DO's aren't doing too bad matching are they?

[DrBumblebee]

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How will this change after the merging of ACGME, if at all? Since accreditation is carried out by ACGME how will employers view DO's? Obviously speculation but curious if anyone can throw out some conjectures here...

ACGME has strict controls on the quality of residency programs, thus those previously AOA affiliated programs that used to be called as "sub-par" either gotta climb up the hill and achieve the same standards or gotta get closed, which is in either case great for DOs.

 

[DrBumblebee]

Yep, tough to say on the DO degree issue. However, I still think the majority of it will still be based on 1) where the residency is done and 2) the connections the residents have.

People having MBBS from India, UK, or DR from European contries (like Germany, Turkey, etc.) have been certified to get the MD degree before applying to ACGME residencies. Those foreign degree holders are called FMG/IMG.

I think, the same procedure could be applied to DO degree holders with a major difference: DO degree holders won't be classified as FMG/IMG, although would be certified as MD before starting their ACGME residencies.

 

[MedPR]

ACGME has strict controls on the quality of residency programs, thus those previously AOA affiliated programs that used to be called as "sub-par" either gotta climb up the hill and achieve the same standards or gotta get closed, which is in either case great for DOs.

Eh that's debatable.

Better for patients? Yes.
Better for top-DOs? Yes.
Better for middle-of-the-road DOs? Yes, probably
Better for bottom-DOs? Probably not, since those terrible programs are the only ones these students could match to.

 

[DrBumblebee]

Eh that's debatable.

Better for patients? Yes.
Better for top-DOs? Yes.
Better for middle-of-the-road DOs? Yes, probably
Better for bottom-DOs? Probably not, since those terrible programs are the only ones these students could match to.

Well, I'm talking about the residency programs, not the DO physicians. DO medical schools are not related with how good/bad a residency program is.

However, almost universal truth for any MD or DO physician is that if you're terrible, then you'll have a tough chance anywhere you were gradauted from. Boards are still boards in anywhere.

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Accepted. Class of 2017.

 

[MedPR]

Well, I'm talking about the residency programs, not the DO physicians. DO medical schools are not related with how good/bad a residency program is.

However, almost universal truth for any MD or DO physician is that if you're terrible, then you'll have a tough chance anywhere you were gradauted from. Boards are still boards in anywhere.

---
Accepted. Class of 2017.

I am too. What I meant was that a 100/100 DO student with a 400 COMLEX and average clinical grades is not very competitive. An uncompetitive DO student in the past has likely matched only to the uncompetitive AOA programs. The uncompetitive AOA programs are likely the ones (if any) that will not pass ACGME standards and thus not get accredited. If those programs don't get accredited, there will be less options for the uncompetitive DO students.

Thus, while higher quality and standards helps patients and the majority of DO grads, it likely won't help those non-competitive DO grads.

 

[felix2929]

I am too. What I meant was that a 100/100 DO student with a 400 COMLEX and average clinical grades is not very competitive. An uncompetitive DO student in the past has likely matched only to the uncompetitive AOA programs. The uncompetitive AOA programs are likely the ones (if any) that will not pass ACGME standards and thus not get accredited. If those programs don't get accredited, there will be less options for the uncompetitive DO students.

Thus, while higher quality and standards helps patients and the majority of DO grads, it likely won't help those non-competitive DO grads.

Long term it would help all DOs though, in my opinion. One of the big complaints I've seen about DO schools is the rapid expansion of class sizes without increasing residency spots (and from what I can see as a premed, without securing quality clinical rotation spots). Perhaps if they start graduating students who can't secure a residency they will be forced to increase their admission standards and accept less students but of higher caliber. Once again, good for everyone, except the lowest scoring DO students

 

[MedPR]

Originally Posted by MedPR
I am too. What I meant was that a 100/100 DO student with a 400 COMLEX and average clinical grades is not very competitive. An uncompetitive DO student in the past has likely matched only to the uncompetitive AOA programs. The uncompetitive AOA programs are likely the ones (if any) that will not pass ACGME standards and thus not get accredited. If those programs don't get accredited, there will be less options for the uncompetitive DO students.

Thus, while higher quality and standards helps patients and the majority of DO grads, it likely won't help those non-competitive DO grads.

