DOs what Total debt are you graduating in 2013 with?

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Total Education Debt (undergrad + med school + interest)

  • <50k

    Votes: 10 10.8%

  • <150k

    Votes: 5 5.4%

  • 150-200k

    Votes: 7 7.5%

  • 200-250k

    Votes: 12 12.9%

  • 250-300k

    Votes: 18 19.4%

  • 300-350k

    Votes: 19 20.4%

  • 350-400k

    Votes: 11 11.8%

  • >400k

    Votes: 11 11.8%
  • Total voters
    93
  • Poll closed .
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thepoopologist said:
If you enter a DO school with more than a $45,000/year tuition you are insane because that tuition will be much higher when you finish after 4 years (5 years for some poor bastards). It makes me wonder how a school like LECOM keeps costs down.

I do enjoy being called Dr. Poopy at work, however given the choice again I'd travel back in time and slap myself silly for even thinking about doing this. It takes utter commitment and there is no waxing and waning with this.

My loans generate about $2,000 in interest a month off $370,000 total. Even though I am supposedly on my way to making the big bucks there's no certainty with any of it. People drop like flies all the way through.
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This is truth. No doubt. It's a long, treacherous, rough road. Many at my school had to repeat a whole year. You just try to survive the traps I guess.
 
Most schools should have a 4 year graduation rate of ~95%.
 
Textbookversion said:
You just don't get it. Even at the cheapest schools, once you add in living expenses and start compounding interest it adds up fast. You can't just take cost of attendance and multiply by 4.

If you only borrow 50k in tuition and living expenses the first year (very very cheap school) that turns into 67k by the end of your 4 years. Compound interest adds up quickly.

I'd be willing to bet 300k is actually below average for MD c/o 2016 (let alone DO c/o 2016), for those taking out loans to fund their education and not using savings or outside sources of funding.

Also, all of this is pointless, because medicine is still a great gig. For example, that guy going into ortho. Not unusual to pull 400-600k a couple years out of fellowship... I think he'll be able to make his loan payments.
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This. I hurt for my classmates that went into primary care. I could not do it even if I wanted to based on financial logic.

I took out 268. It has grown to 310, but now back to 300 thanks to moonlighting.

I just signed a contract.

Out of fellowship, my base is 475k + 60k for call. I HOPE to pay my loans off in three years. I have all government loans. Some at 6.8, others at 8.5%!!!!!

Please don't forget to account for taxes. I plan on losing about 50% which brings me to about 20k/month. My wife is a doctor as well and has no loans (well, she does but her hospital is paying hers)

Mr. Obama has asked that the top 1% "pay just a little bit more" Ill give you an example of what im already paying. I got 75k of a 100k bonus last week. They took 29700 in taxes. Unbelievable. I almost threw up.
 
Buckeye(OH) said:
This. I hurt for my classmates that went into primary care. I could not do it even if I wanted to based on financial logic.

I took out 268. It has grown to 310, but now back to 300 thanks to moonlighting.

I just signed a contract.

Out of fellowship, my base is 475k + 60k for call. I HOPE to pay my loans off in three years. I have all government loans. Some at 6.8, others at 8.5%!!!!!

Please don't forget to account for taxes. I plan on losing about 50% which brings me to about 20k/month. My wife is a doctor as well and has no loans (well, she does but her hospital is paying hers)

Mr. Obama has asked that the top 1% "pay just a little bit more" Ill give you an example of what im already paying. I got 75k of a 100k bonus last week. They took 29700 in taxes. Unbelievable. I almost threw up.
Click to expand...

Spine?
 
Buckeye(OH) said:
This. I hurt for my classmates that went into primary care. I could not do it even if I wanted to based on financial logic.

I took out 268. It has grown to 310, but now back to 300 thanks to moonlighting.

I just signed a contract.

Out of fellowship, my base is 475k + 60k for call. I HOPE to pay my loans off in three years. I have all government loans. Some at 6.8, others at 8.5%!!!!!

Please don't forget to account for taxes. I plan on losing about 50% which brings me to about 20k/month. My wife is a doctor as well and has no loans (well, she does but her hospital is paying hers)

Mr. Obama has asked that the top 1% "pay just a little bit more" Ill give you an example of what im already paying. I got 75k of a 100k bonus last week. They took 29700 in taxes. Unbelievable. I almost threw up.
Click to expand...
I must admit I'm a bit jealous. But, continuing my pipedream of IBR and PSLF, I'll be ok. I have a huge debt load (that I don't want to think about). With IBR, as an attending, I estimated my payments to be about half of what they'd be on a standard 10y repayment plan. Its doable, but I'll probably have to talk myself down off the bridge if IBR/PSLF/etc. falls through.
 
