DPM & Ortho Fellowships - How selective?

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Carpe Phalanges

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Hello all. As the thread title suggests, just wondering if anyone could shed light on how selective fellowships are. Are they recruiting predominantly from certain residency programs, looking for certain numbers achieved in residency, going on perceived skill/knowledge-level of the applicant, etc.? Also, I've heard DPMs can occasionally match Ortho F&A fellowships. Is this accurate and, if so, how hard is it to do?

Regardless of the debate on whether it's worth it, I am currently trying to figure out how my residency selection might affect the odds of landing a fellowship post-residency, which is the impetus for the question. Thanks for the input!

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DPM matching an ortho fellowship…

AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA
 
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Also, I've heard DPMs can occasionally match Ortho F&A fellowships.

1662223654626.gif


Is this accurate

No

how hard is it to do?

It’s actually impossible
 
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Hello all. As the thread title suggests, just wondering if anyone could shed light on how selective fellowships are. Are they recruiting predominantly from certain residency programs, looking for certain numbers achieved in residency, going on perceived skill/knowledge-level of the applicant, etc.? Also, I've heard DPMs can occasionally match Ortho F&A fellowships. Is this accurate and, if so, how hard is it to do?

Regardless of the debate on whether it's worth it, I am currently trying to figure out how my residency selection might affect the odds of landing a fellowship post-residency, which is the impetus for the question. Thanks for the input!

What are they feeding students and residents nowadays? Goodness.

No, no and no. A quick Instagram/Facebook search of recent fellowship grads will
Show you most end up in a run of the mill PP job.
 
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Ok, thanks for the clarification. Not sure it required the degree of sarcasm (I was told the ortho thing by somebody else who claims to know a recent Wake Forest graduate who did it, and I've personally met an attending who did an Ortho fellowship as a DPM but it was decades ago). Either way, would anyone be willing to comment on the selectivity of fellowship? I'm not asking about fellowship outcomes, just how hard it is to land one/what is looked for.

Edit: In fact there are older threads in this very forum about DPMs occasionally going to Ortho fellowships *shrug*
DPM's Taking an AOFAS fellowship after residency?
Ortho F&A fellowships
 
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It's extremely rare but not impossible. I know a DPM who completed an AOFAS fellowship last year.

I did a fellowship and found it worthwhile from a training and professional connection perspective. Most worthwhile fellowships take residents from brand name programs.
 
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Ok, thanks for the clarification. Not sure it required the degree of sarcasm (I was told the ortho thing by somebody else who claims to know a recent Wake Forest graduate who did it, and I've personally met an attending who did an Ortho fellowship as a DPM but it was decades ago). Either way, would anyone be willing to comment on the selectivity of fellowship? I'm not asking about fellowship outcomes, just how hard it is to land one/what is looked for.

Edit: In fact there are older threads in this very forum about DPMs occasionally going to Ortho fellowships *shrug*
DPM's Taking an AOFAS fellowship after residency?
Ortho F&A fellowships
international ortho fellowships are more open to DPMs. Some orthofellowships USA take DPMs but like others said... very very rare.
Maybe youre confusing Hyers program that has both DPM and ortho fellows?

Edit might want to write off the Ilizirov fellowship....
 
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Not being sarcastic. But in terms of selectivity - most of the “name brand” programs usually select from well known programs. If you are at a VA program, slim chance. You can peruse through the ACFAS list and google search the past and present fellows to give you an idea. Again - not a hard rule but just a pattern. There are also non ACFAS fellowships too, another option. As Wasabi stated above, it can be a good avenue for more reps, more potential networking/connections - but this is also something you should be actively doing WHILE in residency (staying later to help with more cases, come in on weekends, reach to other ortho/pods in town, going to meetings etc etc). What you are willing to put into your training will reflect on the potential outcome. Too many students and residents I meet assume that if they trained at Kaiser, Legacy, Inova, MedStar, etc that they will be handed a handsome salaried job. Recent grads from top notch programs just this past July that I personally know of are mainly in PP jobs with low pay and/or doing part time at multiple jobs. There are only a finite number of open positions on popular job sites for higher paying MSG/hospital type jobs. Some recently even stated they want candidates with at least 2-3 years of work experience.
 
