Doximity: Doctors Are Middle Class Now. Implications for Pain?

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drusso

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"Our version of the happiness ratio story is marked by decreasing outcomes (loss of prestige and declining financial reimbursements) and increasing expectations (COVID-19 pandemic and corporate medicine). And in this way, we are in the same boat as the rest of the middle class. Furthermore, there is increasing disparity among physician groups and a fracturing of the fabric of the profession as exemplified by the devaluation of primary care and the emergence of other health care professionals like PAs and NPs."

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Not a bad article. Actually speaks to a much deeper issue than merely prestige and money
 
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there is no definitive definition of middle class. it is not purely income based.

he does discuss physician burn out as an issue, but he then states the epiphany:

As a group, we have overextended ourselves while maintaining the idea that we are still part of the privileged class when we are not.

We expect that because of our investment in our education and our status as professionals, we are entitled to the lifestyle being broadcasted to us by the internet and social media. That illusion is not a realistic portrait of anyone but a small minority of the ultrawealthy who are not us.
 
An Orthopedic surgeon authoring something like this is pretty funny IMO. They’re one of like 4-6 specialties that still get paid like it’s the 1990s via ASC ownership lol
 
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but maybe that does reinforce the point that doctors are actually middle class....

if anything, ortho would be one of the last specialties to admit to such a status.
 
30% of physicians will retire in the next ten years.

Physicians are prohibited from owning hospitals.

Physicians have lost their agency and autonomy in delivering care.

Private practices continue to sell to private equity despite all the warnings. They will never love you back.

Insurance companies dictate how physicians practice medicine.

Medicare systematically pays health systems more than private practices for identical services—forcing consolidation and juicing the Vig on the SOS.

Physician burnout is at an all-time high.

The residency budget cap is stifling the growth of the physician workforce.

For over 15 years, Medicare has steadily increased payments to health systems while reducing reimbursements to individual physicians.

Since 2010, UnitedHealthcare’s stock has skyrocketed by 8,000%.

In the meantime, monthly premiums and self-funded contributions have more than doubled, and out-of-pocket expenses have quadrupled.


The only way forward is to repeal many rules and return to free enterprise:

The Stark Law, intended to prevent conflicts of interest, has stifled physician innovation and ownership in healthcare facilities.

Certificate of Need (CON) laws protect large health systems and restrict physicians from expanding their practices or opening new facilities.

The moratorium on physician-owned hospitals reduces supply of rural hospitals and keeps physicians from practicing to their full licensure.

Site-neutral payments favor health systems over private practices for the same services, driving consolidation. How does the government pay 10x more for the same?

The Balanced Budget Act caps Medicare reimbursements and limits residency training, contributing to physician shortages and burnout.

Medicare Advantage preauthorization delays and burdens increase administrative strain and reduce physician autonomy.

Antitrust laws prevent physicians from negotiating collectively, further tipping the scales in favor of large healthcare systems.

MACRA and MIPS add red tape, drowning smaller practices in reporting requirements while lowering physician compensation for those who can’t meet arbitrary metrics.

While protecting patients, the No Surprises Act gives insurance companies even more power over physician reimbursement.

The Anti-Kickback Statute restricts physicians’ ability to engage in financial ventures, even those that would benefit patient care.

When will physicians fight back?
 
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30% of physicians will retire in the next ten years.

Physicians are prohibited from owning hospitals.

Physicians have lost their agency and autonomy in delivering care.

Private practices continue to sell to private equity despite all the warnings. They will never love you back.

Insurance companies dictate how physicians practice medicine.

Medicare systematically pays health systems more than private practices for identical services—forcing consolidation and juicing the Vig on the SOS.

Physician burnout is at an all-time high.

The residency budget cap is stifling the growth of the physician workforce.

For over 15 years, Medicare has steadily increased payments to health systems while reducing reimbursements to individual physicians.

Since 2010, UnitedHealthcare’s stock has skyrocketed by 8,000%.

In the meantime, monthly premiums and self-funded contributions have more than doubled, and out-of-pocket expenses have quadrupled.


The only way forward is to repeal many rules and return to free enterprise:

The Stark Law, intended to prevent conflicts of interest, has stifled physician innovation and ownership in healthcare facilities.

Certificate of Need (CON) laws protect large health systems and restrict physicians from expanding their practices or opening new facilities.

The moratorium on physician-owned hospitals reduces supply of rural hospitals and keeps physicians from practicing to their full licensure.

Site-neutral payments favor health systems over private practices for the same services, driving consolidation. How does the government pay 10x more for the same?

The Balanced Budget Act caps Medicare reimbursements and limits residency training, contributing to physician shortages and burnout.

Medicare Advantage preauthorization delays and burdens increase administrative strain and reduce physician autonomy.

Antitrust laws prevent physicians from negotiating collectively, further tipping the scales in favor of large healthcare systems.

