Double Standard

[carmstrong]

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I have noticed that there exists a double standard at times on this board. I love reading the posts here b/c they are always informative and compared to other boards extremely compassionate and patient. However, I have seen one type of attitude which bothers me a bit. This is a very PC board when it comes to dealing with DO's. Now I dont think that there is anything wrong with that b/c students and potential students are proud of who they are or whom they will become. There just seems to be a lack of patience by some of the members who post here is regard to those who are not familiar with DO's. For instance, there have been several instances where a person has made the comment "I guess I will just have to apply to DO school" or someone might suggest that a person with lower than average test scores "settle for a DO school." It is very understandable how this type of comment could ruffle the feathers of DO's and future DO's. However, for the most part I have seen the cause of this type of post to be more of a lack of information than an attack aimed at the DO philosophy. A newcomer who makes the mistake of saying they will settle for a DO school if no MD's pan out is going to get grilled. Instead of using this forum as a means of getting the message out about DO's, it is used to attack that person. Now about the double standard. It is obvious that we are all insulted when someone settles for a DO school b/c they could not get into an MD program, but we have no problem suggesting another field just b/c they are not qualified for DO school. Someone lists their stats and people feel that they will never get accepted they suggest nursing school, or pharmacy, etc. Now this seems like a perfectly acceptable suggestion to me except that it contradicts what we hate the most about the MD wannabee applicants. We would cruxify the person who jsut wants to go to MD school but cant get accepted so settles on a DO school which has lower test scores or GPA. Yet this is the very same thing we suggest people to do in other fields. I would think that wanting to be an MD, but going to DO school is a smaller jump (since they are both doctors) than going from doctor to nurse or PA. My only point to this, if there is one, is that we could possibly be a bit more patient with those not familiar with the DO way. Even MD wannabees who somehow slide by the admissions committee to get a seat at a DO school. Are they really that much different than the student who is attending his/her second or third choice school b/c the top of the list didnt accept them?

 

[mmaher]

Well, there is a simple solution to this problem in the future. We, too, must raise our standards in the future to keep these insincere people from sliding into these professions. Right now, we have some pretty low standards at some DO schools, and I know for a fact that people with some pretty low scores have been accepted to osteopathic schools. Just my two cents worth.

 

[mmaher]

You know what, scratch what I just wrote above. I didn't even read your whole post, and I answered something that really doesn't pertain to the point you were trying to make. I thought you were talking about something else. Sorry!

 

[tonydtgr]

carmstrong,
I wholeheartedly agree. DO's and DO-to-be's in this forum seem to be very defensive about this topic. They are so intolerant of any DO applicants who are even thinking of applying to MD, that they immediately jump on their throats.

 

[Future DOc]

Hey everyone,

The reason for the jump on "MD-wannabes" in my opinion is because the lack of knowledge & investigation.

I too get tired when I hear about pre-meds asking the ques, "should I just go to a DO school if I don't get into an MD school". If I ever met those people, I want to ask them if they have truly(I mean truly) investigated all avenues of medicine before making the decision of beoming a doctor. Most people, I am sure, just say, "I just want to be a doctor" w/out even doing their part and seeing all avenues of medicine to see what's the right fit.

I must admit that before med school, all I knew was MDs(hey, I am from the islands), but after hearing about osteopathy, I did my part and shadowed/talked to DOs, attended osteopathy seminars, etc.. to learn more about it. I got accepted to both MD & DO(I applied to both because I was afraid I wouldn't get in anywhere& all I wanted to become was a doctor), but my heart was to become a DO(I guess I am a DO-wannabe). I love what they do & the kind of physicians they become. Plus, I look at DOs as MDs and then some because we get trained exactly like them plus more(OMM). I love how I am able to offer my patients all modalities of treatment. They will love you 20 folds for that!!

Overall, I don't mean to degrage anyone who wants people's opinions about "going to a DO school if I don't get accepted into an MD school. You all just have to wake up & realize that DOs & MDs are complete physicians, no matter what. The only difference is philosophy. A lot of DOs teach at the prestigous MD schools (ie. Yale, Georgetown, UC schools, etc..) and work anywhere that MDs can. The only thing that should matter in your mind is how great of a doctor I can become. Remember that there are awful MDs & DOs out there when it comes to patient-care.

