DOs that don't match

[game24]

---

Members don't see this ad.

With an increase in the number of new medical schools and the merger between AOA
ACGME residencies in 2015 there will be a shortage in residency spots. What happens to DOs that fail to ever match? Can they work at a pharmaceutical company or something else?
Is the DO degree useless without a residency?

 

[Dharma]

With an increase in the number of new medical schools and the merger between AOA
ACGME residencies in 2015 there will be a shortage in residency spots.

Source?

 

[Dharma]

Ok, I beat ya to it:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMhpr1107519

Scroll down to Fig. 1. At current rate of residency growth (~.9%), even by 2020 there will still be more GME positions than total US MD+DO grads. Assuming no change in residency spots from today's #... still more positions available than total US grads. A reduction of 1% in positions (which I'm not sure is happening anytime soon) on the other hand would spell trouble about 2016-2017. All of this said, this article does not take the added AOA residencies into account (I'm not sure if they included the other matches, e.g. SF, either).

While things are going to get tight in the coming years for grads, I think it's safe to say that a DO grad, who passes his boards and doesn't have red flags, will have a spot waiting for him someplace. If he flushed opportunity down the toilet, then that's another story. FMGs and US students who went abroad are already seeing the crunch though. That's another story as well.

If anything I'd be more worried about landing a job as a pharmacist in the next few years. Looks like it's getting tight out there...

 

[game24]

Ok, I beat ya to it:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMhpr1107519

Scroll down to Fig. 1. At current rate of residency growth (~.9%), even by 2020 there will still be more GME positions than total US MD+DO grads. Assuming no change in residency spots from today's #... still more positions available than total US grads. A reduction of 1% in positions (which I'm not sure is happening anytime soon) on the other hand would spell trouble about 2016-2017. All of this said, this article does not take the added AOA residencies into account (I'm not sure if they included the other matches, e.g. SF, either).

While things are going to get tight in the coming years for grads, I think it's safe to say that a DO grad, who passes his boards and doesn't have red flags, will have a spot waiting for him someplace. If he flushed opportunity down the toilet, then that's another story. FMGs and US students who went abroad are already seeing the crunch though. That's another story as well.

If anything I'd be more worried about landing a job as a pharmacist in the next few years. Looks like it's getting tight out there...

A strong US IMG 230+ on boards will be favored over a DO who took the boards twice or passed with a low score on the 1st attempt. So DOs maybe left out if they don't pass on the 1st attempt with high scores.

 

[Ost3oclast]

A strong US IMG 230+ on boards will be favored over a DO who took the boards twice or passed with a low score on the 1st attempt. So DOs maybe left out if they don't pass on the 1st attempt with high scores.

Hahaha well obviously.....

 

[docnotsopc]

A strong US IMG 230+ on boards will be favored over a DO who took the boards twice or passed with a low score on the 1st attempt. So DOs maybe left out if they don't pass on the 1st attempt with high scores.

You sir are a regular Einstein

Did you also know that a harvard grad with a 250 USMLE has a better chance at a residency position than an IMG from Antarctica? Omg who would have guessed, am i right or am i right?!?!

 

[kindasorta]

A strong US IMG 230+ on boards will be favored over a DO who took the boards twice or passed with a low score on the 1st attempt. So DOs maybe left out if they don't pass on the 1st attempt with high scores.

Failed boards? Probably. Passed with low score? Doubt it. Many places place much higher standards on IMGs, while others simply won't interview them altogether.

 

[game24]

You sir are a regular Einstein

Did you also know that a harvard grad with a 250 USMLE has a better chance at a residency position than an IMG from Antarctica? Omg who would have guessed, am i right or am i right?!?!

The poster that I responded to made it sound like US DOs would be given priority over US IMGs no matter what. US DOs have their exclusive AOA spots for right now, but in 2015 they will lose their safety net so they will have no margin for error like US IMGs.

 

[game24]

Can somebody please address the original question?