Bacchus said:
I must admit I'm a bit jealous. But, continuing my pipedream of IBR and PSLF, I'll be ok. I have a huge debt load (that I don't want to think about). With IBR, as an attending, I estimated my payments to be about half of what they'd be on a standard 10y repayment plan. Its doable, but I'll probably have to talk myself down off the bridge if IBR/PSLF/etc. falls through.
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Is there a high risk that it will fall through? So many people would be screwed with 300k + loans....highly unfair if you attend a non state supported school.
 
Dr Dazzle said:
Is there a high risk that it will fall through? So many people would be screwed with 300k + loans....highly unfair if you attend a non state supported school.
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I'd like to be faithful it will be there, but there have been some real shenanigans lately with the gov'ment.
 
Buckeye(OH) said:
This. I hurt for my classmates that went into primary care. I could not do it even if I wanted to based on financial logic.

I took out 268. It has grown to 310, but now back to 300 thanks to moonlighting.

I just signed a contract.

Out of fellowship, my base is 475k + 60k for call. I HOPE to pay my loans off in three years. I have all government loans. Some at 6.8, others at 8.5%!!!!!

Please don't forget to account for taxes. I plan on losing about 50% which brings me to about 20k/month. My wife is a doctor as well and has no loans (well, she does but her hospital is paying hers)

Mr. Obama has asked that the top 1% "pay just a little bit more" Ill give you an example of what im already paying. I got 75k of a 100k bonus last week. They took 29700 in taxes. Unbelievable. I almost threw up.
Click to expand...

What specialty?
 
Mehd School said:
I'm just a lowly premed in the early stages of my application cycle,

but holy ****. Every pre-med should read this. Total wakeup call. As someone interested in primary care and applying to schools mostly in the $40k+/year range, the HPSP emails getting shoved down my throat are looking better and better.
Click to expand...

Those HPSP emails are ****ing annoying. I've opted out (unsubscribed) from them like 3 times now and they keep coming back.
 
Mehd School said:
I'm just a lowly premed in the early stages of my application cycle,

but holy ****. Every pre-med should read this. Total wakeup call. As someone interested in primary care and applying to schools mostly in the $40k+/year range, the HPSP emails getting shoved down my throat are looking better and better.
Click to expand...

Unless you end up doing part-time pediatric care or something, the HPSP is a net loss. Military pay isn't close to what the private sector pays, so you are trading some debt today for massive loss of income down the line.

The best advice still remains to plow through your training as fast as possible and pay down your loans as fast as possible. Every program is pretty much a net loss unless you tailor your life around it (eg, you already wanted to do primary care in a rural setting, so taking advantage of the program that helps pay your debt makes sense then). For the average graduate, specializing in something lucrative is the best financial decision you can make.
 
Igor4sugry said:
[1] The next thing to look at is how much your loan will grow during residency.
Example of above with 336k graduating in 2013 & 5yr residency.
calculator: http://www.calculator.net/interest-calculator.html
You have a family, doing IBR with a very small payment.

Loan of $336k at 6.8% will generate interest of: $22,848/yr
-The small monthly payments you can afford towards interest will be negligible.
Just to pay 30% of that interest you will need to pay $571/mo (that is a lot of money with a family).
After 5yr residency total interest: $114,240.00

Total Loan balance at end of residency: $450,240.00

Going for PSLF is good, but you never know what job options will be at graduation time.


[2] This brings me to next point. Current osteopathic students are graduating with the largest debt. This poll shows about 43% graduating with >300k.
Yet osteopathic schools keep pushing for students to go into primary care, the lowest paid field. There is a growing disconnect (as always in academia vs marketplace) of what is told to students and what the reality is.
Current numbers (and tuition increase trends) suggest that the point where going into primary care is not a financially sound decision is very close or already here.

Of course, this information is not relayed to medical students. Counseling on minimizing and repaying student loans is done during last week of medical school. This is something that should be done during first year of medical school, not when the train has left the station.

The reality of high loan amounts and 6.8% interest debt has to be looked at by students with a rational mind. Decide how you want your next 20yrs out of medical school to be.