In the long run, I personaly just want to become a valuable asset to society by giving back as a "great doctor", not whats after my name. Please take note of that to those people out there who are unsure about whether to become a DO or MD. Stop worrying about the prestige of the degree because thats the last thing your heart/mind should be when deciding to become a doctor. Just be happy you get to study medicine period!!!

Rob
WesternU/COMP Class of 2002

 

[Poet]

That was a nice reply Rob.. and I would like to add this comment.

At my last interview, as I was walking out of the room the doctor who interviewed me said "Im so happy to see someone who realizes this is a privilege" and I said to her "I feel very privileged to have been selected for an interview" However, this wasn't what she meant and she replied "I mean practicing as a PHYSICIAN is a privilege, and many people forget that." I looked at her, smiled, and walked out of the room.

I left with an incredible feeling beginning to welt up inside of me because at that point I KNEW someone had seen my passion. It does not matter what the letters are, what matters is how you feel about being in the SERVICE of MANKIND for the REST OF YOUR LIFE. Physician's ARE priveleged. They are privy to information that people would just as soon keep secret for the rest of their lives, information that is more embarrassing or scary than ANYTHING their patients have ever experienced in their lives, and information half the time the patient wishes they didn't know. They are respected despite their flaws and errors, and they are capable of saving lives. These are privileges.

It is a PRIVILEGE to be selected by ANY ADCOM committee as an accepted student, DO or MD and it is one's duty beyond that to work to become the best damn physician they are capable of growing into.

When you see death frequently, and watch as the lives of hundreds dissipates slowly in front you, you realize what becomes important. Not your letters, not what school you went to, but the impact you have on those peoples' lives in their most vulnerable moment.

<whew> nuff said

poet



[This message has been edited by Poet (edited 01-05-2000).]

 

[drusso]

I am a person who strongly advocates that premeds considering the old "MD vs DO" issue not apply to DO schools if they have serious reservations about osteopathic medicine. Some premeds are very status conscious and end up being very frustrated that osteopathic medicine is not widely known. For some premeds, their whole goal in life is not about being an excellent physician and helping people, it is about garnering society's praise and attention that is attached to the "-MD" suffix.

I feel pretty strongly about this because I've seen time and time again that premeds who use DO schools as MD backups are never quite happy with their decision to become an osteopathic physician. Who suffers in this situation? Everyone! They're not happy. Other students find them to be tedious, humorless, and pessimistic. Moreover, I've observed in my own school that if premeds holding these attitudes do matriculate, then they usually end up being almost completely uninterested in osteopathic principles and school/professional activities. It makes for bad morale.

This is especially sad considering the keen competition for admission to medical school and the fact that every year hundreds of qualified applicants who would go onto to be great doctors and productive members of their profession are turned away.

[This message has been edited by drusso (edited 01-05-2000).]

[This message has been edited by drusso (edited 01-05-2000).]

 

[Future DOc]

AMEN FELLOWS!!!!!

TO ALL PRE-MEDS OR UPCOMING MEDICAL STUDENTS (MD or DO), still need some reassurance as to whether DOs are just as good or even better?
Click on the an attending physician's comments inside the EVERYONE File under PHYSICAN GLUT.

If you are still not convinced, then I guess ignorance is truly bliss for some people!!!

Rob
WesternU/COMP

 

[turtleboard]

I disagree that all premeds who consider MD vs. DO an issue are status-hungry power-mongers who seek nothing more than the praise of all just because of "M.D." appearing at the end of their names.

Being an MD as opposed to being a DO is as much a career decision as it is a philosophical one sometimes. I've read extensively on osteopathic medicine, have attended numerous lectures at NYCOM, and have even conversed with NYCOM faculty and students on the subject. I consider myself to be among the best-educated MD medical students on DO medicine, yet when it came down to choosing between attending an MD school and NYCOM, I chose the MD school.