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Are you thinking of doing pre-med? I would think a DO degree by itself is pretty useless. Even if you want to do consulting, you would probably have to get an MBA or something of the like.

 

[game24]

Are you thinking of doing pre-med? I would think a DO degree by itself is pretty useless. Even if you want to do consulting, you would probably have to get an MBA or something of the like.

I already have my bachelor's degree. I am torn between DO and pharmacy school.
For pharmacy school I could take the board four times and still get a job. For DO school
with the ACGME and AOA merger I would need to pass the boards on the 1st attempt
with good scores to obtain residency.

 

[Ost3oclast]

The poster that I responded to made it sound like US DOs would be given priority over US IMGs no matter what. US DOs have their exclusive AOA spots for right now, but in 2015 they will lose their safety net so they will have no margin for error like US IMGs.

Are you really going to compare DO students to carib students?

 

[GopherMD]

I already have my bachelor's degree. I am torn between DO and pharmacy school.
For pharmacy school I could take the board four times and still get a job. For DO school
with the ACGME and AOA merger I would need to pass the boards on the 1st attempt
with good scores to obtain residency.

Are you REALLY planning on failing the boards? You do realize around 90-95% of students pass the boards on the first try...

Edit: I saw that you are an IMG at AUC. You can kiss your chances of attending a US medical school goodbye. No US school would even think of accepting someone who went to the Caribbean for medical school previously. Your best bet is to retake the USMLE and kick ass on it (and I mean KICK MAJOR ASS)

I am an FMG(Caribbean) looking for a noncompetitive residency like FM. How should I
explain the long gap?

I recently took step 1 and got a score of 183...

I was in your same class at AUC.

 

[GopherMD]

Are you really going to compare DO students to carib students?

I just looked through the OP's post history. Looks like he/she is an IMG from AUC. He/She is obviously trying to justify their decision of going to the Caribbean.

 

[game24]

I just looked through the OP's post history. Looks like he/she is an IMG from AUC. He/She is obviously trying to justify their decision of going to the Caribbean.

No. I screwed up by not going to a DO school. I hate myself for the decision that I made. I could lie about attending AUC and start over but I want to know what will be a DO's residency chances in 2017 and beyond with the 2015 merger. More importantly what jobs can a DO get if they fail to ever get residency because for me Carib MD without residency = trash.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

No. I screwed up by not going to a DO school. I hate myself for the decision that I made. I could lie about attending AUC and start over but I want to know what will be a DO's residency chances in 2017 and beyond with the 2015 merger. More importantly what jobs can a DO get if they fail to ever get residency because for me Carib MD without residency = trash.

Ah, yeah this really does make things complicated. How is your debt? I'm not sure how much AUC was, but most DO schools would run you almost 300k in debt. Pharmacy may be your best option without ending up close to 800k in debt pre interest.

The merger is going to make all residencies ACGME certified. I'm not certain on details, but I take this to mean that even previous DO residencies will now have to accept USMLE scores. This is why enrolling in a DO school and lying about attending AUC would be a bad idea. Your old USMLE score may pop up in the residency application.

This is pretty unfortunate, I wish you the best of luck. To me, your options are either score well on step 1 retake and destroy it, or apply pharm schools.

 

[Dharma]

The merger is going to make all residencies ACGME certified. I'm not certain on details, but I take this to mean that even previous DO residencies will now have to accept USMLE scores.

I hope you're right, but I don't think the COMLEX isn't going away anytime soon and I doubt we will see complete integration right away (including MD students in DO residencies, although this would be the logical move IMO). AOA residencies, although under the ACGME umbrella, will still be AOA and they will still want to see the COMLEX (especially bc of the OMM component) for the foreseeable future. Of course while this may change eventually, I suspect a transition away from the status quo will take at least a few years beyond 2015, should all of this definitely go down. I could be wrong, but that's my prediction.

 

[Ost3oclast]

I just looked through the OP's post history. Looks like he/she is an IMG from AUC. He/She is obviously trying to justify their decision of going to the Caribbean.

