LUCOM standards

[freak7]

This is the literal definition: the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices.

That's a "literal definition" from a dictionary which serves more as a description. A definition defines the word and doesn't just describe a characteristic of a word. For example, another religion that fits that description would be the imaginary "Church of Jesus of Nazareth Wasn't a Person and Didn't Teach and we Don't Follow Christianity's Beliefs or Practices". Does it seem curiously based on Jesus? Totally. Does it focus on the beliefs and practices? Totally, since they have to be aware of them to avoid them. Is it a denomination of Christianity? I wouldn't say so. ∴ That's a bad definition.

Edit: punctuation.

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[freak7]

That would be the greatest ruling ever. "Well gg. Religious freedom, go kill your kid", like wow would the entire courtroom be blown away lol

Statement of The Court as Written by The Ghost of Antonin Scalia:
"GG ez. I'm going to go haunt stuff now."

 

[MaximusD]

Because there are plenty of Christian's who think mormons are Christian. As they should, becaise mormons are most definitely Christian.



Not if they signed a contract, which I don't know if they do or not. But I would also like to point out that Loma Linda has the same rules and hasn't had any issues.

So they enforce the rules? Doubtful.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I have to be honest, I get you keep saying people signed the code or "honor code" or whatever it is, but the point is, I think it's ridiculous that they are trying to regulate your sex life. I get if they said "you can't drink in public" or "can't have sex in public", okay that's fair. But you can't have sex in your room even if it doesn't hurt anyone? Just because a rule exists doesn't make it right in any way, shape or form. I hope LUCOM isn't this bad because that is a disgrace for a medical school.

The whole point is that they are based on religious belief. Loma Linda has the same rules. Many religions have components of chastity and view sex outside of marriage as breaking God's law in some form or another, and it has nothing to do with trying to rule your life.

Please do not feel any further need to tell me that if I don't like it, then I shouldn't go there since I haven't stated that I like or dislike the code

I should have specified that is more a general comment for everyone who complains about it yet applies there anyway. It wasn't directed at you really, more the thread as a whole.

XCOM has an extremely large donor base and can stay afloat without receiving a penny from the state or federal governments. Said religion values human sacrifice and decides to make students sign an honor code where they sacrifice their firstborn. One student decides to not sacrifice his firstborn and brings the case to court. Do you believe that the court would say "Well gg. Religious freedom, go kill your kid"? In fact human sacrifice was explicitly referred to in Reynolds as an example of a rule that the Court would not want to be protected seeing as the First Amendment only applies to the belief and not

That is a bad example because everyone tends to agree that killing another person is bad, and it is explicitly illegal. That is different than any university saying they want their students to not drink alcohol, and make it against the honor code.

What does matter is the fact that LUCOM is not immune to litigation on the sole basis that the students signed an honor code or that it is a private religious institution.

I guess I should have specified that such a trial will not win. People can sue all they want and bring litigious claims forward and even go to court, but these types of claims never really get very far.

That's a "literal definition" from a dictionary which serves more as a description. A definition defines the word and doesn't just describe a characteristic of a word. For example, another religion that fits that description would be the imaginary "Church of Jesus of Nazareth Wasn't a Person and Didn't Teach and we Don't Follow Christianity's Beliefs or Practices". Does it seem curiously based on Jesus? Totally. Does it focus on the beliefs and practices? Totally, since they have to be aware of them to avoid them. Is it a denomination of Christianity? I wouldn't say so. ∴ That's a bad definition.

Edit: punctuation.

How would you define Christianity then?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

So they enforce the rules? Doubtful.

Doubtful? They do enforce it actually, they just have few issues because most of their student body is Adventist. The people applying there know the rules and are ready to live by them.

 

[freak7]

How would you define Christianity then?

The religion that believes:
1) Yahweh exists
2) Yahweh is supreme
3) Jesus existed
4) Jesus was the son of Yahweh
5) Jesus was the Messiah

I may have missed a really obvious necessary condition in there but you get the point. A definition needs to be unambiguous and applicable to only the thing it is defining.

 

[freak7]

That is a bad example because everyone tends to agree that killing another person is bad, and it is explicitly illegal. That is different than any university saying they want their students to not drink alcohol, and make it against the honor code.

