Doximity Compensation Report 2018

[trev5150]

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Retirement typically refers to things like 401k contributions, which are also cash compensation.

401K/403B is not part of your take home and is not taxed as such. Employee contribution is pre-tax and lowers your tax liability. Employer match goes directly into the 401K account. If you access it earlier than age 59.5 it's taxed as income plus a 10% penalty, or you can actually take out low interest rate loans against it. So while technically compensation it's not exactly "cash in hand".

 

[Fission Chips]

Typically MGMA, AMGA, etc include all total cash compensation, but not benefits.

So your Salary+Bonuses or just your take home pay over the year (whether that's RVU based, eat what you kill, salary, or whatever). So if I make $220,000 salary, plus a $10,000 bonus, and benefits worth $50,000, it would list my compensation as $230,000.

The doximity #s are inflated relative to any other survey I'm aware of (MGMA, AGMA, Sullivan Cotter, Medscape, etc), likely due to sample bias, but probably by not much more than 10% or so.

Quick question: With regards to "take home pay", we are still paying 30-40 percent in taxes on these numbers though right? So that $230k compensation is closer to 150k of actual earnings, correct?

I'm used to talking about "take home pay" as what I actually see hit my bank account (after taxes have been pulled), hence the confusion.

 

[trev5150]

Quick question: With regards to "take home pay", we are still paying 30-40 percent in taxes on these numbers though right? So that $230k compensation is closer to 150k of actual earnings, correct?

I'm used to talking about "take home pay" as what I actually see hit my bank account (after taxes have been pulled), hence the confusion.

Yep. And then there's your student loan payments on top of that.

Source: businessinsider.com

 

[Raryn]

401K/403B is not part of your take home and is not taxed as such. Employee contribution is pre-tax and lowers your tax liability. Employer match goes directly into the 401K account. If you access it earlier than age 59.5 it's taxed as income plus a 10% penalty, or you can actually take out low interest rate loans against it. So while technically compensation it's not exactly "cash in hand".

I know what 401k contributions are. But it's still $ that increases my net worth. Unlike say, health insurance (which is not included in the MGMA definition of total compensation)

 

[trev5150]

...But it's still $ that increases my net worth...

Yeah that's definitely true.

 

[jw3600]

This is a silly statement.

Judging by incorrect generalizations combined with a lack of knowledge of what each specialty can do, I'd say a pre-med.

Seriously. What a goober.

 

[RTD]

Quick question: With regards to "take home pay", we are still paying 30-40 percent in taxes on these numbers though right? So that $230k compensation is closer to 150k of actual earnings, correct?

I'm used to talking about "take home pay" as what I actually see hit my bank account (after taxes have been pulled), hence the confusion.

This is even more important for the higher salaries. In a state like california, the effective tax rate is like 40% so its important to consider if the marginal increase in salary is actually worth the extra effort you are putting in.

 

[jw3600]

This is even more important for the higher salaries. In a state like california, the effective tax rate is like 40% so its important to consider if the marginal increase in salary is actually worth the extra effort you are putting in.

No. This is a classic mistake. More money is more money.

 

[RTD]

No. This is a classic mistake. More money is more money.

No I know you will always make more money, that was not my point. What I am saying is that your salary will not be increasing as much as you think it will when you are potentially taking on more responsibilities.

 

[libertyyne]

This is even more important for the higher salaries. In a state like california, the effective tax rate is like 40% so its important to consider if the marginal increase in salary is actually worth the extra effort you are putting in.

Probably need to find a better accountant .

 

[Anti-PD1]

Seems about right.

A lot of us in the training process are used to being around academic docs. There's a whole PP world out there, though it's shrinking.

My goal would be to be privademic.

 

[Anti-PD1]

Yep. And then there's your student loan payments on top of that.

Source: businessinsider.com

This... makes me sad.

 

[trev5150]

This... makes me sad.

Maximizing 401k/403b contributions and good planning does take some of the sting out. I was making 150k+ a year in the defense world and getting taxed as a single filer on primary income as well as rental property income x2 and still able to make this career change at 43.

Side note, per your avatar - STILLERS!

 

[DrfluffyMD]

come on dude. this is just a lazy perspective. the two specialties operate on very different spectrums of disease.

Let me know when the gastroenterologists at your institution can take out a gallbladder, fix a perforated ulcer, or fix a strangulated hernia with their endoscopes.

Also Are you aware that general surgeons also do plenty of procedures utilizing EGD and colonoscopy?

A surgeon can do everything a GI can do procedural wise endoscopically or surgically.

A GI cannot do surgery.

Honestly, GIs are too dependent on ONE procedure for its reimbursement. If that goes (like fecal DNA test), GI goes.

 

[Raryn]

A surgeon can do everything a GI can do procedural wise endoscopically or surgically.

A GI cannot do surgery.

Honestly, GIs are too dependent on ONE procedure for its reimbursement. If that goes (like fecal DNA test), GI goes.

Procedurally wise, probably a surgeon *could* do anything a GI can, but I've never heard of a general surgeon doing ERCP or EUS. Also, if I needed endoscopy, I'd prefer the guy who does 10 of them a week to the guy who was trained how to do them years ago but spends most of his time operating.

The medical side of GI management is a different story. I mean, I suppose a surgeon could learn how to medically manage IBD... but I doubt they would want to.

The professions are complementary, and in the real world (outside of SDN...), they typically get along just fine.

 

[Anti-PD1]

The professions are complementary, and in the real world (outside of SDN...), they typically get along just fine.