Gotcha I knew something was weird.

OP, dont lie about attending a different med school to DO schools. If you were to apply and get accepted, and the school found out, they could kick you out of school.

Also, DO match rates arent going down with the merger. If anybody is getting pushed out of the match its IMG/FMG students.

 

[SpecterGT260]

A strong US IMG 230+ on boards will be favored over a DO who took the boards twice or passed with a low score on the 1st attempt. So DOs maybe left out if they don't pass on the 1st attempt with high scores.

possibly.... the AOA programs will still likely favor DOs if they are eventually opened up to MDs both US and IMG. So there is that.

I don't really see the point of your post. Yes, someone who screws up will often be favored lower than someone who does well. But on the whole, DOs match better than IMGs. They also have a history of performing better academically which makes the IMG at 230+ vs low passing DO somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison. The thing you seem to not consider here is the specialty. IMGs don't match well regardless. So a low passing DO may struggle somewhat to find a seat, but FM will have plenty of spots open. That IMG isn't going to be competitive for surgery, and may possibly land IM just because of the number of seats, but if he wants FM they are both probably sitting at about the same place.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I hope you're right, but I don't think the COMLEX isn't going away anytime soon and I doubt we will see complete integration right away (including MD students in DO residencies, although this would be the logical move IMO). AOA residencies, although under the ACGME umbrella, will still be AOA and they will still want to see the COMLEX (especially bc of the OMM component) for the foreseeable future. Of course while this may change eventually, I suspect a transition away from the status quo will take at least a few years beyond 2015, should all of this definitely go down. I could be wrong, but that's my prediction.

Definitely agree. For our future, COMLEX is here to stay. In the context of the OP's question though, I wouldn't risk lying and applying to DO schools.

 

[kindasorta]

As I said in another similar thread, they will find out you lied, thanks to the financial aid department.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I just looked through the OP's post history. Looks like he/she is an IMG from AUC. He/She is obviously trying to justify their decision of going to the Caribbean.

why does it say pharmacy? troll fail?


EDIT: ah, saw the post with the details.
Yeah... the USMLE doesn't go away with re-entering a different med school. That 183 is there for good, so I am somewhat confused about the point of this thread in the first place. MD and DO schools will likely either know or find out he attended a carib school. Or they will figure it out when they try to register him for step1 = automatic dismissal for lying.

 

[Ost3oclast]

possibly.... the AOA programs will still likely favor DOs if they are eventually opened up to MDs both US and IMG. So there is that.

I don't really see the point of your post. Yes, someone who screws up will often be favored lower than someone who does well. But on the whole, DOs match better than IMGs. They also have a history of performing better academically which makes the IMG at 230+ vs low passing DO somewhat of an apples to oranges comparison. The thing you seem to not consider here is the specialty. IMGs don't match well regardless. So a low passing DO may struggle somewhat to find a seat, but FM will have plenty of spots open. That IMG isn't going to be competitive for surgery, and may possibly land IM just because of the number of seats, but if he wants FM they are both probably sitting at about the same place.

This

 

[game24]

As I said in another similar thread, they will find out you lied, thanks to the financial aid department.

My parents paid off all my loans so they won't find out.

 

[game24]

why does it say pharmacy? troll fail?


EDIT: ah, saw the post with the details.
Yeah... the USMLE doesn't go away with re-entering a different med school. That 183 is there for good, so I am somewhat confused about the point of this thread in the first place. MD and DO schools will likely either know or find out he attended a carib school. Or they will figure it out when they try to register him for step1 = automatic dismissal for lying.

This is what I'm trying to figure out. If I am only required to take the Comlex they won't find out.

 

[notbobtrustme]

[/B]

This is what I'm trying to figure out. If I am only required to take the Comlex they won't find out.

You can give it a shot but chances are someone will find out during your new school career. Secondly, you should be able to match to some non-competitive specialties in undesirable locations if you really want to practice medicine. Why throw away another 4 years of your life?

