I thought Womb Raider's observations had merit, I'm sad to say.
I thought Womb Raider's observations had merit, I'm sad to say.
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I was with him on some of his points until it devolved into "socialist America", as if somehow any hint of socialist policy is just awful. And secondly, affirmative action is not causing the racial divide in this country, there are much more pressing issues present (see: straight up racism in the recent SC shooting). In an ideal world, AA would not be necessary! But for now, it is.
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People who think that they won't get accepted because an URM will take their seat are just looking for an excuse to justify their own inadequacies. Right, wrong, or indifferent, if you are that worried about your chances because of URM's then you need to work harder to make yourself a more competitive applicant.
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I definitely agree with the sentiment that patients are often more relaxed and better served with doctors who come from a similar background and speak the same language that they do. However, this isn't just confined to Hispanic/African American patients — one of the most significant experiences I had when volunteering in a hospital was being able to talk to an elderly patient who only really knew how to speak Chinese. I was able to help her use the phone (the directions to dial out were only in English) and translate things her nurse had been trying to communicate for a while. I agree with @ofthesaints that although I have come across doctors who can speak Mandarin, their pronunciations are usually off and their vocabularies are often limited (of course, it's very difficult to be literate in Mandarin so it's awesome that they're able to speak in the first place). Clearly when adcoms are looking for someone who they think will serve their communities, they're not looking for the rich African immigrant stereotype that's often thrown around in Affirmative Action arguments.
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Then why are African immigrants over represented in medicine?
Then the same sentiment should apply to all patients i.e. matching them with doctors who share a similar race and ethnicity. Indian patients should be seen by Indian doctors. Caucasian patients should be seen by Caucasian doctors. etc, etc etc
Do you now understand how bogus the "relaxed and more comfortable" patient care theory is?
Not sure if you realize this "unfortunate" fact, but Chinese med school applicants are often considered ORM in many states. Hint: AA is the opposite of being beneficial to ORM's.
Where did you get the " rich African immigrant stereotype that's often thrown around in Affirmative Action arguments?" line? LOL! It's hilarious. Never heard that one before.
If socialism is good, it's odd we have so many immigrants trying their best to come to America in order to escape Third World socialist Utopias.
I would agree that AA is not the direct or only cause of so much racial tension in America these days. There are many factors including media and politicians and professional activists stoking fear and anger for their self serving interests. Unfortunately racially fueled violent incidents seem to be increasing especially in recent years with black on black events being the most common followed by black on white events to a lesser degree.
Based on what I've heard and read, the SC tragedy was committed by a seriously deranged individual. Racism was as an aspect of his overall pathology. SC is a death penalty state - hopefully this sociopath doesn't get life imprisonment because of his mental condition.
It was SCOTUS that judged AA to be "necessary" and the term length of this necessity was determined to end after 25 years ( random number when Utopia could be attained?) Sandra Day O'Connor cast the majority vote. “We expect that 25 years from now, the use of racial preferences will no longer be necessary to further the interest [in student body diversity] approved today.” Cynics claim that the intellectually shallow opinion of Sandra Day O'Connor, an alleged beneficiary of unofficial AA, demonstrates why AA sounds good in theory but fails in the real world.
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Eh, I gotta disagree. I run the referral department for a free clinic and this is a very common thing.
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Quickly, Grab his library card. Don't let him escape!
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1.) Can you name some of these "3rd world socialist utopias"? Are you just trying to be disingenuous in your argument? Immigrants migrate all over the place for many reasons. The USA is better than most countries in the world, but it is by no means perfect. I really don't see what this has to do with the argument at hand. Plus I am not advocating for socialism to spread all over the USA, I am simply saying that having socialist ideals in certain policies is not going to doom us - in fact it is necessary. See: food stamps, medicare, medicaid.