This is true for the MD v DO, NP v Physician, CRNA v Gas, CT v Cardio etc. debates. It's the SDN effect.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Depends on the health care system really. There are still a lot of turf war out there

 

[Lovestudying]

I will say with confidence that this data is accurate. I make the average they claim in one of those top 10 cities and I started recently.

 

[TrueConjecture]

I will say with confidence that this data is accurate. I make the average they claim in one of those top 10 cities and I started recently.

So n=1 now translates to generalizability nationwide?
Got it.

 

[Gurby]

not to mention that outside the inconvenience of prep, a colonoscopy is a gold standard test that is extremely safe. How will a blood test or advanced CT scan tell you there’s a 3 mm polyp and that it’s in XYZ area if he sigmoid colon.

Just a humble M1 opinion, but I think anything we can apply deep learning to is in danger.

A few studies have come out over the past 1-2 years that seem to show reasonably high sensitivity and specificity for capsule endoscopy interpreted by a deep learning algorithm. Very easy to envision a world where instead of a colonoscopy every 5 years, you swallow a capsule once per year and the computer interprets it, with a GI just signing off to verify the computer's interpretation. I can't fathom a world where pure screening colonoscopies continue to be the moneymaker they apparently are right now.

 

[anbuitachi]

the compensations above seem somewhat accurate. But dont be too focused on those numbers, its not as good as it seems. Dont forget you had a VERY late start. Other high paying fields are MILLIONS of dollars ahead of you when you start working. You will be playing catchup for a long time after residency.
Those types of numbers are easily seen in other high paying fields as well that doesn't require as much training as we do.

Below is an example of corporate law firm salary. 180k starting BEFORE bonus and retirement. By year 8 you are making 315K + bonus + retirement/benefits. Note law school is only 3 years long. So by the time you finish your general surgery residency, they'd be already starting their year 7 and making 300k+/yr. They wouldve already worked 6 years and made 1.3M. And of course as a doctor, unless you become the leader of your field, you are essentially capped in salary. Not so much for any other fields. Become a partner in law firm and you can see your salary balloon to millions/yr. Same in finance and tech industry by moving up the ladder. In medicine its not happening unless you become CEO of your hospital or is some famous proceduralist/surgeon which is exceedingly rare.

 

[anbuitachi]

Just a humble M1 opinion, but I think anything we can apply deep learning to is in danger.

A few studies have come out over the past 1-2 years that seem to show reasonably high sensitivity and specificity for capsule endoscopy interpreted by a deep learning algorithm. Very easy to envision a world where instead of a colonoscopy every 5 years, you swallow a capsule once per year and the computer interprets it, with a GI just signing off to verify the computer's interpretation. I can't fathom a world where pure screening colonoscopies continue to be the moneymaker they apparently are right now.

True but it will probably take a while. A lot of things don't make sense in the world of medicine and insurance. A colectomy for a severely inflammed colon in patient with IBD can take several hours and is life altering/saving. Meanwhile it pays way less than a few hr long spine surgery for a patient with back pain that doesn't even have good data to be beneficial and is definitely not life saving

 

[Ho0v-man]

Shouldn’t the real takeaway here be that physician compensation is awesome so just do what you want?

 

[Scrubs101]

Shouldn’t the real takeaway here be that physician compensation is awesome so just do what you want?

thats about what i got from it 🙂

 

[zanzizic]

I'm kind of surprised that Houston supposedly pays pretty well for primary care providers seeing as how it has the Texas Medical Center and around 4 med schools. I figured the market would be saturated.

The reason is that your average suburban patient with good insurance would much rather go to a private practice primary care provider than to the Texas Medical Center or any of the med schools.

Why? Convenience. Their PP doc is a 10 minute drive and you park in his nice parking lot and walk into his quiet waiting room that is filled with other respectable suburbanites. The Texas Medical Center on the other hand is way across town and you have to navigate an enormous parking garage and walk through numerous connected buildings to the primary care pavilion. There, you take a seat in a room that is half filled with Medicaid patients with questionable hygiene. Later, before seeing the doctor you might get prodded by a medical student and an intern.

Private patients mostly avoid medical centers and teaching hospitals unless they have some really rare disease.

In case you meant that the multiple med schools were saturating the city with new grads, the truth is most newly minted docs get the hell out of Houston ASAP when the finish training.

 

[anbuitachi]

Shouldn’t the real takeaway here be that physician compensation is awesome so just do what you want?

Nah its too low. Do the math and you'll see its not worth it. I never recommend to anyone to go into medicine for the money so i tell people to dont even look at it. The reason is because the average medical student start med school at age 24. Then theres 4 year med school, 3-7 years of residency. 0-3 years of fellowship. And this is assuming you dont take off any years to do research to boost residency or fellowship chances, you are looking at getting a real job at age 31 earliest (on avg), and that's for primary care. Its pretty sad that most med students are pretty illiterate financially. By then you are 10 years behind the other top students from college who went to tech/finance. That's 10 years the salary compounding with interest, plus you are 200k in debt growing with 6+% interest. Also as a primary care physician, your salary is pretty flat. There aren't many promotions at all to boost your salary. Unless something major happens with insurance payments (which is unlikely to go up), you'll be making a similar pay for the rest of your career, while others go up in money. Meanwhile you are still working long hours and many holidays. Obviously it's a generalization, but the money in medicine is not great considering how late you start and how many more hours you work. When considering money, its the net career income per hour. I always tell people if hypothetically people have to train for job XYZ til age 70, then makes 2 million dollars a year. Sure your average salary per year is going to be 2m/yr, the highest of any profession, but it doesn't matter, cause half of that will go to tax, and you only have so many years left to work before you drop dead/retire. People are so focused on large numbers that they fail to see behind it

A clear example of this is NP vs primary care MD. NP work 40 hrs a week and make 120k, the MD works 60 hrs a week and make 200k. The NP started working much earlier in life, and does not have 200k in debt. Most people will just look at the raw number, and think the MD is much wealthier than the NP when its just not true.