 

[SpecterGT260]

My parents paid off all my loans so they won't find out.

Not necessarily true. The financial aid office will have a good deal of info on you, and you will be required to fill out a FAFSA (I think... you have to for MD school if you want any financial aid). I can't imagine your previous borrowing wouldn't show up here

[/B]

This is what I'm trying to figure out. If I am only required to take the Comlex they won't find out.

I see.... Well, potentially you could get away with it. However, you will be pretty restricted to where you apply and by the time you graduate there may be changes where the USMLE needs to be taken as well. This is assuming you can even get in which may be a small miracle in the first place.

I don't know about pharmacy, but I don't think they discriminate too hard against people in your situation. You will obviously need to be competitive which, due to you being a current carib student, may not be the case..... but I'm speculating on a lot right now.

 

[SpecterGT260]

You can give it a shot but chances are someone will find out during your new school career. Secondly, you should be able to match to some non-competitive specialties in undesirable locations if you really want to practice medicine. Why throw away another 4 years of your life?

possibly.... Every year seats go unfilled in certain specialties.... and I don't think it is due to lack of applicants. Yes, these are at the less desirable programs, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the PDs here are not willing to just open the doors freely for the sake of filling seats.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

[/B]

This is what I'm trying to figure out. If I am only required to take the Comlex they won't find out.

That's the thing. We don't know what will be required in the future. Unless all the details are out and I'm out of the loop, it's still uncertain. There is a chance that since it's all ACGME umbrella, they may not necessarily require USMLE. But by that time, they might require you to report USMLE scores if you took it. I assume the USMLE is attached permanently to you by SSN or something.

 

[game24]

Not necessarily true. The financial aid office will have a good deal of info on you, and you will be required to fill out a FAFSA (I think... you have to for MD school if you want any financial aid). I can't imagine your previous borrowing wouldn't show up here



I see.... Well, potentially you could get away with it. However, you will be pretty restricted to where you apply and by the time you graduate there may be changes where the USMLE needs to be taken as well. This is assuming you can even get in which may be a small miracle in the first place.

I don't know about pharmacy, but I don't think they discriminate too hard against people in your situation. You will obviously need to be competitive which, due to you being a current carib student, may not be the case..... but I'm speculating on a lot right now.

My parents will be taking a bank loan for pharmacy or DO school so the FAFSA scenario
won't be an issue. I have a 3.65 Science GPA in undergrad so I am competitive for many
pharmacy and DO schools. I also had a 28 MCAT score when I took the exam. I just don't want to get caught do to the merger.

 

[SpecterGT260]

My parents will be taking a bank loan for pharmacy or DO school so the FAFSA scenario
won't be an issue. I have a 3.65 Science GPA in undergrad so I am competitive for many
pharmacy and DO schools. I also had a 28 MCAT score when I took the exam. I just don't want to get caught do to the merger.

why didn't you apply DO the first time around?

 

[game24]

why didn't you apply DO the first time around?

My parents didn't want "DO" after my name. Even if I went to a DO program initially I would still have a large gap in my medical education due to extenuating circumstances that I can't disclose to program directors. So I would still have two major red flags- 1. Large Gap
2. One Step One failure(I was scoring well on NBME forms but I choked on the real test)
Going to AUC adds another barrier- IMG.

 

[GopherMD]

My parents didn't want "DO" after my name. Even if I went to a DO program initially I would still have a large gap in my medical education due to extenuating circumstances that I can't disclose to program directors. So I would still have two major red flags- 1. Large Gap
2. One Step One failure(I was scoring well on NBME forms but I choked on the real test)
Going to AUC adds another barrier- IMG.

I think your only "good" option is to retake the USMLE. You are in an unfortunate situation and I wish you the best of luck.

 

[notbobtrustme]

I think your only "good" option is to retake the USMLE. You are in an unfortunate situation and I wish you the best of luck.

