talking about, you who have never entered medical school? I see how these students do!

As applicants we see the gpa and MCAT requirements

 

[Goro]

The requirements are stated, and they're much lower than the effective floors. The floors are higher because it's a seller's market, and med schools decide who they want to take from the pool. That's why UCSF can go as low as the mid-high 20s for MCAT score in their matriculants. BTW, it's Asian matriculants who drive the numbers so high!

As applicants we see the gpa and MCAT requirements

 

[ranob]

They are trying to make it fair for those who were not raised with the advantages you mentioned

All the advantages I mentioned were SES-related. Sounds like you actually prefer SES-based action over affirmative action?

Being an Asian, I know how that feels. It's not perfect; I'm just saying that's what the original goal was

Yes, SES-based action supporters support affirmative action because the goals do somewhat overlap. And of course, since SES-based action is not politically feasible, affirmative action is the closest they can get to their ideal.

Our URMs do fine here. Do not think for a minute that just because someone had a lower GPA or MCAT means they can't hack med school.

Premedical test-taking abilities (MCAT scores), results of preclinical standardized tests (USMLE Step 1) and performance on clinical rotations (NBME-OB/GYN score and faculty grade) correlate significantly with USMLE scores. These findings may assist educators in selecting medical students at risk of performing poorly on the USMLE Step-2 examinations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16296216.

When USMLE Step 1 scores are used to screen applicants for a residency interview, a significantly greater proportion of African-American students will be refused an interview.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11739053

 

[raindropx]

What are you talking about, you who have never entered medical school? I see how these students do!



And veterans, and people who reinvent themselves, and those with killer ECs and those with compelling stories. No one bitches against those people, yet they also get preference in Admissions policies.

Stop thinking the world revolves around GPA and MCAT.

Exceptions for urm only

Those are only exceptions. The majority of the applicants have the gpa and mcat required and no one can deny that. And that's why premed think the world revolves around gpa and mcat. It's a product of admissions process

 

[efle]

When "driving while yellow" becomes a slang term in our country for police harassment, or banks start redlining Asian neighborhoods, then I'll believe that the slights against Asians = racism against brown-skinned people.

Greater racism against other minorities does not remove racism against Asians. Even a relatively lesser disadvantage makes it absolutely indefensible that they have identical entrance standards to whites that have advantage, let alone higher standards for the minority.

You don't need to be in medical school to see that adcoms do not treat all MCATs past 26 equally.

You are usually much more sensical than this Goro.

 

[raindropx]

The requirements are stated, and they're much lower than the effective floors. The floors are higher because it's a seller's market, and med schools decide who they want to take from the pool. That's why UCSF can go as low as the mid-high 20s for MCAT score in their matriculants. BTW, it's Asian matriculants who drive the numbers so high!

So Asians deserve discrimination because they drive up the numbers through HARD WORK? Anyone can work hard and drive up the numbers, should we discriminate against them as well?

 

[ranob]

del

 

[Goro]

Nice try, ranob. How about data that's less than a decade old?

SES is fine, although at my school, SES has never been discussed at an Adcom meeting. It probably is a factor is screening at other schools, because American love a come-from-behind, rags to riches story. And it's still not a zero-sum game, either.

All the advantages I mentioned were SES-related. Sounds like you actually prefer SES-based action over affirmative action?


Yes, SES-based action supporters support affirmative action because the goals do somewhat overlap. And of course, since SES-based action is not politically feasible, affirmative action is the closest they can get to their ideal.



Premedical test-taking abilities (MCAT scores), results of preclinical standardized tests (USMLE Step 1) and performance on clinical rotations (NBME-OB/GYN score and faculty grade) correlate significantly with USMLE scores. These findings may assist educators in selecting medical students at risk of performing poorly on the USMLE Step-2 examinations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16296216.

When USMLE Step 1 scores are used to screen applicants for a residency interview, a significantly greater proportion of African-American students will be refused an interview.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11739053

URM are valued as applicants and students, as you yourself have pointed out, that there are better health outcomes riding on their matriculation. URMs are valued precisely because they're URM. Need I mind you yet again that it's not what you want, it's what the med school wants?