Obviously its all relative. if your goal as a physician to have enough money to have a place to live and afford food daily, then it'll be more than enough..

But this is exactly the reason why I hate it when the media publicize doctors salaries, because the public doesnt understand anything about math, or the hours we put in, and the next thing you know there'll be riots about how greedy doctors are and should all receive lower salaries

 

[Scrubs101]

Nah its too low. Do the math and you'll see its not worth it. I never recommend to anyone to go into medicine for the money so i tell people to dont even look at it. The reason is because the average medical student start med school at age 24. Then theres 4 year med school, 3-7 years of residency. 0-3 years of fellowship. And this is assuming you dont take off any years to do research to boost residency or fellowship chances, you are looking at getting a real job at age 31 earliest (on avg), and that's for primary care. Its pretty sad that most med students are pretty illiterate financially. By then you are 10 years behind the other top students from college who went to tech/finance. That's 10 years the salary compounding with interest, plus you are 200k in debt growing with 6+% interest. Also as a primary care physician, your salary is pretty flat. There aren't many promotions at all to boost your salary. Unless something major happens with insurance payments (which is unlikely to go up), you'll be making a similar pay for the rest of your career, while others go up in money. Meanwhile you are still working long hours and many holidays. Obviously it's a generalization, but the money in medicine is not great considering how late you start and how many more hours you work. When considering money, its the net career income per hour. I always tell people if hypothetically people have to train for job XYZ til age 70, then makes 2 million dollars a year. Sure your average salary per year is going to be 2m/yr, the highest of any profession, but it doesn't matter, cause half of that will go to tax, and you only have so many years left to work before you drop dead/retire. People are so focused on large numbers that they fail to see behind it

A clear example of this is NP vs primary care MD. NP work 40 hrs a week and make 120k, the MD works 60 hrs a week and make 200k. The NP started working much earlier in life, and does not have 200k in debt. Most people will just look at the raw number, and think the MD is much wealthier than the NP when its just not true.

Obviously its all relative. if your goal as a physician to have enough money to have a place to live and afford food daily, then it'll be more than enough..

But this is exactly the reason why I hate it when the media publicize doctors salaries, because the public doesnt understand anything about math, or the hours we put in, and the next thing you know there'll be riots about how greedy doctors are and should all receive lower salaries

Agreed that the public and many pre-meds have a very misconstrued view of doctors salaries. I know very well that my GF who works in tech will have a 401k substantially larger than mine even though at face value a doctors salary is much larger, the years of compound interest my friends who got full time 70k+ (100-120k in 5-10yrs) jobs working 40hrs a week at the age of 21 will outdue most docs pulling 300k by the age of 31 working 50-60ish hours a week paying 300k+6-8%interest on loans and putting down 15+% into retirement.

However i dont think that’s what @Ho0v-man was getting at. At least not how i interpretted it. I’ll be happy if i can live comfortably, enjoy my job, and be able to pay off my debt. Realistically, all specialties of medicine afford that previlage. So choose based on what you actually enjoy and want to do, not what will pay off debt the quickest. Thats all IMO and how i interpreted his comment tho, obviously if your life will only be fulfilled by ferraris and yatchs then aim for those specialties at the tops of those charts. Or if you want to be extremely well off and have cush hours...go for derm. I acknowledge that theres many things that go into specialty decisions (and on medicine in general) besides pure interest in the specialty itself.

I hope none of us chose medicine because we thought it was the quickest way to put a few mil in the retirement plan. Because if so, you choose poorly lol.

 

[W19]

@Scrubs101

Your friends are among the lucky ones because most people out of college don't start out making 70k/yr... ~ a 3rd of the country has a baccalaureate degree and <10% of the US population make 100k/yr. Not saying that it's impossible for people to do well, but what your friends are making after 5 yrs is not typical for the average Joe with a bacc or even a master degree.

I am not saying physicians have it great either

The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?

 

[Scrubs101]

@Scrubs101

Your friends are among the lucky ones because most people out of college don't start out making 70k/yr... ~ a 3rd of the country has a baccalaureate degree and <10% of the US population make 100k/yr. Not saying that it's impossible for people to do well, but what your friends are making after 5 yrs is not typical for the average Joe with a bacc or even a master degree.

I am not saying physicians have it great either

The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?

I agree, but all of us here had the resources and intelligence to attend undergrad/ choose whatever other moderately attainable lucrative field. I'm not comparing physicians vs average American, I would say given the resources/intelligence/will power/etc that most of us have in order to get into medical school most of the people in medical school could have probably entered a field with a starting salary 60k+ had they chosen to.

I am by no means stating the average American will out earn a physician, that would be absurd. Financially it's not the best gig, but it's definitely still a great one. Not to mention the job security aspect, I have friends that have snagged great jobs only to be randomly laid off and having to start from scratch. As a physician thats something you hardly have to worry about, if you get fired theres plenty of other job openings with similar salaries available if youre not super picky. That can't be said about most of these other lucrative fields.