It's a bad example if I were applying it to LUCOM, which I deliberately stated I wasn't. My point wasn't that it directly compares, my point was that ∃ a set S := {rules | all elements of set can be challenged and won in court if included in an honor code}. We agree that the set is non-empty because we just agreed that "kill your firstborn" ∈ S. As I have said before, I have not stated my opinion on LUCOM's policy, I'm merely trying to show you that honor codes are still subject to rule of law.

 

[LutGholein]

make students sign an honor code where they sacrifice their firstborn

But do they get to match into a Derm spot guaranteed?
This would change the nature of this contract.

 

[Foreveryours91]

The code of conduct on paper is the same as the UG institution, but they are not enforced. I do not know how heavily it is enforced for the undergraduate institution because I never attended there as an undergrad. But I have spoken to several LUCOM students and the staff of LUCOM and according to them "the medical students are grown adults and professionals, as long as they are not wearing their LUCOM shirt with 20 shots in a bar they are fine". I will be attending there this year, and no it was not my only acceptance, and no I am not religious, but it is close to home. After doing my own research I decided that LUCOM would be the best osteopathic school to attend. I guess I'll be able to tell you (OP) how strict it is there after I attend and if my impression of the school was correct.

 

[freak7]

The code of conduct on paper is the same as the UG institution, but they are not enforced. I do not know how heavily it is enforced for the undergraduate institution because I never attended there as an undergrad. But I have spoken to several LUCOM students and the staff of LUCOM and according to them "the medical students are grown adults and professionals, as long as they are not wearing their LUCOM shirt with 20 shots in a bar they are fine". I will be attending there this year, and no it was not my only acceptance, and no I am not religious, but it is close to home. After doing my own research I decided that LUCOM would be the best osteopathic school to attend. I guess I'll be able to tell you (OP) how strict it is there after I attend and if my impression of the school was correct.

That's... a lot of shots

 

[Foreveryours91]

That's... a lot of shots

It is haha. Basically I think they were saying to follow professional etiquette. Which is interesting because ARCOM gave me a similar example too when I asked them the same question... Must be the go to example.

 

[freak7]

It is haha. Basically I think they were saying to follow professional etiquette. Which is interesting because ARCOM gave me a similar example too when I asked them the same question... Must be the go to example.

At least 19 shots is ok.

 

[getfat]

That's... a lot of shots

Some people call it taking communion.

 

[freak7]

Some people call it taking communion.

I guess that's one way to meet God

 

[theunderdoc]

.

 

[3member]

very interesting thread...

 

[JB50]

Mainstream Protestants are also fine with evolution. It's the evangelicals and Southern Baptists who make the biggest stink about literalism, to the point of corrupting public education and trying to break the wall between Church and State.

You know, the same people who voted for a lying, adulterous, prideful, gluttonous guy who made his fortunate running gambling emporiums?

Bill Clinton?

 

[breezy1245]

Do LUCOM students pray before coming onto SDN? Serious question.

 

[JB50]

Do LUCOM students pray before coming onto SDN? Serious question.

Huh?

 

[breezy1245]

Huh?

...huh what? Was my post not clear?

 

[KaapstadMK]

Well, dammit. I probably shouldn't have mentioned that I was a Catholic during my interview then . I have a feeling that that may have been the dagger, despite their "open minded-ness to other beliefs."

Oh well.

Nope. Currently at LUCOM and we have plenty of catholic students, not to mention Mormons, Muslims, and Hindus

 

[KaapstadMK]

I actually don't know a single Christian who considers the church of LDS to be a part of their Christian faith...

Bingo!

Some very crucial doctrinal differences

 

[KaapstadMK]

How would you define Christianity then?

A good place to start would be the Nicene Creed.

 

[NurWollen]

A good place to start would be the Nicene Creed.

So none of the original 12 apostles, or Paul, or any of the authors of the new testament were Christians, since they all predate the Nicene creed?

Lol, can't believe I'm involved in this discussion. On SDN, of all places.