Long term it would help all DOs though, in my opinion. One of the big complaints I've seen about DO schools is the rapid expansion of class sizes without increasing residency spots (and from what I can see as a premed, without securing quality clinical rotation spots). Perhaps if they start graduating students who can't secure a residency they will be forced to increase their admission standards and accept less students but of higher caliber. Once again, good for everyone, except the lowest scoring DO students

Indeed. Higher standards are good for everyone except those who can't meet them

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[felix2929]

Indeed. Higher standards are good for everyone except those who can't meet them

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well as my father so kindly told me when touring DMU this fall, "if you can't succeed here, there is a great job at McDonalds waiting for you."
there are lots of other careers besides medicine

 

[SpecterGT260]

well as my father so kindly told me when touring DMU this fall, "if you can't succeed here, there is a great job at McDonalds waiting for you."
there are lots of other careers besides medicine

Is he a McDonalds franchise owner or just a D bag?

 

[Ost3oclast]

is he a mcdonalds franchise owner or just a d bag?

+1

 

[JeetKuneDo]

well as my father so kindly told me when touring DMU this fall, "if you can't succeed here, there is a great job at McDonalds waiting for you."
there are lots of other careers besides medicine

Extra motivation. 👍

 

[felix2929]

Is he a McDonalds franchise owner or just a D bag?

ha well.. no comment. He is an interventional cardiologist. He is a foreign grad though so I think he was mostly saying that compared to the training he received, DMU was far far superior.

 

[SpecterGT260]

ha well.. no comment. He is an interventional cardiologist. He is a foreign grad though so I think he was mostly saying that compared to the training he received, DMU was far far superior.

is... is that what he meant? DMU > Foreign?

I agree in that I would have attended DMU over a foreign shool, but if I were to tell someone "if you can't make it here you might as well go work fast food" I would be implying that the bar is set low enough that failure bodes especially unwell

 

[felix2929]

is... is that what he meant? DMU > Foreign?

I agree in that I would have attended DMU over a foreign shool, but if I were to tell someone "if you can't make it here you might as well go work fast food" I would be implying that the bar is set low enough that failure bodes especially unwell

Ah I see. No. I believe that since he is not in academia he has very little knowledge of a traditional american medical school. While we were touring at DMU they stressed the collaborative environment, the faculty's open door policy, use of technology, the standardized patients, SIM patients, etc (stuff they have at most schools). So I think he was saying that since the classes are in english (he went to school in mexico) and they seem to want to help you succeed, and they have all these teaching modalities, if I can't do well it is my fault and I'm probably not cut out for medicine. In my family this is what passes for a compliment.

 

[SpecterGT260]

ok

 

[HalfListic]

I am too. What I meant was that a 100/100 DO student with a 400 COMLEX and average clinical grades is not very competitive. An uncompetitive DO student in the past has likely matched only to the uncompetitive AOA programs. The uncompetitive AOA programs are likely the ones (if any) that will not pass ACGME standards and thus not get accredited. If those programs don't get accredited, there will be less options for the uncompetitive DO students.

Thus, while higher quality and standards helps patients and the majority of DO grads, it likely won't help those non-competitive DO grads.

Do you know how unlikely it is that ANY AOA programs will be shut down? Very. Or Extremely.

And another side of this point is that those un-competetive students are shooting for primary care slots, which seem to have plenty of spots so I don't think they really have anything to worry about either.

 

[MedPR]

Do you know how unlikely it is that ANY AOA programs will be shut down? Very. Or Extremely.

And another side of this point is that those un-competetive students are shooting for primary care slots, which seem to have plenty of spots so I don't think they really have anything to worry about either.

Time will tell.

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[SpecterGT260]

Do you know how unlikely it is that ANY AOA programs will be shut down? Very. Or Extremely.

And another side of this point is that those un-competetive students are shooting for primary care slots, which seem to have plenty of spots so I don't think they really have anything to worry about either.

Depends..... I may gave made this up, but won't all AOA programs require usmle 1 now?

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[HalfListic]

Depends..... I may gave made this up, but won't all AOA programs require usmle 1 now?

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No, unfortunately, COMLEX survives....


I wish we only had one board exam to worry about, but thats not yet the case

 

[SpecterGT260]

No, unfortunately, COMLEX survives....


I wish we only had one board exam to worry about, but thats not yet the case

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was under the impression that the USMLE was going to be required (all 3 steps) but the AOA said that you guys still have to take COMLEX step 1. Either way, every DO will have USMLE1, yes?

 

[MedPR]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was under the impression that the USMLE was going to be required (all 3 steps) but the AOA said that you guys still have to take COMLEX step 1. Either way, every DO will have USMLE1, yes?

I would hope so. Can't standardize applicants if they aren't all taking the same test.

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[DrBumblebee]

Do you know how unlikely it is that ANY AOA programs will be shut down? Very. Or Extremely.