I'm not the type of person who seeks the praise of all, but I am the type of person who wants a career that's as unrestricted as it is successful. I probably would've had a great career as an osteopathic physician, but I didn't want to limit myself to those areas of medicine in which DOs are a fully accepted "member of the family," so to speak. If I ever want to be a famous neurosurgeon, I don't want to be held back just because some ill-informed MD down the line is going to ask, "Exactly what the hell is a DO and can he do anything with a scalpel?" I'm not the pioneering type, and I don't intend to be the sacrificial lamb.

I'm not saying that DOs will never become neurosurgeons, or that they're relegated to fields like Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, and the like. What I am saying is that being a DO makes building a medical career that much more difficult, and I just don't have the patience for it.

I'm a huge fan of osteopathic medicine and I always will be. If I'm ever in the position of selecting physicians for training programs, I wouldn't think twice about taking a DO over an MD, but as for my MD colleagues, I can't change them.

What also tipped the balance in favor of allopathic school was I had a choice in attending a state medical school, which compared to NYCOM, is like buying a lunch at McDonald's.


Tim of New York City.

 

[Poet]

Hi Tim,

I understand where your coming from, however I just wanted to let you and everyone else know that there ARE DO's that are specializing in ALL forms of medicine now. It is NOT as segregated as people would like to think, its just that there are A LOT more MD's out there than DO's.

At the local hospital here that fosters a WONDERFUL cardiac and trauma unit, there are DO's doing their residencies in cardiology (one to be a cardiologist, and the other a cardiac surgeon) and DO's in trauma. (One that Im aware of)

The stigma is definitely not real in practice, and I know first hand that DO's are NOT looked down on by any means by either other physicians OR patients.

My cousin, who is one of the top oral surgeons in this area started his career as a dentist. This does NOT mean he is not an incredible surgeon (he does A LOT of plastic reconstructive oral surgery) because of his background, and NO ONE thinks any less of him for NOT having the letters MD after his name... I just want to reiterate that in the long run it depends on the person as to how successful they will be, not the letters

But I do hear ya Tim, and Im not debating against anything you posted

Sincerely,
poet

 

[Future DOc]

Hey Tim,

I hear where you are coming from, but did you even understand where were coming from when we wrote those previous posts. It sound like you didn't.

To make a long story short, that attitude about the DO degree being "limited" or will I have problems afterwards concerning residency could not be farther from the truth.

Let me enlighten you: there are DOs everywhere from becoming a flight surgeon to family practice. I am attending COMP & have lecturers from Loma Linda, USC, UCLA who are DO alumini. A graduate from here is a clinical professor at Yale Univ Med school, and we had a DO lecturer who is an Orthopod/Spinal Surgeon. These are not theories but hard core facts. All in all, I am just merely pointing out that DOs are just as good as MDs in the real world & they can do anything in the world of medicine. It just boils down to the individual person period, not the degree.

I have read all your comments wholeheartedly, but that is exactly the thinking that should be shaken out of the pre-med world, let alone from an actual MD student. Saying that you would think twice before taking a DO student for residency is analogous to telling your good buddy to by all means go to a foreign med school eventhough he/she got into a DO school. How cruel can you be!!!

You sound like a very intelligent individual but WAKE UP!!! Overall, pre-meds & med students (MD or DO) should be concentrating on how to become a GOOD DOCTORS, not all the other accessories. That's just silly & immature in my opinion. I hope that's why you attended med school in the first place.

Please don't get offended by remarks, but you need to check your fact sheet one more time.

Rob
WesternU/COMP Class of 2002

 

[RollTide]

hey futuredoc,

Not to jump to Tim's aid or anything but I think you misunderstood some of what he was saying. I think he posted that he would have no problem choosing a D.O. over an M.D because of his first-hand knowledge of the profession....and I agree with him in that if an applicant thinks he/she might have hang ups in choosing a speciality dominated by M.D degree holders then maybe they should look elsewhere for an education. There are plenty of us out here who take pride in our proffesion and have no problems or second thoughts about practicing in areas traditionally dominated by allopaths. Osteopathic medical school seats should be filled with students truly committed to the practice of osteopathic principles...without this there can be no true reason for two distinct degree programs...just my 2 cents

 

[carmstrong]