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I had a co resident do dror paley fellowship.
 
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I stand corrected. So one AOFAS fellowship in Las Vegas that will take a DPM. Sometimes.

I agree with others that the good podiatry fellowships are generally competitive and take fellows that did competitive/big name residency programs. That or someone at the residency program is buddies with the Fellowship director. Either way, the ones that are worth it from a training/networking standpoint (primarily just networking) are few and won’t even be an option for residency grads of certain programs.
 
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Just do a GOOD 3yr residency... you won't need a fellowship. You will be better at F&A surgery than 95% of orthos and many F&A orthos or most 'fellowship trained' DPMs are. Be grateful for that skill set.

As has been said 100x, you need to get the jobs anyways. If your residency director is so connected or you're such an ace to get an ortho or elite DPM fellowship, 99% chance that you dont need it... use that networking to just get a good job and start making $$$ and getting BC and learning billing and real world. The training wheels have to come off sometime. ;)

Podiatry fellowship is a paradox: the decent fellowships tend to pick from the programs whose grads don't need a fellowship.
 
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You will be better at F&A surgery than 95% of orthos and many F&A orthos or most 'fellowship trained' DPMs are. Be grateful for that skill set.

With all due respect, I wish pods would stop saying this crap. Not true and embarrassing.
 
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With all due respect, I wish pods would stop saying this crap. Not true and embarrassing.

It is to a degree. Ortho foot and ankle are really mediocre at forefoot. Solid at midfoot/rearfoot. Really good at ankles.

They are also very good handling trauma of foot and ankle.

But elective forefoot is a toss up for most of them.
 
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It is to a degree. Ortho foot and ankle are really mediocre at forefoot. Solid at midfoot/rearfoot. Really good at ankles.

They are also very good handling trauma of foot and ankle.

But elective forefoot is a toss up for most of them.
Yeah I think this is a fair take. Only more and more good F&A coming out too. They still aren't messing with limb salvage type stuff so that is our last surgical haven. Fortunately we have the new Texas school to train the future limb salvage warriors.
 
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Yeah I think this is a fair take. Only more and more good F&A coming out too. They still aren't messing with limb salvage type stuff so that is our last surgical haven. Fortunately we have the new Texas school to train the future limb salvage warriors.

Just wait until none of them stay in the area. Defeats the purpose of the school.

The profession would have been a lot better off if they just created a residency program near the area.
 
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With all due respect, I wish pods would stop saying this crap. Not true and embarrassing.
It's fine, but I think that the first part of what I'd said, which you clipped off on quoting, is the key: doing a good or elite DPM residency.
If you read the words I chose again, I'm not so sure you would disagree. If I would have said the blanket statement 'podiatry is better at foot/ankle surgery than orthos' or '--- better than F&A ortho,' then yeah... that's unwise and wrong. No disagreement. Good DPM program grads have a whole lot to offer, though.

It's veeery worthwhile to seek good residency training as a DPM. The training we have available is very good. It's excellent at dozens of programs present day. Only a fraction of DPMs will get that, though. It canNOT be taken somewhat for granted as it can for MDs (just get the specialty they want, and where is minor importance).

The average DPM training needs much improvement. There are many DPM programs that should not be approved and have horrific board pass rates and questionable competency in MANY aspects of F&A care - esp most surgery. That barely exists among MD/DO programs... occasional bad apple in terms of individuals, but programs are 95%+ adequate/good. That should be the "parity" goal for podiatry - not just chronologic length of residency. But for now, current and future DPM students should try to get one of the top 50% or 25% or even elite programs if they can so that they get the best skills and the most options after residency. They are lucky to have more options than past DPM school grads, but we are still light years behind MDs on that uniformity of training and competence.

The point is just that a GOOD program gives any DPM what they need... now more than ever. Fellowship for a top DPM residency program grad would just be a cap feather or possible avenue into lecture circuit or to beef CV or whatever. But their training and skill was already very fine without fellowship.