And another side of this point is that those un-competetive students are shooting for primary care slots, which seem to have plenty of spots so I don't think they really have anything to worry about either.

+1

Already having short of available residency spots for future MD graduates, ACGME is well aware of the fact that there's no good reason for them to shut down any of the residency programs of which it gained from AOA recently. On the countrary, ACGME would keep all current AOA residency programs, at least, intact, if not improve.

There exist only many ways to improve the quality of a residency program to make it on par with some of those of the ACGME ones. It only takes mobilization of deductive and financial resources toward these programs to proliferate. If this mobilization is realized, then I also expect a rush from the academic world into these residency programs as a fresh resource. This will in turn affect the professor:student ratio and quality of education.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I would hope so. Can't standardize applicants if they aren't all taking the same test.

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I just think it will be interesting.... Per the only literature available on the subject, AOA ROADS are not as competitive as ACGME ROADS. Once that becomes a rule I wonder if they will have the same average step1 scores as their ACGME counterparts.

 

[MedPR]

I just think it will be interesting.... Per the only literature available on the subject, AOA ROADS are not as competitive as ACGME ROADS. Once that becomes a rule I wonder if they will have the same average step1 scores as their ACGME counterparts.

I'm sure they'll eventually go up a little. I think all the borderline ACGME ROAD people (like 230-240 step 1) will look to the AOA ROAD, thereby increasing the AOA ROAD scores. If you buy into the belief that MDs do better on USMLE than DOs do, then you can go one step further and speculate that AOA ROADs will be saturated with MD students, thereby pushing out the DO students and *gasp* make this merger a bad thing for DOs.

 

[SpecterGT260]

or there will be potentially be a score gap between the programs. I have no idea if they tie that into the "standards" at all, but the conversation was about programs closing and such.

Either way, this WILL (assuming I was correct earlier) result in a ton of data to finally come up with a solid conversion for the USMLE and COMLEX. I just find it interesting.

 

[MedPR]

or there will be potentially be a score gap between the programs. I have no idea if they tie that into the "standards" at all, but the conversation was about programs closing and such.

Either way, this WILL (assuming I was correct earlier) result in a ton of data to finally come up with a solid conversion for the USMLE and COMLEX. I just find it interesting.

Yea that's another thing. I don't think you can make a solid conversion between USMLE and COMLEX if you still have only one group of students (DO) taking both though.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Yea that's another thing. I don't think you can make a solid conversion between USMLE and COMLEX if you still have only one group of students (DO) taking both though.

I don't see why not. What would having MDs take the comlex add to the comparisons of the two TESTS? you could more easily compare MD and DO doing that but that isn't what I was talking about


If all AOA and all ACGME programs take usmle it would be a perfectly valid comparison. It is apples to apples.
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[DrBumblebee]

Yea that's another thing. I don't think you can make a solid conversion between USMLE and COMLEX if you still have only one group of students (DO) taking both though.

How about for those programs to keep considering only COMLEX scores? They're used to educating DOs from the beginning. They'll only suffer a little bit with MD students.

Being ACGME approved and controlled shouldn't mean to give up any of the working standards. Otherwise, it's gonna be a big disservice to DO students, and an unfair sacrifice. There's no need for COMLEX and OMM to be given up. DOs who'd like to apply other already ACGME residency programs can take USMLE, and apply there if they feel the need. At the end, all of the programs are ACGME accredited.

This is a unification process to educate more competent American physicians in American, not a surrender of any side!

 

[MedPR]

I don't see why not. What would having MDs take the comlex add to the comparisons of the two TESTS? you could more easily compare MD and DO doing that but that isn't what I was talking about


If all AOA and all ACGME programs take usmle it would be a perfectly valid comparison. It is apples to apples.
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Don't MDs currently do better than DOs on USMLE? And that's considering only a self selecting DO population. The gap will likely increase if/when all DOs start taking USMLE. Making a connection between two tests based on on a student population with very different score distributions than the majority of test takers doesn't make sense to me. That's like taking the mcat scores and USMLE scores of WashU med students and publishing a paper describing the "connection between mcat and USMLE"

How about for those programs to keep considering only COMLEX scores? They're used to educating DOs from the beginning. They'll only suffer a little bit with MD students.

Being ACGME approved and controlled shouldn't mean to give up any of the working standards. Otherwise, it's gonna be a big disservice to DO students, and an unfair sacrifice. There's no need for COMLEX and OMM to be given up. DOs who'd like to apply other already ACGME residency programs can take USMLE, and apply there if they feel the need. At the end, all of the programs are ACGME accredited.

This is a unification process to educate more competent American physicians in American, not a surrender of any side!