Greater racism against other minorities does not remove racism against Asians. Even a relatively lesser disadvantage makes it absolutely indefensible that they have identical entrance standards to whites that have advantage, let alone higher standards for the minority.

You don't need to be in medical school to see that adcoms do not treat all MCATs past 26 equally.

You are usually much more sensical than this Goro.

 

[Goro]

It's not discrimination to say "I think that this kid will add something to our class."

Discrimination is "Asian kid? We don't want their kind"

So Asians deserve discrimination because they drive up the numbers through HARD WORK? Anyone can work hard and drive up the numbers, should we discriminate against them as well?

 

[raindropx]

It's not discrimination to say "I think that this kid will add something to our class."

Discrimination is "Asian kid? We don't want their kind"

Asian kid with the same stats/qualifications as applicant of any other race? We don't want their kind.


What's the difference?

 

[efle]

We agree after all then. I thought you were defending the current treatment of Asians on the basis of AA as a system to compensate for disadvantage as we were discussing right before. AA as a system to best provide for patients I support...though again here as there is no white-preference-against-Asians effect their treatment remains indefensible.

"We will look at apps from whites with 2200+ SATs and from Asians with 2250+ SATs"

This is discrimination, because the logic for this is "we must raise the bar higher for them so they don't get too prevalent"

 

[ranob]

at my school, SES has never been discussed at an Adcom meeting

it's not what you want, it's what the med school wants

Thank goodness for that. Sounds like you're personally receptive to it, but your med school knows better.

American love a come-from-behind, rags to riches story.

 

[Goro]

When 30% of the Class is filled by 5% of the population, the school can afford to skip a few. Said applicants will be able to get into other schools, given the success rates of Asian candidates, the most successful minority group in the history of this country.

No one, and I mean NO ONE, is entitled to a seat in med school. Being a doctor is a privilege, not a right.

And yet again, health outcomes in minority communities ride upon this. Med schools state in their missions that they intend to do something about this.

Asian kid with the same stats/qualifications as applicant of any other race? We don't want their kind.

What's the difference?

 

[raindropx]

When 30% of the Class is filled by 5% of the population, the school can afford to skip a few. Said applicants will be able to get into other schools, given the success rates of Asian candidates, the most successful minority group in the history of this country.

No one, and I mean NO ONE, is entitled to a seat in med school. Being a doctor is a privilege, not a right.

And yet again, health outcomes in minority communities ride upon this. Med schools state in their missions that they intend to do something about this.

So we do agree that there is in fact a discrimination.

 

[Goro]

Selection is not discrimination. Please check your entitlement mentality. Being "in favor of" doesn't not necessarily mean "being against".

So we do agree that there is in fact a discrimination.

 

[raindropx]

When 30% of the Class is filled by 5% of the population, the school can afford to skip a few. Said applicants will be able to get into other schools, given the success rates of Asian candidates, the most successful minority group in the history of this country.

No one, and I mean NO ONE, is entitled to a seat in med school. Being a doctor is a privilege, not a right.

And yet again, health outcomes in minority communities ride upon this. Med schools state in their missions that they intend to do something about this.

Yea since the population as a whole is successful who cares about those few applicants that are skipped over. I wish adcoms would stop punishing intelligent applicants based on race.

 

[efle]

When 30% of the Class is filled by 5% of the population, the school can afford to skip a few. Said applicants will be able to get into other schools, given the success rates of Asian candidates, the most successful minority group in the history of this country.

No one, and I mean NO ONE, is entitled to a seat in med school. Being a doctor is a privilege, not a right.

And yet again, health outcomes in minority communities ride upon this. Med schools state in their missions that they intend to do something about this.

There is zero valid logic to them skipping a few more Asians and taking a few more whites. That does not help patients. That is race based preference seeking Diversity for the sake of Diversity, and that is ****ing stupid. Cal and UCLA are doing just fine. You do not in fact receive a worse educational experience when a couple more people around you in your classes are Asian instead of white. Just give them equal treatment; special consideration for URM and Asian/white together in one blinded category.

 

[raindropx]

Selection is not discrimination. Please check your entitlement mentality. Being "in favor of" doesn't not necessarily mean "being against".

Check the definition of discrimination, which is exactly what adcoms are doing.