2.) Racial tensions in the media are being reported more frequently because they exist (and have existed for a long time). It is not simply a "self serving interest" to bring attention to these issues. "Professional activists stoking fear and anger" - are you kidding me with this man? Are you going to pretend that it is all fabricated? Black on black crime is not typically classified as "racially motivated". Can you bring me some hard data on your claims here?
3.) Whether or not the SC shooter was deranged or mentally ill is besides the point, as it was a clear racially motivated attack. Hiding behind the "mental illness" card for every lone shooter in the USA is getting really old and is deleterious towards bringing light to the issues of racist violence, gun control, domestic terrorism, etc.
4.) You're saying that Sandra Day O'Connor benefitted from AA (which you should back up with some sources), and you say that she admitted that it should end in a few decades - so someone who clearly benefitted from AA has no problem saying that it will be unnecessary in the future (hopefully). Yet you don't want to give credence to her judgment on approving AA for the time being? What? Furthermore, does her benefitting from AA somehow decrease her legitimacy as a supreme court judge?
Ultimately, this is getting out of hand and is not really in the scope of this thread.
Except its not, at all. You have an adcom that provided you with multiple peer-reviewed studies that support the idea that patient outcomes end up being better when the doctor is more relatable to the patient (in certain contexts and circumstances of course).
And yes, Indian patients who are predominantly in a social setting that is comprised of other Indians and immigrants will likely feel more comfortable with an Indian doctor. Of course Indians who are more assimilated and "Americanized" will not feel this need as much as those who are still fairly new to this culture. Same for Chinese. Language skills undoubtedly help.
In the same way, Hispanic patients can better communicate and trust doctors who are of similar backgrounds. And again, same with black people - if a doctor can relate to black people who live in a certain type of environment (usually impoverished conditions), then he/she will likely be able to treat his/her patients better. If it is a black person that isn't necessarily in that type of environment and is better off financially, academically, and socially, they may not find such a need for a physician of their race specifically. It all depends on context of the patient population.
I am saying all this as an ORM, to whom AA apparently "hurts", but I perfectly understand the reasoning behind it. On these boards AA is attacked mainly because nervous pre-meds feel that their chances are severely lessened by URMs and feel bitter/resentful towards them. There are like 10-20 URMs in every medical school class to begin with...out of like 150-200 total students - there is plenty of room for everyone.
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You are missing the point.
a. It's impractical, inefficient, and unrealistic to match every patient with a doctor sharing a similar skin color and ethnicity "to put them at ease."
b. A free clinic is just that. It represents nothing more.
b. Do you honestly believe a patient with a malignant tumor would put a priority on the surgeon sharing the same skin color? I guarantee the patient would want the most COMPETENT surgeon available. Skin color and ethnicity are important to academics in Ivory Towers, not to patients whose lives are at stake.
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1. You obviously cannot detect sarcasm ( re: my comment about Third World Utopias).
2. No links to peer reviewed studies were posted to me about better outcomes when patients were treated by URM physicians.
3. Medicare is not an entitlement. Medicaid and food stamps are entitlements.
4. Black victims of black on black violence would argue - if they could, if they were still alive - that they were targeted because their skin color.
Spend a weekend in South Chicago and get back to me about your theory that the black victims were not raped, robbed, killed due to race based hatred.
5. FBI crime report statistics are a good source for you to research violent crimes by race. Let your fingers do The Google.
6. I didn't say the SC mass murderer should be absolved of his crimes due to his mental derangement. Au contraire, I pointedly said he deserves to get the death penalty.
But you cannot deny the fact that he is obviously mentally ill - imo he fits the profile of a sociopath. Disturbed, intellectually challenged, unstable, unsuccessful, erratic, unpredictable, lethal act of rage with no real concern about consequences ( he wanted to start a Race War and kill himself- say what?). He had to repeat grade 9. He didn't finish high school. He lived in a car for months on end. He was arrested 2x just this past year.