Sorry, you lost me.

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[SpecterGT260]

Don't MDs currently do better than DOs on USMLE? And that's considering only a self selecting DO population. The gap will likely increase if/when all DOs start taking USMLE. Making a connection between two tests based on on a student population with very different score distributions than the majority of test takers doesn't make sense to me. That's like taking the mcat scores and USMLE scores of WashU med students and publishing a paper describing the "connection between mcat and USMLE"




Sorry, you lost me.

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What are you getting at here? I am not sure if they do better or not. However both disciplines have access to the same prep materials. The only question standing to be answered is if the AOA has selected the same level of applicant for its more competitive programs.

Are you expecting MD students to do poorly on comlex relative to DO? Just wondering what makes this seem like a poor comparison to you

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[HockeyDr09]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was under the impression that the USMLE was going to be required (all 3 steps) but the AOA said that you guys still have to take COMLEX step 1. Either way, every DO will have USMLE1, yes?

I would hope so. Can't standardize applicants if they aren't all taking the same test.

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As of right now, DO students do not need to take to USMLE. I don't see the USMLE being mandatory anytime in the next decade. The AOA loves the COMLEX.

How will the COMLEX exam play into the application process for GME? Will the osteopathic focused programs still require the COMLEX score?

COMLEX-USA will continue to be the required examination series and the pathway to licensure for osteopathic physicians. It is widely recognized and universally accepted as the valid examination for osteopathic physician competency assessment for licensure. It is also required by accreditation standards established by the Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA), and is a requirement for graduation from all colleges of osteopathic medicine. COMLEX-USA is regarded by the majority of residency program directors of AOA and ACGME accredited residency programs as an important and useful assessment tool as part of the evaluation of DO residency applicants for their programs. In addition, the National Board of Osteopathic Medical Examiners has developed tools for residency program directors to correlate COMLEX scores with the USMLE.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/acgme-frequently-asked-questions-students.aspx

They were definitely adamant about it during their webcasts.

I think we'd all be happier if we could uniformly take the USMLE, and then an additional OMM exam. One can hope I guess.

 

[SpecterGT260]

As of right now, DO students do not need to take to USMLE. I don't see the USMLE being mandatory anytime in the next decade. The AOA loves the COMLEX.

Well that kills that idea

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[HalfListic]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was under the impression that the USMLE was going to be required (all 3 steps) but the AOA said that you guys still have to take COMLEX step 1. Either way, every DO will have USMLE1, yes?

Sorry to leave this question hanging, but SDN was freaking out on me and I gave up for a while. (Anyone else having trouble today with horrible refresh/load times??)

Anyway, looks like HockeyDr answered anyways

 

[HalfListic]

What are you getting at here? I am not sure if they do better or not. However both disciplines have access to the same prep materials. The only question standing to be answered is if the AOA has selected the same level of applicant for its more competitive programs.

Are you expecting MD students to do poorly on comlex relative to DO? Just wondering what makes this seem like a poor comparison to you

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Exactly, this is how I see it too. Also, I would extend it both ways and wonder if both AOA and ACGME will ever select the same level of applicant for their competitive slots, or if bias will continue to be the status quo.

Honestly, sometimes I don't really see bias being given up by either side in a significant way. At least, unless there is an actual MD, DO merger, I don't see it happening...each side will prefer "their" students.

Is this too cynical?

 

[Ost3oclast]

Exactly, this is how I see it too. Also, I would extend it both ways and wonder if both AOA and ACGME will ever select the same level of applicant for their competitive slots, or if bias will continue to be the status quo.

Honestly, sometimes I don't really see bias being given up by either side in a significant way. At least, unless there is an actual MD, DO merger, I don't see it happening...each side will prefer "their" students.

Is this too cynical?

I think you are spot on.

 

[MedPR]

What are you getting at here? I am not sure if they do better or not. However both disciplines have access to the same prep materials. The only question standing to be answered is if the AOA has selected the same level of applicant for its more competitive programs.

Are you expecting MD students to do poorly on comlex relative to DO? Just wondering what makes this seem like a poor comparison to you

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Just doesn't make sense to make a statement about a test based on only a select part of the test takers.

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[MedPR]

Exactly, this is how I see it too. Also, I would extend it both ways and wonder if both AOA and ACGME will ever select the same level of applicant for their competitive slots, or if bias will continue to be the status quo.

Honestly, sometimes I don't really see bias being given up by either side in a significant way. At least, unless there is an actual MD, DO merger, I don't see it happening...each side will prefer "their" students.

Is this too cynical?