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[NurWollen]

DISCLAIMER: I have not stated my opinion on LUCOM's honor code, positive or negative. Please do not feel any further need to tell me that if I don't like it, then I shouldn't go there since I haven't stated that I like or dislike the code (IIRC)


Of course I can't provide that information as the only cases against them are currently in the courts. See: Baylor, BYU-H.

I feel like you're missing the forest for the trees though. IMHO Reynolds applies to honor codes. It's pretty easy to see how an honor code could go awry. For example (keep in mind this is an example and I am not saying that LUCOM's rules are or are not anywhere near this crazy, I'm just trying to show you): Let's say XCOM is a private religious institution. XCOM has an extremely large donor base and can stay afloat without receiving a penny from the state or federal governments. Said religion values human sacrifice and decides to make students sign an honor code where they sacrifice their firstborn. One student decides to not sacrifice his firstborn and brings the case to court. Do you believe that the court would say "Well gg. Religious freedom, go kill your kid"? In fact human sacrifice was explicitly referred to in Reynolds as an example of a rule that the Court would not want to be protected seeing as the First Amendment only applies to the belief and not necessarily the practice.

You keep taking the side that since it's a private religious institution it can have whatever provisions it wants in its honor code and the courts would always rule in their favor but that is just false. Is LUCOM's honor code crossing a legal line? Maybe, I don't know. That's why I haven't stated my opinion on the matter. What does matter is the fact that LUCOM is not immune to litigation on the sole basis that the students signed an honor code or that it is a private religious institution. LUCOM may be immune litigation against its honor code because of other reasons, but as I said in a previous post, you're arguing the wrong things and that's what I take issue with.

People always make up dumb, extreme examples like this in these discussions. The truth is, there is no religion anywhere that runs an accredited school that advocates human sacrifice, so it's a dumb example. You could take either side of any debate and come up with an extreme, fictional example that would make the other side like ridiculous.

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[TX_AK]

Many of them have a problem with Mormons. I can tell you this from personal experience.

Seen this be very vicious. It always seems that those who are against others "sects" of Christianity tend to focus on the small differences, not the large similarities that should draw Christians together. It is ok to disagree with someone.

 

[freak7]

People always make up dumb, extreme examples like this in these discussions. The truth is, there is no religion anywhere that runs an accredited school that advocates human sacrifice, so it's a dumb example. You could take either side of any debate and come up with an extreme, fictional example that would make the other side like ridiculous.

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Oh goodness this thread got resurrected.

All I was trying to do was advocate for a more conservative usage of words like "anything" or "whatever". Words have meanings. It all could've been avoided if they had even just used the word "nearly" in front of "whatever" in the post that started this whole thing. Given I was being a bit pedantic and I do apologize for that. I could've used a much less extreme example sure, but I wanted it to be as ethically clear-cut example.

Please read this post for the point of the argument:

It's a bad example if I were applying it to LUCOM, which I deliberately stated I wasn't. My point wasn't that it directly compares, my point was that ∃ a set S := {rules | all elements of set can be challenged and won in court if included in an honor code}. We agree that the set is non-empty because we just agreed that "kill your firstborn" ∈ S. As I have said before, I have not stated my opinion on LUCOM's policy, I'm merely trying to show you that honor codes are still subject to rule of law.

 

[YummyOstrich]

Hello,

I'm currently a Liberty student. The code of conduct (The Liberty Way) is definitely for everyone affiliated with Liberty, even if they're just an employee. With that being said, it really isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Scriptures are incorporated into the curriculum, usually at the start or finish of a lecture. Someone usually says a quick prayer before class starts. There are rarely any faith based assignments. It's a legitimate medical school and if you can appreciate or tolerate those things then it'll be a great fit for you. It's also very possible to go to Liberty and do whatever you like. There is plenty of premarital sex and drinking going on here and it is easy to find. Nobody is going to hover over you and make sure you're going to church and following all the rules, especially if you live off campus, which you should be doing anyway. People will generally only find themselves in trouble if they've already done something illegal (Like a DUI or sexual assault) or if they're doing something dumb like getting rowdy drunk in a restaurant that isn't a bar, and it's across the street from campus, and all while wearing a LUCOM hoodie. In that case a faculty member from the religion department might confront you. Just be professional and respectful in the community and you can still have fun.
You can see the actual rules here www.liberty.edu/media/1210/Student_Honor_Code.pdf

 

[ChosenBrotherRaoh]

LUCOM is just a weird school. The post below is totally NOT a LUCOM employee.