Paradoxically did you know that the majority of his friends in high school were African American? Did you know that majority of his Facebook "friends" were African American? Did you know that Senator Lindsey Graham's niece attended the same public high school as Roff and described him as clearly disturbed, but nothing was/could be done to put this guy in a mental institution? The ACLU says crazies have individual rights to live in the general population.
You call this racism. I call this a tragic failure of Common Sense to Protect the Greater Good. This kid was a walking talking time bomb. And no one could do anything until he committed a crime - i.e. snuffing the lives of 9 innocent, defenseless people in their place of worship.
7. Sandra Day O'Connor - look up her background prior to Reagan's surprise selection - incomparable qualifications for an appointment to SCOTUS - really? you think?
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My thoughts (the last 2 are vaguely related):
1. No race should be nearly or entirely excluded from the medical profession.
2. International students from countries that do NOT value women and gay people, SHOULD ideally have a quality diversity lesson during their orientation, and ideally, they should be screened for tolerance before being accepted.
3. More diversity (IN ADDITION TO RACE) is needed. We need physicians from different walks of life, different social groups, gay physicians, transgender physicians, liberal physicians, physicians with hair that is not black, brown, blond, or gray, etc. Diversity is lacking and is not limited to race.
1. No race should be nearly or entirely excluded from the medical profession.
2. International students from countries that do NOT value women and gay people, SHOULD ideally have a quality diversity lesson during their orientation, and ideally, they should be screened for tolerance before being accepted.
3. More diversity (IN ADDITION TO RACE) is needed. We need physicians from different walks of life, different social groups, gay physicians, transgender physicians, liberal physicians, physicians with hair that is not black, brown, blond, or gray, etc. Diversity is lacking and is not limited to race.
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1.) It was rather hard to detect, and pretty poorly done.
2.) On the previous page, maybe not directed to you but they are there. Here is a useful compilation of evidence: http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/reports/diversityreviewevidence.pdf
Notice that the positive effects are for primary care physicians and mental health specialists. Of course you'll want the best surgeon, but that is often a sub-specialty and not nearly as widely needed.
3.) I'd rather not argue this as it is getting off topic, so agree to disagree.
4.) There is a difference between black on black gang violence and white on black racial attacks. If you have specific cases for me to see then link the source. This is also besides the point of the main topic.
5.) You made the claim, provide the source.
6.) He can be mentally ill and still be racially motivated. If you want to say that racism = mental illness then you are traveling on a slippery slope. Yes if everyone got the proper help there would be much less crime. If this country had less racist tones there would be much less racism as well.
7.) I really don't know what you're trying to say here; provide some source.
Just to let you know, its not my job to look it up if you are making these claims. Back up your arguments.
1. the link you gave provides no "evidence" of anything. I am surprised you consider a selective review of articles is scientifically relevant. Even the authors themselves reveal problems with their review: "There were several limitations to our review. Our search strategies may not have captured all relevant studies. We took several measures to ensure a comprehensive search, including reviewing reference lists and Web sites and consulting with experts. It is possible, though, that important studies were missed. We only searched for publicly available studies. Some studies relevant to our review may have been conducted by private institutions that did not disseminate their findings to the general public. It is also possible that our review was affected by publication bias, as some authors may have selectively chosen not to publish results either supporting or refuting the hypotheses we addressed...while our review suggested a potential benefit from increasing language concordance in patient- practitioner encounters, it did not establish whether achieving this benefit is best accomplished by training more minority health professionals or by training existing and future health professionals to speak non-English languages. " blah, blah, blah
They had 4 hypotheses and showed minimal support for 2. Face plant, no?
2.FBI Crime reports and DOJ statistics are good resources. You challenged my claim. The onus is on you to prove I'm wrong.