MACRA and MIPS add red tape, drowning smaller practices in reporting requirements while lowering physician compensation for those who can’t meet arbitrary metrics.

While protecting patients, the No Surprises Act gives insurance companies even more power over physician reimbursement.

The Anti-Kickback Statute restricts physicians’ ability to engage in financial ventures, even those that would benefit patient care.

When will physicians fight back?

Drusso for president now
 
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I don't know man. When you grow up poor as dirt, this middle class doctor life seems pretty good.

Didn't read the article, just the headline by the way.
 
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I don't know man. When you grow up poor as dirt, this middle class doctor life seems pretty good.

Didn't read the article, just the headline by the way.

I also grew up extremely poor in a small town. The doctors were among the most respected people in the community and definitely wealthier than most.

Neither applies today. I can accept the loss of income much more than the loss of respect. Never in a million years would I or anyone I grew up with, question whether or not the doctor was right or not about medical matters, or flat out refuse to follow critical recommendations from a physician.

I’m fortunate in many ways to do what I do. I help people, and I make 95% MGMA, but I wouldn’t become a physician if I was 17yrs old again.
 
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I’m fortunate in many ways to do what I do. I help people, and I make 95% MGMA, but I wouldn’t become a physician if I was 17yrs old again.

What would you do instead?
 
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I think if you guys spent more time mingling with people outside of medicine, you would find there is still tremendous respect for our profession.

It's easy to forget this when we have to work with people who wield power and have chips on their shoulder, like administrators, doctor wannabes, and others.

As for the salaries, it's an obvious and inevitable consequence of the "healthcare is a right" movement. Our system is essentially socialist with a the economics to match.
 
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on the contrary, this demotion of physician power is a natural evolution of capitalism at its worst/best, with consolidation of healthcare dollars from individual physicians to large scale corporations - hospital systems, insurance companies as the primary agents.


look at any system that is capitalist - it always comes to the same end - monopolies and large corporations end up on top. it is amazing that healthcare took this long.

just read drusso's plumber post.
 
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I think if you guys spent more time mingling with people outside of medicine, you would find there is still tremendous respect for our profession.

It's easy to forget this when we have to work with people who wield power and have chips on their shoulder, like administrators, doctor wannabes, and others.
This is so true. I was standing in line to vote yesterday for a little over an hour wearing scrubs, and multiple people approached me in such a kind, respectful manner. I hated it due to social anxiety and it was too hot outside but it was clear that there still is a huge respect for physicians among the general public.
 
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When I’m out in scrubs I pretend to be a nurse. Best of both worlds - respect and no one thinks you’ve over privileged lol
 
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I think if you guys spent more time mingling with people outside of medicine, you would find there is still tremendous respect for our profession.

It's easy to forget this when we have to work with people who wield power and have chips on their shoulder, like administrators, doctor wannabes, and others.

As for the salaries, it's an obvious and inevitable consequence of the "healthcare is a right" movement. Our system is essentially socialist with a the economics to match.

I think the general public has a fair esteem for doctors, particularly specialists. It is unfortunately our general interface is admin and insurance companies, who generally have little to no respect for us.

on the contrary, this demotion of physician power is a natural evolution of capitalism at its worst/best, with consolidation of healthcare dollars from individual physicians to large scale corporations - hospital systems, insurance companies as the primary agents.


look at any system that is capitalist - it always comes to the same end - monopolies and large corporations end up on top. it is amazing that healthcare took this long.

To me, the field is not about unfettered capitalism, rather a convoluted system of perverse incentives with some twisted government inputs that have many unintended consequences. But we see it through our own unique lenses, don’t we?

I will grant you a pure capitalist system is a poor way to deliver health care to the entire society, but the messy system we have is worse.
 
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To me, the field is not about unfettered capitalism, rather a convoluted system of perverse incentives with some twisted government inputs that have many unintended consequences. But we see it through our own unique lenses, don’t we?

I will grant you a pure capitalist system is a poor way to deliver health care to the entire society, but the messy system we have is worse.
They said Medicare would fix it.
They said Medicaid would fix it.
They said EMTALA would fix it.
They said Obamacare would fix it.
 
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Highlights​

  • Health care spending, both per person and as a share of GDP, continues to be far higher in the United States than in other high-income countries. Yet the U.S. is the only country that doesn’t have universal health coverage.
  • The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy at birth, the highest death rates for avoidable or treatable conditions, the highest maternal and infant mortality, and among the highest suicide rates.
  • The U.S. has the highest rate of people with multiple chronic conditions and an obesity rate nearly twice the OECD average.
  • Americans see physicians less often than people in most other countries and have among the lowest rate of practicing physicians and hospital beds per 1,000 population.


i dont want universal health care/single payor b/c id take home probably 25-50% less. but it is better from a public health perspective. hard to debate that at this point
 
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And yet things are better for the average person than before government intervention (in the 1960s)...