I don't think that was very fair to say to Tim. His comments seemed to echo the comments of many DO students on this board. I have heard several DO students suggest to premeds who had career goals in a surgical specialty to consider the MD route. After he commended the virtues of the DO philosophy, he simply stated what is a legitimate concern. If you are interested in a surgical or other specialty, you may be at a disadvantage competing against MD students b/c of biases. This does not mean that you are less qualified, but you may be less considered. You gave plenty of examples of DO's outside of family practice, but does this prove that there are no biases against them. I am not cracking at all, I am just saying that his career decision comment made some sense. I still am not sure why the reply was so snippy. Tim's comment seemed like a friendly stance, not an attack on the DO philosophy.

Scenario:
2 schools in the same state with the exact same educational standards. One of them is well known and sends several students a year to medical school. The other, is lesser known and has it's emphasis in environmental issues rather than medicine, but their pre med classes are excellent none the less. In the history of the lesser known school only a couple of kids have gone on to medical school. Where do you go? You will leave both with the same education and scores, but when it comes time to apply to med school, those from the known university have an advantage b/c of history. I know that this is weak analogy, but to me it is similar.

 

[turtleboard]

Rob,

I know that there are DOs in all areas of medicine and every scope of practice -- I never said otherwise. What I was saying, however, is that being a DO makes getting into particular training programs and being accepted by a particular group of MD physicians is difficult to say the least. Do I know of the DO at Harvard who's been professor for the past 20 years? Sure, but he's one DO of about 45,000.

I'm not trashing DOs by any means. I'm merely saying that there are premeds out there, myself included, who chose to be MDs not out of ignorance or because we didn't agree with the DO philosophy, but because we wanted careers that wouldn't be stepped on by a few ignorant MDs. It happens all the time.

You can cite DO after DO who practices cardiovascular surgery, neurosurgery, or is Chief of Staff of this and that hospital, but the fact remains that being a DO makes getting those things DIFFICULT. They do happen, but not very often and not without a ton of work.

I am enlightened about all the great DOs of our day and days past. Robert Fulford, whose book I read after reading Norman Gevitz's book, was a very influential DO. His career was incredibly successful, but you can't have a Robert Fulford all the time. Ronald Blanck, the Surgeon General of the US Army, is a DO and obviously has attained a high rank in the military. I'd describe Dr. Blanck as a very successful DO, but like Dr. Fulford, it doesn't happen everyday.

I remember flipping through some med school catalogs when I was premed, looking for the number of DOs on faculty and in what department they taught. In practically all allopathic schools, I found that there were only a handful of DOs, and practically all were in Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, or Family Practice. That's great for the aspiring IM, Peds, or FP DO who wants to get into academic medicine, but what about the DO who wants to be a neurosurgeon? There aren't many of them around, and it's unlikely that by the time I graduate from medical school, neurosurgery will have any significant increase in osteopathic surgeons.

I never said DOs aren't as good as MDs. Since when has being an internist, a pediatrician, or a family practice physician been considered as a poor career move? If that's what you want, whether you're MD or DO, that's great. I'm still not sure. I might just be an internist one day, but if I want to be a neurosurgeon, I'd like to make sure that chance is there.

As for your comment, "Saying that you would think twice before taking a DO student for residency is analogous to telling your good buddy to by all means go to a foreign med school eventhough he/she got into a DO school. How cruel can you be!!!"

I simply never said that. What I said was, "If I'm ever in the position of selecting physicians for training programs, I wouldn't think twice about taking a DO over an MD, but as for my MD colleagues, I can't change them."


Tim of New York City.

[This message has been edited by turtleboard (edited 01-06-2000).]

 

[Paul's Boutique]

Well, put, TONYC. A very balanced response to the whole DO/MD thang...

I myself have been quite defensive at times of the issue (going to school at COMP this year); it really stemmed from lower confidence in myself. I've gone and talked to DOs and MDs in the field, and most all of them (as a matter of fact, all of them) said it doesn't make a damn bit of difference... so I've calmed down.