3. I already wasted way too much time on this unrewarding thread. Have a nice weekend.
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Community can be defined however a medical school chooses to do so. A school can say it is training physicians to serve the people of a specific state, a portion of a state, a specific underserved population such as people of color or people living in rural areas, or even all of the USA. If there is a demand for physicians with specific language skills in specific communities, it is likely that job offers to serve in those communities are going to be sweet and may entice physicians to serve where they are most needed.
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Cmon man. Have you taken a sociology class? You can't seriously sit here and say that there isn't class division among races. You also can't say that acknowledgement of such is racist. Besides, it's been stated already that URM isn't a reflection of SES but rather filling the need for physicians who are under represented in medicine.
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Right, wrong, or indifferent, it still exists. And why does the fact that the clinic is free somehow negate that? You are using extreme examples to make your point. This is mostly about PCPs and other specialties which require direct patient contact.
@Goro's first post ITT would be a good start. The idea is that people tend to have better health outcomes if their provider is of a similar background (race, ethnicity, SES, gender). Since physicians tend to be whites or Asians who come from well off families, we should increase the proportion of med students who are from disadvantaged backgrounds. Over time this will result in a physician demographic that more closely resembles the nation's demographics. Therefore, more people who are poor or minorities have a better chance of access to a physician who relates better to them. The data in Goro's post suggests this will improve their health outcomes (which is the point of med school admissions).
It's not at all surprising that this sentiment is common among the typically well off pre-med population.
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I just have to say this because it drives me up the damn wall. "Black on black crime" is the dumbest phrase ever invented. Seriously, this is not a thing. The vast majority of crime is intraracial because of proximity, yet we never here about "white on white crime" or anything else. It's just a deceptive turn of phrase that exaggerates in-fighting in the black community
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what do you mean by your statement? I think we should not categorize by race because that is really presumptuous. So just because a kid who is an asian or white makes it to a top uni, it's because they were effing full of resource? People from poor backgrounds are unresourceful. A urm coming from a rich family is full of resource too. Does that mean that admissions standards go down for that person despite their socioeconomic stance? I think adcoms look at who you are, what your skill set is because of who you are, and where you come from. Blaming asians and whites to make a majority of the class isn't fair to these folks; that's just taking the coversation in the wrong way. Plus if you think about it, Stanford is surrounded by a community with 50% making up hispanics which is assumed to be urm nationwide but because of the community make-up in cali, I don't think they think of them as urms anymore as much as they did in the past. So the definition of a urm can change based off of community. This assumption came from an adcom there.
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Doesn't URM also include rural families which can be a very wealthy population that choose the scenic country without large health care centers vs. big city and Level 1 trauma centers + acclaimed cancer centers + etc.
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You point at me and my post has nothing to do with Asians, Blacks, Hispanics or any other race ...
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wow, an undergraduate thinks affirmative action and race-conscious admissions is "the real racism", what a fresh and fascinating take on this complex issue. can't wait to read the next newsletter article from this brilliant mind, please do keep us updated
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Don't you find that most of the whiners about Affirmative Action or URM or pick-your-flavor are the B-students who feel they are smarter than the AA or URM or PYF?
I don't find the students who are As and Bs with solid MCAT scores whining. If they do it's, "Why didn't Harvard give me an II and Yale gave me an accept" 🙂
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the would be white shooter.
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After seeing tons of these threads, my own feeling is that the most complaints against URM-friendly admissions policies are from hyperacheiving students who feel that just because they have a 3.8/40 MCAT, that they are entitled to a seat in medical school. They do have an entitlement attitude and can't grasp the concept that no one is entitled to a career in Medicine.
They also don't understand that the road traveled is just as important as any GPA. Indeed, this is one of those things that helps Adcoms distinguish between all the academic clones.
They also don't understand that the road traveled is just as important as any GPA. Indeed, this is one of those things that helps Adcoms distinguish between all the academic clones.
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You might want to look at Table 8. Of course there are wealthy minority applicants and poor white applicants, but statistically, those people tend to be the outliers.
https://www.aamc.org/download/328322/data/statedebtreport.pdf
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Another application cycle and another AA/URM thread.
