No, you're wrong, I never said that it was the sole determinant. You did. I said its ONE of the key indicators. reread.
Read your own post. You referenced operative time, by my count, 5 times. And disparaged every other factor (like academic reputation).
Many programs such as cleveland clinic, harvard are great to work at yet dont offer comprehensive training because people either dont start early enough in residency to train -fellows calling shots, or dont get enough operative time. Obviously this is not a generalization. But that even name brands dont mean anything.
So lets look at another key indicator-operative time. Obviously none of the programs compare to HSS or the other top 5-10. But which allo students are going to get in those anyway? Unless you went to a top ten ALLO school you hardly have a shot here. So saying that your residency program is middling compared to Allo is a wash. It adds no weight other than to crush a future doctor's opinion of what do residencies have to offer.
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Finally, and MOST importantly, lets look at operative time. I know nothing about quality of DO residencies but if the best programs offer high operative time (which I hear they do especially for ortho) as compared to the better MD programs then you're fine. Ultimately its how much experience you get,
Also, the best program happens to be HSS. I dont know a single med student from a mid tier allo school (25+) going to the HSS for orthopedics.
A 1 minute google search showed the incoming class for orthopedics at HSS.
http://hss.edu/files/Photos_of_Class_of_2015.pdf
One from Jefferson, one from Case, one from Keck-USC, one from Wisconsin. Half the incoming class, therefore, are from non-top 20 schools. You will probably just move the goalpost and argue that by some metric those schools are "top" but I bet if you look further at their current residents quite a few will be from non-"top" schools.
Does that mean all other students and their training are worthless? Does that mean they don't have adequate preparation to be surgeons? because last I checked HSS makes a handful of orthopedic surgeons a year. Most patients are just fine seeing other doctors. Your statement smacks against how most physicians are prepared-not at the rockstar programs.
Mid-tier programs are mid-tier, and the surgeons coming out of these programs will likely emerge as competent. I never said they were worthless, that's you trying to put words in my mouth. What I did say that in terms of program quality the best osteopathic residencies can only compare, at best, to mid-tier ACGME programs.
So really, you cant compare DO training to the top 5 programs because lets face it...most allo students wont even get into those. Unless you went to Harvard, Columbia, etc. your chances of getting into the truly best programs (not based off rankings but common knowledge amongst the expert physicians which programs are the best) is slim at best (read-its possible, but highly unlikely).
This is a common misconception. Most students are unaware just how democratic the residency application process is, if you are an American MD applicant. Even the lower tier schools match a few people at the best programs every year (check their match lists). In fact, many "elite" program directors WANT residents from lesser schools for diversity. If you have great USMLE scores and grades, with great recommendations, you absolutely do have a shot at the top programs as an American MD. You are
completely off base here.
Also, higher quality programs tend to be in tertiary centers that get the tough cases. What good is getting lots of time in the OR at the Podunk Osteopathic Clinic if all the really difficult and interesting cases get shipped out to Big University Hospital?
Seriously? what kind of generalized BS statement is that? are you even paying attention to what you write? Here's a residency program for orthopedics (statement directly from their website)-
Mercy St. Vincent Medical Center in Toledo, Ohio, offers an AOA approved 5-year residency in Orthopedic Surgery, and provides broad exposure to orthopedic surgery cases. Residents receive training at a tertiary center, as well as at several community hospitals
Not all DO programs are at some "podunk" community center.
No, but most are. You can verify this on the Opportunities site.
it is seeing and managing the difficult cases that make one an exceptional
surgeon
Really? how often does someone come across a difficult case and actually operate on?
How often? Not often, but more likely in a specialty center compared to a community program. That's the point. You can't learn surgery from a book. You need to see the cases to do the cases. Are you more likely to do more Whipples, for example, at a community program or at a university? If you were a patient needing a Whipple, where would you rather be?
Do you have real figures or do you just throw these words out? What do you define difficult cases as? Is there a direct relationship or correlation between difficult cases and how common they present?
You're pimping me? How cute.
What about fellowships? Specialization in fellowships are often open to many doctors both osteopaths and allopaths through allo programs for orthopedics. I know of several who have trained at Mayo clinic, etc. And usually in these programs fellows get excellent training (while the residency may be questionable because of a lack of operative opportunity).
And that's the problem - residents have to fall back on fellowship training because they didn't get enough exposure as residents to certain cases. As a surgeon I went to school with mentioned, this is going to get worse because of duty hour restrictions limiting OR time for residents.
So, I stand by my statement about the relative merit of "the best" osteopathic programs compared to ACGME.
Again, it depends on which schools you're comparing to in the ACGME. if you're comparing to the best programs you can forget it...even the best allo students from mediocre MD schools wont get into those residencies or will have an extremely slim chance.
Untrue, as I pointed out already. Instead of basing your opinions on your obviously VERY limited real world experience, you could take advice from people who have been there already.
goober-
This post is wrong at many many levels. You simply do not have the experience to even know what surgical residency is, let alone what constitutes good or great training at one.
Fine, no disagreement here. So let me ask you an innocuous question: Do you?
Perhaps instead of posting your long-winded replies, try to find out more about who you are arguing with. I think goooooober knows a tad more than you do about surgery residencies.