Its never been a better time to be exceptional and a worse time to be average
 
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And yet things are better for the average person than before government intervention (in the 1960s)...
Are you referring to the Vietnamese?

Federal Govt. intervened substantially in college tuition and health care, making both nearly unaffordable for the average person (without depending on govt.)

When do all these wonderful programs lead to insolvency and the demise of our nation?

7 Stunning Ways Life Was Different in the 1960s

The 1960s Versus Today **Take a walk down memory lane with a look at what things cost then versus now. - The AARP Medicare Supplement Blog
 
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Highlights​

  • Health care spending, both per person and as a share of GDP, continues to be far higher in the United States than in other high-income countries. Yet the U.S. is the only country that doesn’t have universal health coverage.
  • The U.S. has the lowest life expectancy at birth, the highest death rates for avoidable or treatable conditions, the highest maternal and infant mortality, and among the highest suicide rates.
  • The U.S. has the highest rate of people with multiple chronic conditions and an obesity rate nearly twice the OECD average.
  • Americans see physicians less often than people in most other countries and have among the lowest rate of practicing physicians and hospital beds per 1,000 population.


i dont want universal health care/single payor b/c id take home probably 25-50% less. but it is better from a public health perspective. hard to debate that at this point

You wouldn’t take home 25% less, you’d take home 75% less with socialized medicine. It’s why I can’t begin to understand why an intelligent physician would also be a democrat.
Supporting the Democratic Party is signing up for the destruction of your ability to support your family!


Check out doctor salaries in the largest economies of the EU, Germany, France, England etc.
 
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a little light reading, should take 5 mi, from 1996:


healthcare was unaffordable to the most of americans in the early 1960s and to all the elderly.



your first article seems to point to how men were primary breadearners and women needed to be married in the 1960s (and it is true - women were not allowed to have their own bank account or take out loans without a male co-signatory, and in some cases, were required to state that they did not intend to ever become pregnant before they could get a loan).

your second article is disingenuous. it compares costs now to costs back in the 1960s without including changes in the value of the dollar over time.

fwiw, $1 now is equivalent to $10.65 in 1960s. (it was $7.65 in 2020 per article). so for example that $2600 car in 1960 is, amazingly, about $27,690, close to $30,000. gas at $0.25 would be roughly equivalent to gas now at $2.66, which is what it was before trump gave Saudi Arabia the sweetheart deal of our lifetime. chicken may be cheaper (currently a whole chicken at Tops is $0.99 a pound.)


i assume you want to go back to the 60s?
 
You wouldn’t take home 25% less, you’d take home 75% less with socialized medicine. It’s why I can’t begin to understand why an intelligent physician would also be a democrat.
Supporting the Democratic Party is signing up for the destruction of your ability to support your family!


Check out doctor salaries in the largest economies of the EU, Germany, France, England etc.
i used to support my family on 1/4 of what i make now, as an ER doc.

i barely made 6 figures. many of my internal med colleagues at that time did not.
 
i used to support my family on 1/4 of what i make now, as an ER doc.

i barely made 6 figures. many of my internal med colleagues at that time did not.
upstate new york is essentially a third world country. wegman's can only take you so far
 
No democrat is going to be able to truly socialize healthcare. They can flaunt all the altruism they want, but strong industries that are very against it also line their pockets significantly. Green always wins and they all know it. Harris can try but she will fail.

I wouldn’t worry too much. No political party can really change anything that much.
 
i assume you want to go back to the 60s?
I think this was in response to my post and directed at me...

Simple answer, no not at all. The point is government intervention in many of these arenas led to outrageous cost overruns. Healthcare and Post-secondary education being two obvious examples. I'm no economist, but I have some ideas of who has the most influence over inflation.
i used to support my family on 1/4 of what i make now, as an ER doc.

i barely made 6 figures. many of my internal med colleagues at that time did not.
Doesn't this go against the point in your preceding post? Inflation numbers and value of a dollar be darned, are you more or less able to remain afloat on the median household income then or now?
 
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I think this was in response to my post and directed at me...

Simple answer, no not at all. The point is government intervention in many of these arenas led to outrageous cost overruns. Healthcare and Post-secondary education being two obvious examples. I'm no economist, but I have some ideas of who has the most influence over inflation.

Doesn't this go against the point in your preceding post? Inflation numbers and value of a dollar be darned, are you more or less able to remain afloat on the median household income then or now?
The middle class has been doomed since 1980.
 
the last post was to note that it is not all about $$$. yes, you can live a good quality of life without making oodles of money.


my main point to note is that Medicare definitely helped with those who were not able to afford healthcare - in particular the elderly.

cost overruns and money issues are not only due to Medicare. those profiting are private enterprises ie insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and healthcare systems all took advantage of the system to make money for themselves at the expense of physicians and americans.

they have also done a masterful job at convincing americans that it is Medicare and the government that is responsible all while lining their pockets.