Summer's back boys and girls.
Summer's back boys and girls.
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You're probably that says "I'm not racist, I have black friends"
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You are so narrow minded that you can't even acknowledge the fact this has nothing to do with SES. But by saying that social equality exists because you know some rich black people, does in fact, make you racist.
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1.) If you don't like my link, then look at the multiple that Goro posted on the last page. Don't just cover your ears and go "lalalalala"
2.) Lol WHAT? This pretty much confirms you're not worth arguing with.
3.) Thank goodness, bye now.
I think you're right there. You usually see pre-meds vehemently go against AA because their futures are seemingly so affected by something like it. However they also come up with the worst arguments. There are often valid criticisms to AA, but I never really hear them coming from a pre-med - to them the ulterior agenda is mainly to get into medical school in the easiest way possible and so anything that seems to get in the way must be bad.
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SES is already part of the application. The entire first section of demographics addresses SES. Adcoms can and do use it. You can't tell me that an adcom in California would assume the background of a Hmong immigrant in Detroit had all the advantages of a third generation Chinese kid from San Jose that was educated at a top high school. You are not giving the schools and the adcoms enough credit. LizzyM and Goro may correct me if I am wrong in my assumption.
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Honestly I really love threads like this because it confirms for me that these policies are still needed. Whether you are wrong or right in your argument, the fact alone that THIS SUBJECT is what concerns you about our health care system is enough for me to NOT want you as my physician. As a black woman I simply would not feel comfortable receiving medical treatment from a doctor with these ideologies. I would be concerned that you would see me as somehow beneath you and that this could ultimately affect my treatment (regardless of my SES). There are several articles and books on these subjects if you're really interested.
What you haven't yet grasped is that the reasoning for discrimination in med school admissions is not to correct past wrongs. It is to produce physicians who can treat the population. Asians are over-represented in medicine. Blacks and Latinos are underrepresented.
Furthermore, I believe SES is factored in by adcoms regardless of the applicant's race.
Your points are simply not relevant.
?
It's not just that URM populations tend to have better outcomes with a URM physician, it's also that the URM doc is more likely to work with URM populations. There's more evidence for the latter, iirc.
SES is a part of AMCAS. You do not know that a poor white student doesn't benefit as much as the rich african.
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Your characterization of me as a "proud black woman" is a racial stereotype but you also missed my point. I don't care about my doctor's race! I care about my doctor's perception, ideologies, and cultural sensitivity. My favorite doctor is a white OB-GYN. She treats me with dignity, takes my questions and concerns seriously and goes out of her way to make sure I know what my options are. She doesn't dismiss me or make me feel like less of a person. Thank you again. I like it when people are open and honest about how they really feel. I do not want a physician that sees a black woman share an opinion and characterizes her automatically as "proud". I want someone with more cultural sensitivity and social aptitude.
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Why would u refer to a peer on here as a proud black women? Especially in the context of this thread.
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I mean on the plus side he's basically proving your point haha.
Cultural humility and sensitivity are important
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This is a pre-medical forum for admission to medical school. Obviously there are bigger issues in medicine as a whole, but this is a legitimate topic to bring up given the purpose of the forum.
Discrimination of any kind should not be accepted in our society, including the reverse-discrimination seen in affirmative action. Even one seat taken from someone of any color solely due to race preference is a tragedy in my opinion.
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@whackamole21, back pedal much?
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I did not claim that you necessarily believe I am inferior. But I would worry that someone with your ideologies might be and that is not worth the risk. Do you understand that distinction? Thanks for calling me proud and delusional all in one go.
@noleknight16 I never said that this is not a legitimate topic. I just shared my feelings on the issue. We can agree to disagree. A lot of my discomfort with anti-minority ideology stems from disregard for human life and a violent history. I don't want to put my health in the hands of someone that may not give me the best treatment possible because of their hidden biases. I can never know for sure but that's why I enjoy conversations like this. Unfortunately we are anonymous right now but I like to know who my allies are.