 

[W19]

I agree, but all of us here had the resources and intelligence to attend undergrad/ choose whatever other moderately attainable lucrative field. I'm not comparing physicians vs average American, I would say given the resources/intelligence/will power/etc that most of us have in order to get into medical school most of the people in medical school could have probably entered a field with a starting salary 60k+ had they chosen to.

I am by no means stating the average American will out earn a physician, that would be absurd. Financially it's not the best gig, but it's definitely still a great one. Not to mention the job security aspect, I have friends that have snagged great jobs only to be randomly laid off and having to start from scratch. As a physician thats something you hardly have to worry about, if you get fired theres plenty of other job openings with similar salaries available if youre not super picky. That can't be said about most of these other lucrative fields.

I got that you were not saying that, but I just wanted to put things into perspective...

As far as being a physician 'is not the best gig', that is up for debate...

 

[Ho0v-man]

Nah its too low. Do the math and you'll see its not worth it. I never recommend to anyone to go into medicine for the money so i tell people to dont even look at it. The reason is because the average medical student start med school at age 24. Then theres 4 year med school, 3-7 years of residency. 0-3 years of fellowship. And this is assuming you dont take off any years to do research to boost residency or fellowship chances, you are looking at getting a real job at age 31 earliest (on avg), and that's for primary care. Its pretty sad that most med students are pretty illiterate financially. By then you are 10 years behind the other top students from college who went to tech/finance. That's 10 years the salary compounding with interest, plus you are 200k in debt growing with 6+% interest. Also as a primary care physician, your salary is pretty flat. There aren't many promotions at all to boost your salary. Unless something major happens with insurance payments (which is unlikely to go up), you'll be making a similar pay for the rest of your career, while others go up in money. Meanwhile you are still working long hours and many holidays. Obviously it's a generalization, but the money in medicine is not great considering how late you start and how many more hours you work. When considering money, its the net career income per hour. I always tell people if hypothetically people have to train for job XYZ til age 70, then makes 2 million dollars a year. Sure your average salary per year is going to be 2m/yr, the highest of any profession, but it doesn't matter, cause half of that will go to tax, and you only have so many years left to work before you drop dead/retire. People are so focused on large numbers that they fail to see behind it

A clear example of this is NP vs primary care MD. NP work 40 hrs a week and make 120k, the MD works 60 hrs a week and make 200k. The NP started working much earlier in life, and does not have 200k in debt. Most people will just look at the raw number, and think the MD is much wealthier than the NP when its just not true.

Obviously its all relative. if your goal as a physician to have enough money to have a place to live and afford food daily, then it'll be more than enough..

But this is exactly the reason why I hate it when the media publicize doctors salaries, because the public doesnt understand anything about math, or the hours we put in, and the next thing you know there'll be riots about how greedy doctors are and should all receive lower salaries

I guess that’s a good warning for a premed who’s only applying to med school bc he/she thinks white coat=$. But considering almost everyone reading this thread is a med student it’s not going to make us all suddenly drop out bc the pay isn’t worth it. Like scrubs101 said, I was pointing out that as med students we shouldn’t be afraid of not making enough. If anyone got into this for money theyre dumb.

 

[Scrubs101]

I got that you were not saying that, but I just wanted to put things into perspective...

As far as being a physician 'is not the best gig', that is up for debate...

I said it was financially not the best gig, which is easily provable taking the average physician salary, average age of first year of attendinghood, average indebtedness, average age of retirement and comparing net-profit by the time of retirement. Any job that pays more than that would be a "financially better gig", and there are plenty. Now if you wanted to say no other job would offer you the ability to do X or the fulfillment by doing Y, then I would agree with that as there are other unique attributes to the job besides money that drew us all to it. I would also agree a great potential debate could be what's more attainable, a non-physician job that pays 70K+ right out of college with the potential to earn 100k/yr in 5-10yr or making it through the ringer to become a physician. But strictly by the #s it's very clear that being a physician is "not the best gig" financially speaking, but mostly just because speaking in absolutes it's tough and I could list of several rare jobs that earn more than docs even though getting those jobs wouldn't be realistic.

 

[W19]

I said it's up for debate. Of course, there are people out there that have jobs with good salary/job security/great lifestyle etc... But how easy to get these jobs is a topic for another discussion...

When people out of college start making 60k/yr, most of them change their lifestyle... They don't want to rent out a room from an average person; they don't want have a roommate... They don't want to drive that 2000 Toyota Corolla... They want to have their own apartment; they want to have nicer car etc... They are eating out more often. 60k/yr is not bad for a 22-23/yr old but it does take them that far in term of having a lot of room to invest/save...

 

[Gurby]

I would be a terrible businessperson or lawyer, but give me a standardized multiple choice science test and boy howdy!

 

[aafisahar]

Today I learned that America only has 50 "metro areas"

50 is a huge stretch. There's like 20 and the rest are just small cities with a couple suburbs vying to be called a metro area. Places like Cleveland, Cincinnati, San Antonio, Kansas City, Louisville, Oklahoma City, Birmingham, aren't places people usually associate with desirable cities. They easily make the top 50.

Here is the list of top 50 metro areas by population.