The middle class has been doomed since 1980.
yes, exactly. since Reagan.
 
the last post was to note that it is not all about $$$. yes, you can live a good quality of life without making oodles of money.


my main point to note is that Medicare definitely helped with those who were not able to afford healthcare - in particular the elderly.

cost overruns and money issues are not only due to Medicare. those profiting are private enterprises ie insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies and healthcare systems all took advantage of the system to make money for themselves at the expense of physicians and americans.

they have also done a masterful job at convincing americans that it is Medicare and the government that is responsible all while lining their pockets.


yes, exactly. since Reagan.
Mostly agree here, will add Obamacare was about the biggest boondoggle for private insurance at the expense of taxpayers. The farce of coverage to the uninsured per unit cost is an embarrassment to all. The cost compared to any upside rates amongst the worst deals in my lifetime.
 
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Mostly agree here, will add Obamacare was about the biggest boondoggle for private insurance at the expense of taxpayers. The farce of coverage to the uninsured per unit cost is an embarrassment to all. The cost compared to any upside rates amongst the worst deals in my lifetime.
Again, that’s bc private insurance takes 1/3 of the cut.
 
The middle class has been doomed since 1980.
beetlejuice-i-just-had-the-weirdest-dream.gif
 
Absolutely. Do you see how the insurance mandate for Obamacare was a mistake now?
hard to call a wildly popular policy a "mistake". ive never been in love with the ACA, but i dont feel like it really moved the needle all that much in terms of actual physician compensation. private insurance still gets their share (and perhaps more) under obamacare. biggest difference is now essentially everyone is covered and there are no limits for pre-existing conditions. we've been over this.
 
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hard to call a wildly popular policy a "mistake". ive never been in love with the ACA, but i dont feel like it really moved the needle all that much in terms of actual physician compensation. private insurance still gets their share (and perhaps more) under obamacare. biggest difference is now essentially everyone is covered and there are no limits for pre-existing conditions. we've been over this.

Just because people like something doesn't mean it's right.
 
Just because people like something doesn't mean it's right.
true, but a weak response.

the rest of the developed world would disagree with you.

you want to loose your venom anywhere, it should start with big pharma/devices and the commercial insurance industry. with hospitals and SOS (d) a distant third
 
hard to call a wildly popular policy a "mistake". ive never been in love with the ACA, but i dont feel like it really moved the needle all that much in terms of actual physician compensation. private insurance still gets their share (and perhaps more) under obamacare. biggest difference is now essentially everyone is covered and there are no limits for pre-existing conditions. we've been over this.
The average person with employee benefits saw their actual insurance expenses skyrocket while coverage became poorer. Physicians have seen insurance mandates and administrative burden grow like a malignancy since ACA passed. (I am not pinning all of this trend on the ACA, but it sure didn't serve physicians well.)

Doubling the cost for 70% of the population to subsidize 10% of the population is terrible policy. (Arbitrary figures)
 
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true, but a weak response.

the rest of the developed world would disagree with you.

you want to loose your venom anywhere, it should start with big pharma/devices and the commercial insurance industry. with hospitals and SOS (d) a distant third
I mean do you really think the average person even knows what was in the 900 page bill that was PPACA?

It being “wildly popular” has more to do with Obama being popular than anything else.
 
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solution?

the real answer is to have crappy, very basic insurance for all like in canada or UK, but if you want an MRI tomorrow or a specialist next week or brand name drugs, you pay for a cadillac plan or out of pocket. that way, you can reduce or eliminate SOS (d) and allow medicare to remain solvent

like paying to skip the line at Disney
 
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I mean do you really think the average person even knows what was in the 900 page bill that was PPACA?

It being “wildly popular” has more to do with Obama being popular than anything else.
incorrect.

obama's been gone a while now and the general public loves the ACA -- or at least like it more than before.
 
solution?

the real answer is to have crappy, very basic insurance for all like in canada or UK, but if you want an MRI tomorrow or a specialist next week or brand name drugs, you pay for a cadillac plan or out of pocket. that way, you can reduce or eliminate SOS (d) and allow medicare to remain solvent

like paying to skip the line at Disney
I agree this is likely the most appropriate way to address things, though “Medicaid for all” doesn’t sound good to either side of the aisle, unfortunately.
 
That graph shows nearly linear growth over the last 30 years, until COVID. There’s really no change around the Obamacare implementation.
A high level discussion would probably require a deeper dive into the data, but the "slow" rollout of obamacare provisions over the 20-teens looks like an uptick in escalating costs. I don't think a reasonable person is going to argue the ACA stemmed the rising costs of healthcare, which was prominently advertised as one of it's purposes.
 
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