Dog behavior/training question

[No Imagination]

So... after 5 years of waiting, and promising myself that "this summer it's happening", I am FINALLY getting the dog I've wanted (GSD).

I haven’t had a dog in >10 years (due mostly to time/work constraint), and truth be told, I am a bit out of the loop in terms of training.

I was wondering if anyone could recommend a GOOD book in terms of training.

Obviously I could Google it, but there are so many different viewpoints and theories out there, I thought I would tap some of the behaviorists here first (as this isn't the kind of thing I want to screw up).

The tricky part is what I want to do with the dog.

I'd like to try my hand at some of the Schutzhund activities. I certainly don't have the time to really do it (nor the desire, as I think it’s better suited for working dogs than companions), but I'd like to get my feet wet and have fun with it.

Basically, off Lease, obedience, tracking, and maybe even a little protection (something fun for both of us).

Finally, I am also interested in learning more about dog behavior - as I understand that most aspects of the "master/submissive" theories that I grew up hearing have been either debunked or are no longer recommended.

My hope is through a better understanding of behavior, as well as the training of Schutzhund/similar - I can train a good companion dog that I can trust and have fun with.

P.S. I've heard that a top reason for relinquishment is behavior problems, some firsthand knowledge could only make me a better vet.

So, any suggestions?

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[almostglue]

On our Behavior Service, we highly recommend the book "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor. We recommend it to almost all of our clients. I haven't read it myself, but it's on my list of things to do. Definitely don't think it will help with the Schutzhund type things, but I it's reported to be a very good book on the concept of dog behavior and training.

I'm curious about the Schutzhund... I would like to do this with my future 'dream' dog, but I'm not sure if it's something that can be done if you don't have a lot of time to dedicate to it. (I don't want to end up with a dog that knows just enough to be dangerous and me not be able to put the time in to keep things safe?) I'd love to hear from anyone who currently does Schutzhund work how involved one really has to be to do this with their dog.

 

[No Imagination]

but I'm not sure if it's something that can be done if you don't have a lot of time to dedicate to it. (I don't want to end up with a dog that knows just enough to be dangerous and me not be able to put the time in to keep things safe?)

Certainly wouldn't try to do the sport and def. not try to get certified, but from the youtube video's I've watched, they (the dogs) are incredibly responsive (which I like)

anyone who currently does Schutzhund work how involved one really has to be to do this with their dog.

As I understand it right now...

You can easily do 2/3 aspects of it without fear (obedience and tracking). However, like you I am VERY hesitant to do the protection bit until I KNOW I can do it right.

Also, I heard from one behaviorist (DVM) that Schutzhund produces (I cant remember her terminology but) a "Cold/Hard dog" - Not 100% sure what she meant, but I think it is along the lines of a working dog vs. companion.

 

[NStarz]

Positive reinforcement, all the way! You are right in saying that dominance theory is no longer widely accepted by most good behaviorists and dog trainers.

I second Karen Pryor's book! It's excellent!

If you never practiced positive reinforcement training, it may be a good idea to enlist the help of a qualified trainer (there are certification programs out there). Unlike with force/shock/choke/startle methods, there's little damage you can do with positive reinforcement, so go ahead and let loose!

Remember that timing is key as well as consistency (your dog can't understand what you want if you keep changing your mind ), and start socialization at a young age (if you're getting a puppy). That's especially more in learning things like bite inhibition. Socialization may be even more important than 'sit' and the usual training that people expect. So even if you're not using a 'puppy kindergarten' class of sorts, make sure you socialize your dog with other dogs (so they teach him/her things that would be a pain in the butt for you to teach)!

Good luck! And enjoy!