1 New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA 19,006,798 18,323,002 3.7
2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA 12,872,808 12,365,627 4.1
3 Chicago-Joliet-Naperville, IL-IN-WI 9,569,624 9,098,316 5.2
4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX 6,300,006 5,161,544 22.1
5 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD 5,838,471 5,687,147 2.7
6 Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX 5,728,143 4,715,407 21.5
7 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL 5,414,772 5,007,564 8.1
8 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA 5,376,285 4,247,981 26.6
9 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV 5,358,130 4,796,183 11.7
10 Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH 4,522,858 4,391,344 3.0
11 Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI 4,425,110 4,452,557 -0.6
12 Phoenix-Mesa-Glendale, AZ 4,281,899 3,251,876 31.7
13 San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA 4,274,531 4,123,740 3.7
14 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA 4,115,871 3,254,821 26.5
15 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA 3,344,813 3,043,878 9.9
16 Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI 3,229,878 2,968,806 8.8
17 San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA 3,001,072 2,813,833 6.7
18 St. Louis, MO-IL 2,816,710 2,698,687 4.4
19 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL 2,733,761 2,395,997 14.1
20 Baltimore-Towson, MD 2,667,117 2,552,994 4.5
21 Denver-Aurora-Broomfield, CO 2,506,626 2,179,240 15.0
22 Pittsburgh, PA 2,351,192 2,431,087 -3.3
23 Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA 2,207,462 1,927,881 14.5
24 Cincinnati-Middletown, OH-KY-IN 2,155,137 2,009,632 7.2
25 Sacramento--Arden-Arcade--Roseville, CA 2,109,832 1,796,857 17.4
26 Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH 2,088,291 2,148,143 -2.8
27 Orlando-Kissimmee-Sanford, FL 2,054,574 1,644,561 24.9
28 San Antonio-New Braunfels, TX 2,031,445 1,711,703 18.7
29 Kansas City, MO-KS 2,002,047 1,836,038 9.0
30 Las Vegas-Paradise, NV 1,865,746 1,375,765 35.6
31 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA 1,819,198 1,735,819 4.8
32 Columbus, OH 1,773,120 1,612,694 9.9
33 Indianapolis-Carmel, IN 1,715,459 1,525,104 12.5
34 Charlotte-Gastonia-Rock Hill, NC-SC 1,701,799 1,330,448 27.9
35 Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, VA-NC 1,658,292 1,576,370 5.2
36 Austin-Round Rock-San Marcos, TX 1,652,602 1,249,763 32.2
37 Providence-New Bedford-Fall River, RI-MA 1,596,611 1,582,997 0.9
38 Nashville-Davidson--Murfreesboro--Franklin, TN 1,550,733 1,311,789 18.2
39 Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis, WI 1,549,308 1,500,741 3.2
40 Jacksonville, FL 1,313,228 1,122,750 17.0
41 Memphis, TN-MS-AR 1,285,732 1,205,204 6.7
42 Louisville/Jefferson County, KY-IN 1,244,696 1,161,975 7.1
43 Richmond, VA 1,225,626 1,096,957 11.7
44 Oklahoma City, OK 1,206,142 1,095,421 10.1
45 Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT 1,190,512 1,148,618 3.6
46 New Orleans-Metairie-Kenner, LA 1,134,029 1,316,510 -13.9
47 Buffalo-Niagara Falls, NY 1,124,309 1,170,111 -3.9
48 Birmingham-Hoover, AL 1,117,608 1,052,238 6.2
49 Salt Lake City, UT 1,115,692 968,858 15.2
50 Raleigh-Cary, NC 1,088,765 797,071 36.6

 

[aafisahar]

the compensations above seem somewhat accurate. But dont be too focused on those numbers, its not as good as it seems. Dont forget you had a VERY late start. Other high paying fields are MILLIONS of dollars ahead of you when you start working. You will be playing catchup for a long time after residency.
Those types of numbers are easily seen in other high paying fields as well that doesn't require as much training as we do.

Below is an example of corporate law firm salary. 180k starting BEFORE bonus and retirement. By year 8 you are making 315K + bonus + retirement/benefits. Note law school is only 3 years long. So by the time you finish your general surgery residency, they'd be already starting their year 7 and making 300k+/yr. They wouldve already worked 6 years and made 1.3M. And of course as a doctor, unless you become the leader of your field, you are essentially capped in salary. Not so much for any other fields. Become a partner in law firm and you can see your salary balloon to millions/yr. Same in finance and tech industry by moving up the ladder. In medicine its not happening unless you become CEO of your hospital or is some famous proceduralist/surgeon which is exceedingly rare.

No one getting that job unless they go to a T14 law school. The average lawyer makes about what a PGY3 with decent moonlighting can make.

 

[Raryn]

50 is a huge stretch. There's like 20 and the rest are just small cities with a couple suburbs vying to be called a metro area. Places like Cleveland, Cincinnati, San Antonio, Kansas City, Louisville, Oklahoma City, Birmingham, aren't places people usually associate with desirable cities. They easily make the top 50.

Here is the list of top 50 metro areas by population.