Not too cynical

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[Dr Potato]

I have become self-aware. I am no longer a potato. I am Dr Potato.

 

[Midifelder10]

Sample of 1. My doc told me they have DO in their practice and he is great and told me to apply DO. It seems IM and fellowship into Nephrology, Endo, Gastro etc is not an issue. Other stuff is a *itch.

 

[JGimpel]

In

 

[MedPR]

Sample of 1. My doc told me they have DO in their practice and he is great and told me to apply DO. It seems IM and fellowship into Nephrology, Endo, Gastro etc is not an issue. Other stuff is a *itch.

GI is one of the most competitive IM fellowships.

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[SoulinNeed]

Now we can agree...to some groups, in highly competitive positions/hospitals, it matters. I've agreed all along. But, it's hard for MDs here as well.

DOs fall in place as mid to low level MD schools...so for the very few programs where they actually care, are they are few, both mid to low MD schoolers as well as DO schoolers, will usually be beat out by mid to high tier MD/residency/fellowship trained physicians.



You have to present this as exceptional...not the rule. DOs can get a job just as easy as MDs...to think otherwise is delusional.

Wait, you believe that DO schools fall into place with mid to low tier MD schools? Really?

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Wait, you believe that DO schools fall into place with mid to low tier MD schools? Really?

How dare he, right? Not to worry though; It was brought to my attention that HL cut out his own tongue after speaking such blasphemy...

Soul, please enlighten the unintelligible pre-osteo forum of the obviously superior preparation that is provided by the almighty MD institution vs the well documented, sub par training that takes place for those family practice back crackers known as DOs.

 

[Ost3oclast]

How dare he, right? Not to worry though; It was brought to my attention that HL cut out his own tongue after speaking such blasphemy...

Soul, please enlighten the unintelligible pre-osteo forum of the obviously superior preparation that is provided by the almighty MD institution vs the well documented, sub par training that takes place for those family practice back crackers known as DOs.

I'm surprised DO's are still considered doctors......just a bunch of MD failures that go to back ally "med schools". I think DO's should be worshiping the ground MD's walk on, while thanking them that they don't kick all DO's out of their communities.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

I'm surprised DO's are still considered doctors......just a bunch of MD failures that go to back ally "med schools". I think DO's should be worshiping the ground MD's walk on, while thanking them that they don't kick all DO's out of their communities.

It is quite obvious that the unified residency effort is actually a clever ploy (far too clever for osteopathic level intelligence to recognize) to expose osteopathic graduate's inability to perform in real (ACGME) residency programs. In turn, the powers at hand will be forced to realize that DOs are nothing more than glorified chiropractors and will put an end to this nonsense once and for all.

 

[113]

I'm surprised DO's are still considered doctors......just a bunch of MD failures that go to back ally "med schools". I think DO's should be worshiping the ground MD's walk on, while thanking them that they don't kick all DO's out of their communities.

Are we positive that the forum title isn't a typo? What's a DO? It should be OD.

 

[Ost3oclast]

Are we positive that the forum title isn't a typo? What's a DO? It should be OD.

Hhhmmmmm maybe.... 😉 we should ask Lee wtf he was thinking.

 

[Ost3oclast]

It is quite obvious that the unified residency effort is actually a clever ploy (far too clever for osteopathic level intelligence to recognize) to expose osteopathic graduate's inability to perform in real (ACGME) residency programs. In turn, the powers at hand will be forced to realize that DOs are nothing more than glorified chiropractors and will put an end to this nonsense once and for all.

Hopefully DO's, or diplomats of osteopathy as they should now be called, will be able to take over chiropractors and be able to put SOME food on the table....maybe even buy a 94' civic after 20 years of practice.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Hopefully DO's, or diplomats of osteopathy as they should now be called, will be able to take over chiropractors and be able to put SOME food on the table....maybe even buy a 94' civic after 20 years of practice.

Once these "medical doctor" impostors have been properly disposed of and relegated back to their chiropractic roots; the lack of public awareness within the general public will cause an even further decline of the profession. People will wonder why they would ever get their back adjusted by an optometrist when they could use an actual chiropractor. In other words, i believe that a 94' civic is a stretch.

 

[JGimpel]

Here a quack, hear a crack, every where a quack quack...

Gotta admit, at least patients know what they're getting when they go to a chiropractor.

Search your heart, you know this to be true...

What's a DO? I don't have a bone problem! Are you guys real doctors? Why are you touching me so much?

I aspire to own some sort of late-model Honda when I finish combining my practice fully with the Scientology one down the street.

[/verbal Harlem Shake]