Hello,

I'm currently a Liberty student. The code of conduct (The Liberty Way) is definitely for everyone affiliated with Liberty, even if they're just an employee. With that being said, it really isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Scriptures are incorporated into the curriculum, usually at the start or finish of a lecture. Someone usually says a quick prayer before class starts. There are rarely any faith based assignments. It's a legitimate medical school and if you can appreciate or tolerate those things then it'll be a great fit for you. It's also very possible to go to Liberty and do whatever you like. There is plenty of premarital sex and drinking going on here and it is easy to find. Nobody is going to hover over you and make sure you're going to church and following all the rules, especially if you live off campus, which you should be doing anyway. People will generally only find themselves in trouble if they've already done something illegal (Like a DUI or sexual assault) or if they're doing something dumb like getting rowdy drunk in a restaurant that isn't a bar, and it's across the street from campus, and all while wearing a LUCOM hoodie. In that case a faculty member from the religion department might confront you. Just be professional and respectful in the community and you can still have fun.
You can see the actual rules here www.liberty.edu/media/1210/Student_Honor_Code.pdf

 

[YummyOstrich]

LUCOM is just a weird school. The post below is totally NOT a LUCOM employee.

No, I'm just an undergrad student who is very familiar with LUCOM and the associated graduate programs in the building. I'll be honest in saying our biomedical science smp and school of public health are a total joke and you'd be better off elsewhere. I would only attend if I didn't get in somewhere else. I think we have quality faculty at the medical school though. I believe that soon enough it will be top notch though, just like everything else Jerry Fallwells money touches. It seems like every semester they lighten up on the code of conduct too. A lot of people have an issue with how relaxed it's becoming. Jerry wants us to be the christian equivalent to notre dame and I'll be darned if it doesn't seem like he isn't willing to blow every dollar the school makes doing so.

 

[KaapstadMK]

No, I'm just an undergrad student who is very familiar with LUCOM and the associated graduate programs in the building. ... I think we have quality faculty at the medical school though. ... It seems like every semester they lighten up on the code of conduct too.

Here's the thing, the LUCOM code of conduct is a little closer to the old undergrad one, minus the restriction on R-rated movies. We still have a dress code (a la professionalism). Is it as strictly enforced as the old undergrad code was, no. The school treats us like mature professionals. Are there students having extramarital sex? I don't really know. Do students drink? Some do, but I have yet to see one post publicly about doing so or getting drunk. Do students use drugs? I know of one or two who smoke, but aside from that, I doubt many med students, especially those in my class do.

So, sure, people break the code, but we also agreed to follow it and we understand the ultimate goal of professionalism. So, we do our best to honour it.

And yes, we have good quality faculty here, many of whom have taken a pay cut to come, because they agree with the ethos and philosophy of the school

 

[YummyOstrich]

Here's the thing, the LUCOM code of conduct is a little closer to the old undergrad one, minus the restriction on R-rated movies. We still have a dress code (a la professionalism). Is it as strictly enforced as the old undergrad code was, no. The school treats us like mature professionals. Are there students having extramarital sex? I don't really know. Do students drink? Some do, but I have yet to see one post publicly about doing so or getting drunk. Do students use drugs? I know of one or two who smoke, but aside from that, I doubt many med students, especially those in my class do.

So, sure, people break the code, but we also agreed to follow it and we understand the ultimate goal of professionalism. So, we do our best to honour it.

And yes, we have good quality faculty here, many of whom have taken a pay cut to come, because they agree with the ethos and philosophy of the school

As of this past fall R rated movies and M rated video games are approved under the Liberty Way. The new entertainment rules only applies to NC-17 and X rated movies, and A rated video games. The main thing to keep in mind is that if you are off campus then you won't have an RA assigned to you, so you can generally do what you like if you aren't acting a fool. That being said, Liberty students are generally a class of people who don't mind the rules because they wouldn't want to do those things anyway. In the end the rules are really only there for your own success.