 

[JerseyisCutest]

Ok so I never post anymore but couldn't keep my mouth shut about this..

a "cold/hard" dog? LOL what a thing to say by someone who obviously has no idea what he/she's talking about. There are so many myths about this sport, it drives me crazy. It doesn't make mean or aggressive dogs either. people need to realize that most of the protection part of this sport is done in prey drive.....some dogs move into defense drive, some still look at it like it's a game. The object isn't to "bite a person" it's to bite a sleeve. It's not like training police dogs, which is a whole 'nother ball game. I have wanted to do Schutzhund for the past 5 yrs and JUST NOW (well 2 mths ago) got a really good working line GSD 7 mth old puppy. Both parents are titled and German imports, father was a regional champ a couple of years ago. (Ok that's just my little brag, anyway... ) My breeder's dogs are ALL house dogs and they have at least 6 that I know of. I've seen pictures of these dogs with kids........playing with other dogs........you name it, nothing could be further from the truth than cold. You don't really make a "hard" dog......they either are or they are soft, or somewhere in between. There's nothing wrong with having a "hard" dog, all that means is they take corrections extremely well and bounce right back from them without a moment's hesitation. It's actually desired in SchH and you won't get very far with a really soft dog. My puppy is going on 9 mths and is in no way "cold" or do I ever see her becoming that way. For a lot of the top breeders, their dogs are their companions first and are treated as such. The only way you would end up with an "unsafe" dog would be if your dog was that way to begin with (maybe kind of sharp....or suspicious, etc.) or possibly around small children if they were running around and you have a high prey drive dog (I took mine to our schools' Open House and it was all I could do to keep her from chasing down/barking at the kids around but if they approached her calmly she let them pet her). My puppy is and always will be my companion and friend FIRST, it doesn't have to be either working dog or companion exclusively. She lives in my house with my 3 other dogs of different sizes and ages, and she doesn't live 9/10 of her life in her crate or in a kennel (which some people do to get their dog's drive & energy level really up sometimes).

Electrophile has been involved in Schutzhund for years and she can tell you more than me, but I would HIGHLY recommend the Michael Ellis training videos, even for just companion dogs although geared towards the competition dog. He is AMAZING. I thought I knew a lot about training obedience until i watched his videos. It's important for beginners to find a good club to train with too, as you can't (and don't want to) do the protection work on your own.......you need an experienced helper, plain and simple.

just FYI I am finishing up second year of vet school and I have plenty of time to devote to training my pup, and I'll mention my grades aren't too bad either (GPA is like a 3.6 something). However you need to realize that you'll want a really high prey drive dog for this work and you need to be prepared to take on all the work that comes with that , meaning a lot of people in this sport allow their pups to be kind of "naughty" i.e. let them act crazy and jump up, etc. etc. because otherwise you risk bumping down their drive. My puppy for the first month I had her would chase me down and tug on my clothing with a death grip and I didn't dare punish her....I just ignored it and would calmly take her mouth off my clothing and re-direct, never ever punished her for it.

I would seriously at least order "the power of training dogs with food" by Michael Ellis if you are short on cash, it's AMAZING. If you would like any more info or anything else I've picked up along the way or would like my breeder's youtube account name so you can see them working some of their awesome dogs of different ages, PM me as I don't post on here really anymore.

 

[CookieBear]

Patrica McConnell has some good stuff, including a Puppy Primer book.

Sophia Yin has some great videos on her website, in addition to books.

Karen Pryor is great. If/when I have the time, I'd love to read her stuff too.

Karen Overall is a behaviorist I have heard many great things about over the years. I'm not sure if she's got any books, or if they are geared for problems vs. general training, but she is well-respected.

Don't overlook list-serv or user-group type message boards. Once you filter past the obvious 'not so good stuff' - there's alot of people out there with some good experiences and ideas that you can draw from. I'm on a breed-specific rescue Yahoo group and have gotten many good recommendations from there.

 

[No Imagination]

Thanks everyone for the posts and information - Gonna have a great summer reading list and fun absorbing all this!

Jersey, PM sent. I did just want to say for clarification, that "Cold/Hard" where my interpretations of what the behaviorist said (I could not remember her exact term) - but that was the gist. I've been reading about the differences between prey drive vs. defensiveness - All the more reason to get reading. Oh well, only 4 more finals to go!

 

[JerseyisCutest]

Forgot to post this before, VERY entertaining!
just goes to show you don't need some big bad dog to do well in SchH protection.....in fact, I've been told this dog scored a perfect 100 but he couldn't earn a SchH 1 title due to not being able to complete the obedience routine up to regulation (dumbbell was too big, etc.).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTN5kTkdvME

Claudia Romard is an exceptional resource too btw.

 

[Chill1818]

Yea behavior and training!!!! Definitely one of my all time favorite subects.

I personally feel that if you really want a GSD and are interested in doing Schutzhund or Mondioring training, I HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend, as did one of the other posters, reading and watching anything Michael Ellis (http://michaelellisschool.com/, http://www.loupsdusoleil.com/). He is the best trainer I've seen work dogs and is a highly respected trainer. I have a friend who purchased one of his dogs and is also apprenticing with him right now and she is just loving it. You can find a lot of his videos as well as general info at www.leerburg.com, a rather addictive website. They have articles, videos and tons of equipment available.

Other individuals I've enjoyed reading include Dr. Ian Dunbar (www.dogstardaily.com), Karen Pryor (www.clickertraining.com) and Dr. Nicholas Dodman.

Goodluck and have fun!!!

 

[JerseyisCutest]

Omg I am so insanely jealous of your friend! I've already said my next SchH dog will be a malinois and hopefully one of ME's! If I wasn't in vet school, I would so be at his school in CA right now too.........he really is awesome.

 

[Chapelle]

I personally feel that if you really want a GSD and are interested in doing Schutzhund or Mondioring training, I HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend, as did one of the other posters, reading and watching anything Michael Ellis

"15 years ago when I was breeding some very hard puppies I wrote an article titled “Teaching Your Puppy the Meaning of the Word NO.” In it I recommended grabbing the pup (when it was biting you or a family member) by the nape of the neck and shaking until it squealed like a pig. Well that advice was wrong."

 

[No Imagination]

"15 years ago when I was breeding some very hard puppies I wrote an article titled "Teaching Your Puppy the Meaning of the Word NO." In it I recommended grabbing the pup (when it was biting you or a family member) by the nape of the neck and shaking until it squealed like a pig. Well that advice was wrong."

Might want to attribute a source, because first 2-3 times I read this, I thought this was your quote

BTW, I Goggled the quote and found the source... Ouch. I don't know much about training (yet), but it seems like information like this, where some really good advice is mixed in with some really bad advice, could be very detrimental to someone trying to learn (at least I think - been hearing very conflicting reports on the whole pack/domance mentality when dealing with puppies). However perhaps that level of 'hard' training is still needed in some aspects of sport (BTW, that was by someone named Ed Frawley, not Michael Ellis)

I've pretty much been sold on the whole positive reenforcement only, but I still think that somewhere in the training there has to be an understanding of "NO" to correct a bad behavior.

On a personal note, my fiancé is NOT comfortable around big dogs - she is deathly afraid it will bite a child... this is my one any only chance to 'get it right' with a GSD, otherwise it will be my last

Then again, she used to hate cats, and was vehemently against an indoor cat. I gave her mine to 'hold' for a week while I was away, and it has not been back to my house... her damn face book page has picture after picture of the cat doing 'cute things' and she has since gotten another "Because 'ulna' (was learning thoracic limb anatomy at the time, seemed fitting when I adopted it) was getting lonely"...

 

[Ben and Me]

Hey No Imagination -

You doing okay? Sounds like there were some pretty serious tornados yesterday pretty close to Starkville!

 

[No Imagination]

Hey No Imagination -

You doing okay? Sounds like there were some pretty serious tornados yesterday pretty close to Starkville!

Yeah, just some sirens which got in the way of my phys/neuro studying - Although apparently some nearby cities did get hit (Due to this week being finals week, I have not turned on my TV/News, although somehow SDN is ok... hmm).

They take these tornado things so seriously down here... maybe its because I was not raised around them, but my idea is... what happens happens. I must have gotten 3 phone calls from concerned locals who wanted to make sure I knew what to do if the sirens came on... My response "Long as my DSL stays up, i'm good, thanks for calling"

Anyway, thanks for asking - but I dont think one touched down anywhere in starkville.

 

[Ben and Me]

Yeah, just some sirens which got in the way of my phys/neuro studying - Although apparently some nearby cities did get hit (Due to this week being finals week, I have not turned on my TV/News, although somehow SDN is ok... hmm).

They take these tornado things so seriously down here... maybe its because I was not raised around them, but my idea is... what happens happens. I must have gotten 3 phone calls from concerned locals who wanted to make sure I knew what to do if the sirens came on... My response "Long as my DSL stays up, i'm good, thanks for calling"

Anyway, thanks for asking - but I dont think one touched down anywhere in starkville.

Here is the article in the NY Times if you're interested....At least 10 people died. Just google mapped - you're right, it is a lot further away than I thought...from the zoomed out map, it looked right next door!

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/04/25/us/AP-Severe-Weather.html?hp

 

[Angelus9]

Also, I heard from one behaviorist (DVM) that Schutzhund produces (I cant remember her terminology but) a "Cold/Hard dog" - Not 100% sure what she meant, but I think it is along the lines of a working dog vs. companion.

Nonsense.

I train in Schutzhund and Nonsense, say I (and my little dog, too).

Cold/Hard dog? Check this out:

http://www.germanshepherddog.com/samantha/album/

More if you have time: http://www.youtube.com/user/GlynClayton#p/a/u/0/Sn3VghnNEpc

http://www.youtube.com/user/GlynClayton#p/a/u/1/RTZmIFdgU2M

 

[Angelus9]

You can easily do 2/3 aspects of it without fear (obedience and tracking). However, like you I am VERY hesitant to do the protection bit until I KNOW I can do it right.

People think protection work is all about the biting. It's all about Obedience, control, and responsiveness. If you watch Schutzhund routines (there are three levels: SchH I, II, and III), notice the control the dog is under. It simply MUST be obedient to the handler at all times.

Yes, a good dog will hit like a freight train, and it will also let go instantly upon command. SchH is a sport, it is not personal protection training.

 

[No Imagination]

Wow... in http://www.youtube.com/user/GlynClay.../0/Sn3VghnNEpc I didnt even realize she was a kid until halfway through - thought it was just a really big GSD. Pretty cool.

 

[Angelus9]

She's 7 years old, the youngest competitor ever at a national event.

 

[Chapelle]

BTW, I Goggled the quote and found the source... perhaps that level of 'hard' training is still needed in some aspects of sport (BTW, that was by someone named Ed Frawley, not Michael Ellis)

Oh, you're right, I got confused thinking that whole website was by Michael Ellis! That said, if that kind of training is "needed for the sport" I don't think that "sport" should be practiced. The whole point of sport with animals IMO is to enrich the lives of both the human and animal, build your relationship, and let you both have lots of fun...not to satisfy a person's perverse hunger for power.

 

[No Imagination]

Oh, you're right, I got confused thinking that whole website was by Michael Ellis! That said, if that kind of training is "needed for the sport" I don't think that "sport" should be practiced. The whole point of sport with animals IMO is to ...not to satisfy a person's perverse hunger for power.

Well, without getting into a Pro vs. Nay Schutzhund debate, the initial point of the 'sport' was not really to 'enrich the lives of both the human and animal, build your relationship, and let you both have lots of fun' but to maintain breed standards and stock for working, specifically herding and police (and initially for GSD).

Apparently, as it is a very old 'sport', a lot of the old (and I mean OLD) practices are still employed in some variation (practices that you and I wouldn't like) by some people (old dogs and all).

Anyway, like I said, I know about 2 weeks of goggle and wiki worth of the sport, so certainly shouldn't be taking a position, but its evolved a lot from what it was, and now seems to be more like what you said 'enrich the lives of both the human and animal, build your relationship, and let you both have lots of fun'

 

[sumstorm]

I would be careful with schtzhund training because it is easy to stumble onto bad trainers. I also wouldn't do bite work unless you want to carry extra liability. My GSD is trained in bite work for criminal search, along with wilderness SAR. If you want a challenge, try SAR. Just a suggestion!

Anyways, some great names out there. I would also suggest 'Control Unleashed' for exercises in control. 'Culture Clash' for a rethink on old theories. And 'Bones would rain from the sky' (not so easy to read) for relationship based training by an amazing GSD breeder and trainer that specializes in working dogs. I have 20 years of training under my belt and am in awe of her (but find her writing hard to read.) She has experiences with SAR, agility, schutzhund, and more, and just finished rewriting socializaiton and selection processes for one of the assistance dog organizations.

BTW- there is not a need for harshness in training. these guys are amazing:
http://www.canisclickertraining.com/
I have worked with them. stunningly excellent.

 

[Angelus9]

Well-trained SchH dogs are LESS liable to bite than any other dogs because of their intensive training in obedience and protection. The original therapy dogs of Therapy Dogs International were SchH 3 German Shepherd Dogs.

I agree that there are bad trainers out there, so do your research. I repeat, a well-trained Schutzhund dog is more stable, more reliable, and less of a liability than 90% of the dogs out there.

 

[Electrophile]

Sorry I didn't see this thread earlier, but yeah, I trained in Schutzhund a little over a year before our club folded due to some insane politics. A story for another time, suffice it to say. I actually got kind of soured on Schutzhund for a couple reasons. Mostly politics, but the sport itself is limited and is like the taekwondo of the dog sport world. It's okay, but it's really no guarantee of anything. I just started training in PSA (Protection Sport Association) a few months ago with me handling my male Malinois (in my avatar) and my husband handling our female Malinois (who is a certified therapy dog and a rescue) and I REALLY like it a lot. Way more realistic and fluid and less regimented than Schutzhund. And no boring tracking. I struggle with rote memorization, particularly when a bunch of people are watching me, so a sport where you have to know your stuff but the trials are more up to the judge on the spot is way more my style. Like if you have experience in competitive obedience, it's why I much prefer rally to standard obedience. Anyways, if you have any ring sport clubs (French Ring and Mondio Ring are the most common) or PSA clubs nearby, that'd be my personal suggestion.

I would highly recommend that anyone interested in working dog sport, particularly protection sport, join the Working Dog Forum. I post on there pretty extensively, but I read way more than I ever post. It can get convoluted (just like here ), but there are some of the top trainers in the world on there as well as newbies.

I really want to introduce more vets and vet students to working and performance dog sports. Most vets literally know **** all about dog training in terms of *very* basic obedience for their own dogs, let alone high levels of performance required in protection sports, so it's really really cool to see. Another awesome working dog sport to try is herding. We've been herding with my two Malinois and my Rottweiler for a little over 2 months now and it's by far the hardest thing I've trained in. Plus it's taught me a LOT about flight zones and working with small ruminants in general.

 

[sumstorm]

Well-trained SchH dogs are LESS liable to bite than any other dogs because of their intensive training in obedience and protection. The original therapy dogs of Therapy Dogs International were SchH 3 German Shepherd Dogs.

While I don't disagree with you, it won't matter to your insurance provider, nor to the landlord if you have to rent. And, as far as I know, there aren't ANY stats to back that up. also 'well-trained' is very subjective. A great schutzhund dog is a thinking dog that judges situations and acts appropriatly....not just be obedient (the handler that was knocked out or shot isn't calling the moves anymore.)

 

[Electrophile]

Which is why I think anyone who does protection sport (Schutzhund, ring sport, PSA, whatever) with their dogs needs to at least get the AKC CGC and the ATTS TT. Both my PSA dogs have their CGC and TT and my female is a certified therapy dog through TDI and our vet school's therapy dog club.