[3] Another example:
Case-1: student graduating with 300k (6.8%) (43% of this poll is >300k)
Residency 3yrs: Loan balance at end of residency: $365k
10YR repayment schedule: $4,096.00/mo
*lets say you are choosing to stay in a larger city (for many reasons e.g. family, friends, more fun), and can't find a PSLF job as there are many docs in these areas.
-Starting salary $160k ->monthly pay with 30% tax rate is $9,333/mo
Monthly Salary - monthly loan payment = $5,237/mo = ~85k/yr salary

Case-2: student graduating with 400k (6.8%) (43% of this poll is >300k)
Balance at end of residency: $487k
10YR repayment schedule: $5,604.00/mo
-Staring salary $160k ->monthly pay $9,333/mo
Monthly Salary - monthly loan payment = $3,729.00 = ~60k/yr salary

Most residents make more than in Case-1 & Case-2 with moonlighting.
Click to expand...

Even though it won't make a huge difference and it's beside your main point, I have a personal pet peeve when people assume "30% tax bracket means you pay 30% of your income in taxes". A 30% tax bracket indicates you only pay 30% tax on all the money you make over the 28% tax bracket income value. The tax rate continues to decrease on a per dollar basis until you reach the lowest tax bracket and all your income has been taxed.

Total tax rate is different, and it's very possible to approach 50% effective total tax rate, but things such as property, state, and school taxes are too variable to really include in any sort of vague hypothetical situation.
 
Last edited:
F1rstGen said:
Even though it won't make a huge difference and it's beside your main point, I have a personal pet peeve when people assume "30% tax bracket means you pay 30% of your income in taxes". A 30% tax bracket indicates you only pay 30% tax on all the money you make over the 28% tax bracket income value. The tax rate continues to decrease on a per dollar basis until you reach the lowest tax bracket and all your income has been taxed.
Click to expand...

OK, I wanted to check your claim. I used www.paycheckcity.com. Entered 160k yearly salary, monthly pay period, single, Cleveland clinic as address.
Turns out after all taxes (federal, city, etc) monthly pay is $8,333.36. That is $1,000 less than my estimate with 30% tax rate. So yes, tax brackets work the way you describe. But there are many other things taken out of the paycheck.
 
notbobtrustme said:
Unless you end up doing part-time pediatric care or something, the HPSP is a net loss. Military pay isn't close to what the private sector pays, so you are trading some debt today for massive loss of income down the line.

The best advice still remains to plow through your training as fast as possible and pay down your loans as fast as possible. Every program is pretty much a net loss unless you tailor your life around it (eg, you already wanted to do primary care in a rural setting, so taking advantage of the program that helps pay your debt makes sense then). For the average graduate, specializing in something lucrative is the best financial decision you can make.
Click to expand...

One thing that people don't seem to bring up that much with military pay is the pension. If we're discussing a private doc vs military doc who both retire at 65-70 and live another 20 years it can make a huge difference.
 
Hey you guys,

Questions coming your way:

1) So what I "think" I'm hearing is that family care specialty when looked at from a debt perspective is a loss? A lot of the people that I have talked to though, say that there aren't enough family care docs though and that getting residency is much easier. Thoughts on this? Clarification would be great!

2) Also, I was thinking about living expenses especially as a D.O student . .. . do you guys take out loans for "everything"( ex: housing, commuting, books, tuition etc)? Is there a way around it? Scholarships? Special fellowship programs? I was thinking about the federal work study program . . .. does anyone have experience with this?

3) Are there costs in medical school that are unexpected? For example, I know like in my undergrad class, we had to pay for minuscule things like clickers and software which weren't told to us until the first day of class. I know it depends upon the school . . .but I want to be prepared as much as possible .

Your insight would be great!
 
Jay2910 said:
Hey you guys,

Questions coming your way:

1) So what I "think" I'm hearing is that family care specialty when looked at from a debt perspective is a loss? A lot of the people that I have talked to though, say that there aren't enough family care docs though and that getting residency is much easier. Thoughts on this? Clarification would be great!

2) Also, I was thinking about living expenses especially as a D.O student . .. . do you guys take out loans for "everything"( ex: housing, commuting, books, tuition etc)? Is there a way around it? Scholarships? Special fellowship programs? I was thinking about the federal work study program . . .. does anyone have experience with this?

3) Are there costs in medical school that are unexpected? For example, I know like in my undergrad class, we had to pay for minuscule things like clickers and software which weren't told to us until the first day of class. I know it depends upon the school . . .but I want to be prepared as much as possible .

Your insight would be great!
Click to expand...


1) There is a shortage of family practice docs. FP residencies tend to be easy to get into. There are repayment options for primary care providers such as the ten year forgiveness (if it lasts that long)
2) Yea you need to pay for everything, There are scholarships for a grand here or there you can apply to. The military is another option, They pay for pretty much everything, but you owe them several years post graduation.
3) Boards exams are a few thousand dollars all together. Interview traveling for residency costs. applications for residencies cost a lot of money as well
 
NYEMMED said:
1) There is a shortage of family practice docs. FP residencies tend to be easy to get into. There are repayment options for primary care providers such as the ten year forgiveness (if it lasts that long)
2) Yea you need to pay for everything, There are scholarships for a grand here or there you can apply to. The military is another option, They pay for pretty much everything, but you owe them several years post graduation.
3) Boards exams are a few thousand dollars all together. Interview traveling for residency costs. applications for residencies cost a lot of money as well
Click to expand...

So if you are graduating with 300k, Family med is still okay? Wouldn't you be paying more than half your salary per month in loans, if you are making like $150k a year?
 
Dr Dazzle said:
So if you are graduating with 300k, Family med is still okay? Wouldn't you be paying more than half your salary per month in loans, if you are making like $150k a year?
Click to expand...
if you work for a not for profit hospital for 10 years (residency counts towards this) and you never miss a payment for those ten years than whatever is left after ten years will be forgiven. Family med and Peds are 2 of the lowest paid in medicine but if you like it, or thats what you matched into you have to adjust to it.
 
NYEMMED said:
if you work for a not for profit hospital for 10 years (residency counts towards this) and you never miss a payment for those ten years than whatever is left after ten years will be forgiven. Family med and Peds are 2 of the lowest paid in medicine but if you like it, or thats what you matched into you have to adjust to it.
Click to expand...

That's income based repayment right? So a highly payed specialist will be paying more for 4 or so years after their residency/fellowship than a family doc who got out after 3 years? Still quite a gap. Are all residencies in not for profit hospitals? Or are ones that are...harder to match into cause of their help with loan repayment?
 
Dr Dazzle said:
So if you are graduating with 300k, Family med is still okay? Wouldn't you be paying more than half your salary per month in loans, if you are making like $150k a year?
Click to expand...
With the PAYE (Pay As You Earn) system, you pay at most 10% of your discretionary income (which is income above $40,000, give or take). So no, nobody who takes out federal loans is going to be "paying half of their salary per month" in loan payments. If your income is $160,000, you'd be paying roughly $1,000 a month or $12,000 a year.
 
sazerac said:
With the PAYE (Pay As You Earn) system, you pay at most 10% of your discretionary income (which is income above $40,000, give or take). So no, nobody who takes out federal loans is going to be "paying half of their salary per month" in loan payments. If your income is $160,000, you'd be paying roughly $1,000 a month or $12,000 a year.
Click to expand...

Does PAYE apply to all residents in the US who took out federal loans? So what is the negative of taking the max loans that the school offers? Especially if you will pay them off in 10 years, and will be limited to 10% of your annual income.
 
Dr Dazzle said:
Does PAYE apply to all residents in the US who took out federal loans? So what is the negative of taking the max loans that the school offers? Especially if you will pay them off in 10 years, and will be limited to 10% of your annual income.
Click to expand...

PAYE is a 20-year repayment plan. The 10-year plan mentioned above is PSLF.

Although it is highly unlikely that the government will do away with PAYE, it is recommended to keep your loans to the minimum just in case.
 
Dr Dazzle said:
So if you are graduating with 300k, Family med is still okay? Wouldn't you be paying more than half your salary per month in loans, if you are making like $150k a year?
Click to expand...
If you are making $150K/yr as FP you are doing it wrong, made poor choices, and need to quit to find a better paying job. That number is just ridiculous.
 
 
cabinbuilder said:
If you are making $150K/yr as FP you are doing it wrong, made poor choices, and need to quit to find a better paying job. That number is just ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Yeah, what do you mean? I think this is a good approximation for what a family doc could make potentially. Unless you supplement with work in other places.
 
NurWollen said:
What would you say is a more reasonable number?
Click to expand...
180K should be your minimum number. When you are in the position where you are looking for a job just know that all numbers are negotiable and the employer is going to offer the lowest number they think they can get you to take.
 
cabinbuilder said:
Potentially?????? OMG, I make $150K in 7 months. Do your research before you sign.
Click to expand...

150k is the number everyone seems to use on sdn for FM, If they spent 20 mins in the family med forum they would realize as you said, numbers are a lot higher than that especially if you are flexible with location.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
 
This just came over my email now: Reality check for family practice. $150K is a slap in the face. It's dinner and a movie.
Texas Family Medicine - $350,000+ Employed and up to $520,000 Student Loan Repayment


Let me show you how you can make a lot of money (no state income tax!) and get your student loans paid off for you ($160K over the first 4 years, then $120K over the next 4 years, then $20K per year thereafter). Located just over 2 hours from Dallas/Fort Worth and a short drive from Abilene, you can have the best of both worlds: a safe family-friendly community and close proximity to metro amenities!

  • $350,000+ and NO STATE INCOME TAX?Earn at the top in your field!
  • Turnkey practice: efficiently run and incredibly profitable
  • Clinic located 10 steps from hospital; MRI access and CT
  • No weekends, no OB, and lots of free time
  • Student Loan Repayment through the state and NHSC!!!

Live the life you've always wanted. No traffic jams, no long lines, no crime - just friendly people and a real sense of community. With Abilene just a short drive away - and Dallas/Fort Worth and Lubbock each a couple hours away - you'll have access to international airports, professional sports, museums and so much more!

  • Build your dream home on acreage or stay close to town
  • Abilene, TX: Metro of 160K people with great shopping and amenities
  • Save for retirement - Cost of living 22% below national average
  • Enjoy hunting, fishing, rodeos, biking, golfing, and more
  • Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex: Population of 6.5 million just 2 hours down the road
 
Well that's the flip-side
cabinbuilder said:
This just came over my email now: Reality check for family practice. $150K is a slap in the face. It's dinner and a movie.
Texas Family Medicine - $350,000+ Employed and up to $520,000 Student Loan Repayment


Let me show you how you can make a lot of money (no state income tax!) and get your student loans paid off for you ($160K over the first 4 years, then $120K over the next 4 years, then $20K per year thereafter). Located just over 2 hours from Dallas/Fort Worth and a short drive from Abilene, you can have the best of both worlds: a safe family-friendly community and close proximity to metro amenities!

  • $350,000+ and NO STATE INCOME TAX?Earn at the top in your field!
  • Turnkey practice: efficiently run and incredibly profitable
  • Clinic located 10 steps from hospital; MRI access and CT
  • No weekends, no OB, and lots of free time
  • Student Loan Repayment through the state and NHSC!!!

Live the life you've always wanted. No traffic jams, no long lines, no crime - just friendly people and a real sense of community. With Abilene just a short drive away - and Dallas/Fort Worth and Lubbock each a couple hours away - you'll have access to international airports, professional sports, museums and so much more!

  • Build your dream home on acreage or stay close to town
  • Abilene, TX: Metro of 160K people with great shopping and amenities
  • Save for retirement - Cost of living 22% below national average
  • Enjoy hunting, fishing, rodeos, biking, golfing, and more
  • Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex: Population of 6.5 million just 2 hours down the road
Click to expand...

Well that's the flip-side to saturation: living in the middle of nowhere. It's "only" 3.5 hours to Dallas. Try convincing a spouse to live out in nowhere's-ville Texas.
 
cabinbuilder said:
4 years in the middle of nowhere (and I will say I have been to Abilene, which has plenty of shopping) to be debt free sure sounds great to me.
Click to expand...

I agree, if you are unattached. In that case, it's great.
 
cabinbuilder said:
I guess it depends on who you are married to. My husband did not question the need to move to where the money is and we have moved cross country 5 times.
Click to expand...

Yeah, see, that's the thing--you need a spouse who doesn't need to be near a major city AND who can move around all the time. Most people can't do that, and even if they can, they grow tired of not settling down, not buying a house, and not establishing roots somewhere. For the young and unattached, locums for a few years to make great coin is an excellent way to pay off debt but, for most, it's not a sustainable lifestyle, or it's just simply too irritating moving constantly that people won't want to do it for more than a couple of years, certainly not for a career.
 
Silent Cool said:
Yeah, see, that's the thing--you need a spouse who doesn't need to be near a major city AND who can move around all the time. Most people can't do that, and even if they can, they grow tired of not settling down, not buying a house, and not establishing roots somewhere. For the young and unattached, locums for a few years to make great coin is an excellent way to pay off debt but, for most, it's not a sustainable lifestyle, or it's just simply too irritating moving constantly that people won't want to do it for more than a couple of years, certainly not for a career.
Click to expand...
I have not moved for locums, I have moved for permanent jobs - none of which worked out or were hostile or were bankrupt. I have a stationary home ever since I have done locums. I travel for locums, my family doesn't
 
cabinbuilder said:
I have not moved for locums, I have moved for permanent jobs - none of which worked out or were hostile or were bankrupt. I have a stationary home ever since I have done locums. I travel for locums, my family doesn't
Click to expand...

How long is your typical locum assignment?
 
cabinbuilder said:
depends. Usually 2 month minimum. My longest was 9 months but I went back and forth for holidays, etc. I start my next job on Monday, its 3 hours away from my house so I will come home on the weekends.
Click to expand...

Not bad. I thought it was something like 4 days here, 2 weeks there, etc...
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
Not bad. I thought it was something like 4 days here, 2 weeks there, etc...
Click to expand...
No, it takes too long for credentialling for that short of assignment. Now sometimes just holiday coverage or vacation coverage is needed but if you are going through the hassle of travelling (I live in Oregon but work in OR, NV, TX, or AK) then I want to make it worth my time. My next job runs through end of Jan with option to extend.
 
group_theory said:
To add fuel (and more concrete facts) to the fire

Here's USNews Ranking of Medical School, based on "Average indebtedness of 2011 graduates who incurred medical school debt"

There's a lot of private DO schools towards the top of the ranking, along with a handful of private MD schools. Something to consider for applicants when picking med schools (yes, private schools dominate the top, public schools are on the bottom, and some schools with large endowment can offer more scholarships than poorer schools, plus it doesn't take into account the number of kids who don't borrow for med school (ie parents, independently wealthy before going switching fields, MSTP/NIH scholarships, military scholarships, etc)

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankings...ate-schools/top-medical-schools/debt-rankings
Click to expand...

That's crazy.

LECOM graduates have more debt then the vast majority of MD graduates. According to the list only 25 MD schools have more average debt.

On the flip side, the cheapest private medical schools: Mayo, WashU, Stanford, Harvard, Yale, and Duke.
 
alpinism said:
That's crazy.

LECOM graduates have more debt then the vast majority of MD graduates. According to the list only 25 MD schools have more average debt.

On the flip side, the cheapest private medical schools: Mayo, WashU, Stanford, Harvard, Yale, and Duke.
Click to expand...

Could it be cause a large number of their student have their parents for their schooling?
 
Silent Cool said:
Well that's the flip-side


Well that's the flip-side to saturation: living in the middle of nowhere. It's "only" 3.5 hours to Dallas. Try convincing a spouse to live out in nowhere's-ville Texas.
Click to expand...

What planet is this? Abilene is NOT the middle of nowhere. There are +100,000 people there. I'm so sick and tired of SDNers thinking that America minus LA and NYC is rural. Such a narrow point of view. I went to undergrad in a town of 30,000 two hours from Yellowstone and that isn't even rural.
 
NurWollen said:
What planet is this? Abilene is NOT the middle of nowhere. There are +100,000 people there. I'm so sick and tired of SDNers thinking that America minus LA and NYC is rural. Such a narrow point of view. I went to undergrad in a town of 30,000 two hours from Yellowstone and that isn't even rural.
Click to expand...
Absolutely!!!! I get the feeling that most on SDN have never left their bubble. I agree, Abilene is a very large city.
 
NurWollen said:
What planet is this? Abilene is NOT the middle of nowhere. There are +100,000 people there. I'm so sick and tired of SDNers thinking that America minus LA and NYC is rural. Such a narrow point of view. I went to undergrad in a town of 30,000 two hours from Yellowstone and that isn't even rural.
Click to expand...

I am well aware that life exists outside of LA. I'm simply saying that small-town living isn't for everyone and especially for those whose spouses need to be in a big city for their careers. I am currently living in a city of 100K+, but the city is in such desperate financial straits that it feels like ghetto-ass nowheresville. YMMV.
 
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