I don't think he can; it sounded like he passed, albeit barely.

 

[GopherMD]

I don't think he can; it sounded like he passed, albeit barely.

Crap, I forgot about that. Well there goes that idea...

EDIT: OP did actually fail. Never mind

 

[DocEspana]

My parents didn't want "DO" after my name.

Tiger parents!

 

[NotAProgDirector]

The OP failed Step 1. The minimum pass is now 188, and at last adjustment was 185. A 183 is a fail.

In some ways, that's good news. The OP states that their medical condition got in the way of them doing their best. Now, they have a chance to prove that. Take it again, and do much better. If you take it again and get a 230, people will be willing to accept your explanation. Take it again and get a 192, and although that's a better score and passing, the main message you'll be sending is that your knowledge base is poor. Or that you're a poor test taker. Neither message is good.

But, to your actual question: Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you apply to a DO school. You do realize they will ask you if you've matriculated into any medical program as part of the application. You'd have to lie, and say no. If this is EVER discovered, at ANY time in your future, your career will end. Your medical school will withdraw your diploma even if you've already graduated. They will keep any tuition you paid them. You will no longer be a doctor. And, trust me, this will be discovered somewhere along the line. Forget about the ACGME/AOA merger -- perhaps that will make it easier to discover your lie, but you will get screwed if you do this, and only have yourself to blame.

You went to AUC, and think that perhaps you could have gotten into a DO program instead. Perhaps you're right. And, I agree that going to a DO program is a much better choice than going to most/all international schools. But what's done is done. This is not a decision you get a "do over" on. It's done. Live with it.

So, here's your plan:

1. Retake the USMLE. If you're really as good as you say you are, you'll be able to rock your retake. The added cost of retaking the USMLE is minimal to what you've already invested.
2. Continue at AUC. Finish your clinicals. No more LOA's.
3. Try to do some away rotations at good US programs. Many MD schools allow you to do this, but charge you tuition. SOunds like you have parents that are willing to continue to invest in your education. Great, so cost won't be an option. Make it happen.

The longer you wait, the harder the process will get. So, either get your MD career in gear, or choose another career.

Also, MD/DO without residency = nothing. All this talk of being a "consultant" is mostly a pipe dream. Do you really think that some pharmaceutical company is going to hire you if you've done poorly enough in medical school to not get a residency? That's not the way it works. Top performers in US schools can get consultant gigs at McKesson and other big firms, and those can be great careers. But not from an international school, and not from a DO school.

Sorry if this comes across as mean. I'm trying to be honest and direct.

 

[deadman]

OP stop lying. This is only going to get you into more trouble in the future. Imagine getting caught, is it worth risking another few hundred thousand dollars?


And maybe its time you make your own decisions rather than your parents telling you what should and shouldn't be beside your name.

 

[game24]

OP stop lying. This is only going to get you into more trouble in the future. Imagine getting caught, is it worth risking another few hundred thousand dollars?


And maybe its time you make your own decisions rather than your parents telling you what should and shouldn't be beside your name.

I haven't lied about anything yet. I probably won't take the gamble. I'll just do pharmacy
then work for a while and revisit the DO thing maybe in 10 years.

 

[user3]

I haven't lied about anything yet. I probably won't take the gamble. I'll just do pharmacy
then work for a while and revisit the DO thing maybe in 10 years.

Why pharmacy? The job market is terrible for pharmacists these days.

 

[S3S4]

Why pharmacy? The job market is terrible for pharmacists these days.

Umm what? Hope this was sarcasm

 

[SpecterGT260]

Umm what? Hope this was sarcasm

No. Their market is saturated. Go over to the pharmacy forums and you will see real pharmacists struggling to find jobs and tons of students and pre+pharm kids telling them why it isn't actually so.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[DocEspana]

No. Their market is saturated. Go over to the pharmacy forums and you will see real pharmacists struggling to find jobs and tons of students and pre+pharm kids telling them why it isn't actually so.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

This guys right. And i don't have to direct you to a forum here. I know a crap ton of pharm students who went to big name programs and are struggling to get interviews for pharm residencies and many of them are settling for rite aid jobs. Again, from big name institutions.