 

[NStarz]

While I don't disagree with you, it won't matter to your insurance provider, nor to the landlord if you have to rent. And, as far as I know, there aren't ANY stats to back that up. also 'well-trained' is very subjective. A great schutzhund dog is a thinking dog that judges situations and acts appropriatly....not just be obedient (the handler that was knocked out or shot isn't calling the moves anymore.)

Sorry to bump an old-ish thread, especially with the issues about training being discussed on the forum being addressed currently. I totally agree with you Sumstorm. Dogs are living creatures. They view the world as safe or unsafe. Proven fact. My cat who is the most loving creature in the world freaked out when he was placed in a new situation and bit me. Is he trained? Yes. But the situation made him uncomfortable and he acted upon it. Do I fault him for it? No.

Even a well-trained dog can act out on occassion or even go from placid--> attack mode in 2 seconds if given the right circumstances. A good trainer (and owner if they are the same person) knows what will set their animal off and does their best to work their animal through it. A cranky dog on a muggy day may be a little less tolerant of a child grabbing his tail and his ears (even if he his pet therapy and CGC certified). Dogs are not robots: you cannot program a "sit" into a computer and expect a perfect output every time. Environment effects behavior, simples as that.

This is not to say that every dog will attack or that a dog is a "ticking time bomb" (to use a phrase so often used with pit bulls), but that it is the responsibilty of the owner to maintain a partnership with their dog and to recognize what sets their dog off and how to manage it correctly. Training (or even owning a dog or any animal in general) is not a passive exercise. You always need to be on your toes. We can reason out a situation if we feel threatened, our dogs cannot.

ETA: As we say at the shelter, a TT is a snapshot in time. Everything affecting the dog that day will affect his performance on the test. Will Buster the border collie guard food when he isn't emaciated? Not sure. Granted, pet therapy and CGC are a little more long-term in terms of behavior, but the test itself is on one day at one location in one environment. That same dog in a completely foreign environment, forced into a dangerous situation may lash out.

 

[Electrophile]

While I don't disagree with this at all and I think a dog can be highly titled and still be a nervebag, having an owner/handler get their dog temperament tested or something like the CGC is also a good indication of the other end of the leash's willingness to manage the dog, which is obviously a big part of the equation.

 

[NStarz]

While I don't disagree with this at all and I think a dog can be highly titled and still be a nervebag, having an owner/handler get their dog temperament tested or something like the CGC is also a good indication of the other end of the leash's willingness to manage the dog, which is obviously a big part of the equation.

Definitely agree with this. However, I think you're missing the point of my post. A dog should not be labeled a "nervebag" because it is a living animal. What I meant to say (if I didn't make it clear before) is that dogs are reactive. They are reacting to their environment. If their environment is conducive to their training, then that's how they respond. However, a dog faced with an unfamiliar, dangerous, or frightening situation may react differently than their training suggests (that's why TTs in shelters are difficult to interpret). We train our dogs to perform specific tasks. Besides fear, which dogs are wonderful at generalizing about (of course!), dogs do not generalize training well. So a sit in one position with the owner (sitting right in front) is different from a sit by your side, even though it is essentially the same behavior. (A similar phenomenon occurs when you attempt to increase duration and distance of a 'sit' at the same time. I'd venture to say that 98% of dogs cannot understand both new things at the same time.)

Basically what I'm trying to say is that ANY dog can react differently than we, the owners/trainers, expect in a certain situation; it is not limited to those dogs that are "nervebags" or psychologically unstable. While CGC, TT, and pet therapy are a good indication of a dog's general temperament and behavior, they are (basically) one facet of a dog's personality. I think we would be doing them a disservice to think otherwise. And it is also dangerous (I think) to assume that a CGC or other such certified dog cannot become stressed and act out in a situation if the right (or wrong, depending on how you look at it) circumstances surround him or her.

 

[Electrophile]

Nope, there are some animals who are just nervy from birth with poor or weak temperaments. Work or foster with enough shelter animals, you'll see them come through. The ones that people think were "abused" but simply do not have strong temperaments. Many fear biters fit into this category. Some really were abused or lacked socialization, but I've worked with a couple doing behavior consults where the owner did just about everything right for socialization as a puppy but the dog was just nervy and a fear biter.

One of my own dogs is this way. He's a spook, plain and simple. He was my first "failed foster" returned to the shelter 3 times at least partially for this (and he chased cats, though doesn't chase mine). He's also got a low bite threshold (though high bite inhibition if he does bite) and I could not trust him with little children, but you'd never know it because I've got a ton of maintenance training and structure on him. He was also quite dog aggressive. He's mellowed out considerably with age (he's about 13-14ish now), but I couldn't have him adopted out to a "normal" home in good conscience. Incidentally, he also has a CGC and could almost certainly pass the TDI but then again, I have the good sense not to try to make him into a therapy dog either, even though his CGC evaluator remarked that she thought he'd make an excellent therapy dog. I am just realistic about his limitations. I think too many people look at their dogs with rose colored glasses.

When I first started training and working with dogs, especially "problem dogs," I thought just about every dog could be "saved." I've now found this to be untrue. Some dogs because of poor breeding are just not psychologically sound and never will be, or only should be kept by very experienced owners who know their limitations.

 

[NStarz]

Nope, there are some animals who are just nervy from birth with poor or weak temperaments. Work or foster with enough shelter animals, you'll see them come through. The ones that people think were "abused" but simply do not have strong temperaments. Many fear biters fit into this category. Some really were abused or lacked socialization, but I've worked with a couple doing behavior consults where the owner did just about everything right for socialization as a puppy but the dog was just nervy and a fear biter.

One of my own dogs is this way. He's a spook, plain and simple. He was my first "failed foster" returned to the shelter 3 times at least partially for this (and he chased cats, though doesn't chase mine). He's also got a low bite threshold (though high bite inhibition if he does bite) and I could not trust him with little children, but you'd never know it because I've got a ton of maintenance training and structure on him. He was also quite dog aggressive. He's mellowed out considerably with age (he's about 13-14ish now), but I couldn't have him adopted out to a "normal" home in good conscience. Incidentally, he also has a CGC and could almost certainly pass the TDI but then again, I have the good sense not to try to make him into a therapy dog either, even though his CGC evaluator remarked that she thought he'd make an excellent therapy dog. I am just realistic about his limitations. I think too many people look at their dogs with rose colored glasses.

When I first started training and working with dogs, especially "problem dogs," I thought just about every dog could be "saved." I've now found this to be untrue. Some dogs because of poor breeding are just not psychologically sound and never will be, or only should be kept by very experienced owners who know their limitations.

Agreed with everything you said. Some dogs are just like that because of temperament, breeding, whatever. But EVERY dog can have his off days, even if he is normally a temperamentally sound individual.

 

[sumstorm]

I am going to give a different example than bite work to illustrate the point.

My dog is certified for air-scent wilderness SAR work. She is great at this. now, we train dogs to find 'victims' but at a recent seminar I attended, 18/20 dogs didn't know what to do when they found the person on a bench eating a picnic and tossing the dog scraps. These are dogs that are well trained, extensively trained, whose owners testify in court cases, train a minimum of 4 hours a week on search work alone. over half have real, honest saves.

So why the failure? Simple. a 'victim' isn't likely to be doing that stuff. While I don't think my schutz trained dog will bite, I do not absolutly know that if I fell down an embankment, split my head open, was groaning in pain and spurting blood, and had grabbed at her in the process and wrenched her back, and a man in a strange uniform with funny head gear came tearing down towards me swinging unusual equipment and a giant board and bumped her...or approached me....I personally can't guarantee that, as sound as she is, she wouldn't react.

In my opinion, that is a reality with ANY dog...but if you have trained a dog to bite, you have included biting as part of the trained skills. that's the liability. that is why MD's can be sewed for bad medical advice, but your non-MD mother in law can't.