As far as reverse-discrimination goes, "you'll be fine." No one is going to stop you from going to medical school or getting a job because you are white or Asian. I think medical schools really love ORMs. 🙂
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Earlier:
My point is your premise is off. This thread is here because it's a pre-medical admission topic. It's not here because people think it's "THE SUBJECT" to be concerned with with the healthcare system. You drew a completely wrong conclusion.
You can have that view, but then you're saying you're okay with discrimination based solely upon race. I think a pre-med of any race "will be fine" if they want to become a doctor and put in the necessary effort.
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I think I've got this figured out.
Race is a major criterion because med schools believe that URM physicians will benefit URMs with regard to healthcare and so med schools can put on some facade of diversity.
SES is not a major criterion because med schools won't want to give financial aid to too many less well-off students, and they can't afford to do that.
Welp, no need to whine about the system, as a Chinese male, I just need to accept it and do the best I can with the hand I'm dealt.
Race is a major criterion because med schools believe that URM physicians will benefit URMs with regard to healthcare and so med schools can put on some facade of diversity.
SES is not a major criterion because med schools won't want to give financial aid to too many less well-off students, and they can't afford to do that.
Welp, no need to whine about the system, as a Chinese male, I just need to accept it and do the best I can with the hand I'm dealt.
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????
A) People started talking about "black on black" crime because of the media's obsession with reporting the rare case of white vs. black crime, while neglecting to mention the hundreds of similar cases that are black vs. black (or really, even black vs. white) as if those lives weren't worth mentioning. It's all about the $$$ and is a disgrace.
B) Exaggerates?????? Blacks make up ~13% of the population and commit more than half of all murders last time I checked. No exaggeration here.
--------------------
You guys really need to go read that other thread I linked (here it is again: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...chools-possibly-controversial-thread.1123877/) almost everything being discussed in this thread was mentioned over there. But, since I know 99% of you won't go read it, I'll ask a few questions:
1. When should we stop providing advantages for people with certain skin colors? Seriously, I want to hear a stopping point that is capable of being measured (e.g. don't tell me "when everyone treats everyone equally!!!!1"). Anyone want to give this one a shot?
2. It's clear that some patients prefer to go to doctors with the same skin color, and, according to the tones of these threads, almost everyone (excluding myself and a few other brave souls) seem to not have a problem thinking the patient has a right to choose their doctor based on their skin color. Why stop at physicians? Why don't we let kids pick school teachers and professors that have the same skin color as them? I'm sure you could dig up evidence somewhere that teachers of similar cultures/backgrounds are more effective when teaching. When I order a food delivery from Papa Johns, why can't I request a white/black/mexican/indian/asian delivery man, so that I feel more comfortable? Can I ask for a (insert race here) waiter/waitress when ordering food at the restaurant? Heck, let's just go ahead and make restaurants and schools that employee only one race so that families can pick and choose where their kids go to school and feel the most comfortable and woved!
You guys picking up on the irony of your position yet?
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Honestly, I don't support this pseudo-AA system in higher education, but I understand the logic behind it. All I ask is that those of you who support it admit that it's discrimination, albeit justified (in your mind) discrimination. There is no way avoiding this; if you deny it's discriminating based on skin color, you're delusional. I just want you to admit that you're consciously supporting a system that provides advantages for individuals based on skin color in the year 2015. The problem is, 99% of you are too pathetic to even do that. Keep living in your fantasy.
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@Womb Raider several of us ITT, including myself, agreed that it is discrimination. Yes to the bold as well.
I'll get to that thread and your questions tomorrow.
I'll get to that thread and your questions tomorrow.
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Good, I suggest copying the bolded part of my text and include it in your signature, thanks.
P.S. Better yet, make a bumper sticker for your car.
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