 

[game24]

comment removed.

 

[S3S4]

No. Their market is saturated. Go over to the pharmacy forums and you will see real pharmacists struggling to find jobs and tons of students and pre+pharm kids telling them why it isn't actually so.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

I have 3 pharmacists in my family, and my S/o is a retail pharmacist, so I am only speaking from what they have told me and what I have experienced in them finding jobs, but it has not been difficult at all for my s/o or any of her friends find a job in retail. I do not know about residency spots so I can't speak in that sense, but in my part of the country (southeast) i don't think you will find people say they are struggling to find a retail pharmacy job.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I have 3 pharmacists in my family, and my S/o is a retail pharmacist, so I am only speaking from what they have told me and what I have experienced in them finding jobs, but it has not been difficult at all for my s/o or any of her friends find a job in retail. I do not know about residency spots so I can't speak in that sense, but in my part of the country (southeast) i don't think you will find people say they are struggling to find a retail pharmacy job.

that's kinda like saying that bc you know people who got into med school that med admissions isn't saturated.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[S3S4]

that's kinda like saying that bc you know people who got into med school that med admissions isn't saturated.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

No, its not like saying that at all. It's saying that my s/o and her many friends from a small pharmacy school have no trouble getting retail pharmacy jobs. If the market was saturated, this would not be the case. "Saturated" implies that all spots are occupied. Pharmacies in my area have even given pharmacy manager positions to many people I know because they don't have people to fill the spots, and these are people coming right out of school

 

[SpecterGT260]

No, its not like saying that at all. It's saying that my s/o and her many friends from a small pharmacy school have no trouble getting retail pharmacy jobs. If the market was saturated, this would not be the case. "Saturated" implies that all spots are occupied. Pharmacies in my area have even given pharmacy manager positions to many people I know because they don't have people to fill the spots, and these are people coming right out of school

Okie dokie 👍

Better send that to Nature. I hear they are taking anecdotes now.

It is exactly like saying that. You aren't accounting for all of those who don't find jobs due to being unaware of them and you are considering the unique aspects of the situation around you to be the norm. My analogy is spot on.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[S3S4]

Okie dokie 👍

Better send that to Nature. I hear they are taking anecdotes now.

It is exactly like saying that. You aren't accounting for all of those who don't find jobs due to being unaware of them and you are considering the unique aspects of the situation around you to be the norm. My analogy is spot on.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

Dude you must not be following. I already clarified that I was talking about what was going on in my region of the country, so of course it's the norm around me.

Being unaware of jobs? By reason, this is completely opposite of your point that the market is truly saturated.

Your analogy is an extrapolation to say the least. You were comparing med school admissions with an objective number of pharmacy jobs. Since there are openings and unfilled positions in retail pharmacy, this is not the same as medical admissions which almost always fill their spots at a specified time. There is a difference. I'm not sure why you're trying to argue this so much. Unless you have direct experience with this, I can't help but think you just like an internet argument.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Dude you must not be following. I already clarified that I was talking about what was going on in my region of the country, so of course it's the norm around me.

Being unaware of jobs? By reason, this is completely opposite of your point that the market is truly saturated.

Your analogy is an extrapolation to say the least. You were comparing med school admissions with an objective number of pharmacy jobs. Since there are openings and unfilled positions in retail pharmacy, this is not the same as medical admissions which almost always fill their spots at a specified time. There is a difference. I'm not sure why you're trying to argue this so much. Unless you have direct experience with this, I can't help but think you just like an internet argument.

Nah. If this were true you wouldn't have hoped his post was sarcasm. Maybe we've landed here now, but it isn't me that isn't following. 👍

P.s. look up the definition of analogy. You seem to be expecting a literal report rather than a similar situation used for rhetorical purpose.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile