DOs what Total debt are you graduating in 2015 with?

[Igor4sugry]

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Time for the annual debt pole.

2014 results: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/dos-what-total-debt-are-you-graduating-in-2014-with.1069168/
2013 results: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/dos-what-total-debt-are-you-graduating-in-2013-with.1005475/
2012 results: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/graduating-ms4s-what-is-your-total-education-dept.913371/

For all you MS4s, what education debt load are you carrying into your residency?
This is Total Education Debt: (undergrad + med school + interest)

 

[abolt18]

Not participating in the survey because I'm class of 2017, but for me it'll be mid 300's.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Can't wait till I participate in the class of 2018 survey, but make sure to include "500-550k"

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

How are you calculating interest?

 

[kenjixshadow]

How are you calculating interest?

Use the AAMC calculator. Put in the amount and it'll calculate for you.
https://www.aamc.org/services/first/medloans/

 

[Postictal Raiden]

How are you calculating interest?

One quick way to approximate the interests is by figuring out how much interests you accrue per year then multiply that number by ten. The reason you multiply by ten is because you pay 4 years of interests on loans you borrow during first year, 3 years on those you take out during second year, 2 on third year loans, and 1 on fourth year loans.

Example. You take out 80k a year at 7% will cost you 5600 of interests times 10. Therefore, the total interests on the 320k principle at the end of 4 years is roughly 56k. Total debt 376k.

Now, it gets a little more complicated once you factor in the fact that federal loans and the amount you borrow change from one year to another. In that case you may want to use the calculator the OP provided,

 

[EarthToDoc]

Hope this doesn't make anyone make feel bad. To avoid getting loans most of family are giving up some of their savings for me to go to medical school. The number really doesn't sink in, last week I got a bill for 26k for fall 2015. I have never seen such a large number on any bill in my life. I am assuming 4 years will go by fast and that 45k might be better going to the family than to loans (which I figured would be about $6k interest every 6 months).

I get the feeling that in the near future that the government might put a cap on tuition or loans or something might happen to stop the ridiculous growth. The growth has to stabilize or fall at some point.

 

[Mad Jack]

Jelly of anyone under 300

 

[Bill Brasky]

I'll almost certainly top 350k all told, including interest through residency. Probably closer to 400. At least it's good to know you're all sinking to the bottom alongside me.

 

[Hyde]

I get the feeling that in the near future that the government might put a cap on tuition or loans or something might happen to stop the ridiculous growth. The growth has to stabilize or fall at some point.

It's meddling by the Federal Gov't that has made med school education so expensive. For example, making loans so readily available has indirectly ( or directly depending on your level of cynicism) "incentivized" med schools to raise their tuitions. The less meddling by the feds, the better imho. The feds are making a ton of $ on interest they are charging us. And med school students pose little risk of defaults. Win-win.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Most DO schools have a calculated COA of at least 80k. This would put the borrower 380k in the hole by the end of med school.

Assuming a 6.8% rate, the accrue interests every year on this debt would be 26k. Also, assuming that this borrower participates in IBR/PAYE, paying only ~2-3k/year, this would leave ~23k of unpaid interests for each year of residency. Let's say this person wants to do a 3-year long residency, the total debt by the end of residency is going to be 450k.

For the sake of discussion, let's say this borrower wants to become a cardiothoracic surgeon, he/she will have a debt totaling 560k at the end of the 8-year long training.

This shows that without even having prior debts, anyone who attends a DO school (or a private MD school) and relies solely on loans will owe half a million dollars +/- 100k by the time he/she finishes training.

 

[user3]

It's meddling by the Federal Gov't that has made med school education so expensive. For example, making loans so readily available has indirectly ( or directly depending on your level of cynicism) "incentivized" med schools to raise their tuitions. The less meddling by the feds, the better imho. The feds are making a ton of $ on interest they are charging us. And med school students pose little risk of defaults. Win-win.

There is little risk of default because of availability of income based repayment plans...

There is also a loophole that allows borrowers to indefinitely defer repayment just by staying enrolled in 6 credits/semester of classes at any college. Degree seeking or non.

 

[Bea5T]

Most DO schools have a calculated COA of at least 80k. This would put the borrower 380k in the hole by the end of med school.

Assuming a 6.8% rate, the accrue interests every year on this debt would be 26k. Also, assuming that this borrower participates in IBR/PAYE, paying only ~2-3k/year, this would leave ~23k of unpaid interests for each year of residency. Let's say this person wants to do a 3-year long residency, the total debt by the end of residency is going to be 450k.

For the sake of discussion, let's say this borrower wants to become a cardiothoracic surgeon, he/she will have a debt totaling 560k at the end of the 8-year long training.

This shows that without even having prior debts, anyone who attends a DO school (or a private MD school) and relies solely on loans will owe half a million dollars +/- 100k by the time he/she finishes training.

OOS MD state schools average around 50k tuition aswell

Downstate for example is 60k

 

[Postictal Raiden]

OOS MD state schools average around 50k tuition aswell

Downstate for example is 60k

There you go. That's why I think all these indebtedness surveys that show average debt of 200k are severely skewed by the fortunate minority that receives scholarships and/or parental support.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

There is little risk of default because of availability of income based repayment plans...

There is also a loophole that allows borrowers to indefinitely defer repayment just by staying enrolled in 6 credits/semester of classes at any college. Degree seeking or non.

Exactly. Unless the govt does away with such programs (very very unlikely), the amount of indebtedness has become irrelevant.

 

[kenjixshadow]

I get the feeling that in the near future that the government might put a cap on tuition or loans or something might happen to stop the ridiculous growth. The growth has to stabilize or fall at some point.

Why would they do that? They're making tons of money off from medical students and know that we will unlikely default our student loans b.c. of IBR, PAYE, and more. Refer to the above posts, the government will most likely make off 100k+ of interest off per DO student. There are 6,786 DO students matriculated in 2014. Say with 6000 students x $100,000 (payback interests) = 600 million in class of 2018 alone!!! We, both DO & MD students, are literally the best investment they have. You would be naive to think that they would do something to help us and not something benefits them.

 

[NurWollen]

There is little risk of default because of availability of income based repayment plans...

There is also a loophole that allows borrowers to indefinitely defer repayment just by staying enrolled in 6 credits/semester of classes at any college. Degree seeking or non.

Too bad subsidized federal loans aren't an option for med students.

 

[iamADIPOSE]

240k! But that's if I take out the max amount of loans..haven't graduated yet lol

 

[hallowmann]

There you go. That's why I think all these indebtedness surveys that show average debt of 200k are severely skewed by the fortunate minority that receives scholarships and/or parental support.

Its not just that, even 4 years ago tuition was significantly less and subsidized loans actually existed for medical students. We're at the point now where 90% of med students take out loans. Short of millionaire parents, I don't know many people that can take a $80k+ hit annually.

With many schools increasing their tuition every year by 4-8%, I doubt it'll take very long before average indebtedness reaches the $250-$300k range.

 

[user3]

Its not just that, even 4 years ago tuition was significantly less and subsidized loans actually existed for medical students. We're at the point now where 90% of med students take out loans. Short of millionaire parents, I don't know many people that can take a $80k+ hit annually.

With many schools increasing their tuition every year by 4-8%, I doubt it'll take very long before average indebtedness reaches the $250-$300k range.

Fwiw, 14/22 responses are above 300k in the poll

 

[xBODOMx]

.

 

[user3]

The average is easily skewed by people who have their school paid for completely or most by parents. Then the rest that take out near max loans. I doubt there is barely any in the middle. Most likely a polarizing situation.

https://www.aamc.org/download/152968/data/debtfactcard.pdf

even for private MD schools, the class of 2014 median was 200k, and only 15% were above 300k. Despite the median private MD tuition/fees being over 53k.

 

[abolt18]

The average is easily skewed by people who have their school paid for completely or most by parents. Then the rest that take out near max loans. I doubt there is barely any in the middle. Most likely a polarizing situation.

Also, don't forget all the military folks doing HPSP. My class had a good amount that would certainly drag our average debt down a lot.

 

[Bea5T]

https://www.aamc.org/download/152968/data/debtfactcard.pdf

even for private MD schools, the class of 2014 median was 200k, and only 15% were above 300k. Despite the median private MD tuition/fees being over 53k.

With COA included it's 300k

 

[Bacchus]

My 10-year repayment plan monthly payment is more than I get paid monthly as a resident :x. That said, I'm doing IBR (and hopefully PSLF as long as it remains in the black) and my monthly payment is about $500. Which... is no where near the amount of interest I accrue monthly. "Peeing into the ocean" is a good metaphor... given the ocean is rising about as quickly as my interest with the whole global warming thing 😉.

 

[hallowmann]

Fwiw, 14/22 responses are above 300k in the poll

This might be true, but I'd think it's more likely that the people with the most projected debt will be the ones doing the poll. Assuming no undergrad debt, total debt at my school even with taking out the whole COA for 4 years won't reach $300k (it'll get close to it, but won't quite hit it). Granted my school is on the cheaper side, but there are still some cheap DO schools out there to slightly offset the $500k debt schools.

 

[xBODOMx]

.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

You'll probably still hit 350k with interest, but it's pretty much LECOM / OSU/OUHCOM or bust right now. Even with KCU/DMU/LMUDCOM/CUSOM etc in the 40s-45ks, you'll be over 300k debt. As for Touros/Midwesterns. . .yikes.

It all depends though. If you are living with someone else who is working and dont have to take out the maximum you won't be over 300.

 

[hallowmann]

You'll probably still hit 350k with interest, but it's pretty much LECOM / OSU/OUHCOM or bust right now. Even with KCU/DMU/LMUDCOM/CUSOM etc in the 40s-45ks, you'll be over 300k debt. As for Touros/Midwesterns. . .yikes.

Well hopefully I won't because I had some savings from my previous job and my wife works, so I'm saving some. But I've calculated it out with interest and max COA for Class of 2017, and its ~$296k.

EDIT: Just so its clear, even with LECOM, future classes will likely be breaking $300k as tuition seems to increase ~1.5% every year.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Those in my class who rely solely on loans to finance their education will graduate owing 410k. That's assuming they didn't have prior debts.

In less than a decade, I can totally see people graduating owing half a million being the norm if this trend continues.

Without these governmental repayment options I can't see how future medical grads can pay back their debt while maintaining above average financial status.

 

[user3]

Those in my class who rely solely on loans to finance their education will graduate owing 410k. That's assuming they didn't have prior debts.

In less than a decade, I can totally see people graduating owing half a million being the norm if this trend continues.

Without these governmental repayment options I can't see how future medical grads can pay back their debt while maintaining above average financial status.

schools should give entering students an estimate of what they will owe at graduation based on cost of attendance, interest, and tuition increases. Honestly though it is difficult to estimate this since schools refuse to give 4-yr tuition schedules not to mention interest rates now change every year...

 

[NurWollen]

I honestly think that while the mean indebtedness might still be at or below $250k, that number is brought down by military students, students with millionaire parents, etc. I would bet the mode is much higher.

 

[user3]

I honestly think that while the mean indebtedness might still be at or below $250k, that number is brought down by military students, students with millionaire parents, etc. I would bet the mode is much higher.

then why do only 15% of private MD grads (2014) have over 300k debt (median 200k) when private MD tuition is comparable to private DO? I don't think those factors are enough to explain 85% being below 300k...

 

[NurWollen]

then why do only 15% of private MD grads (2014) have over 300k debt (median 200k) when private MD tuition is comparable to private DO? I don't think those factors are enough to explain the other 85% being below that.

More scholarships at MD programs maybe? MD PhD programs? I really don't know those are just guesses. Interesting point you make.

 

[HuskyPride149]

So isnt PAYE and PSLF the best way to go? Understanding that most people will have 200k+ in loans. Isnt the best option to enroll in those 2 programs starting from residency all the way until 10 years later and you would only have to pay a portion of your debt while the rest is forgiven after 10 years ?

 

[67552931811]

So isnt PAYE and PSLF the best way to go? Understanding that most people will have 200k+ in loans. Isnt the best option to enroll in those 2 programs starting from residency all the way until 10 years later and you would only have to pay a portion of your debt while the rest is forgiven after 10 years ?

PSLF is so untenable it's unreal.

 

[HuskyPride149]

PSLF is so untenable it's unreal.

Can you please expand? Sorry I don;t know much about the program just what little I have read and heard from others.

 

[67552931811]

Can you please expand? Sorry I don;t know much about the program just what little I have read and heard from others.

How many 250-500K loans do you think the federal gov are gonna write off before some politician goes, "Geez, Al, this is a crap ton of money were writing off."

I'd be surprised if it lasts into 2018. If I'm wrong (and hopefully so) and that gravy train rolls then I'll gladly join the masses

 

[HuskyPride149]

How many 250-500K loans do you think the federal gov are gonna write off before some politician goes, "Geez, Al, this is a crap ton of money were writing off."

I'd be surprised if it lasts into 2018. If I'm wrong (and hopefully so) and that gravy train rolls then I'll gladly join the masses

Yeah that is true. I have heard that there is some talk of possibly creating a cap of how much debt that they will forgive. I hope it stays around until my time and I am just starting out in 3 weeks. Well looks like ill be joining the rest of you guys.

 

[67552931811]

Yeah that is true. I have heard that there is some talk of possibly creating a cap of how much debt that they will forgive. I hope it stays around until my time and I am just starting out in 3 weeks. Well looks like ill be joining the rest of you guys.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

My worst = live like a resident for 3-5 years as a wet ear attending and decimate my debt. For me, that's a glorious worse case scenario. YMMV

 

[PKA<0]

Can you please expand? Sorry I don;t know much about the program just what little I have read and heard from others.

Yeah, fugazi, fogazi. It's a wazi, it's a woozi. It's...fairy dust. It doesn't exist, it's never landed, it's no matter, it's not on the elemental charts. It's not ****ing real.

 

[MedBrah 19]

The biggest concern I have is either refinancing in residency at ~5% or enroll in PAYE with 20 year forgiveness.. I'm not even considering PSLF, too unstable and too big of a risk. The safest bet seems to be refinancing and living like a resident for 3-5 years as someone else mentioned. Problem is for some of us non-trads tacking on another 3-5 years after training is really taking a large chunk out of our lives leaving us with even less time to enjoy.

 

[MrChance2]

Does anyone know if grad plus loans are forgiven with that 10 year undeserved service thing?

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

And yet it's harder and harder to get into medical school every year, to the point that many docs that I have talked to have said something along the lines of "if I was applying now I would have never gotten in."

It's such a weird scenario.

 

[darklabel]

How many 250-500K loans do you think the federal gov are gonna write off before some politician goes, "Geez, Al, this is a crap ton of money were writing off."

I'd be surprised if it lasts into 2018. If I'm wrong (and hopefully so) and that gravy train rolls then I'll gladly join the masses

Well, my hope is to start PSLF before the government restricts it for us. I remember reading somewhere that the government can't just change the terms of repayment once you start on it since you can technically sue.