Similarly, doing a mediocre DPM residency and then a fellowship doesn't close the skill gap. That is an unfortunate and common misconception nowadays with the fellowships push. That person will still be lagging behind most good 3yr trained DPMs and most F&A orthos in skill set since their residency volume/complexity/diversity simply was not there.

I feel that's the bottom line: horse then cart. The question to primary address as a DPM is a good residency... get the best stallion you can, and the rest takes care of itself. Pod school or fellowship mean little in comparison to residency skills. It is funny to me we're worried about fellowship when some of our residencies turn out the most elite F&A surgeons on the planet, most are adequate, and others are total garbage with little but I&Ds and low volume on basic bone surgeries double and triple scrub with questionable "teaching attendings." This is where the MD programs are typically far ahead of us: fairly standard quality of residency experience, quality of overall residency teaching faculty, board pass rates. We tend to act done and over with that DPM residency training facet simply because "all residency programs are 3 year" and we're on to thinking fellowships. :unsure:
 
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A lot of fellowships are based on who you know. My co-residents would work with one attending just to get a letter of rec from him, since he's good friends with a few fellowship directors and they automatically get the spot
 
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A lot of fellowships are based on who you know. My co-residents would work with one attending just to get a letter of rec from him, since he's good friends with a few fellowship directors and they automatically get the spot

Yes fellowships are one big circle jerk. The fellowship programs only want residents from top residency programs.

I think fellowship trained podiatrists are going to be the new gate keepers of the profession and will do anything to limit 3 year trained podiatrists. Just like the older podiatrists are being treated.

The circle of podiatry carnage continues. If we can’t push around the MD/DOs we will push each other around while APRNs get a broader scope and better pay.
 
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Still think about my buddy who did a well known program and a very well known fellowship. Moved back home where a well known fellowship was and started working with them. He wanted to take people from lesser programs and make them better. But the directors wanted the big names. Great guy who wanted to help and build others but that's not the way it works.
 
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Yes fellowships are one big circle jerk. The fellowship programs only want residents from top residency programs.

I think fellowship trained podiatrists are going to be the new gate keepers of the profession and will do anything to limit 3 year trained podiatrists. Just like the older podiatrists are being treated.

The circle of podiatry carnage continues. If we can’t push around the MD/DOs we will push each other around while APRNs get a broader scope and better pay.

Then ACFAS may have to change its name as it's the main organization promoting these fellowships. Maybe American College of Fellowship Trained Foot and Ankle Surgeons (ACFTFAS)? And if you are a fellow with the college then you can put DPM, FACFTFAS after your name.
 
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With all due respect, I wish pods would stop saying this crap. Not true and embarrassing.

With all due respect, I've worked with many F&A Orthos and well trained Podiatrists are much better at bread and butter foot surgery than any Ortho I've ever seen. Trauma is one thing, but the rest?
 
With all due respect, I've worked with many F&A Orthos and well trained Podiatrists are much better at bread and butter foot surgery than any Ortho I've ever seen. Trauma is one thing, but the rest?
I've worked with many F&A Orthos that do better work than 50% of podiatrists (and I'm being generous here). Does my level 5 evidence beat yours? We have many well trained pods, but let's not pretend that you would take your family member to get their forefoot fixed from the bottom of our barrel as opposed to any foot/ankle ortho.
 
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I've worked with many F&A Orthos that do better work than 50% of podiatrists (and I'm being generous here). Does my level 5 evidence beat yours? We have many well trained pods, but let's not pretend that you would take your family member to get their forefoot fixed from the bottom of our barrel as opposed to any foot/ankle ortho.
If it came down to taking a family member to a random podiatrist or random F&A ortho I would choose the ortho.
 
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If it came down to taking a family member to a random podiatrist or random F&A ortho I would choose the ortho.

That’s because our best are equivalent, but our worst are much worse. Hence the whole topic of shutting down the pure hot garbage residency programs out there - or just call the folks that completed those programs chiropodists.
 