 

[Goro]

It's not unjust or prejudicial to pick A over B when there is a medical need for A, with better patient outcomes. And for the average med school, we're talking about maybe 4-5 kids per class of > 100.

My perception is that you're continually obsessing about the Asian applicant with a 3.8 GPA MCAT of > 33, vs the URM of < 3.5, MCAT of < 33. It's not all about GPA or MCAT.

dis·crim·i·na·tion
dəˌskriməˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: discrimination; plural noun: discriminations

1. 1.
   the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
   "victims of racial discrimination"
   synonyms: prejudice, bias, bigotry, intolerance, narrow-mindedness, unfairness, inequity, favoritism, one-sidedness, partisanship;More

 

[raindropx]

It's not unjust or prejudicial to pick A over B when there is a medical need for A, with better patient outcomes. And for the average med school, we're talking about maybe 4-5 kids per class of > 100.

My perception is that you're continually obsessing about the Asian applicant with a 3.8 GPA MCAT of > 33, vs the URM of < 3.5, MCAT of < 33. It's not all about GPA or MCAT.

dis·crim·i·na·tion
dəˌskriməˈnāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: discrimination; plural noun: discriminations

1. 1.
   the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
   "victims of racial discrimination"
   synonyms: prejudice, bias, bigotry, intolerance, narrow-mindedness, unfairness, inequity, favoritism, one-sidedness, partisanship;More

It isn't about gpa and mcat, it's about race. And by "selecting for" a group of people by their RACE, you are effectively selecting against the other groups. LOL I guess selection is now the politically correct term for discrimination. I don't know which applicant you are talking about but I am not talking about who has exceptional Ecs. I'm only talking about race as a factor. I am well aware that Ecs and other parts of application goes into play.

Out of curiosity, have there been studies showing patients prefer their own race for physicians? So white patients prefer white rather than Asian doctors?

 

[efle]

It's not unjust or prejudicial to pick A over B when there is a medical need for A, with better patient outcomes.

But this does not apply for ORMs...

It isn't about gpa and mcat, it's about race. And by "selecting for" a group of people by their RACE, you are effectively selecting against the other groups. I don't know which applixant you are talking about but i am not talking about who has exceptional Ecs. I'm only talking about race as a factor. I am well aware that Ecs and other parts of application goes into factor.

Out of curiosity, have there been studies showing patients prefer their own race for physicians? So white patients prefer white rather than Asian doctors?

There have been many studies showing that URM patients prefer to go to and are more likely to follow advice from same-race physicians. There's not an equivalent effect for whites seeking white physician over Asian to my knowledge.

 

[raindropx]

I guess too many would not be happy if Asians make up much more than 30% of the students, and this is the real reason ORM are handled this way.

 

[Lawpy]

When "driving while yellow" becomes a slang term in our country for police harassment, or banks start redlining Asian neighborhoods, then I'll believe that the slights against Asians = racism against brown-skinned people.

Speaking of Asians, why does the US Census Bureau (which apparently medical schools follow to assess URM/UIM status) classify South Asians and East Asians as Asians? South Asians and East Asians are two entirely different groups of people, with different skin complexions, different cultures, different languages etc.

So, your statement that "I'll believe that the slights against Asians = racism against brown-skinned people" is ambiguous, because Indians themselves are "brown-skinned people". And even then, South Asians suffer similar discrimination for reasons comparable to African Americans in the US because of darker skin tone.

 

[raindropx]

Speaking of Asians, why does the US Census Bureau (which apparently medical schools follow to assess URM/UIM status) classify South Asians and East Asians as Asians? South Asians and East Asians are two entirely different groups of people, with different skin complexions, different cultures, different languages etc.

So, your statement that "I'll believe that the slights against Asians = racism against brown-skinned people" is ambiguous, because Indians themselves are "brown-skinned people". And even then, South Asians suffer similar discrimination for reasons comparable to African Americans in the US because of darker skin tone.

Indians identify as Asians. Lol will they kick Indians out of the continent next?

 

[Lawpy]

Indians identify as Asians. Lol will they kick Indians out of the continent next?

Not geologically!

South Asians were actually considered to be white by the US government.

 

[raindropx]

Not geologically!

I don't give a **** how it was 71 million years ago but Indians ARE Asians. They already face the annoyance of being mistaken for Native Americans due to good old Columbus. now you want to take away their Asian identity too?