1 New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA 19,006,798 18,323,002 3.7
2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA 12,872,808 12,365,627 4.1
3 Chicago-Joliet-Naperville, IL-IN-WI 9,569,624 9,098,316 5.2
4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX 6,300,006 5,161,544 22.1
5 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD 5,838,471 5,687,147 2.7
6 Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX 5,728,143 4,715,407 21.5
7 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL 5,414,772 5,007,564 8.1
8 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA 5,376,285 4,247,981 26.6
9 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV 5,358,130 4,796,183 11.7
10 Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH 4,522,858 4,391,344 3.0
11 Detroit-Warren-Livonia, MI 4,425,110 4,452,557 -0.6
12 Phoenix-Mesa-Glendale, AZ 4,281,899 3,251,876 31.7
13 San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA 4,274,531 4,123,740 3.7
14 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA 4,115,871 3,254,821 26.5
15 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA 3,344,813 3,043,878 9.9
16 Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, MN-WI 3,229,878 2,968,806 8.8
17 San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA 3,001,072 2,813,833 6.7
18 St. Louis, MO-IL 2,816,710 2,698,687 4.4
19 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL 2,733,761 2,395,997 14.1
20 Baltimore-Towson, MD 2,667,117 2,552,994 4.5
21 Denver-Aurora-Broomfield, CO 2,506,626 2,179,240 15.0
22 Pittsburgh, PA 2,351,192 2,431,087 -3.3
23 Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro, OR-WA 2,207,462 1,927,881 14.5
24 Cincinnati-Middletown, OH-KY-IN 2,155,137 2,009,632 7.2
25 Sacramento--Arden-Arcade--Roseville, CA 2,109,832 1,796,857 17.4
26 Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor, OH 2,088,291 2,148,143 -2.8
27 Orlando-Kissimmee-Sanford, FL 2,054,574 1,644,561 24.9
28 San Antonio-New Braunfels, TX 2,031,445 1,711,703 18.7
29 Kansas City, MO-KS 2,002,047 1,836,038 9.0
30 Las Vegas-Paradise, NV 1,865,746 1,375,765 35.6
31 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara, CA 1,819,198 1,735,819 4.8
32 Columbus, OH 1,773,120 1,612,694 9.9
33 Indianapolis-Carmel, IN 1,715,459 1,525,104 12.5
34 Charlotte-Gastonia-Rock Hill, NC-SC 1,701,799 1,330,448 27.9
35 Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, VA-NC 1,658,292 1,576,370 5.2
36 Austin-Round Rock-San Marcos, TX 1,652,602 1,249,763 32.2
37 Providence-New Bedford-Fall River, RI-MA 1,596,611 1,582,997 0.9
38 Nashville-Davidson--Murfreesboro--Franklin, TN 1,550,733 1,311,789 18.2
39 Milwaukee-Waukesha-West Allis, WI 1,549,308 1,500,741 3.2
40 Jacksonville, FL 1,313,228 1,122,750 17.0
41 Memphis, TN-MS-AR 1,285,732 1,205,204 6.7
42 Louisville/Jefferson County, KY-IN 1,244,696 1,161,975 7.1
43 Richmond, VA 1,225,626 1,096,957 11.7
44 Oklahoma City, OK 1,206,142 1,095,421 10.1
45 Hartford-West Hartford-East Hartford, CT 1,190,512 1,148,618 3.6
46 New Orleans-Metairie-Kenner, LA 1,134,029 1,316,510 -13.9
47 Buffalo-Niagara Falls, NY 1,124,309 1,170,111 -3.9
48 Birmingham-Hoover, AL 1,117,608 1,052,238 6.2
49 Salt Lake City, UT 1,115,692 968,858 15.2
50 Raleigh-Cary, NC 1,088,765 797,071 36.6

There's a good number of cities in the 30-50 group on that list I'd rather live in compared to the 1-20.

 

[zanzizic]

50 is a huge stretch. There's like 20 and the rest are just small cities with a couple suburbs vying to be called a metro area. Places like Cleveland, Cincinnati, San Antonio, Kansas City, Louisville, Oklahoma City, Birmingham, aren't places people usually associate with desirable cities.

Pretty snobby. So 21-50 have 2.5 million down to 1 million residents and you don’t consider those metro areas? Ummm...ok. Millions of people live in those cities and find them highly desirable. Your opinion is just that. Not everyone is only happy in NY, LA, San Fran or Chicago.

 

[anbuitachi]

No one getting that job unless they go to a T14 law school. The average lawyer makes about what a PGY3 with decent moonlighting can make.

It's much harder to do so beyond t14 but not impossible. Just harder. I have friends in corporate law who went to below t14 schools. Also don't forget getting into law school is mostly a LSAT thing. It's a lot less complicated than getting into med school. And the avg GPA for top 14 is comparable to med school. NYU is 3.8 and Cornell 3.7 . I went to an avg med school and even then the avg GPA was 3.8. not saying any MD can get into a good law school but they def gave a good chance

 

[TrueConjecture]

Classic SDN assumption:
"If I went into ANY high caliber field other than medicine, I would have immediately risen to the top and been guaranteed a very high salary until I retired."

Don't be fooled. I find this especially true when you see the people from your high school and college classes carrying around LinkedIn profiles with titles like "Global Head Executive Manager of International Corporate Communication Data Analytics" or whatever. It's not statistically possible for everyone you know to be a high roller. Odds are they are making half of that Peds ID salary you just saw on the infographic.

 

[W19]

Classic SDN assumption:
"If I went into ANY high caliber field other than medicine, I would have immediately risen to the top and been guaranteed a very high salary until I retired."

Don't be fooled. I find this especially true when you see the people from your high school and college classes carrying around LinkedIn profiles with titles like "Global Head Executive Manager of International Corporate Communication Data Analytics" or whatever. It's not statistically possible for everyone you know to be a high roller. Odds are they are making half of that Peds ID salary you just saw on the infographic.

My guess is these statements are mostly coming from traditional students...

 

[SuaveCardigans]

Classic SDN assumption:
"If I went into ANY high caliber field other than medicine, I would have immediately risen to the top and been guaranteed a very high salary until I retired."