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I've worked with many F&A Orthos that do better work than 50% of podiatrists (and I'm being generous here). Does my level 5 evidence beat yours? We have many well trained pods, but let's not pretend that you would take your family member to get their forefoot fixed from the bottom of our barrel as opposed to any foot/ankle ortho.
Nope. I just have very different experiences than you do. Over the last ten years, I've routinely fixed some of the work of the "best F/A Orthos" in town. Atrocious stuff.

Why even bother with extreme examples? I wouldn't take my family to the bottom of the barrel Pod vs the bottom of the barrel F/A Ortho. And from what I've seen, I would not send a family member to a F/A Ortho at all. Except MAYBE in the case of a trauma where they present to the ED and are seen by a F/A Ortho. Maybe.
 
That’s because our best are equivalent, but our worst are much worse. Hence the whole topic of shutting down the pure hot garbage residency programs out there - or just call the folks that completed those programs chiropodists.
I disagree with this 100%. I've seen what F/A Ortho claim are "the best", and what we would consider our best, and the Ortho gets blown away. Their best is somewhere near our mediocre, and their worst is equivalent to ours, but take twice as long in the OR and use twice as much hardware for the same procedure. This is my experience where I practiced in VA, PA and NJ.
 
If it came down to taking a family member to a random podiatrist or random F&A ortho I would choose the ortho.

For what procedures? F&A Orthos have no idea how to do a basic Austin, correct hammertoes, do Kidner repairs, Retrocalcaneal Exostectomies, Neuroma excision, Ganglion excisions, and even some of the more basic rearfoot procedures. I've seen equally butchered jobs done by "random" F&A Orthos and Podiatrists. In residency and in my first few years of practice I taught a few F&A Orthos how to do some of these things. They were clueless as to the anatomy and the procedures.

Who are these F&A Orthos you guys hold in such high regard? I've known MANY that were all thumbs and HATED podiatrists. I don't get it.
 
Anecdote: When I worked in Philly, I was fixing a lot of the local F&A Ortho "guru's" work. He worked for a very big group. To the point that he actually called me personally, to yell at me, and told me to stop managing his patients. I told him to eff off and that I wouldn't have to "manage" his patients if he did a better job in the OR and wasn't such an extreme a-hole to patients when they questioned his work. He would not see his patients when they had a problem or had too many questions. He left that to his PAs. His work was atrocious. I continued to "manage" his patients a good bit when I left the Philly area and started working over the bridge.

Flash forward almost ten years, same guy/same group is running an Ortho residency in Southern New Jersey, and is such an extreme jerk, the hospital loses the residency because of his shenanigans. The hospital system was tired of dealing with all the complaints about him and his crap.
 
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For what procedures? F&A Orthos have no idea how to do a basic Austin, correct hammertoes, do Kidner repairs, Retrocalcaneal Exostectomies, Neuroma excision, Ganglion excisions, and even some of the more basic rearfoot procedures. I've seen equally butchered jobs done by "random" F&A Orthos and Podiatrists. In residency and in my first few years of practice I taught a few F&A Orthos how to do some of these things. They were clueless as to the anatomy and the procedures.

Who are these F&A Orthos you guys hold in such high regard? I've known MANY that were all thumbs and HATED podiatrists. I don't get it.

Agree to disagree. Even if an F&A ortho hates me, I’m still going to acknowledge their skill.
 
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For what procedures? F&A Orthos have no idea how to do a basic Austin, correct hammertoes, do Kidner repairs, Retrocalcaneal Exostectomies, Neuroma excision, Ganglion excisions, and even some of the more basic rearfoot procedures. I've seen equally butchered jobs done by "random" F&A Orthos and Podiatrists. In residency and in my first few years of practice I taught a few F&A Orthos how to do some of these things. They were clueless as to the anatomy and the procedures.

Who are these F&A Orthos you guys hold in such high regard? I've known MANY that were all thumbs and HATED podiatrists. I don't get it.

There are some truly amazing DPMs out there. There are also downright scary ones. MD training is more standardized across the board.
 
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There are some truly amazing DPMs out there. There are also downright scary ones. MD training is more standardized across the board.

I've been training residents for over 20 years. I can usually tell the first time I see them work whether they should wield a knife after they finish residency or not. Take that for what it's worth.
 
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