And with your logic, shall we create a separate continent for Sri Lanka since it's not landlocked with the rest of Asia?

 

[Goro]

Haven't a clue!

Speaking of Asians, why does the US Census Bureau (which apparently medical schools follow to assess URM/UIM status) classify South Asians and East Asians as Asians? South Asians and East Asians are two entirely different groups of people, with different skin complexions, different cultures, different languages etc.

So, your statement that "I'll believe that the slights against Asians = racism against brown-skinned people" is ambiguous, because Indians themselves are "brown-skinned people". And even then, South Asians suffer similar discrimination for reasons comparable to African Americans in the US because of darker skin tone.

 

[Lawpy]

I don't give a **** how it was 71 million years ago but Indians ARE Asians. They already face the annoyance of being mistaken for Native Americans due to good old Columbus. now you want to take away their Asian identity too?

Why not just have two different Asian categories? It's not that hard. And apparently it's only an American problem, since the issue was well resolved by UK/EU (who do consider Indians to be Asians, but the East Asians to be another category).

And with your logic, shall we create a separate continent for Sri Lanka since it's not landlocked with the rest of Asia?

Sri Lanka is an island affiliated with the Indian subcontinent, even geologically speaking.

Haven't a clue!

It's something the US government (and the medical schools) should keep in mind. They actually considered South Asians and Middle Easterns to be white, and East Asians to be Asians.

 

[raindropx]

Why not just have two different Asian categories? It's not that hard. And apparently it's only an American problem, since the issue was well resolved by UK/EU (who do consider Indians to be Asians, but the East Asians to be another category).



It's something the US government (and the medical schools) should keep in mind. They actually considered South Asians and Middle Easterns to be white, and East Asians to be Asians.

So only East Asians face the ORM discrimination? And that is not a bad idea to make that distinction.

 

[Lawpy]

And that is not a bad idea to make that distinction.

Then why were you throwing your rage at me?

So only East Asians face the ORM discrimination?

Everyone faces discrimination in some way. I just don't like the fact that East Asians and South Asians are grouped in the same category when they are two different races, cultures, societies etc.

 

[raindropx]

Then why were you throwing your rage at me?



Everyone faces discrimination in some way. I just don't like the fact that East Asians and South Asians are grouped in the same category when they are two different races, cultures, societies etc.

I thought you were saying we should make a separate name for Indians/surrounding countries, like it was done for the Middle East. I am fine with classifying it as South Asian.
East Asians and South Asians consist of a LOT more than two different cultures. What you meant to say is they are different in appearance

 

[Lawpy]

I thought you were saying we should make a separate name for Indians/surrounding countries, like it was done for the Middle East. I am fine with classifying it as South Asian.
East Asians and South Asians consist of a LOT more than two different cultures. What you meant to say is they are different in appearance

They are entirely two different groups of people beyond differences in appearance.

 

[raindropx]

They are entirely two different groups of people beyond differences in appearance.

There are more than 2 "entirely different" populations in Asia!! I was trying to say you separated them into only 2 categories based on appearances.

 

[PREDOCSIMP]

trying

This argument is analogous to saying we should get rid of need-based aid for students from low socioeconomic backgrounds because students who don't qualify for it would get jealous and look down on those students and reinforce stereotypes about the poor.
It's always amazing to me the arguments some people use to blame the minorities themselves for racism/stereotypes.

The only problem is, this action is against the law.
The plans you are referring to are approved by legislative houses, affirmative action for medical school has NEVER been approved. I believe it is highly unfair to applicants, and race/ethnicity should not be considered in the admission process.

 

[Lawpy]

There are more than 2 "entirely different" populations in Asia!! I was trying to say you separated them into only 2 categories based on appearances.

As defined by the US Census Bureau which medical schools use for race-based evaluation, the Asian category groups together East Asians and South Asians. Southeast Asians are much more similar (culturally, superficially etc.) to East Asians than to South Asians, so the split should happen between South Asians and East Asians.

Of course there are many different populations involved in Asia to the point that the US Census Bureau separated the Russians/Eastern Europeans and Middle Easterns from Asia. But the separation is incomplete and South Asians and East Asians should be two different and unique categories.