Don't be fooled. I find this especially true when you see the people from your high school and college classes carrying around LinkedIn profiles with titles like "Global Head Executive Manager of International Corporate Communication Data Analytics" or whatever. It's not statistically possible for everyone you know to be a high roller. Odds are they are making half of that Peds ID salary you just saw on the infographic.

theres no way I could stay mentally engaged enough with a finance/IT career to be a big shot. that crap is too boring to me, medicine is actually pretty freakin cool in that regard

 

[ILikeFood]

I think the theme that other people financially have it better than us is overblown and minimizes the struggle it takes to reach the positions they do. I don't think my friends in their own high earning or high power positions thought that those positions were a given with enough hard work and networking. The money in medicine can be enough, if you let it. I also love the fact that when I have a bad day, I can call up another hospital without any prior connections at all and be offered an interview, when in other fields in may take months of daily email blasting your resume to secure an interview much less a job. The investment banking analogy is often used here. Yes the people at the top of IB make a lot of money however think about the path to the top: Is an analyst doing the same thing as a VP? Is the VP doing the same thing as a managing director? Is the managing director doing the same thing as the CEO? No, you have to learn the ropes each time you move up, and the higher you go the less people are needed for any particular position and the more competitive it gets, AND you don't climb that ladder working a 40 hour week. I can tell you with certainty that that is not a race I'd want to run.

 

[anbuitachi]

Classic SDN assumption:
"If I went into ANY high caliber field other than medicine, I would have immediately risen to the top and been guaranteed a very high salary until I retired."

Don't be fooled. I find this especially true when you see the people from your high school and college classes carrying around LinkedIn profiles with titles like "Global Head Executive Manager of International Corporate Communication Data Analytics" or whatever. It's not statistically possible for everyone you know to be a high roller. Odds are they are making half of that Peds ID salary you just saw on the infographic.

Classic SDN mistake... not realizing that other professions can make more than doctors over their career despite earning less per year than doctors. And I keep saying this but to get into medical school, you pretty much have to be either smart or hardworking or both. Those types of traits go a long way in other fields as well, and making money these days for these type of people is easier than people think in high paying fields. This may not have been true in the past, but in the past couple decades, tech has been so hot, they are legit handing out huge salaries and they are always in demand for smart/hardworking people. I have numerous friends who had similar GPA as I did from college, transferred into a tech field after college. Just look at how many computer programming boot camps there are today, its a large business and successful as well. You dont need talent to be hired as a programmer, you just need to learn it. There's such a shortage that you'll find a well paying job.

I must say , the average I am seeing among my friends is 1 promotion every 3 years in finance in the first decade post college.

And once again, play with your calculators, do some math

A 20% retirement saving rate on a 100k salary starting at 22 yrs old gets you 7M by 67 with the usual growth assumptions. A 20% retirement on 200k salary starting at age 32 gets you 6M by 67. And don't forget the higher tax brackets and 200k debt you have to pay off. It's not about the annual salary, it's about the net career income..

 

[Esquire]

the compensations above seem somewhat accurate. But dont be too focused on those numbers, its not as good as it seems. Dont forget you had a VERY late start. Other high paying fields are MILLIONS of dollars ahead of you when you start working. You will be playing catchup for a long time after residency.
Those types of numbers are easily seen in other high paying fields as well that doesn't require as much training as we do.

Below is an example of corporate law firm salary. 180k starting BEFORE bonus and retirement. By year 8 you are making 315K + bonus + retirement/benefits. Note law school is only 3 years long. So by the time you finish your general surgery residency, they'd be already starting their year 7 and making 300k+/yr. They wouldve already worked 6 years and made 1.3M. And of course as a doctor, unless you become the leader of your field, you are essentially capped in salary. Not so much for any other fields. Become a partner in law firm and you can see your salary balloon to millions/yr. Same in finance and tech industry by moving up the ladder. In medicine its not happening unless you become CEO of your hospital or is some famous proceduralist/surgeon which is exceedingly rare.

Having been on both sides, I can say medicine is much, much easier. In law, you take call q1. Those billion dollar deals ain’t gonna close themselves and you can’t imagine the pressure and micromanaging from the partners, bankers, businesspeople. Multiply that by 2 because you have to deal with the opposing side’s lawyers, bankers, businesspeople.

In medicine, you deal with the occasional cranky nurse, patient, or admin. If a crumping patient dies, no big deal unless gross negligence is involved. No one gets super upset because death is part of the game, and sad to say, life is cheap. What is the average med mal payout for death? A few mil, covered by insurance anyway? You're not gonna get fired. It’s a joke. Semi-competent docs who have multiple disciplinary issues and barely speak English can still get hired and make decent money, or even hang out a shingle and get patients from day 1. In law, you are expected to be perfect and available at all times when your firm charges $1000 an hour for each partner and $500 an hour for each associate, plus expenses.

Less than a fraction of 1% make partner at the large firms. To keep making the big bucks, the path is to go to a smaller firm and make partner there by bringing in clients. Most doctors would never make in law because they don’t have the entrepreneurial and social skills to cultivate business. See how businesspeople and insurance, aided by lawyers, run all over doctors like anesthesiologists, ED docs, etc. and pimp them out. The money in law is good though. It allowed me to switch to med without worry. I didn't switch for money, I switched for the nice lifestyle in medicine.