Why would any doc (or person) disparage one or the other path of medicine? Lack of knowledge, or lack of self esteem/identity, probably. As a matter of fact, one person does come to mind.... the yahoo who runs the www.quackwatch.com site--Stephen Barrett. He makes a few good points, but tends to rant and I feel he's off-base on many issues. It's really simply his 15 mins. of fame...

 

[Future DOc]

Okay fellows, especially Tim...

Please accept my apologies if I offended or misunderstood what you were posting.

I am just saying that it really doesn't matter what's behind your name. The reason why you find more DOs in primary care is not because all of them settled for that but because MOST students who go into osteopathic schools are all primary-care oriented from the get go-they wanted to do internal med, pediatrics, family practive, etc... from the start(including myself).

If I asked a DO student what they wanted to become later and they said, "a neurosurgeon",
I would think it would be DIFFICULT because of things like poor grades, class rank, boards scores, lack of connections, poor recommendations, etc..NOT the degree. The same scenario does happen to MD students in the same situation. If an MD student with the above background applies for a neurosurgery residency slot & competes w/ a DO student w/ better scores, grades, etc...whould you still chose the MD student or the BEST PERSON for the position?

Also, the reason for not seeing a lot of DOs in certain fields is not because of discrimination, but because of quantity. Each year they are approx thousands of so DO grads as compared to quadradupled MD grads (this does not include IMGs) entering the match. Again, a lot of DOs go into primary care (thats one of the main reasons for attending a DO school) and the rest go into the other specialties. Thats the ONLY reason why you only see a few DOs-the quantity NOT discrimination!!! From what I've learned & seen, the only discrimination on DOs these days are mostly by IMGs (check the attending physicians comments in EVERYONE file under PHYSICIAN GLUT).

I am just pointing out that if you advised a pre-med to go MD if they wanted to do neurosurgery rather than DO because it would be more DIFFICULT is NOT reality. Neurosurgey or any other competitive specialties are difficult in itself if you don't prove yourself as a person (MD or DO). Remember that DOs can go into both AMA or AOA if they chose.

Overall, My main point boils down to the individual itself & how good of a doctor they can become, not the degree. That should be set in stone inside the heads of pre-meds because that is not ficiton but reality!!

Rob
WesternU/COMP Class of 2002

 

[turtleboard]

Not to beat an essentially dead horse, but I'm not so willing to believe that the MDs who think they're demi-gods in the neurosurgery departments across this nation will necessarily take the DO with better board scores, grades, recs, etc., over the MD. Is it simply because one is a DO and one is an MD? It can be, but I don't know, and I'm not about to assume. Given the impression I've received from practicing DOs, from DO stuff I've read, and the current DO climate (which comes from sources such as this forum, DOs with whom I've spoken, etc.), I can't say with good confidence that it's all peachy-keen for the DOs who want to be surgeons and train in an allopathic program.

As for the issue of DO numbers contributing to the lack of DOs I see on faculty and in certain departments, let's examine the issue in this way. If DOs make up approximately 10% of the physician workforce, then they ideally should be 10% of all medical school faculty. I don't have numbers in front of me, but I'm willing to bet big money that they don't make up 10% of med school faculty when you combine both MD and DO schools. Essentially DOs are underrepresented in academic medicine, and because DOs have enjoyed a relatively restriction-free medical practice atmosphere for the past 30 years, why haven't they taken their share of academic medicine?

I agree with you that it should come down to the ability of the individual doctor, and not the letter that lag behind his name, but that only works in an ideal world and medicine is very far from being one. Again, if it were up to me, I'd pick the best doctor and not give a second thought to whether his degree says Doctor of Medicine or Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine. Unfortunate as it may be, some people who actually have this authority discriminate simply because of a difference in one letter. You can't change that until they change.


Tim of New York City.

 

[drusso]

Tim, I never accused *you* of being status-conscious or power hungry, nor the majority of premeds. On balance, I think that the vast majority of premeds look at a whole host of variables when it comes to choosing their future schools to include geography, tuition, academic emphasis, quality of clinical training sites, reputation, etc.

I'm talking about a specific "breed" of premedical student who tends to be rather superficial in their approach to a career decision. I think that we're all pretty familiar with this kind of premed...

 

[Mayqswet]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Tim. I have been accepted to a DO school and am very excited about it. However, being from NC, I hear quite often "Be cautious about going to an Osteopathic school".

I was talking to a friend of mine this morning who used to be a physician recruiter and is now a VP at the hospital I work at in Greensboro. She "warned" me about going DO. Also, I called out internal medicine department last week and found out that we don't take DOs for residents (but we do for family practice).

The attitude here is that DOs are trained differently and, not as well as MDs. I know that's wrong, but that's what the majority of the medical/adminstrative staff believe. Luckily, I've been able to educate a few people, but if I want to come back to NC, I will probably have to go to a more progresive area like Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill or Charlotte. At UNC, the director of family practice is a DO and DOs are doing well in private practice.

The problem is that not many people know that the current level of educaiton at DO schools is very good. Until they do, as Tim said, there will be areas of discrimination, both demographic and political. It's not fair, but it's reality. Thank goodness this is not the case in areas closer to DO schools. Who knows, maybe I'll be the first DO in Greensboro.

------------------
Phillip Snider, MS, RD
UNECOM '04
Happiness isn't having what you want, it is wanting what you have.

[This message has been edited by Mayqswet (edited 01-06-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mayqswet (edited 01-06-2000).]

 

[drusso]

Tim wrote, "Essentially DOs are underrepresented in academic medicine, and because DOs have enjoyed a relatively restriction-free medical practice atmosphere for the past 30 years, why haven't they taken their share of academic medicine?"

This issue was discussed at a recent research conference I attended in Bethesda at NIH. Basically, those in the osteopathic profession interested in research met with representatives from NIH, AHCPR, and other governmental/grant awarding agencies to discuss ways to increase osteopathic participation in biomedical research, OMM research, and technology development.

The biggest barrier(s) we identified was not a lack of qualified academicians in the profession, but a lack of a "research culture" at most DO's schools. After considerable discussion and exploration, it was felt by conference participants that this was due, in large part, to a couple of factors: 1) A strong service ethic at osteopathic colleges instead of a research ethic--i.e. focusing on creating clinicians first and scientists second; 2) The effects of political hardships the profession endured in first half of the 1900's from the allopathic profession.

Recall that 1940's-1960's were the "golden years" of medical research and the vast majority of it was done at large, private, east coast institutions. When NIH started to rapidly expand, its directors and senior scientists were mostly culled from these institutions, few DO's (An exception being Murray Goldstein, DO, who trained in neurology at Mayo (among the first DO's to do so at Mayo) and was for years the chief of the section of neurobiological sciences at NIH.)) were invited to participate.

After a time at NIH, many of these physician/scientists took Deanships at MD-medical schools (of course) and helped further develop and expand their academic/research programs. The cycle is self-perpetuating. The whole scenario has less to do with actual osteopathic specific discrimination, than it does with the "country-club" atmosphere that pervaded the times. If you weren't from Hopkins, Yale, Harvard, Penn, or other "brand-name" institutions (MD or DO), then you were pretty much out in the cold.

 

[RAM#48]

I am in NC as well. I plan to return to NC for residency and afterwards also. While there are very few DO's in NC, I have not encountered the negative attitude that you mention. What I have seen is more of a general ignorance of the DO profession.

A number of medical school students I know (allopathic) have worked with DO's and they have all had positive things to say.

I am not sure of any residency differences at Carolinas Medical Center in Charlotte so far as DO/MD. I find the fact that Greensboro (Moses Cone?) discriminates amongst tracks very wierd. At CMC there is a family practice resident (NYCOM) and a trauma surgeon (PCOM I think).

Just my two cents, but I would not label Charlotte as progressive. Politics are generally pretty conservative. However, it is a large city with lots of opportunities.

Chapel Hill, while the most liberal mecca in possibly the entire world (Just go to Pepper's Pizza) is a prototypical conservative academic medical center. There is one DO on the family practice staff full time and other part time.

 

[RollTide]

Just to be informational...D.O. students are by no means hurting for residency slots. Because you all seem to feel that neurosurgery is the oasis of all that is sacred I will attempt to make a poor generalization. There are approximately 30 slots in neurosurgery offered by AOA approved residency programs this year with less than half of them being filled. My only point is that I think if the AOA envisioned a greater interest by way of these slots being filled that the AOA would take action and attempt to approve more positions so that D.O. students could match or pursue the specialty of their choice. D.O. students (who score well on boards and the like) should have no problem matching into a residency of their choice no matter the specialty. The problem the AOA has is in convincing osteopathic grads to take these empty positions and not pursuing ACGME slots instead. No need to worry about discrimination if your DME is a D.O. or a M.D. with experience in training D.O. students.....second issue...academic medicine..the answer involves the overwhelming majority of osteopathic colleges being private schools with no dual(D.O./Ph.D)programs involving extensive research. Another reason is that osteopathy all along has attempted to occupy a unique niche in society by providing care to populations whom are underserved. Many of these populations are in rural America away from the large academic institutions. For those of you interested in AOA approved residency programs and have not looked into them yet-
http://opportunities.aoa-net.org/residencies/residency.htm

you find programs in everything from Anesthesiology to Urological Surgery. So fear not fellow D.O. to be, opportunities will be there for all of us that choose to take advantage of them. By the way I personally feel that Family Practice is all that is sacred.

-Joshua

 

[Mayqswet]

RAM#48,

I was thinking of Charlotte being more progressive in the growth of the city, medical centers, etc. One reason is that a friend of mine sent me the recent article on DOs in the Observer. I guess this led me to believe that Charlotte is more progressive.

I was also surprised (and disappointed) to find out that Moses Cone doesn't take DOs for IM residency. When I talk to individual MDs here, the attitude is about 60% positive, 30% indifferent and 10% negative. It's the "higher-ups" that have come across as negative. My friend who used to be physician recruiter made it seem like it's the problem of breaking into the good-ole-boy scene and the posturing that goes on between large practice groups that requires them to display what they believe to bethe top image. Too bad they don't know what a valuable resource they're missing out on.

But, who knows what it will be like in 4 years.

Where are you working now?

Email me sometime: [email protected]


------------------
Phillip Snider, MS, RD
UNECOM '04
Happiness isn't having what you want, it is wanting what you have.

 

[DOPhD student]

Thank you Tim of New York for pointing out how difficult it would be for future DOs. I guess all of us DOs are just dying to be neurosurgeons. Come on, wake up and smell the coffee already. Premeds who claim to be neurosurgeons are just dreaming. They don't even know what the field encompasses, but I suspect "neurosurgeon" is a cool word. Then again, if they're dead set later to become neurosurgeons, who's to say they have to get ACGME-training to become competent surgeons? Did somebody already say that many AOA neurosurgery slots remain unfilled? A fact which testifies that in the end only a tiny fraction of DO graduates want to do neurosurgery. On the other hands, a significantly higher proportion of MD graduates want high-profile competitive subspecialty residencies such as orthopaedic surgery or neurosurgery so that you're only humoring yourself if you think the "MD" degree makes it easy for an MD graduate to compete. And by the way, if he cannot successfully compete for ACGME-approved slots, he's not eligible to apply for AOA-approved slots either so the discrimination seems to work in reverse, doesn't it? It's quite interesting how you patronize the DO profession by saying again and again how you think the DO and the MD professions are equal. Thank you very much. I don't think the DO profession needs justification from the MD profession, and DO students don't need your praise or approval and certainly not your repeated concerns about how difficult life would be. Finally, Tim, please don't think that I have anything against the MD profession by what I'm saying. I think it's a wonderful, noble, and progressive profession. I just have a thing against somebody like yourself who sits around and predicts doom and gloom for others even though he's barely got his feet wet in medical school. Good luck all the same though.

 

[turtleboard]

I only used neurosurgery as an example of a field that a DO student would find somewhat difficult to break into, not because he's incompetent or he's a lesser physician, but because of things beyond his control (ignorant MDs who may not view him as equal simply because of his DO). Maybe it is discrimination or maybe it's something else. I don't know.

What I am saying, and what others on this forum agree with, is that it is difficult for a DO graduate to train in certain programs. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less.

AOA-approved programs do exist, and there are, as you said, a bunch of unfilled neurosurgery slots. Does this necessarily support your claim that "only a tiny fraction of DO graduates want to do neurosurgery?" Nope.

And if you have evidence that "a signficantly higher proportion of MD graduates want high-profile comeptitive subspecialty residencies such as orthopaedic surgery or neurosurgery . . . " I'd like to see it. Current statistics show that over 50% of MD graduates today go into primary care training (IM, Peds, Psych, FP, OB/GYN), compared with a little more than 60% of DO graduates.

You remind me of a professor at an osteopathic school I visited who was lecturing to a class of medical students. He incessantly put the allopathic profession down, calling MDs "pill-pushers" and saying that MDs are guilty of "not knowing one damn thing about medicine." DOs, according to Gevitz, were found by one study to prescribe more medication than MDs.

I've said time and again that there are MDs that are so ultra-ignorant and arrogant that they would say or do something to belittle a DO. We attribute that MD's comments to his ignorance. But when I hear a DO say the same thing about an MD, to what do we attribute that behavior? Here's a hint: it can't be ignorance.

I personally take offense to your saying that I'm patronizing the osteopathic profession, and I don't believe you would've said that if I wasn't an allopathic medical student. If anything's an example of reverse-discrimination, you've just provided it. Thank you for showing how certain members of the osteopathic profession, such as yourself, are just as scornful of MDs as some MDs are of DOs.


Tim of New York City.

[This message has been edited by turtleboard (edited 01-07-2000).]

 

[Future DOc]

Okay fellows....

"Step away from the keyboard & drop the Chalupa!" J/J

This discussion is starting to get shady & personal. "Can't we all just get along!!"

Point well taken by all of you!!! Let's just end the MD vs DO war right now!!

Peace, love, & happiness to all my medical collegues!

Rob
WesternU/COMP Class of 2002

 

[DOPhD student]

I'm afraid you got me mistaken with somebody else because I've never once said MDs are pill pushers. I wholeheartedly believe in the merits of appropriate medication. You may not have realized you're doing it, but know that the act of patting somebody on the back and saying "you're okay" is really patronizing when the person to whom you're doing so knows that he's actually better than you. That's my point. Don't take offense to what I'm saying but the fact remains DOs are trained in certain things MDs are not. In general, DOs can replace MDs but MDs cannot replace DOs. Then why should DOs be or act apologetic for being knowledgable in a field most MDs are ignorant of? Last, I said it before, I have absolutely nothing against the MD profession. That's the profession that I knew and embraced first (and I still do because the reality is medicine is medicine no matter if you call it allopathy or osteopathy), and to which my cousins, sister, mother, several aunts and uncles belong. There's just no reverse-discrimination here at all. I'd be glad to work side by side with MDs, but not in the future with someone like yourself who pats me on my back and says incessantly that I'm good enough but I should watch out for this imaginary glass ceiling. Thanks for your concerns and warning, but should I encounter one in my career, I'll just have to break right through it. Attitude is everything and negativity is nothing but an annoyance.

 

[turtleboard]

OK.


Tim of New York City.

 

[Paul's Boutique]

Yeah, drop the chalupa, guys! Go outside and play, for crying out loud...

 

[Deb]

I think a few of you have a little too much time on your hands! Once you get into the
meat and potatoes of med school you'll realize this argument is dead and burried. From
what I've seen, the only docs who still have a problem with DOs are old timers and a few
elitist DMEs. I've had MD attendings in nearly every rotation and I've yet to encounter
any problems or negative attitudes. This also holds true for the residency programs I've
contacted. So lighten up already!

Deb
MS-3

 

[turtleboard]

The misconception here with this thread is that it's the typical MD vs. DO war. It's not. Nothing was ever said that hasn't been said before regarding residency choices between MDs and DOs.

It only started to seem like a war when I was told that my posts were "patronizing" the osteopathic profession, something which I still haven't fully realized.


Tim of New York City.

 

[tonydtgr]

Can't we all just get along?
🙂

 

[turtleboard]

That's what this entire community is about -- getting along!

Tim of New York City.