 

[anbuitachi]

theres no way I could stay mentally engaged enough with a finance/IT career to be a big shot. that crap is too boring to me, medicine is actually pretty freakin cool in that regard

Except that's the point. You do not have to be anywhere CLOSE to be a big shot to save more over your career. Medicine may seem really cool to you now, but realize 45% of doctors are dissatisfied with their work. Medicine may be cool, but is doing paperwork and arguing with insurance cool to you too? Hope so. But anyway, entry level jobs (Software engineer 1) at most places get you about 100k+ after bonus, and that's age age 21/22 when you graduate college. It only goes up from there as you get promoted. There was just an article out about how microsoft employees believe they are underpaid. My friend who started at microsoft is making ~130k after bonus as the lowest ranked software engineer. And they do not have 200k debt. Do the math.

I think the theme that other people financially have it better than us is overblown and minimizes the struggle it takes to reach the positions they do. I don't think my friends in their own high earning or high power positions thought that those positions were a given with enough hard work and networking. The money in medicine can be enough, if you let it. I also love the fact that when I have a bad day, I can call up another hospital without any prior connections at all and be offered an interview, when in other fields in may take months of daily email blasting your resume to secure an interview much less a job. The investment banking analogy is often used here. Yes the people at the top of IB make a lot of money however think about the path to the top: Is an analyst doing the same thing as a VP? Is the VP doing the same thing as a managing director? Is the managing director doing the same thing as the CEO? No, you have to learn the ropes each time you move up, and the higher you go the less people are needed for any particular position and the more competitive it gets, AND you don't climb that ladder working a 40 hour week. I can tell you with certainty that that is not a race I'd want to run.

Dont think it minimizes the struggle. It's just comparison. It's unfair to compare IB to MD. Both work long hours, but everyone knows IB salary blows MD out the water. There's no comparison. I dont know why when i compare MD to other fields, people are jumping to top positions.. To me , there is no comparison there. MD is far inferior in terms of money making, and that's why I dont compare MD to top positions in IB or law partners or anything like that. I'm talking about lower positions.

 

[W19]

The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?

How many times do I have to post that link for people to understand that the reality in the field (or arena) is quite different...

 

[anbuitachi]

Having been on both sides, I can say medicine is much, much easier. In law, you take call q1. Those billion dollar deals ain’t gonna close themselves and you can’t imagine the pressure and micromanaging from the partners, bankers, businesspeople. Multiply that by 2 because you have to deal with the opposing side’s lawyers, bankers, businesspeople.

In medicine, you deal with the occasional cranky nurse, patient, or admin. If a crumping patient dies, no big deal unless gross negligence is involved. No one gets super upset because death is part of the game, and sad to say, life is cheap. What is the average med mal payout for death? A few mil, covered by insurance anyway? You're not gonna get fired. It’s a joke. Semi-competent docs who have multiple disciplinary issues and barely speak English can still get hired and make decent money, or even hang out a shingle and get patients from day 1. In law, you are expected to be perfect and available at all times when your firm charges $1000 an hour for each partner and $500 an hour for each associate, plus expenses.

Less than a fraction of 1% make partner at the large firms. To keep making the big bucks, the path is to go to a smaller firm and make partner there by bringing in clients. Most doctors would never make in law because they don’t have the entrepreneurial and social skills to cultivate business. See how businesspeople and insurance, aided by lawyers, run all over doctors like anesthesiologists, ED docs, etc. and pimp them out. The money in law is good though. It allowed me to switch to med without worry. I didn't switch for money, I switched for the nice lifestyle in medicine.

I agree that for some people one may be easier than the other. For some the stress with dealing life and death is much higher than dealing with paperwork/deals. For some its the other way around. I disagree with most doctors would never make it in law. They go thru different training. And the businesspeople/insurance/lawyers run all over doctors is misleading, because the doctors have a 60 hr/week job in taking care of patients. The business/insurance people ARE doing their job by screwing over doctors for their money.

 

[anbuitachi]

The Top 1 Percent: What Jobs Do They Have?

How many times do I have to post that link for people to understand that the reality in the field (or arena) is quite different...

I would like to see their data and methodology since i'm sure we all know how bad the media is at analyzing data. It's like the legitimacy of Forbes best High school ranking list

I do see on the bottom left corner though that it says # of people with an overall income in the top 1%. Again that becomes vague when we compare fields that have high debt and late start vs other fields as I mentioned about in previous posts.

 

[TrueConjecture]

Classic SDN mistake... not realizing that other professions can make more than doctors over their career despite earning less per year than doctors. And I keep saying this but to get into medical school, you pretty much have to be either smart or hardworking or both. Those types of traits go a long way in other fields as well, and making money these days for these type of people is easier than people think in high paying fields. This may not have been true in the past, but in the past couple decades, tech has been so hot, they are legit handing out huge salaries and they are always in demand for smart/hardworking people. I have numerous friends who had similar GPA as I did from college, transferred into a tech field after college. Just look at how many computer programming boot camps there are today, its a large business and successful as well. You dont need talent to be hired as a programmer, you just need to learn it. There's such a shortage that you'll find a well paying job.

I must say , the average I am seeing among my friends is 1 promotion every 3 years in finance in the first decade post college.

And once again, play with your calculators, do some math

A 20% retirement saving rate on a 100k salary starting at 22 yrs old gets you 7M by 67 with the usual growth assumptions. A 20% retirement on 200k salary starting at age 32 gets you 6M by 67. And don't forget the higher tax brackets and 200k debt you have to pay off. It's not about the annual salary, it's about the net career income..

I bolded and underlined the key word in your response.
So can entertainers and professional athletes. And professional gamblers.